ROI roads better then North

MrPudding

darkman2 wrote:

They have to be resident in the state. Also Im interest to know why in the British general election citizens from the Irish Republic may not vote under any circumstances. However thats for the Politics forum.

Well duh. Of course they have to be resident. That does not stop them being British nationals.

MrP

darkman2

MrPudding wrote:

Well duh. Of course they have to be resident. That does not stop them being British nationals.

MrP

For more then 5 years.

bk

darkman2 wrote:

Maybe its time you put aside your inferiority complex and actually discussed the issue on its merits. As far as Im concerned the economy is in fine shape and at 5% growth per year I dont see any problems for the forseeable future.

That growth certainly won't last forever, all economies go through cycles, we are currently in an up cycle, but sooner or later it will cool off.

In such growth cycles it is imperative to invest as much as you can in developing the infrastructure and paying off the national debt.

By having a good infrastructure, it makes peoples lives easier during the down cycle and puts the country in a very good and competitive position for the next up cycle. Note this is why the current depression in France and Germany hasn't actually been that painful, since they have such a good infrastructure.

Ireland is no where near that yet, we have many years of large investment, such as the T21 plan and even further investments before we catch up with other modern European countries with decent infrastructure. We need to put that money into the Irish infrastructure now, while times are good, so that we will be well prepared for the down cycle.

I assume I don't need to explain why paying off the National debt during an up cycle is a good idea?

If we have any money left over from the T21 plan, then it could be invested in any of the following:

1) Extend Metro North further south to meet with DART and Metro West in a complete ring of Dublin and have them integrate with one another.

2) Extend the DART lines to more stations on the Maynooth and Kildare lines then currently planned for in T21.

3) More Luas lines, in particular to the North of the city or maybe even a third Metro line.

4) Lots more bus services and in particular more orbitals to link up with the new public infrastructure.

5) DART on Navan line.

6) Lots more investment in public transport in Cork, Galway and Limerick.

7) Lots of Country roads won't be upgraded on the T21 plan, upgrade them.

8) Move Dublin port.

In areas outside transport we should be investing in:

- Broadband enabling every home in Ireland.
- Large fibre optic links to every part of Ireland for industry
Note the North has us beat on these two with 100% BB availability.
- Digital Terrestrial TV service (again the North has this, we don't yet).
- More hospitals and more investment in the best medical gear and expertise.
- More schools and teachers.
- More investment in deprived areas with social problems.

All of these things need investment and money from the government now, we need to spend the money in Ireland now, not in the North. Maybe in 20 years from now, when we have done all of this and there isn't any major projects left, then we can look to helping the North. But we would be crazy to do it now.

MrPudding

Look. You said you doubt that British nationals could vote in Dail elections, I have shown that they can. Of course there are going to be restrictions and requirement but I think you have to agree that British nationals can infact vote in dail elections. Agreed?

MrP

darkman2

MrPudding wrote:

Look. You said you doubt that British nationals could vote in Dail elections, I have shown that they can. Of course there are going to be restrictions and requirement but I think you have to agree that British nationals can infact vote in dail elections. Agreed?

MrP

Politics forum.

darkman2

bk wrote:

That growth certainly won't last forever, all economies go through cycles, we are currently in an up cycle, but sooner or later it will cool off.

In such growth cycles it is imperative to invest as much as you can in developing the infrastructure and paying off the national debt.

By having a good infrastructure, it makes peoples lives easier during the down cycle and puts the country in a very good and competitive position for the next up cycle. Note this is why the current depression in France and Germany hasn't actually been that painful, since they have such a good infrastructure.

Ireland is no where near that yet, we have many years of large investment, such as the T21 plan and even further investments before we catch up with other modern European countries with decent infrastructure. We need to put that money into the Irish infrastructure now, while times are good, so that we will be well prepared for the down cycle.

I assume I don't need to explain why paying off the National debt during an up cycle is a good idea?

If we have any money left over from the T21 plan, then it could be invested in any of the following:

1) Extend Metro North further south to meet with DART and Metro West in a complete ring of Dublin and have them integrate with one another.

2) Extend the DART lines to more stations on the Maynooth and Kildare lines then currently planned for in T21.

3) More Luas lines, in particular to the North of the city or maybe even a third Metro line.

4) Lots more bus services and in particular more orbitals to link up with the new public infrastructure.

5) DART on Navan line.

6) Lots more investment in public transport in Cork, Galway and Limerick.

7) Lots of Country roads won't be upgraded on the T21 plan, upgrade them.

8) Move Dublin port.

In areas outside transport we should be investing in:

- Broadband enabling every home in Ireland.
- Large fibre optic links to every part of Ireland for industry
Note the North has us beat on these two with 100% BB availability.
- Digital Terrestrial TV service (again the North has this, we don't yet).
- More hospitals and more investment in the best medical gear and expertise.
- More schools and teachers.
- More investment in deprived areas with social problems.

All of these things need investment and money from the government now, we need to spend the money in Ireland now, not in the North. Maybe in 20 years from now, when we have done all of this and there isn't any major projects left, then we can look to helping the North. But we would be crazy to do it now.

Yes I know about the economic cycle. What Im saying to you is for over a decade now this country has enjoyed unprecedented growth. Throughout that period ppl were talking it down..........ohhh it wont last.......its gonna go belly up........

Wrong, the economists were wrong and the doomsday merchants were wrong. I dont see a problem here economically. Inflation is slightly higher then we would like, theres alot of borrowing going on, we have traffic problems, we have an infrastructure deficit, we have wage inflation that should be curtailed.............. BUT believe it or not they are signs of an economy in very good shape. Yes we must put in better infrastructure, which we are doing but I wish ppl would stop this begrudgery. We should be proud as a nation we can finally stand on our own to feet. Ive no problem saying that. I remember the 80s......

Victor

ardmacha wrote:

Fermanagh/Leitrim/Donegal is not the most prosperous part of the country and there is a clear case that these counties are disadvantaged to some extent by the border. There will be no reopened railways in this area!

But realise that this is because nobody lives there.

So the obvious way forward is some sort of special pleading with the EU for this region alone.

Yes, as a national park

mysterious

Darkman and ye all

Leeeettt it goooo!
It will do ya wonders:D


The M2 in Belfast is some Motorway that no where on the island can match against(note i'm trying to change the subject) I think it's the M2 anyways

it has over 8/9 lanes

darkman2

mysterious wrote:

Darkman and ye all

Leeeettt it goooo!
It will do ya wonders:D


The M2 in Belfast is some Motorway that no where on the island can match against(note i'm trying to change the subject) I think it's the M2 anyways

it has over 8/9 lanes

Change the subject?!? You mean back to what it was meant to be:D At last thank you. Yes the M2 is a very good motorway. The bridges could do with some renovation but other then that, yes a cracking road.

bk

darkman2 wrote:

Yes we must put in better infrastructure, which we are doing but I wish ppl would stop this begrudgery. We should be proud as a nation we can finally stand on our own to feet. Ive no problem saying that. I remember the 80s......

Actually, I agree, I think the economy will remain hot for at least another 3 - 5 years and after that it will stabilise (note, not go down, just stop growing so quickly) and will probably remain that way for a long while.

However the T21 plan is for the next 10 years, most of it hasn't even been started yet, we need to put all our money into the T21 plan and complete it before we even think of looking to the north. Plus I think there will be even more work to do after the T21 plan, see above, about another 5 - 10 years worth of work. So it is likely be 15 - 20 years before we catch up with the rest of Europe and then we can talk about looking at the North. But until then forget about it. Most of our money has already been allocated for projects in the south, there is nothing left for the North for at least another 15 years.

darkman2

bk wrote:

Actually, I agree, I think the economy will remain hot for at least another 3 - 5 years and after that it will stabilise (note, not go down, just stop growing so quickly) and will probably remain that way for a long while.

However the T21 plan is for the next 10 years, most of it hasn't even been started yet, we need to put all our money into the T21 plan and complete it before we even think of looking to the north. Plus I think there will be even more work to do after the T21 plan, see above, about another 5 - 10 years worth of work. So it is likely be 15 - 20 years before we catch up with the rest of Europe and then we can talk about looking at the North. But until then forget about it. Most of our money has already been allocated for projects in the south, there is nothing left for the North for at least another 15 years.

I agree but I think they will add other elements to it as the finances continue to improve. The Outer ring motorway for Dublin is very important along with the entire Metro project and the Eastern Bypass. The new Luas lines are vital aswell. In the NDP other elements were added so I think the same will probrably happen again, although NDP is still not complete.

I dont know why there are duplicate posts. Sry.

ardmacha

Originally Posted by ardmacha
Fermanagh/Leitrim/Donegal is not the most prosperous part of the country and there is a clear case that these counties are disadvantaged to some extent by the border. There will be no reopened railways in this area!
But realise that this is because nobody lives there.

Exactly, leave some of the political stuff above and look at geography. (I suspect that some of this debate has to do with the East v West stuff, in general I think development away from Dublin should be encouraged, without going mad and without neglecting the buildup of infrastructure in the East).

Back to the point, I think Donegal is the only county that has neither a railway nor a planned HQDC link on most of the route to Dublin. This is not only a question of population, Waterford has a HQDC link to Dublin planned, a much bigger city, Derry, does not.

smashey

Victor wrote:

But realise that this is because nobody lives there.Yes, as a national park

Victor, I think you will find that more people live in Donegal than most other counties. From memory, it is the sixth most populous county in the Republic.

nordydan

mysterious wrote:

Darkman and ye all

Leeeettt it goooo!
It will do ya wonders:D


The M2 in Belfast is some Motorway that no where on the island can match against(note i'm trying to change the subject) I think it's the M2 anyways

it has over 8/9 lanes

Yes paid for by all NI citizens, including my relations taxes. where is there anywhere near an equivalent outside belfast? There isnt even DC to derry past randalstown (barring the very recent toomebridge bypass).

The point I would like to emphasise is that where it MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL to both parts the Irish Governemnt should consider investing funds. I am not saying do it at the expense of say the N3,6,7,8,9,11 but it should not be dismissed due to the CURRENT political situation. The funding of the City of Derry airport is a clear precedent. I would not dismiss anything. Eg a western enniskillen bypass would benefit almost entirely Dublin to South Donegal drivers. Why not consider funding it - it would only be about 3km maximum. on a par with say the edgeworthstown bypass.

As for people pissed off over political comments on this post - IT IS A POLITICAL POST!

Few examples of potential projects that would benefit primarily southern motorists (not every f**king road in the north for christs sake - i am not talking about 200km motorways:

1. South Derry bypass - N13 to A6
2. Enniskillen bypass
3. Ballygawley to N2/A5 border
4. A37 Cullavile
5. Upgraded N54 Cavan Monaghan road
6. Belcoo-Blacklion bypass

darkman2

nordydan wrote:

Yes paid for by all NI citizens, including my relations taxes. where is there anywhere near an equivalent outside belfast? There isnt even DC to derry past randalstown (barring the very recent toomebridge bypass).

The point I would like to emphasise is that where it MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL to both parts the Irish Governemnt should consider investing funds. I am not saying do it at the expense of say the N3,6,7,8,9,11 but it should not be dismissed due to the CURRENT political situation. The funding of the City of Derry airport is a clear precedent. I would not dismiss anything. Eg a western enniskillen bypass would benefit almost entirely Dublin to South Donegal drivers. Why not consider funding it - it would only be about 3km maximum. on a par with say the edgeworthstown bypass.

As for people pissed off over political comments on this post - IT IS A POLITICAL POST!

I agree. We keep hearing about unionists from certain quarters but how would nationalists feel about funding of major projects jointly (even if it is only a gesture)?

bk

darkman2 wrote:

I agree. We keep hearing about unionists from certain quarters but how would nationalists feel about funding of major projects jointly (even if it is only a gesture)?

Most would probably want you to keep out of their business. They would realise that such an action would cause far more problems with the unionist then it is worth.

nordydan

bk wrote:

Most would probably want you to keep out of their business. They would realise that such an action would cause far more problems with the unionist then it is worth.

I would sincerely doubt it, bk. Most know that their best chance of getting that part of the country developed would be through some level of funding from the south. I doubt too many local residents would mind as long as their roads are upgraded. Both sides of the community up here are bitching about the quality of roads especially WOTB.

murphaph

The A6 is to get a major improvement with a HQDC bypassing Dungiven and running all the way to L/Derry.

MrPudding

murphaph wrote:

L/Derry.

L/Derry? You mean Stroke City?

MrP

murphaph

MrPudding wrote:

L/Derry? You mean Stroke City?

MrP

That's the one MrP Good ol' Gerry Anderson. I think this debate is really based on some false assumption that all roads in NI have deteriorated into what we used to see as normal for the likes of Cavan etc. That's just not true. In many cases the rural roads in NI are in way better nick than their equivalents in the south. A few flasshy roads projects does not a quality network make.

Much work to do in the RoI methinks. If you were a taxpaying resident of somewhere in the south that got passed up for a bypass while Enniskillen gets one out of your taxes I'd imagine you'd be pretty peeved.

Anyway, people are forgetting that a LOT of projects have political origins and aren't based on any real need. Donegal has had rather a lot of money spent on it's roads recently, and a lot of it has been for political reasons. It happens in the east too, don't get me wrong, but it's easy NOT to fund a road in a 'foreign' jurisdiction so they don't.

The north and the south can cooperate on other things such as the second electricity interconnector announced yesterday, that sort of thing is fine as each pays their share.

nordydan

darkman2 wrote:

I agree. We keep hearing about unionists from certain quarters but how would nationalists feel about funding of major projects jointly (even if it is only a gesture)?

Both nationalist parties are actively pursuing this and both want an island wide spatial strategy. Makes sense regardless of political persuasion, if only to eliminate the poorer border regions.

EG
Western Enniskillen Bypass
Purpose: To provide a bypass of enniskillen for commuters heading from south donegal/north enniskillen to cavan, dublin and the SE. Link between A46 and A509.
Length: about 3km
Cost: I would guess about 30-35million euro but open to correction.
Who would benefit more: The republic, the north would benefit little.
Chances of Brits/Unionists doing it: 0 (0.5% of new schemes projected in the next 15 years in the 6 counties are in fermanagh)
Benefits:Reduced travelling distance. Up to 25-30 minutes of journey time at peak times - at least 10 minutes at off peak times. Also it would stop free staters travelling through Enniskillen and giving their tax euros to perfidious albion and those dastardly sassenachs.
Reasons against doing it:
Brits/Unionists should be doing it - never going to happen
Its a foreign country - Its an island
Waste of money - Hardly. enniskillen is a bottle neck on the dublin ballyshanon route. Its is only to the republics disadvantage that this situation remains.
Offending unionists - being irish offends unionists. Anything you do will offend them. tell them the roas means that you can SPEND AS LITTLE TIME AS POSSIBLE in the north. That'll buy them over.

MrPudding

murphaph wrote:

I think this debate is really based on some false assumption that all roads in NI have deteriorated into what we used to see as normal for the likes of Cavan etc. That's just not true. In many cases the rural roads in NI are in way better nick than their equivalents in the south.

They have done some really nice work on the road between Belfast and Coleraine over the last few years. I find generally the road in the north are far superior.

Yes, there have been a few nice new roads built down here but the I think the majority are still bad. When you are driving over to the west to a major city you can find yourself on an N road with dodgey edges, dodgey markings, dodgey signs and very few "cats eyes."

Compare that to the A class roads in the north with may just be going from one small town to another and they are so much better. Nice wide lanes, mostly kerbed at the edges, good road markings which are kind of reflective and give excellent visability, cats eyes on the centre line and the edges and lovely big highly reflective signs.

Of and they have worked out int he north that if there is a pothole in the road you have to actually remove the section around it and carry out a repair. This is as opposed to the sothern method which seems to consist of dumping a wheelbarrow full of tarmac into it, lighting up and fag and saying "ah sure, it'll be grand."

Let the north take care of themselves. As the other have pointed out, we have a massive deficit in transport here in the south, both in roads and in public transport. Let's get that sorted before we try to improve the already arguably superior lot of our friends in the north.

MrP

darkman2

The biggest problem in the North is the huge yearly subsidy. I doubt 1 single kilometre of new M-way will be built until thats reigned in.

nordydan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/5229370.stm


Road network to get £400m upgrade
Details of a proposed £400m package to upgrade roads across Northern Ireland by 2015 have been outlined.
Regional Development minister David Cairns announced a two-month consultation period on Monday.

The plan includes £130m for the road from Londonderry to Strabane, a £50m Westlink fly-over and £10m to improve the Omagh to Enniskillen road.

Up to £1bn has already been set aside for major improvements until 2015, but this money will fund fresh schemes.

By-passes are planned for Enniskillen, Ballykelly and Fivemiletown and there are plans for a new £45m link between the M1 and Hillsborough, to take through traffic past Sprucefield.

Other projects include a £50m scheme to provide a fly-over junction carrying Westlink over York Street, as well as dualling on the A26 from Coleraine to Ballymoney and the A3 from Portadown to Richill.


The proposed investment in Northern Ireland's Strategic Road Network now stands at £1.4bn - the highest in real terms for over 30 years
David Cairns
Regional Development Minister

Mr Cairns said not every roads scheme in Northern Ireland could be funded and, as a result, he was putting the proposals out to public consultation before plans were finalised in the autumn.

"This package of improvements is part of the ongoing investment being undertaken in Northern Ireland's infrastructure which is essential to encourage economic development," he said.

"It is to be funded as part of the Investment Strategy for Northern Ireland (ISNI) in which an extra £400m has been earmarked for major improvements to the trunk road network during the period up to 2015.

"This is over and above the £1bn already in the pipeline, and means that proposed investment in Northern Ireland's Strategic Road Network now stands at £1.4bn, the highest in real terms for over 30 years."

David Orr of the Roads Service said it was important to plan for the future.

"Major schemes like these have lead-in times of at least six years from the time they are included in the programme until work starts on site," he said.

"So this consultation is an important first step towards getting the work on the ground."

The £1bn programme was announced last year while the extra money was first proposed in December.

nordydan

Looks Derry-Strabane and Coleraine-Ballymena will get completed. The new omagh enniskillen is due to the movement of a hospital. And the enniskillen bypass has at least been considered.
However the most interesting scheme will be the Westlink to M2 scheme. It'll make the M50 upgrade look like a girls tea party!

darkman2

nordydan wrote:

Looks Derry-Strabane and Coleraine-Ballymena will get completed. The new omagh enniskillen is due to the movement of a hospital. And the enniskillen bypass has at least been considered.
However the most interesting scheme will be the Westlink to M2 scheme. It'll make the M50 upgrade look like a girls tea party!

At 1 billion euros I doubt it:rolleyes:

Maskhadov

Good to see the north trying to catch up with the south. the roads are in a pretty bad state up there and need every cent of this money.

nordydan

darkman2 wrote:

At 1 billion euros I doubt it:rolleyes:

As far as disruption per square metre goes it'll be hard to top.

75-80% of the schemes and money are going west of the bann, at least the imbalance is finally being addressed.

murphaph

Maskhadov wrote:

Good to see the north trying to catch up with the south. the roads are in a pretty bad state up there and need every cent of this money.

Don't ya mean "every penny"?

darkman2

The point really being that the North will never have 1 billion to spend on one project. I welcome this investment though:)