ROI roads better then North

andrew163

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The drive from Glasgow to Dublin was not pleasant at all

Even today the drive from Glasgow to Dublin tends to get you a bit wet

nordydan

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I do remember that

The drive from Glasgow to Dublin was not pleasant at all and the NI section was better. How the tables have turned.

Better times indeed. I remember hitting newry from downpatrick before the built the bypass. It could take 45 minutes to get through it and another 45 with the british army. 2 1/4 hours to get 40 miles. now its 1 hour (almost) guaranteed

ardmacha

Actually the British did far more deliberate damage to roads than any private sector terrorists, but things have improved. There was discrimination in the past and some work is still needed to redress this. This A2 Newry Warrenpoint was a rare example of reverse discrimination as when it was built Stormont was on its last legs. They needed a "nationalist" good road, so the road was dualled, which was straighforward in engineering terms as it ran along the shore and had a disused railway alongside.

Fermanagh/Leitrim/Donegal is not the most prosperous part of the country and there is a clear case that these counties are disadvantaged to some extent by the border. There will be no reopened railways in this area! So the obvious way forward is some sort of special pleading with the EU for this region alone.

bazzer06

murphaph wrote:

Don't know for certain. The UK does not consider the RoI a 'foreign state' (Ireland Act, 1949) but I don't know exactly how the RoI treats the UK in legislaton. Of course, for the purposes of this debate they may as well be foreign in the traditional sense as tax revenue raised in the UK is centrally directed to London

Eh, what? just read the act there now - weird. not sure what exactly foreign means in legalese though
And of course we consider them a foreign state - it would be unconstitutional if we didn't

bk

One other point, if we start financing roads in the North, won't that just get the Unionists all upset.

They'll claim that we are already starting to take over the North and we are laying the ground work for a united Ireland (which to be honest, wouldn't be far from the truth).

Would such a move not destabilise further the fragile peace process.

A much better plan would be to get the Irish and UK governments together with the Northern councils to approach the EU to finance the Northern parts of the roads, while we finance the Southern parts ourselves and then work to join them up. It would still probably be controversial for the unionists, but less so.

The EU would probably go for it under bridge building, interstate cooperation, on an underdeveloped area.

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

Don't know for certain. The UK does not consider the RoI a 'foreign state' (Ireland Act, 1949) but I don't know exactly how the RoI treats the UK in legislaton. Of course, for the purposes of this debate they may as well be foreign in the traditional sense as tax revenue raised in the UK is centrally directed to London.


Indeed. Totally agree. I wasn't the one who introduced the contents of other sites to this one. That role was taken by nordydan.

It dosnt matter how the UK treats this state. It is a foreign state, a sovereign country. The only reason I can see for them perhaps not viewing it as 'foreign' is the North. We should be preparing for a UI anyway, not to do so would be short sighted and could cause problems in the future. We can start by contributing something to the transport infrastructure.

Navan Junction

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The drive from Glasgow to Dublin was not pleasant at all and the NI section was better.

The worst bit of that drive-boat-drive is the Scottish section... Even if you go from Larne

murphaph

darkman2 wrote:

It dosnt matter how the UK treats this state. It is a foreign state, a sovereign country. The only reason I can see for them perhaps not viewing it as 'foreign' is the North. We should be preparing for a UI anyway, not to do so would be short sighted and could cause problems in the future. We can start by contributing something to the transport infrastructure.

Listen mate, it was Victor who posed the question to me about the legal definition of 'foreign' and I answered him as best I could. Under UK law the 26 counties are NOT foreign. That's why you can go and vote in Westminster elections if you live in the UK while a frenchman cannot. It is likely enough that our own legislation (created in 1949 when we declared ourselves a republic) did likelwise as british citizens are able to stand for Dail elections and vote in them. It's one of the reasons irish citizens can join the police forces in the UK or the army etc. etc.

Like I said before though. The tax revenue is not shared between us so we foreign to each other in fiscal terms at the very least. Of course we're both sovereign states yada yada. The A5 runs through a different sovereign state. I made that quite clear before and gave it as my reasoning for not funding its upgrade.

MrPudding

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It should also be noted that the N1/A1 corridor was, until recently, a disgrace considering it links the 2 biggest Irish cities together.

I thought the N1/A1 went from Dublin to Belfast not Dublin to Cork?

MrP

A Dub in Glasgo

Navan Junction wrote:

The worst bit of that drive-boat-drive is the Scottish section... Even if you go from Larne

Stranraer & Cairnryan - Yes
Troon - No

Navan Junction

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Stranraer & Cairnryan - Yes
Troon - No

Yep, but that run to Troon only goes in Summer.. And is brutal to drive on and off from.. Takes ages too..

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

Listen mate, it was Victor who posed the question to me about the legal definition of 'foreign' and I answered him as best I could. Under UK law the 26 counties are NOT foreign. That's why you can go and vote in Westminster elections if you live in the UK while a frenchman cannot. It is likely enough that our own legislation (created in 1949 when we declared ourselves a republic) did likelwise as british citizens are able to stand for Dail elections and vote in them. It's one of the reasons irish citizens can join the police forces in the UK or the army etc. etc.

Like I said before though. The tax revenue is not shared between us so we foreign to each other in fiscal terms at the very least. Of course we're both sovereign states yada yada. The A5 runs through a different sovereign state. I made that quite clear before and gave it as my reasoning for not funding its upgrade.

Im not getting into this. The fact is we are a foreign state. We have nothing politically to do with the UK whatsoever. The points you make are purely convienience for the two jurisdictions economically and practically. I think youd wanna look up the word 'foreign' in the dictionary.

Getting back to the roads. In the interests of reuniting the Island we must build up a credible transport infrastructure between the two jurisdictions. It could be thought of as integrating the road network (and indeed public transport) on both sides of the border. Now the ppl on the Northern side of us arent doing their job in this respect and given history I dont expect an M1 to the border anytime soon. What elected representitives up their need is a kick up the arse (on both sides) and start tackling the real issues - transport, health, education etc... (god forbid they'd ever have to be elected on that basis!). We should jointly fund these projects and it would increase our leverage up there.

murphaph

darkman2 wrote:

Im not getting into this. The fact is we are a foreign state.

Not as far as the United Kingdom is concerned;

The main provisions of the Ireland Act was the acceptance that the creation of a Republic of Ireland had meant that that state had left the Commonwealth of Nations, but that "...the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country..." in British law

source: Ireland Act, 1949

darkman2 wrote:

We have nothing politically to do with the UK whatsoever

Incorrect. We have many political relations with the UK. Hell, even you could go live in Britain and so long as you're over 21(?) you could be Prime Minister if elected. No other EU citizens could do that.

darkman2 wrote:

The points you make are purely convienience for the two jurisdictions economically and practically. I think youd wanna look up the word 'foreign' in the dictionary.

I think you'd wanna read the Acts of parliament concerned before shooting your mouth off about something you clearly know nothing about.

On the roads front, I'm all for such projects as the N1/A1 link and any other projects where close cooperation between both states can deliver better infrastructure at lower cost. I'm just not in favour of irish taxpayers funding roads in the UK. I have no problem with irish taxpayers funding roads in Poland or the other EU accession states, just as the UK taxpayer funded roads in Ireland for many years. The UK is simply too wealthy to deserve funding from us.

markf909

We should jointly fund these projects and it would increase our leverage up there.

No we should complete our own road goals as per T21 and continue to invest in infrastructure in our own country whilst we are relatively prosperous.
We are still playing serious catch up with the UK and Western Europe when it comes to tranpsort infrastructure.
The last thing we need to do is to start directly funding ( ie not via our EU contributions) roads in other countries when we haven't got our own house in order.

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

Not as far as the United Kingdom is concerned;



I would regard that as a breach of soveriegnty despite the fact that is NOT true. You have to apply common sense here, no political leader in the UK would come out with a statement like that and no we do not have ANY political links with the UK, the links you descibed are nothing more then economic considerations this country, as an island, has made sure to retain. The only thing the UK and Ireland have in common politically is the EU. Get over it.

darkman2

markf909 wrote:

No we should complete our own road goals as per T21 and continue to invest in infrastructure in our own country whilst we are relatively prosperous.
We are still playing serious catch up with the UK and Western Europe when it comes to tranpsort infrastructure.
The last thing we need to do is to start directly funding ( ie not via our EU contributions) roads in other countries when we haven't got our own house in order.

And when thats completed would you still object?

markf909

darkman2 wrote:

And when thats completed would you still object?

T21 provides only for the completion of the inter-urban motorways and the Atlantic road corridor. There are many more schemes ( the outer orbital M50-type route etc) that will be vying for funding post-T21. It is incredibly naive to assume that the country will still be rolling in surpluses in 10 years time, thus to invest in wealth generation infrastructure in another country would be an act of folly. Therefore I would have to object to any spending at any time in the infrastructure of Northern Ireland whilst it is an integral part of the UK.

darkman2

markf909 wrote:

T21 provides only for the completion of the inter-urban motorways and the Atlantic road corridor. There are many more schemes ( the outer orbital M50-type route etc) that will be vying for funding post-T21. It is incredibly naive to assume that the country will still be rolling in surpluses in 10 years time, thus to invest in wealth generation infrastructure in another country would be an act of folly. Therefore I would have to object to any spending at any time in the infrastructure of Northern Ireland whilst it is an integral part of the UK.

I dont think its naive at all. There is no going back to the 80s if thats what you mean. The economic posistion of the country is the soundest in Europe. Only recently we had an in depth report about how it is very possible the boom would last 15 or more years provided the sound economic policies are implemented. I think its about time ppl in this country got over this inferiority complex (not refering to you specifically). Yes we have alot to do but we are in a posistion now were we can do more then we ever dreamed of only 10 years ago. We should continue to invest massively in infrastructure (we have the largest motorway programme in Europe ongoing at the moment) to secure economic competitiveness. T21 is the largest transport infrastructure plan in the EU about to be implemented. This country is about to build infrastructure on a scale never seen before on this Island, and its about time too.

murphaph

darkman2 wrote:

I would regard that as a breach of soveriegnty despite the fact that is NOT true. You have to apply common sense here, no political leader in the UK would come out with a statement like that and no we do not have ANY political links with the UK, the links you descibed are nothing more then economic considerations this country, as an island, has made sure to retain. The only thing the UK and Ireland have in common politically is the EU. Get over it.

You appear to be very politically naive darkman2. Have you ever heard of the Anglo-Irish agreement, the common travel area (the reason you don't need a passport to go to Newry!!), the Good Friday Agreement, the British-Irish council? These are all TOTALLY independent of the European Union. Whether you like it or not, the UK does not regard us as foreigners. It's not a declaration that they still think they 'own us' which is what you seem to think it means, it's simply a recognition of our past history and was included in the Ireland Act so as not to alienate people in the 26 counties who still felt british. That's why many people born here are eligible for british passports. You talk about common sense being applied. How sensible would it be for the RoI to start building roads in NI? Just how do you think unionists would react to that? The peace process is a delicate balancing act and you'd happily blunder in there and start colonising NI by stealth, hoping the unionists wouldn't notice or what??

I don't think you'll find many irish taxpayers too willing to fund roads in NI by the way, even people who want a UI eventually would likely prefer the tax taken here was spent here.

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

You appear to be very politically naive darkman2. Have you ever heard of the Anglo-Irish agreement, the common travel area (the reason you don't need a passport to go to Newry!!), the Good Friday Agreement, the British-Irish council? These are all TOTALLY independent of the European Union. Whether you like it or not, the UK does not regard us as foreigners. It's not a declaration that they still think they 'own us' which is what you seem to think it means, it's simply a recognition of our past history and was included in the Ireland Act so as not to alienate people in the 26 counties who still felt british. That's why many people born here are eligible for british passports. You talk about common sense being applied. How sensible would it be for the RoI to start building roads in NI? Just how do you think unionists would react to that? The peace process is a delicate balancing act and you'd happily blunder in there and start colonising NI by stealth, hoping the unionists wouldn't notice or what??

I don't think you'll find many irish taxpayers too willing to fund roads in NI by the way, even people who want a UI eventually would likely prefer the tax taken here was spent here.

You do realise that if Tony Blair openly said tomorrow that the Republic was not (note I didnt say 'he dosnt see it as...') a foreign country that would imply a breach of our soveriegnty dont you? Like I said common sense would tell you that the UK can put whatever they like in their legislation regarding our jurisdiction but in reality its not worth the paper its written on unless its only for economic purposes and recipricated through an agreement by this jurisdiction which that act is not. Anything political has to be jointly agreed. The British/Irish Council is nothing more then a talking shop to appease unionists. It has no functions to decide anything in either jurisdiction even though it is obviously signed into law in both jurisdictions. Do you see my point? Should add the economic considerations for the common travel area and market are very important to this economy and Im all for that.

Anyhow were getting off topic. OK lets assume T21 is fully implemented (and indeed added to) in its timeframe (unlikely I know but bare with me;) ) do you not think we should even make a gesture in terms of financing infrastructure in the north (even if its not a huge amount)?

P.S you keep talking about Unionists. I think the nationalists would approve of some sort of joint effort.

markf909

I dont think its naive at all. There is no going back to the 80s if thats what you mean. The economic posistion of the country is the soundest in Europe. Only recently we had an in depth report about how it is very possible the boom would last 15 or more years provided the sound economic policies are implemented.

I wouldnt for a second suggest that a return to the 80's was possible.
My point is simple, our investment in wealth generation infrastructure must continue while we are this wealthy and I feel it should only be invested in this country.
I dont see how it is in the Republic's economic interest to be investing in infrastructure in a region where the taxes go somewhere else. Just my take, its a rather moot argument anyway, there are too many political angles to this one.

darkman2

markf909 wrote:

I wouldnt for a second suggest that a return to the 80's was possible.
My point is simple, our investment in wealth generation infrastructure must continue while we are this wealthy and I feel it should only be invested in this country.
I dont see how it is in the Republic's economic interest to be investing in infrastructure in a region where the taxes go somewhere else. Just my take, its a rather moot argument anyway, there are too many political angles to this one.

Thats if you see the boom as a blip and 'normal service' will be resumed soon. I dont think this is the case. The country has just moved to a new playing field IMO. You may think thats naieve but I am very confident for the future. All the indicators are good imparticular the demographics which are excellent compared to alot of EU countries. The most critical thing is infrastructure. Im not saying invest in the North now, im talking about further down the line.

murphaph

darkman2 wrote:

You do realise that if Tony Blair openly said tomorrow that the Republic was not (note I didnt say 'he dosnt see it as...') a foreign country that would imply a breach of our soveriegnty dont you?

No I don't acept that. He'd just be reiterating an act of Westminster which only seems to bother you. We have similar legislation on our statute books, does that mean we are impinging on the sovereignty of the United Kingdom?

darkman2 wrote:

Like I said common sense would tell you that the UK can put whatever they like in their legislation regarding our jurisdiction but in reality its not worth the paper its written on unless its only for economic purposes and recipricated through an agreement by this jurisdiction which that act is not.

Arrrgh, it is reciprocated here. British nationals are entitled under IRISH law to stand for and vote in Dail and local elections!!! How many times do i have to tell you this?

darkman2 wrote:

Anything political has to be jointly agreed. The British/Irish Council is nothing more then a talking shop to appease unionists. It has no functions to decide anything in either jurisdiction even though it is obviously signed into law in both jurisdictions. Do you see my point?

No I don't. You claimed Ireland has no political relations wih the UK apart from at EU level. Now you are clearly acknowledging that we do have many arrangements with them outside of the EU, so you acknowledge you were incorrect.

darkman2 wrote:

Should add the economic considerations for the common travel area and market are very important to this economy and Im all for that.

Again, an agreement borne outside the EU (predates the EEC actually) between Ireland and the United Kingdom. What were you saying about our political relations with the UK again??

darkman2 wrote:

Anyhow were getting off topic. OK lets assume T21 is fully implemented (and indeed added to) in its timeframe (unlikely I know but bare with me;) ) do you not think we should even make a gesture in terms of financing infrastructure in the north (even if its not a huge amount)?

Why just a litle gesture? You are obviously more in favour of funding NI roads because of it's political implications if we are now talking in the realms of 'gestures' rather than for any real purpose. A gesture to whom anyway? Nationalists I presume.

darkman2 wrote:

P.S you keep talking about Unionists. I think the nationalists would approve of some sort of joint effort.

Well when they are the majority we'll see what happens eh

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

No I don't acept that. He'd just be reiterating an act of Westminster which only seems to bother you. We have similar legislation on our statute books, does that mean we are impinging on the sovereignty of the United Kingdom?


The UK is a foreign, sovereign country with its own government. If you want to discuss this then why not do it in political discussion? P.S your after contradicting yourself now by saying Northern Ireland was a foreign country earlier.

dRNk SAnTA

"What is the definition of 'foreign'".....This argument has become pedantic beyond belief! Whats the point of it?

Logic dictates that it does not make sense for the Rep. Ireland to give its money away....

We may have a world class economy but we are way behind the rest of europe in terms of infrastructure. T21 will not solve it all! Our infrastructure needs decades more of investment. An economic surplus is not money we don't need!!! It is just money the government did not expect to raise in that fiscal year. As government revenue increases so does expenditure to improve services. There will never be a time when Ireland won't have a use for its money!

Its ok to be so nationalist but get a grip on reality. Ireland will not be united in 10-15 years, that is a rubbish reason to give them our money now.

By the way 15 year economic forecasts are worth little and I dont think large personal debts and an over-reliance on foreign investment in a time of high inflation and decreasing competitiveness is the soundest economic footing. At least not sound enough to allow us to become the most benevolent country on earth!

murphaph

Indeed and anyone who is "convinced our prosperity is here to stay" should look up Wirtschaftswunder. Times change folks, we should invest in our OWN territory with our OWN money so when the economy cools (as it will!!) we have at least got something to show for it.

Darkman, you believe the UK to be foreign. The UK includes NI, yet you want to invest OUR money in what you yourself insist is a frorgn country. As santa says, it's fine to be nationalist or whatever but get a grip on reality.

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

Indeed and anyone who is "convinced our prosperity is here to stay" should look up Wirtschaftswunder. Times change folks, we should invest in our OWN territory with our OWN money so when the economy cools (as it will!!) we have at least got something to show for it.

Darkman, you believe the UK to be foreign. The UK includes NI, yet you want to invest OUR money in what you yourself insist is a frorgn country. As santa says, it's fine to be nationalist or whatever but get a grip on reality.

Maybe its time you put aside your inferiority complex and actually discussed the issue on its merits. As far as Im concerned the economy is in fine shape and at 5% growth per year I dont see any problems for the forseeable future.

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

No I don't acept that. He'd just be reiterating an act of Westminster which only seems to bother you. We have similar legislation on our statute books, does that mean we are impinging on the sovereignty of the United Kingdom?


Arrrgh, it is reciprocated here. British nationals are entitled under IRISH law to stand for and vote in Dail and local elections!!! How many times do i have to tell you this?


No I don't. You claimed Ireland has no political relations wih the UK apart from at EU level. Now you are clearly acknowledging that we do have many arrangements with them outside of the EU, so you acknowledge you were incorrect.


Again, an agreement borne outside the EU (predates the EEC actually) between Ireland and the United Kingdom. What were you saying about our political relations with the UK again??


Why just a litle gesture? You are obviously more in favour of funding NI roads because of it's political implications if we are now talking in the realms of 'gestures' rather than for any real purpose. A gesture to whom anyway? Nationalists I presume.


Well when they are the majority we'll see what happens eh

Im having difficulty finding the part in the Irish citizenship act that says British nationals can vote in our general election. You better clarify that one. And also quote the exact passage in the act that you are referring to.

MrPudding

darkman2 wrote:

Im having difficulty finding the part in the Irish citizenship act that says British nationals can vote in our general election. You better clarify that one. And also quote the exact passage in the act that you are referring to.

Have a look at this:

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/government_in_ireland/elections/registering_to_vote_in_ireland.html

Oasis (not the band) wrote:

Rules

Who is eligible to vote in elections and referenda?

• Irish citizens can vote in every election and referendum
• British citizens may vote at Dáil, European and local elections
• Other EU citizens may vote at European and local elections
• Non-EU citizens can vote at local elections only

Is that OK?

darkman2

MrPudding wrote:

Have a look at this:

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/government_in_ireland/elections/registering_to_vote_in_ireland.html

[/LIST]Is that OK?

They have to be resident in the state. Also Im interest to know why in the British general election citizens from the Irish Republic may not vote under any circumstances. However thats for the Politics forum.