The Smiths - Overblown just a tad?

Doctor J

Read this nugget on nme.co.uk

With albums like 'The Queen Is Dead' and 'Meat Is Murder', not mention their unique style and offbeat take on the world, The Smiths were voted NME's most influential band of all time a few yearts ago.

Good band, yeah, but most influential of all time? My arse! Is it just me or is the rather creepy obsession some people have with The Smiths rather unfounded?

Your opinions please.

Blisterman

I wouldn't take anything the NME write, at face value.

Doctor J

I'm not, I'm just staggered to see such a claim in any publication.

Dudess

Have to disagree with you there. The Smiths, to me, are one of the most influential bands of all time. I wouldn't have a problem with the NME nominating them THE most influential band of all time (even though I wouldn't use the NME as toilet paper). I suppose it's because they were so original. I can't think of a band that can be compared with them. Granted, there are some similarities between them and other groups, but citing a bunch of other bands in the same breath as, for example, Nirvana (now THERE'S an overrated band) comes easily - Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice In Chains etc. But when it comes to The Smiths, they were out on their own. For example, what "scene" did The Smiths belong to? None. They were so different to everything else - even their contemporaries - The Cure, New Order, J&MC, Echo and the Bunnymen, Cocteaus. The combination of Morrissey and Marr's lyrics and music - well, I think it beats Lennon/McCartney hands down. Nobody even comes close to Morrissey as a lyricist. Messrs Cocker and Albarn have the clever lyric thingy down to an extent, but Morrissey - the man is a true original.

Doctor J

I'm not saying they're ****e, far from it, I'm just questioning whether they're more influential than... let's say The Beatles, for example. I think not. Black Sabbath, perhaps, who pretty much created an entire genre, no, don't think so. You see what I mean? Great band, yeah, but not as influential as a lot of others.

Earthhorse

So given that you can list bands in the same bracket as Nirvana and the Seattle bands, or their contemporaries in England, such as the Cure, how is it that The Smiths are influential?

Very few bands have followed in their footsteps or even attempted to. I can't think of anyone on the scene today that bears their imprint, whereas the imprint of the likes of Nirvana can be found in many bands, ableit in a completely anemic and diluted manner.

Personally, I like the idea of The Smiths more than I like their music. Morrissey comes out with the occasional gem alright but most of his lyrics are pretty simple and nothing to write home about. The likes of Buddy Holly and The Crickets, Led Zeppelin, Velvet Underground, The Beatles, The Who, Rolling Stones, and even more contemporary bands such as the Pixies, U2, REM can lay greater claim to shaping the musical and lyrical content of today's music. For better or worse.

Dudess

Doctor J wrote:

I'm not saying they're ****e, far from it, I'm just questioning whether they're more influential than... let's say The Beatles, for example. I think not. Black Sabbath, perhaps, who pretty much created an entire genre, no, don't think so. You see what I mean? Great band, yeah, but not as influential as a lot of others.

Oh I know you're not saying they're ****e. Unfortunately, there is no easy answer. It comes down to opinion. And I'm glad about that. I'd hate if it was decided that, for instance, The Beatles were the most influential band of all time and it was set in stone and nobody could question it. I have to say I think it's fair enough for a large group of people to consider The Smiths the most influential band of all time. In my opinion, the most influential band of all time is New Order/Joy Division. Not their recent stuff, but up to the late 80s. I can't think of any group who have had such an influence over so many groups in so many genres. I doubt many would agree with me, though. It depends on a lot of factors too - the time especially. I'm sure to someone who was 16 in 1963, The Beatles are the most influential group of all time. I would say most of the NME staff were born in the 1960s or 70s. Therefore The Smiths would mean a lot to them.

Dudess

Earthhorse wrote:

So given that you can list bands in the same bracket as Nirvana and the Seattle bands, or their contemporaries in England, such as the Cure, how is it that The Smiths are influential?

Very few bands have followed in their footsteps or even attempted to. I can't think of anyone on the scene today that bears their imprint, whereas the imprint of the likes of Nirvana can be found in many bands, ableit in a completely anemic and diluted manner.

That's exactly what I'm saying. You must have misunderstood me. I know I can list their contemporaries such as The Cure etc, but purely because that's all they were - contemporaries. Bands who were around at the same time and were "indie", shunned commercialism, didn't fit in with Culture Club, Duran Duran etc. None of those sounded like The Smiths and, I agree, no bands have followed in their footsteps or even attempted to. I do think that the bands I listed along with Nirvana DO sound like them because I don't think what Nirvana were doing was that original - in terms of their sound anyway. But that's just my opinion.

Earthhorse wrote:

Personally, I like the idea of The Smiths more than I like their music. Morrissey comes out with the occasional gem alright but most of his lyrics are pretty simple and nothing to write home about. The likes of Buddy Holly and The Crickets, Led Zeppelin, Velvet Underground, The Beatles, The Who, Rolling Stones, and even more contemporary bands such as the Pixies, U2, REM can lay greater claim to shaping the musical and lyrical content of today's music. For better or worse.

While the artists/groups you have mentioned are great, I would disagree about the lyrics thing. I think Morrissey is up there with Dylan.

Earthhorse

Dudess wrote:

None of those sounded like The Smiths and, I agree, no bands have followed in their footsteps or even attempted to.

So then, how are they influential? Influential in the sense that they shaped music, not influential in people's lives because I think that's where you might be coming from and that's, as you've already mentioned, totally subjective.

Dudess wrote:

While the artists/groups you have mentioned are great, I would disagree about the lyrics thing. I think Morrissey is up there with Dylan.

I've only listened to Blood on the Tracks but I have to say that I found Dylan's lyrics incredibly uninspired. But I will concede that many people rate Morrissey and Dylan as great lyricists.

Dudess

Earthhorse wrote:

So then, how are they influential? Influential in the sense that they shaped music, not influential in people's lives because I think that's where you might be coming from and that's, as you've already mentioned, totally subjective.

Good point. In people's lives. I would say The Smiths are the most original group of all time actually.

John

I think there are very few indie bands nowadays that aren't influence by The Smiths. The extent of the influence varies with the band. My band sound nothing like The Smiths but we're huge fans of The Smiths and I'd freely cite them as an influence. We sound nothing like Kraftwerk but we're heavily influenced by them too.

Most influential band of all time? No, there's no such thing. No band or individual is influenced by The Smiths and only The Smiths. Just like The Smiths weren't born out of some vaccuum and set off where no one had gone before. If you think The Smiths are the most influential band of all time, surely their influences should be more influential? Why not pick the New York Dolls? They sound nothing like The Smiths but they were Morrissey's world for a long time. However many bands that the NME cover will be hugely influenced so perhaps it's justifiable to say that The Smiths are the most influential direct influence for the particular niche of music covered by the NME.

dead air

Ah, as i remember that article was based on the amount of coverage that NME gave bands and which bands generated the most interest from letter writers and journalists and so on. Of course, the NME (as it is the centre of the universe as we all know) overstated it so much so that they essentially declared The Smiths as the "most influential" of everything full stop. I detest the NME, but it is true, in the history of that magazine the Smiths were indeed the band that influenced the NME (and nothing more) the most. If they were to recreate that little survey in ten years it would be probably be Pete Doherty. And the NME will be officially pronounced dead when they declare Pete Doherty more influential than the Beatles.

Anyhow, The Smiths really were a great band. There really is something special about the pairing of morrissey and marr that few other band had or will ever have again. The sheer volume of work they produced in the short few years they were a band is consistently brilliant (well, I would say that ). I'm a great fan of their bassist Andy Rourke, surely one of the greatest unsung bass heros.

I must admit though, I did buy a copy of that particular issue

indusrocker

the smiths are GREAT.full stop.best band ever by a mile.name me one bad smiths song and ill stop being a fan.no joke:eek:

Amazotheamazing

Must admit I never got the whole Smiths thing, personally think Dylan and Cohen are far better lyricists too. Not saying they're bad or anything, just don't hear what inspires devotion.

bottlerocket

Saying any band or artist are the most influential of all time is patently ridiculous. To say The Smiths are and were influential is quite another thing however, especially in indie circles. Leaving Morrissey aside for the moment, Johnny Marr has been quoted by many as being an inspiration and an influence by Bernard Butler, Graham Coxon, Noel Gallagher and others. Also Joyce and Rourke are highly regarded as a rhythm section. As for Morrissey that's a little harder to define. He's such a one-off, if anyone appeared overtly influenced by him they'd be slagged off to high heaven, a la Gene.

As for the music, in my book they have few peers as a band. They arrived remarkably fully formed and left such a consistent body of work that they fully deserve whatever praise is thrown their way. Though they did split at exactly the right time, which always helps!

JustCoz

I don't really know the Smiths music but i was wondering is the song that's played at the beginning of Charmed the TV programme their song?

Dudess

Yes it is. It's called How Soon Is Now. The Charmed theme song is a cover though. By whom, I don't know.

hiscan

the smiths are class full stop
how soon is now was recently voted third best lyrics of all time which was won by u2s one

John

Pfft! Neither song would be in my top 100.

Dudess

hiscan wrote:

the smiths are class full stop
how soon is now was recently voted third best lyrics of all time which was won by u2s one

"There's a club if you'd like to go. You could meet somebody who really loves you. So you go and you stand on your own, and you leave on your own, and you go home, and you cry and you want to die."

Self-obsessed teenager lyrics or what?!

Amazotheamazing

They are awful, awful lyrics.

Lunar Junkie

In a river the colour of lead
Immerse the baby’s head
Wrap her up in the news of the world
Dump her on a doorstep, girl
This night has opened my eyes
And I will never sleep again

You kicked and cried like a bullied child
A grown man of twenty-five
Oh, he said he’d cure your ills
But he didn’t and he never will
Oh, save your life
Because you’ve only got one

The dream has gone
But the baby is real
Oh, you did a good thing
She could have been a poet
Or, she could have been a fool
Oh, you did a bad thing
And I’m not happy
And I’m not sad

A shoeless child on a swing
Reminds you of your own again
She took away your troubles
Oh, but then again
She left pain
So, please save your life
Because you’ve only got one

adonis

Amazotheamazing wrote:

They are awful, awful lyrics.

that signature looks like the lyrics to a song...

of course the smiths are brilliant. One of the best bands ever.
Great Guitarist (one of the best ever), Great lyricist (one of the best ever) and a brilliant rhythm section - check out barbarism begins at home -

Meat is murder is probably the most perfect album ever released...
not one bad song and perfectly paced the whole way through. Without them there is no stone roses and without them there isnt really any modern english pop/indie music..
but it all comes from Dylan really who influenced John Lennon, who in turn influenced the rest of them.

Brother To God

Great lyrics ,good music! the smiths where legends and still have a thing or two to teach,but I would not say they are as influencing as others say! And nme are a pack of liars in general so it can,t be true!

Closing Doors

adonis wrote:

Without them there is no stone roses

We're supposed to thank them for that?

Smiths were/are hugely overrated, but they do seem to get namedropped as influences a bit. Not as much as others though...

Amazotheamazing

adonis wrote:

that signature looks like the lyrics to a song...

of course the smiths are brilliant. One of the best bands ever.
Great Guitarist (one of the best ever), Great lyricist (one of the best ever) and a brilliant rhythm section - check out barbarism begins at home -

Meat is murder is probably the most perfect album ever released...
not one bad song and perfectly paced the whole way through. Without them there is no stone roses and without them there isnt really any modern english pop/indie music..
but it all comes from Dylan really who influenced John Lennon, who in turn influenced the rest of them.

I'm obviously not saying all their lyrics are awful, but surely you agree the quoted ones are?

My sig is from a Robert Johnson song, called, (surprisingly enough) "Stop Breaking Down", don't think they're the best lyrics ever, but they're funny.

indusrocker

no they are actually the lyrics of a post-adolescent who hates the disco/club scene and fair ****s to him for stating the fact.great song too

Dudess

Oh I know. But an angry, self-obsessed teen would totally, like, relate to those lyrics, man. I know I did.

adonis

Closing Doors wrote:

We're supposed to thank them for that?

Smiths were/are hugely overrated, but they do seem to get namedropped as influences a bit. Not as much as others though...

again another sig with RADIOhead lyrics..
who of course wouldnt be there if it wasnt for the two afformentioned bands..
and of course we should be thankful for the stone roses. One of the best bands ever...on a par with the smiths and the beatles easily,..and Radiohead have only done one album comparable to the stone roses, that being Kid A...

Closing Doors

adonis wrote:

again another sig with RADIOhead lyrics..
who of course wouldnt be there if it wasnt for the two afformentioned bands..
and of course we should be thankful for the stone roses. One of the best bands ever...on a par with the smiths and the beatles easily,..and Radiohead have only done one album comparable to the stone roses, that being Kid A...

It's kind of infantile to lash out at Radiohead & Robert Johnson just because their lyrics were in the signatures of 2 people who disagreed with you about the Smiths.

I've heard Jonny Greenwood refer to the Smiths as an influence, but not the rest of them (not neccesarily meaning they haven't). Radiohead don't sound like either the Smiths or Stone Roses in fairness.

And I'd take any Radiohead album/ep (yup even Pablo Honey) over the incredible blandness of Stone Roses...but thats just me.

adonis

Ok, its not infantile to use your sig as an argument, especially iif your Sig has lyrics in it from a band that have claimed to be influenced by the Smiths!!!

Pablo Honey Vs The Stone Roses
hmmm
we could put that one up on a poll...
what you think..
Pablo Honey is pretty crumby if you ask me! but then you arent are you!

anyway, as far as im concerned there is a line of english bands..
Stretching back to the beatles and the stones, encompassing Joy Division/New Order, the Smiths, Oasis, The stone Roses, The Happy Mondays, Radiohead, Coldplay, The Who, Cream, Led Zeppelin (and more im sure to have forgotten)
I dont think one can say that one is more influential than the other.
But its quite ridiculous to say that the smiths are overrated... I crack The whip!

Closing Doors

Oh I agree Pablo Honey is weak, but hey its got "You" on it, which imho pisses on anything on The Stone Roses or Second Coming.

Relating to the original topic there are many many other bands more commonly cited as influences than the Smiths. You've just listed many of them (although listing Coldplay is debatable )

I meant it was infantile in that you were just lashing out at other bands, just because it appeared we liked them.

jtsuited

the smiths are ridiculously over-rated.

There...
I said it

Bixmoo

the smiths.. brilliant band and not rated highly enough in my opinion

SprostonGreen

Lunar Junkie wrote:

In a river the colour of lead
Immerse the baby’s head

One of their best songs.

My favourite ever band, they've influenced many bands and people, but you dont need the NME to spout on about them.

Peter Collins

Nobody cares if you don't like the smiths or think they're overrated...Morrissey's not going to lose sleep over it and you're going down fast in everyone's estimation

Go and listen to Bob Dylan and that crusty old load of sh1t and leave the smiths to the intelligent people in the world

What a plum

is_that_so

Peter Collins wrote:

Nobody cares if you don't like the smiths or think they're overrated...Morrissey's not going to lose sleep over it and you're going down fast in everyone's estimation

Go and listen to Bob Dylan and that crusty old load of sh1t and leave the smiths to the intelligent people in the world

What a plum

One needs to be of a certain age to "get" Morrissey and despise the "crusties". Loved Johnny Marrs guitar playing but couldn't listen to a song if I was paid.
Overrated to me.

CiaranC

The Smiths, like all great art, have a polarising effect on the audience. Its a love or hate em deal.

Personally, I think The Smiths are the greatest band of all time, bar none.

Peter Collins

CiaranC wrote:

The Smiths, like all great art, have a polarising effect on the audience. Its a love or hate em deal.

Personally, I think The Smiths are the greatest band of all time, bar none.

Correct

John

Peter Collins wrote:

Nobody cares if you don't like the smiths or think they're overrated...Morrissey's not going to lose sleep over it and you're going down fast in everyone's estimation

Go and listen to Bob Dylan and that crusty old load of sh1t and leave the smiths to the intelligent people in the world

What a plum

If you can't discuss things without resorting to insults, please don't post here.

Giblet

Peter Collins wrote:

Nobody cares if you don't like the smiths or think they're overrated...Morrissey's not going to lose sleep over it and you're going down fast in everyone's estimation

Go and listen to Bob Dylan and that crusty old load of sh1t and leave the smiths to the intelligent people in the world

What a plum

Morrissey has barely any semblance of an education and would probably be HORRIFIED at such comments!

Lunar Junkie

That's a bit of a random comment Giblet.. he didn't go to college, sure, but he attended primary and secondary school and read an awful lot himself, so I'd say he has a fairly solid education compared to a lot of musicians! In fact, it provides the inspiration for some of his music.. like 'The Headmaster Ritual'..

Giblet

Actually, I was making fun of the stupid comments by Peter Collins.

nlgbbbblth

Peter Collins wrote:

Nobody cares if you don't like the smiths or think they're overrated...Morrissey's not going to lose sleep over it and you're going down fast in everyone's estimation

Go and listen to Bob Dylan and that crusty old load of sh1t and leave the smiths to the intelligent people in the world

What a plum

Go back to RTE.

egon spengler

the music is good, but I cant stand morrissey and they are over rated imo.

Lunar Junkie

Giblet wrote:

Actually, I was making fun of the stupid comments by Peter Collins.

Oops - too easy to miss sarcasm on the internet - apologies

eoin5

MTV decreed that the Smiths are cool, and so it came to be...

aidan24326

'Morrissey comes out with the occasional gem alright but most of his lyrics are pretty simple and nothing to write home about'

This is missing the point of Morriesy's lyrics. Yes they were simple in that he didn't use any high brow language and there was nothing complex about his style of writing. But many of his lyrics are quite tongue in cheek and were never meant to be taken too seriously. He did have a wonderfully unique way of seeing things. Who else could possibly have compared loneliness to 'a punctured bicycle on a hillside, desolate...' or suggest that Joan of Arc was listening to her walkman as she burned at the stake. Such a brilliantly twisted sense of humour. Much of the problem with Morrisey's lyrics is that due to his cult hero status his lyrics have been over-analysed from every angle, inside out and to the extent that it seems some of his songs/lyrics may have taken on a more profound meaning than originally intended. Personally though I would rate him as a unique talent and I agree with those who say that the brilliance of his songwriting collaboration with Marr has rarely been equalled. Of course NME are exaggerating a bit but that doesn't come as any great surprise.

adonis

aidan24326 wrote:

'Morrissey comes out with the occasional gem alright but most of his lyrics are pretty simple and nothing to write home about'

This is missing the point of Morriesy's lyrics. Yes they were simple in that he didn't use any high brow language and there was nothing complex about his style of writing. But many of his lyrics are quite tongue in cheek and were never meant to be taken too seriously. He did have a wonderfully unique way of seeing things. Who else could possibly have compared loneliness to 'a punctured bicycle on a hillside, desolate...' or suggest that Joan of Arc was listening to her walkman as she burned at the stake. Such a brilliantly twisted sense of humour. Much of the problem with Morrisey's lyrics is that due to his cult hero status his lyrics have been over-analysed from every angle, inside out and to the extent that it seems some of his songs/lyrics may have taken on a more profound meaning than originally intended. Personally though I would rate him as a unique talent and I agree with those who say that the brilliance of his songwriting collaboration with Marr has rarely been equalled. Of course NME are exaggerating a bit but that doesn't come as any great surprise.

may i commend you on a fine first post?

goo

I don't like the Smiths and I dislike a lot of their fans.

John

But do you think they're overated?