Integration chaos

murphaph

Plenty of heated discussion over on P11 about this letter of untruths. Totally infuriating, especially given Joe Public will believe it all.

Bill McH

I can think of several cases where underground lines do not connect with overground lines under which they pass, if that helps:D

In London, Brixton has already been mentioned. The connection between Shadwell (East London line) and Shadwell (DLR) would be a fairly similar arrangement. Up from the tube, a walk of perhaps 100 metres and then up to the DLR.

In Munich the U3 line (broadly speaking travelling in a south-west to north east direction) passes beneath the S-Bahn line S7/S20/S27 (all travelling due north at this point) at Obersendling with no interchange. An interchange between the U3 and the S7 does happen later on in the journey for both sets of passengers (about 7 stops later on the U3 line and 8/9 stops later on the S7). There is no interchange between the U3 and either the S20 or S27.

Much the same kind of thing happens in Frankfurt, with the S6 line crossing the U6 and U7 lines in the suburbs, with no interchange. These lines do interchange in the city centre (6 stops later on the U lines and 5 stops later on the S line). The same S6 line crosses the U1/2/3 line in the suburbs and there is an interchange, though I'm told it would be like the "Brixton" arrangement where you must leave one station, walk down the road and and into the other station.

So, a few examples, all from the last 30 or so years.

I'd say in all of the above cases, the authorities would have provided a proper interchange if it had been possible. And by an large all of the above are examples of cities where integration would be fairly good.:p

I think Drumcondra would be a good location for an interchange station between the Maynooth line and the metro. There may also be advantages, particularly for the future, in having some kind of a connection between Tara Street station and the metro.

Zebra3

markf909 wrote:

Good call, this interchange that Metrobest keeps slating will allow one change to Swords/ Airport from anywhere along the Maynooth/ Bray corridor. Metrobest still cleary hasn't grapsed how the interconnector will change the alignment of the Dart services :rolleyes:

This will also allow for one change for commuters wanting to access the airport from as far west as Longford.

It's crucial that it's built.

mackerski

Bill McH wrote:

In London, Brixton has already been mentioned. The connection between Shadwell (East London line) and Shadwell (DLR) would be a fairly similar arrangement. Up from the tube, a walk of perhaps 100 metres and then up to the DLR.

The connection at Shadwell is fine. Surface from the tube, walk around the corner and up a flight of stairs. Not ideal with luggage, but it compares favourably with many tube-tube connections. The most annoying part of it is having to touch out and back in again.

Bill McH wrote:

In Munich the U3 line (broadly speaking travelling in a south-west to north east direction) passes beneath the S-Bahn line S7/S20/S27 (all travelling due north at this point) at Obersendling with no interchange. An interchange between the U3 and the S7 does happen later on in the journey for both sets of passengers (about 7 stops later on the U3 line and 8/9 stops later on the S7). There is no interchange between the U3 and either the S20 or S27.

Obersendling has a nominal S-bahn interchange with the crossing lines at Siemenswerke, which is right around the corner, no worse than the Shadwell example. (better, in fact, because you won't need to to any ticket juggling). According to the latest network plan, Siemenswerke is served by all three of the S-Bahn lines that pass it. To me, the reduced nature of this interchange is excusable given the fact that the majority of passengers have a much easier transfer option via a change at Marienplatz. Passengers from Munich West can easily reach any of these destinations with a combination of S-Bahn and bus.

All of the "disputed" interchanges we've seen here, of course, are far better than what's proposed for Botanic Avenue... That's a line-crossing whose location is far more comparable to Neuperlach Süd, Scheidplatz, Feldmoching or Moosach, all of which have full interchanges.

Dermot

Bill McH

mackerski wrote:

The connection at Shadwell is fine. Surface from the tube, walk around the corner and up a flight of stairs. Not ideal with luggage, but it compares favourably with many tube-tube connections. The most annoying part of it is having to touch out and back in again.

I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say that it's fine, but it is okay. Given the comparatively low numbers who use the East London line, it's probably as much as could be expected. It does, I agree, compare favourably with a lot of the tube connections - Bank/Monument being about the worst I can remember. Excusable in that case, I suppose, given the number of lines which run through the station(s). Some changes at Tottenham Court Road, for example, involve quite long walks, even though there's only two lines going through the station.

Obersendling has a nominal S-bahn interchange with the crossing lines at Siemenswerke, which is right around the corner, no worse than the Shadwell example. (better, in fact, because you won't need to to any ticket juggling). According to the latest network plan, Siemenswerke is served by all three of the S-Bahn lines that pass it. To me, the reduced nature of this interchange is excusable given the fact that the majority of passengers have a much easier transfer option via a change at Marienplatz. Passengers from Munich West can easily reach any of these destinations with a combination of S-Bahn and bus.

I'm afraid I was not aware that the Obersendling and Siemenswerke stations were around the corner from each other. I was relying on my street map of Munich, which shows them to be separated by perhaps a few hundred metres. Of course the map does not show all the entrances and exits to these stations, so I suppose that is how they can actually be quite close, as you say.

MarkoP11

Zebra3 wrote:

This will also allow for one change for commuters wanting to access the airport from as far west as Longford.

It's crucial that it's built.

On the opposite side it means a one change from as far south as Greystones, possibly even Gorey if the logical step is taken to operate Longford Dublin Gorey as one service

Its so simple, but its not on the map for the metro route consulation.

dowlingm

Bill McH - there's a difference between 100m (presumably covered walkway?) and 350m down a street I would suggest.

Victor

mackerski wrote:

The connection at Shadwell is fine. Surface from the tube, walk around the corner and up a flight of stairs.

Yeah, but it was slighly scary to realise Shadwell = Tower Hamlets.

Bill McH

dowlingm wrote:

Bill McH - there's a difference between 100m (presumably covered walkway?) and 350m down a street I would suggest.

dowlingm, I hope I've read this correctly, but the Brixton and Shadwell examples do not include a covered walkway, while the Munich one may do (I don't know). The Frankfurt example I gave would be different again because there is no S-Bahn station anywhere in the vicinity of the point where it crosses the U6/7 line. These S and U lines take different routes to get to the centre where they do meet. Mackerski's point above about bus/rail combinations in South-West Munich would hold just as well in North-West Frankfurt.

But of course, I agree totally with the basic point here. Building a metro station on the Smurfit lands, 350 or so metres from the Maynooth line, leaving people with 2 sets of steps/escalators and a hefty outdoor walk would just not be on. Particularly if there are alternatives. The one involving the metro under the Tennis club seemed like a good idea and I hope it gets looked at.

I still would, however, favour a metro route through Drumcondra, with a proper interchange there. I have no idea whether it would be easier to build an interchange there than under the Tennis club (or anywhere else), but a line through there would be almost halfway between the DART line and the Broadstone-Liffey Junction line, which will hopefully see some action before 2015. It might not seem like much, given that the two most likely locations for an interchange are pretty much at either end of the same (Whitworth) road, but I reckon that the Drumcondra option may eventually provide much greater balance on the northside - catchment areas and so forth.

Anyway, Lads, I've spotted another example in London, if anyone's interested...:)

John R

Bill McH wrote:

I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say that it's fine, but it is okay. Given the comparatively low numbers who use the East London line, it's probably as much as could be expected. It does, I agree, compare favourably with a lot of the tube connections - Bank/Monument being about the worst I can remember.

The East London line is due to be closed for 18 months for redevelopment and major extentions, it will no longer be a tube line as such but part of the main rail network.

Shadwell station is also going to be redeveloped, presumably it will make cross-line access better.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/press-releases/press-releases-content.asp?prID=525

http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/3

The big difference with most of these cases is that they are very old railways, the Dublin Metro is being built from scratch and there is no good reason to skimp on important aspects such as interconnection.

dermo88

Actually, there is a very good reason why we should'nt be integrating these lines, and leave plenty of distance between nodes. The logic would shock you if you thought of it long and carefully.

Your the Transport minister, and you meet a few of your bosses buddies at the Galway races, or Cheltenham. Business is going well, and there are a few construction contracts going around. Especially with the whole Transport 21 thing.

But things have to be "transparent", "open", "visible".

Its time to get the smoke and mirrors out and start pretending that things are actually above board, legitimate and honest. But its all legal, very legal.

This ensures that the three pillars of Fianna Fail have strong foundations. 1. Landowners, who have to be compensated, who make dubious objections to obtain compensation. 2. Contractors - we can't give the whole Metro North to Ascon (example).....we have to realise "Oh we left OUT a connecting station at Drumcondra......hmmm......why oh why did'nt we think of that before". So that means, they can give another bit of the contract to CRH, who's boss was also at the beertent, and of course, did'nt our Michael say "Shhhh.....we'll look after you for that tip in the 3.15". 3. The legal profession.

3. So the best way to milk the cow is to split it into a load of silly small little contracts. One contractor does'nt get the jackpot, a whole bunch of them do. And you know they are going to donate lots of wonga to the cummann.....don't ya.

4. Get the occasional NIMBY to make an objection, get your old lawyer buddy from secondary school...."Hows things, do you fancy a job. Things a bit quiet since Larry Goodman was around. Things a bit quiet since Haughey, since the last tribunal which found noone out".......need I go on.

So a few million more there my learned friends, while it gets delayed a bit more.

So, this is why it will take longer than we all expect. This is why we have bad planning. There is no use blaming the unions, or the workers. The real problem is the system. Its not by the people for the people. Its by Fianna Fail for the three pillars.

When the recession happens again, it will be up to an opposition Finance minister to make cutbacks, cancel the projects, and then they will be revived later, at five times the cost, thereby ensuring that the charade, and pretence of honesty and transparency continues.

Welcome to Ireland.

mackerski

Bill McH wrote:

dowlingm, I hope I've read this correctly, but the Brixton and Shadwell examples do not include a covered walkway, while the Munich one may do (I don't know).

It doesn't. In fact, I've had a fresh look at this one with the aid of Google Earth. The distance is a tad longer than I had estimated, though there does appear to be a path along the S-Bahn line that allows a shorter walk than would be possible on-street. It still looks like 450m, though, and not covered. Munich, of course, isn't as wet as Dublin. I stand by what I said about it being an unnecessary connection, and given the many other connections available to replace it, it's probably better this way than an arrangement where every S-Bahn passenger has to wait another 1:30 on the route to work.

Bill McH wrote:

Anyway, Lads, I've spotted another example in London, if anyone's interested...:)

There's the crossing of the H&C Line with the Central near White City.
Central and Picadilly/Metropolitan in Ruislip
Two crossings of Central and Pic in and around Ealing
Bakerloo & Met up Wembley direction

Special mention goes to the two non-connected Edgeware Road stations (Bakerloo is on its Todd) and the Paddington H&C station that's on the other end of the mainline platforms from the rest of the Paddington Tube lines.

Apart from the first of these, all are well out in the sticks, and there are plenty of alternative ways of getting where you're going. None are inside the circle line and none (as far as I can see) could cause people to travel right into the centre to interchange in order to reach an outlying destination.

Dermot

DerekP11

Well done lads on the research and comparisons to other European cities.

I'll make my point in three parts.

1. SPENCER DOCK.
This was a brownfield site owned by CIE. The "temporary" station will have a lifespan of ten years. The Luas extension to the point depot should be built within the next 3 years. All going well, the 350m walk will be in existance for approx. 7 years until the interconnector is built. Barry Kennys assertion that this is acceptable is based on similar examples quoted by others here. However, we must return to the original point. Spencer Dock was a brownfield site owned by CIE. There is absolutely no excuse to justify this "uncovered" and "unintegrated" 350m walk. The decision was taken on the basis of property development first, public transport second. Plain and simple. No argument. What went on in Spencer Dock is an absolute disgrace and is costing us millions in the long run.

2. METRO NORTH.
IE are not working closely with the RPA on an interchange with the Maynooth line. They are working closely on the interchange point at Stephens Green. Both sides have been steaming ahead in very different directions in relation to an interchange between Metro north and the Maynooth line. The RPA now seem to have accepted the importance of this connection, no doubt due to P11s input to the O'Reilly report, as before that it wasn't even mentioned. They prefer Drumcondra on a slight deviation. This requires nothing from IE.

3. PHOENIX PARK TUNNEL
Barry Kenny asserts that routing some Kildare line trains to the Docklands via the tunnell would compromise the planned expansion of Maynooth services and the forthcoming Pace/Dunboyne service. This is a huge red herring. Firstly IE have provided no connection between the PPT and Docklands station. According to Michael Power (Maynooth line manager) this is because the Government failed to allocate €15m for a scissors crossing at Glasnevin junction!?? Docklands station will only have 5 trains per hour serving it at peak. It is designed to take 8 to 10 trains per hour peak. Thats probably why Joe Meagher ex IE CEO told the Oireachtas committee in 2004, that some Kildare line trains would be routed to Docklands via the PPT as "there would be demand for that." His qoute, not mine. In any case the connection could have been made in Spencer Dock itself as both lines from Glasnevin junction (north and south of Croke Park) run into it. However "property development" has prevented this as buildings are to go up where the lines converge. "Brownfield site". Remember??

As regards Barry Kennys comments on the Phoenix Park Tunnell not offering any more capacity...this is off the mark somewhat. The line runs through a densely populated area. Stations could be provided at Blackhorse avenue and Cabra, thereby bringing these areas onto the rail map. A sunday service from Kildare to Pearse could be provided via the Tunnel.(no capacity issues on Sundays and currently no Sunday commuter services on the Kildare line. The only commuter line in the country without one.) As mentioned above some Kildare line services could run to Spencer Dock.

Platform 11 didn't invent the concept of utilising the park tunnell for scheduled passenger services. We only highlighted it and brought it back from the dead. CIE in the 1980s submitted plans to the Government to do the very same thing with stations in places such as Cabra. This project was then cut back to the existing and rather curtailed Kildare commuter service.

Who's interferring in real progress? Who lacks the will to make real change? Who makes the decisions that turn out to be short sighted? Why are plans that make sense suddenly compromised? Why does IE mis-manage part of its Dublin Network? These are some of the questions that everyone interested should ask. Barry Kenny won't give you the answers. He's not allowed to. Remember that his ultimate boss is the "sod turner of the year", Martin Cullen.

Chris_533976

dermo88 wrote:

Actually, there is a very good reason why we should'nt be integrating these lines, and leave plenty of distance between nodes. The logic would shock you if you thought of it long and carefully.

Your the Transport minister, and you meet a few of your bosses buddies at the Galway races, or Cheltenham. Business is going well, and there are a few construction contracts going around. Especially with the whole Transport 21 thing.

(snip)

I hate to agree with the rant but that probobly disturbingly true

Things arent done for the greater good here, they're designed to make money for certain people.

popebenny16

Have to admit going down the dermo way as well. We all know what the problems are and they can be dived into two areas:

The political one as Dermo has pointed out.

Get over that and you get

The institutional one, as Derek has pointed out.

You know what? It's a lovely day out there. Let's get out and enjoy the sun!!!

Metrobest

I stand by my comment that it's quite common for metro lines to cross under and over each other without interchanges being provided. Bill has most helpfully pointed out the London example - and I can think of others in Singapore, Kuala Lumper and Sydney. No doubt there are more. The schematic maps in metro stations don't paint the full picture of where the actual lines are located.

Yes, Frank McDonald is one of the better journalists but he's not always right. I prefer the Sunday Times and Business Post on environment/transport: Frank is prone to factual inaccuracies such as his claim that Tallaght line passengers will have to lug their bags out at Abbey when we all know there will be interchange with MetroWest. I don't like his style of reportage - it's very biased. That said, he's good at thinly-researched comment pieces. He could be good as the new Kevin Myers.

I prefer Tara Street because it's city centre, it connects to Bray-Maynooth DART and it brings Tara Street closer to Dublin's core environment. It's a win-win for DART and metro.

The Tara Street interchange is visionary but the Drumcondra interchange is reactionary. I say reactionary because it's being promoted on the basis of an ideological belief that because two railway lines cross they must "interchange". Its benefits are being overegged, just like Tony Blair's dodgy dossier.

So in summary:

* Interchanges should only be provided where suitable and practical
* Drumcondra may not be a suitable site for an interchange.
* City centre interchanges are preferable to out-of-centre sites
* Tara Street is a better and more suitable site than Drumcondra.

markf909

City centre interchanges are preferable to out-of-centre sites

Ahh excellent Metrobest you have returned.

Now would you care to explain your opinion above?

Tara Street is a better and more suitable site than Drumcondra.

Perhaps flesh out and make a valid point as to why Tara St would be better than Drumcondra. When doing so, please make refernce to the DART post interconnector, that means

Maynooth - Bray. ( with the Maynooth side having by far a larger catchment )
Hazelhatch - Balbriggan.

with the interchange between being at Pearse.

Personally, I would prefer the option of an interchange at Drumcondra, even if it means something like the Brixton example I made.

Mayshine

Hi Metrobeast,

Just to clarrify (and having lived there) - in your Singapore example, there are three underground line (red, green and purple). These lines cross in 3 different places. All these are interconnecting stations (Doby Ghaut, Raffles Place and Harbourfront).

In Raffles Place and also City hall the lines actually run in parallel above and below each other

Singapore MRT Map

They are adding a fourth line (circle line) to be completed end of the year ish). This crosses the other line in 5 places, with 4 of these inconnecting. I'm guessin from looking at the map there is no way of expanding city hall to accomodate it

Singapore Circle line



KL - also been there quite a bit - system is also fully interconnected

here --> KL Map

I haven't been to sydney, but looking at it maps it seems that there is about two instaces on their rail map where there are lines crossing without an interconnect


Say what you may but that in my book that means that when urban transit lines cross it is pretty uncommon not to find an interconnect

Then again with with Dublin, regardless of all the good points and ideas being provided by some of the activist groups, I'm feeling we'll get what we deserve.

Namely a transit system build by bickering partizan sides overseen by a corrupt and useless government, for a majority (present company excepted) of citizens whose only contribution to the project was to moan/agure/not care about it.

What we will get probably might have been considered world class in 1980, but by the time it is build every other forward thinking global city will have a much better vision and implementation of integrated public transport

dermo88

Actually, I live in KL at the moment, and it certainly is not the best example of how to do things. The bus system is chaotic. The LRT system is not integrated yet, and if you are travelling from one line to another, you have to get seperate tickets. There is NO integrated ticketting system with either KL monorail or KTMB (Malaysian Railways) Kommuter system. There is a 250 Meter walk from KL Sentral main station to KL Sentral Monorail. Changing from the Ampang line to the Kelana Jaya line requires a long walk, across a motorway, but its far from integrated. Its planned randomly, and with extreme haste. Its symptomatic of the crazy economic boom this country (Malaysia) went through until 1997, and when it all went "pear shaped", it got delayed, and had to be restarted (See my first entry on oppostion cleaning up the mess).

If thats integration, then I suggest that the Malaysians get their consultants over to Ireland fast, and "assist" Fianna Fail on the best way to milk it.

I'll give an example of this political patronage slush fund nonsense. A major double tracking and electrification project for 180km of track.

1. Supposed to be finished by 2005 and now delayed to 2008
2. The Asian trick of "creative bankruptcy" (watch for this one). Starts off under DRB Hicom, taken over by the Government who then pass it over to UEM Renong Bhd, and then now likely to be finished by 2008.

Now, Malaysians are'nt quite as able to speak as openly as we are in Ireland. But if you replaced Barisan Nasional and UMNO with Fianna Fail, there are startling parralels.

1. Many major projects go over budget and bust.
2. Many of these companies who get the contracts have relations in high places, but noone really knows that. I can't prove it, but observation alone indicates this crap is happening constantly.

We all know the best way to look after your buddies when in Government, and your supporters is to throw money around like confetti at a wedding. Award contracts left, right and centre. Rezone land in the right places. Throw 500 Euro notes like Kerry Packer in Monaco. No fear, no worries, no problems.

Compared to Singapore, KL has screwed up. Of course, in Singapore every single thing is watched. I happen to like both places. Singapore is an expensive, efficient, clean, high class answer to KL. Everything works, snap your fingers, and it happens. Its a joy to watch. There are proper checks and balances in place. But Malaysia.....no. Great country, great people, great food, pity about the Government. KL is reasonably efficient, but it has enough random chaos to make it interesting, fun and cause initiative. You'll know what I mean if you want to use public transport or taxis at 4.30 in the afternoon when the monsoon rains and lightning storms start.

As for Ireland. Don't get me started. At least Malaysia has a decent LRT system, but its far from adequate.

Mayshine

I'll admit, my experience is more Singapore based than Malaysia, so I'll defer to you on that one dermo.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

* Tara Street is a better and more suitable site than Drumcondra.

If you can't find space at Drumcondra, where are you going to find space at Tara Street?

Yes, I know there are potential sites at both, but Drumcondra would be easier for routing, finance and construction.

Better map of Singapore here:

http://www.cicred.org/Eng/Seminars/FDA/singapore-map.GIF
http://www.unsw.edu.au/images/UNSWAsia/SingaporeMap_bigweb.jpg
http://www.fareastsvcapts.com.sg/imgs/main/mrtmap.jpg

Anyone got a street map?

dermo88 wrote:

Of course, in Singapore every single thing is watched.

Of course they are. It's a one-family state.

DerekP11 wrote:

These are some of the questions that everyone interested should ask. Barry Kenny won't give you the answers. He's not allowed to. Remember that his ultimate boss is the "sod turner of the year", Martin Cullen.

Yes, sir. Colonel Jessup, SIR!.

Metrobest

Metrobeast

LOL

Perhaps flesh out and make a valid point as to why Tara St would be better than Drumcondra. When doing so, please make refernce to the DART post interconnector, that means

Maynooth - Bray. ( with the Maynooth side having by far a larger catchment )
Hazelhatch - Balbriggan.

with the interchange between being at Pearse.

I did so but just to repeat:

I prefer Tara Street because it's city centre, it connects to Bray-Maynooth DART and it brings Tara Street closer to Dublin's core environment. It's a win-win for DART and metro.

Tara Street interchange allows passengers from the Maynooth line get off at Tara Street. Via the underground travelator/walkway they can exit in sixty-ninety seconds at Trinity without having to negotiate pedestrian crossings. Having the interchange at Tara also makes it easier for a third south-westerly metro line to intergrate with the city's transport system.

MetroWest caters for many Maynooth connections to MetroNorth and the airport while Tara Streets captures Northbound connections to metroNorth from as far south as Gorey, Co Wexford.

The beauty of Tara Street is the proximity is enjoys to Dublin city centre - that's what makes it Ireland's busiest train station. Putting the futuristic interchange at Tara benefits existing passengers and attracts new ones.

If you can't find space at Drumcondra, where are you going to find space at Tara Street?

The main ticket concourse is shared with the metro station in the vicinity of Trinity; the existing Tara Street station as we know it would likely be remodelled to incorporate the travelator connecting with metro.

Drumcondra would be easier for routing...

The fastest, most direct route is via Glasnevin.

The metro can connect with Tara via travelor, then onto O'Connell Street and the central route as originally proposed. Easy as.

...construction

Relatively less disruptive in a light traffic area such as Hawkins Street than on the busiest road in north Dublin city.

Perhaps the RPA could do Dublin another favour during construction and demolish one of the world's ugliest buildings, Hawkins House.

...finance

Space leased to retail outlets along the underground walkway helps offset contruction costs. This advantage is not open to Drumcondra as the metro will surface on-street either side of the railway bridge; the existing Drumcondra station will not be modified. Not as integrated as at Tara, I might add.

Metrobest

Mayshine wrote:

Hi Metrobeast,

Just to clarrify (and having lived there) - in your Singapore example, there are three underground line (red, green and purple). These lines cross in 3 different places. All these are interconnecting stations (Doby Ghaut, Raffles Place and Harbourfront).

In Raffles Place and also City hall the lines actually run in parallel above and below each other

Singapore MRT Map

They are adding a fourth line (circle line) to be completed end of the year ish). This crosses the other line in 5 places, with 4 of these inconnecting. I'm guessin from looking at the map there is no way of expanding city hall to accomodate it

Singapore Circle line



KL - also been there quite a bit - system is also fully interconnected

here --> KL Map

I haven't been to sydney, but looking at it maps it seems that there is about two instaces on their rail map where there are lines crossing without an interconnect


Say what you may but that in my book that means that when urban transit lines cross it is pretty uncommon not to find an interconnect

Then again with with Dublin, regardless of all the good points and ideas being provided by some of the activist groups, I'm feeling we'll get what we deserve.

Namely a transit system build by bickering partizan sides overseen by a corrupt and useless government, for a majority (present company excepted) of citizens whose only contribution to the project was to moan/agure/not care about it.

What we will get probably might have been considered world class in 1980, but by the time it is build every other forward thinking global city will have a much better vision and implementation of integrated public transport

I totally agree with you that Singapore has a fantastic transport system and you'll no doubt be aware of their stunning EZLink smart cards which I think are the way forward for Dublin.

Singapore's MRT doesn't connect to the international train station - I would assume it crosses under the national railway line at some point, yet there is no interchange?

There are a few other holes in the MRT system when it comes to connecting from one line to another - for example Little India and Bugis being so close yet connections relatively cumbersome. Again, schematic maps don't paint a true picture of the lines' exact street location.

As for KL... well... how could you call that shambolic transport system "intergrated"? KL's transport system make Dublin's planning look truly Scandanavian! Just look at the perpetual rush hour day and night, the most appaling bus "service" run like something you'd see in a small African village, unconnected light rail lines.. It's just dire.

I presume Dermo 88 you have a car there?

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

The main ticket concourse is shared with the metro station in the vicinity of Trinity; the existing Tara Street station as we know it would likely be remodelled to incorporate the travelator connecting with metro.

That's very vague in fairness. Where exactly would you locate the metro station box (at least 100 metres long and 10 metres wide, at least!) so that it would be easier than the N1 at Drumcondra (straight and very wide street on a north-south axis)? The N1 has been severely disrupted for years with the Port Tunnel anyway, so what's new? The metro box would only take 12-18 months to construct which is nothing compared to the tunnel works. The N1 is so wide at Drumcondra Rd that you could probably keep it open at least to buses.

I'd also question your assertion that you could make it from train to Trinity (I assume you mean the main entrance at College Green?) in 60 to 90 seconds, underground walkway or not.

The point you made earlier about metroWest catering for Red Line passengers bound for the airport was irrelevant. You cannot expect a Red Line passenger boarding at Rialto etc. to head south west for a few miles before heading north again when a cursory look at a map shows that a route via the city centre is much more direct. Diverting the metroNorth over towards Tara at the expense of proper interchange at Abbey St is thus flawed, especially as metroNorth will be able to provide genuine quality (no travelator nonsense) interchange at Drumcondra between DART1 and metro.

Metrobest wrote:

Space leased to retail outlets along the underground walkway helps offset contruction costs. This advantage is not open to Drumcondra as the metro will surface on-street either side of the railway bridge; the existing Drumcondra station will not be modified. Not as integrated as at Tara, I might add.

If you built the metroNorth box between the Midland Line and Drumcondra Line and included a mezzanine level running the length of the station box, then you can capture travellers with plenty of retail opportunities. A future IE station on the Midland Line can be de facto connected to the existing Drumcondra Station by this sheltered mezzanine level, thus providing retail space for passengers not even using metroNorth, just interchanging between IE lines. We have to think beyond the limited vision of Iarnrod Eireann etc. to a point where all the heavy rail lines in the city are running trains and providing a real network.

dermo88

No I don't have a car here yet. I don't drive, and its a bit suicidal to drive on Malaysian roads. I do use a bicycle, (cheap....I bought it off the security guards at my condo for 20 Euro, the lock for it cost more). but thats only for short distances, and its mainly pure stubborness and a wish to keep fit that causes me to use it.

Normally in KL, I would use a taxi, but the transport system is sporadic in its quality, even though it is cheap.

Rapid KL are the new transit authority. I thought it was very funny to have a public transport (bus) company called "Rapid" KL. They were formed in 2005, and are getting their act together, but like Iarnrod Eireann......lots to do.

Malaysians themselves have no confidence in their public transport system, with the exception of the two LRT systems, which despite their somewhat haphazard planning, work like clockwork, especially the driverless train, which goes within 2km of my apartment. BUT, when compared to taxis, on price versus time, they just don't compete. There is a swipe card system. There is unlimited use of the buses, all day every day within the city centre for RM2, but the truly screwed up thing about the whole thing was that when I arrived, there were 5 transport companies between buses and trains taking care of public transport in the Klang Valley (KL) conurbation, a region of more than 3 million people.

It was, and is, a complete UMNO/Barisan Nasional slush fund funder. Mohd X gets contract to run Putra LRT, Mohd Y gets contract to run STAR LRT, Mohd Z becomes the managing director of ERL, Mohd A becomes head of KTMB, and Mohd B head of KL monorail. Of course, these guys are all Malay. There are no Chinese Malaysian or Indian Malaysian owners or directors. The whole idea is to provide jobs for the boys and there is no consideration of quality, or value for money. Unlike Singapore.....which is basically a kind of one family state (Lee Kwan Yew and family), or more accurately....one party (Peoples Action Party). They may be borderline fascist, but they know how to make things work down there, and are honest as the day is long.

Thats 5 railway companies in charge of rail based public transport in KL. All public-private partnerships, and all doing that lovely trick of creative bankruptcy. The Government is seriously free market, wants to keep fares low on one hand, while giving as little subsidy as possible. The effects tell in quality. KTMB (Malaysian mainline and electrified national railways), suffer from a lack of investment, or the money on mega projects is being siphoned off to their coffee shop buddies (nudge nudge wink wink)

Singapore.....BLISS. But I would never live there. Its just too fast moving, expensive and they never relax down there, although I like Singaporeans and Malaysians alike. Honest taxi drivers, efficient transport. The Tiger beer does not taste as if its got a Muslim brewmaster.

Now, you asked about why Singapores MRT does not connect with the International Train station. The International train station is NOT Singaporean land. Its actually Malaysian. The railway yards and station are prime real estate. The railway line and 10 meters each side of it are all Malaysian land, running right into the middle of Singapore. Singapore and Malaysia have been in a kind of cold war or words since 1965. They don't like each other, but can't live witout each other. So, Singapore does all it can to try and drive the mainline back to Johor Bahru, despite the fact that its the fastest way out of the place on a Friday or public holiday when the causeway is jammed. The PAP Government have several silly excuses to keep it from being developed, 1. Its meter gauge, whereas all MRT trackage is standard gauge. 2. KTMB would electrify it, BUT the Singapore Govt have a ban on catenery above ground. 3. Its single track. 4. Its unsafe/badly maintained.

So the public transport system in KL may be shambolic. Its cheap. It works if you know how it works, and its understandable for a Dublin native, because its not integrated, and its not that unexpected. I use the bus system for a challenge, but bring lots of deodorant and aftershave in your bag, you'll sweat like a......sheep (sorry, no pigs here)

Metrobest

Indeed, the transport system in KL and other parts of Malaysia made me nostalgic for CIE. The buses go nowhere for minutes on end while unkempt bus conductors try to drum up business, shouting random destinations at passengers on the street like a street trader on Moore Street flogging Chinese bangers. Loud music blares from the driver's crackly radio and congestion makes journey times unbearable in eight-lane streets creaking with traffic.

So I didn't see much of KL's "relaxed" side.

Thanks for the info on Singapore Int. I didn't know that about the station being on Malaysian land - it all makes sense now. Even still, Singapore has a transport system that makes Dublin look truly third world.

Unlike Singapore.....which is basically a kind of one family state (Lee Kwan Yew and family), or more accurately....one party (Peoples Action Party). They may be borderline fascist, but they know how to make things work down there, and are honest as the day is long.

It's easy to be "honest" when there's no free press. Singapore is Orwellian. Yet thanks to its booming economy - second only to Ireland in terms of globalisation - it's a very exciting city to live in, and is definately on an upward curve. The recent election results, showing a degree of independent thought exists on the island, were encouraging.

And in terms of public transport there's one lesson to take from Singapore. When you are only one view - the government view - together with a compliant media, big projects like metros and high-rise housing can be implemented with ease. Maybe we should hand the reigns of power over to Mary Harney and replace Joe Duffy with country and western music.

That's very vague in fairness. Where exactly would you locate the metro station box (at least 100 metres long and 10 metres wide, at least!) so that it would be easier than the N1 at Drumcondra (straight and very wide street on a north-south axis)?

The point you made earlier about metroWest catering for Red Line passengers bound for the airport was irrelevant. You cannot expect a Red Line passenger boarding at Rialto etc. to head south west for a few miles before heading north again when a cursory look at a map shows that a route via the city centre is much more direct. Diverting the metroNorth over towards Tara at the expense of proper interchange at Abbey St is thus flawed, especially as metroNorth will be able to provide genuine quality (no travelator nonsense) interchange at Drumcondra between DART1 and metro.

Well I know that since the earliest days of MetroNorth, the Trinity-Tara travelator idea has been floating around so presumably it is feasible from an engineering perspective. I haven't seen the plans. As I understand it, the station box is in the vicinity of the Screen cinema roughly parallel to D'Olier Street. If Hawkins House could be knocked in the process, God speed.

You mentioned Rialto. Well surely you'll agree Red Line passengers at Rialto have plenty of options aside from MetroWest. I think they would be better off changing to interconnector at Heuston and then Metro North at Stephen's Green. They have the option of changing trams at O'Connell St or they can rattle on to Spencer Dock/Connolly and change to DART. Or MetroNorth by walking to "James Joyce Central" metro stop. That's FIVE - count 'em - connections. Not so unintegrated after all!

Tell me Philip, what kind of a "proper interchange" are you hoping for at Abbey and at Drumcondra? Leaving aside Tara Street for a moment. Best case scenario at Abbey is an entrance to the O'Connell Street metro stop at the corner of Abbey/O'Connell. More likely from the latest information is a metro entrance near the Spire. Would you be happy with that?

At Drumcondra, the plans are less known - in fact there probably is no plan, because if there were, Drumcondra would have been the RPA's preferred route and it wasn't. But my guess is a metro with an entrance on Dorset Street Upper where passengers will proceed to the existing tiny Drumcondra station. Do you agree that's what's likely at this point in time, going on what information you procured at the Open Day you attended?

My reaons for Tara/Trinity I have outlined in posts above. But another, yet equally vital reason, is this. Drumcondra won't achieve the kind of quality futuristic intergration that's on offer at Tara/Trinity. Dubliners deserve 21st century solutions like travelors - not Brixton-style lip-service to the God of integration. I think the travelator would be a really cool thing for Dublin. We deserve cool things. They make the city nicer and that's a valid reason for building them. To anyone who disagrees: please explain the function of the Spire?

Dubliners are now fiercely proud of the luas and visitors from all over the world are coming to look at it and are hailing it as a style icon. When John Howard was visiting Dublin, Australian television news filmed their reports with luas gliding by in the background. Dublin never looked better.

The same would be true for the travelator. :cool:

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

You mentioned Rialto. Well surely you'll agree Red Line passengers at Rialto have plenty of options aside from MetroWest. I think they would be better off changing to interconnector at Heuston and then Metro North at Stephen's Green. They have the option of changing trams at O'Connell St or they can rattle on to Spencer Dock/Connolly and change to DART. Or MetroNorth by walking to "James Joyce Central" metro stop. That's FIVE - count 'em - connections. Not so unintegrated after all!

They're all pretty sh!te connections though. Forget about Rialto anyway, it's only one stop. What about all the stops along the Red Line from Benburb St to Abbey? They'd have a very circuitous route if they did anything other than change at Abbey.

Metrobest wrote:

Tell me Philip, what kind of a "proper interchange" are you hoping for at Abbey and at Drumcondra? Leaving aside Tara Street for a moment. Best case scenario at Abbey is an entrance to the O'Connell Street metro stop at the corner of Abbey/O'Connell. More likely from the latest information is a metro entrance near the Spire. Would you be happy with that?

I'd want the south eastern entrance to the metroNorth station to surface directly adjacent to the Luas at Abbey and the southern entrance to surface directly adjacent to the Luas O'Connell St stop (future, part of likely Bx route). The northern entrances should surface either side of O'Connell St in the vicinity of the Spire.

At Drumcondra I'm hoping for the metro box to sit along the alignment of Drumcondra Rd, exactly between the existing heavy rail lines with the north western entrance splitting, one to street level, one directly up to Drumcondra P1 and one directly up to Drumcondra P2. Long escalators, but I've ridden longer. The north eastern entrance to surface on Drumcondra Rd at street level and the south western entrance surfacing to street leel also, with the south eastern entrance surfacing to street level BUT also reserving a potential direct access to a future Midland Line station (there is room for one and it is lower than street level so a horizontal access from metro mezzanine level to heavy rail station could be achieved).

Metrobest wrote:

At Drumcondra, the plans are less known - in fact there probably is no plan, because if there were, Drumcondra would have been the RPA's preferred route and it wasn't. But my guess is a metro with an entrance on Dorset Street Upper where passengers will proceed to the existing tiny Drumcondra station. Do you agree that's what's likely at this point in time, going on what information you procured at the Open Day you attended?

I would not like to say what is planned because it's all up for grabs. The platforms at Drumcondra are more spacious than Tara Street by the way!! There's also more room to widen them, there are various buildings constraining Tara.

Metrobest wrote:

My reaons for Tara/Trinity I have outlined in posts above. But another, yet equally vital reason, is this. Drumcondra won't achieve the kind of quality futuristic intergration that's on offer at Tara/Trinity. Dubliners deserve 21st century solutions like travelors - not Brixton-style lip-service to the God of integration. I think the travelator would be a really cool thing for Dublin. We deserve cool things. They make the city nicer and that's a valid reason for building them. To anyone who disagrees: please explain the function of the Spire?

Travelators are a second best solution! You only provide them when you cannot provide vertical integration!

markf909

The platforms at Drumcondra are more spacious than Tara Street by the way!! There's also more room to widen them, there are various buildings constraining Tara.

This is very true and another reason why I would prefer to see an interchange at Drumcondra. If Metro West takes a portion of airport bound passengers from say west of the M50 then we still have an axis from the new Phoenix Park station through new developments at Ashtown all the way through to Bray who would be relying on Tara St for an interchange (via a travelator) to MetroNorth. If the interchange is at Drumcondra a nice balance can be added to the passenger loadings. If the interchange is at Tara, ( already the busiest station ) what safety guarantees are there for regular city centre pax and pax changing from DART to Metro and vice versa with the platforms being already very narrow. I feel we could be selling ourselves short here in terms of passenger throughput and ease of transfer at any Tara St interchange.

Murpaph's solution for Drumcondra is one I have envisinged myself and it will be interesting to see what the RPA come up with as they hinted that they were in favour of a hybrid alignment involving Drumcondra.

dowlingm

It's not really fair to compare Singapore with anywhere. An Taisce would probably be dubbed a terrorist organisation there. If you have a de facto one-party (or one-family) state then there's no real limit to what you can do.

dermo88

Metrobest wrote:

.It's easy to be "honest" when there's no free press. Singapore is Orwellian. Yet thanks to its booming economy - second only to Ireland in terms of globalisation - it's a very exciting city to live in, and is definately on an upward curve. The recent election results, showing a degree of independent thought exists on the island, were encouraging.

And in terms of public transport there's one lesson to take from Singapore. When you are only one view - the government view - together with a compliant media, big projects like metros and high-rise housing can be implemented with ease. Maybe we should hand the reigns of power over to Mary Harney and replace Joe Duffy with country and western music.

Theres a reason for that Orwellian approach. You can have the rule of Government, or the rule of the Triads, and all the other ethic centric gangs and groups and secret societies. The Triads run Hong Kong, but they are not even allowed breathing space in Singapore. They were very clever. Export the problem over the causeway to Johor Bahru, and let them pay off the Malaysian authorities to operate their corrupt, whore ridden, drug addled, gambling, womanising way. Every house needs its toilet, and stress relief zone, and for Singapore, its Johor Bahru. For Malaysia, its Thailand. For Hong Kong, its Macau. For Europe....maybe Amsterdam.

There was simply no choice. I make it sound worse than it actually is, but if I want anything sorted out here, I'd go to them first before the Malaysian police. But I am in a position to do that, not everyone is, and you'd want to be very careful.

In Ireland, we've had a predominantly white, catholic culture. Yes, the Irish equivalent of the Triad is without a doubt the IRA. But we speak English, and we're not out chinese out to knock the blocks off Muslims, or Indians, or Cantonese out to bump off Hokkien rivals, in a turf war, and vice versa. Singapore has the potential to turn lawless in the space of 5 years if it ever became too free and liberal. Hence the big stick approach by the state.

In Ireland we have an old city, and its hard to modernise with so many constraints. Dublin is 800 years old. Many buildings are between 200 and 300 years old. Thats why its taking so long to get anything done. There are so many competing authorities, such as county councils, city councils, transport authorities. The rights of the individual are respected over the rights of the greater good, which is the way I like it, and the way you like it.

I mean, you'd be well pissed off if the Land Transport Authority came along to demolish your home for a metro station with a 40 floor high rise Housing block, and said it was only worth 200,000 Euro, after you'd lived there 40-50-60 years, over generations, had been born there, brought up there. They'll relocate you into the tower block, and give you the compo, but the way there is people lose, and lose for the greater good.

In Dublin, land use is terribly inefficient. You have extremely low housing densities in areas right beside major rail corridors such as in Inchicore, Ballyfermot and Clondalkin. The nature of the housing there was appropriate to Dublins size and population in 1950 through to the early 1990's, but it is certainly not appropriate now. In fairness, if possible, the approach should be to do a mass CPO, compensate each householder X00,000 Euro, promise to relocate them in the new housing developments by these corridors, but this will never happen, because the construction standards of these are so good that they have survived 50 years, and will survive to at least 100. In fact most homes in the UK and Ireland are designed to last centuries, despite the changing needs. Even look at London.....where the prevailing culture and aspiration is towards "3 bedroom semi detached".

It does not happen anywhere else in a major European city, and contibutes to our problems today. There is urban sprawl in Dublin, and it is down to this idea of building low and small. Now we should be looking up instead of looking out.