Phase 2 of Ashbourne Bypass open 24 May 2006

Victor

http://www.n2finglasashbourne.ie/

It may not be the prettiest of websites, but it is informative.

NavanJunction1

Cool. No more Dunshaughlin for me..

Just looking at the map, pity they wouldn't extend it to Navan, without any tolls as well..

nordydan

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Cool. No more Dunshaughlin for me..

Just looking at the map, pity they wouldn't extend it to Navan, without any tolls as well..

Why would the extend the N2 to Navan?? Thats the N3. I think you have been sitting in traffic for too long!

europerson

That's great: it will take all that back-tracking out of it!

NavanJunction1

nordydan wrote:

Why would the extend the N2 to Navan?? Thats the N3.

Exactly - the M3 will have 2 tolls, the N2 none.

I jest but tolling arrangements are really inconsistant in Meath. The N2 was in line for tolling as well..

So Ashbourne has none, but Kells has 2... There's using your head for you..

nordydan

How much are the two along the M3 though? I have heard that the N4 to Kilbegggan will still be a more expensive road.

NavanJunction1

nordydan wrote:

How much are the two along the M3 though? I have heard that the N4 to Kilbegggan will still be a more expensive road.

At 2001 prices the NRA site said €1.06 per passage. Not unreasonable to put that on a par with the M50's €1.80 now, which would be more expensive than Kilcock. Must check it out to see if they have updated it. They were talking about extending the lifetime of the tolls so it may have been reduced recently..

Victor

nordydan wrote:

Why would the extend the N2 to Navan?? Thats the N3. I think you have been sitting in traffic for too long!

Why does Meath need 4 motorway quality roads (M1, N2, N/M3, M4) into Dublin?

And they won't build a railway. :rolleyes:

nordydan

Victor wrote:

Why does Meath need 4 motorway quality roads (M1, N2, N/M3, M4) into Dublin?

And they won't build a railway. :rolleyes:

You sit around for decades waiting for a motorway then four come along at once. After the railways are shut of course..

bazzer06

Victor wrote:

Why does Meath need 4 motorway quality roads (M1, N2, N/M3, M4) into Dublin?

And they won't build a railway. :rolleyes:

I think with the road situation in Meath, you have to look at the bigger picture.
The M1 is after all the main route to Belfast, the M3 will hopefully eventually form a decent direct route to Derry, and the M4/N6 to Sligo and Galway, and the west in general. Not sure if the same case could be made for the N2 though.

The fact is, these important routes just happen to run through Meath!

Navan Junction

bazzer06 wrote:

the M3 will hopefully eventually form a decent direct route to Derry.. Not sure if the same case could be made for the N2 though.

Yes but if you look at the map, the N2 could combine with N3 from Navan onwards.

In fairness, they are really close and the tolling arrangements are obscene.

What could you do with the savings??

Upgrade Navan Drogheda of course and reopen Navan Clonsilla.:)

And you'd still have enough to extend the railway to Kells (which will need it soon)

europerson

Navan Junction wrote:

Yes but if you look at the map, the N2 could combine with N3 from Navan onwards.

How would you link Cavan and Monaghan then? How would places like Kells be served? I don't think that plan makes sense.

nordydan

Have to agree with you here, a motorway running down the middle of the N2 and N3 with proper junctioning would have been more cost effective and the best way to ease any traffic congestion is an adequate public transport system. Money could have been used upgrading access roads to these motorways instead

Hobart

nordydan wrote:

Have to agree with you here, a motorway running down the middle of the N2 and N3 with proper junctioning would have been more cost effective and the best way to ease any traffic congestion is an adequate public transport system. Money could have been used upgrading access roads to these motorways instead

Since when did common sense play a part when it comes to designing motorways?

Navan Junction

europerson wrote:

How would you link Cavan and Monaghan then? How would places like Kells be served? I don't think that plan makes sense.

I meant Dublin - Ashbourne - Navan - Kells.

You could then use the saving per Kilometre to extend it to Cavan. Maybe.

BTW, the N2 only only runs to Ashbourne so there is no cost to Monaghan etc..

nordydan

Navan Junction wrote:

I meant Dublin - Ashbourne - Navan - Kells.

You could then use the saving per Kilometre to extend it to Cavan. Maybe.

BTW, the N2 only only runs to Ashbourne so there is no cost to Monaghan etc..

I agree, the N2 road to Derry and Monaghan is served by the N33 these days. Better to dual the N33 and rename it the N2, and call the road between ardee and ashbourne the N33. Then a new M3 could be extended as per the above.

Victor

For a start, "the M1" was built too far east. It's Dublin end should have been west of the airport, which would have resulted in a route from Drogheda to the Westlink being several km shorter. However, many of the middle class voters (and developers) in Fingal live along the coast.

MT

That's not a bad idea, Dan. It might also allow them to fix all the incorrect gantries on N2 if it were changed to N33... and pigs will fly of course.:rolleyes:

I think there could also be resistance in that an N33 running into Dublin would break the numbering sequence of national primary routes radiating from the city.

MT

Ah now Victor, you're not becoming cynical?

Victor

MT wrote:

Ah now Victor, you're not becoming cynical?

Moi?

icdg

MT wrote:

That's not a bad idea, Dan. It might also allow them to fix all the incorrect gantries on N2 if it were changed to N33... and pigs will fly of course.:rolleyes:

I think there could also be resistance in that an N33 running into Dublin would break the numbering sequence of national primary routes radiating from the city.

Doesn't stop the N81, though that's of course a national secondary route. N2 traffic for north of Ashbourne is encouraged to use the current N33 anyway to avoid Slane, so making it the official route to Derry might be worthwile.

nordydan

MT wrote:

That's not a bad idea, Dan. It might also allow them to fix all the incorrect gantries on N2 if it were changed to N33... and pigs will fly of course.:rolleyes:

I think there could also be resistance in that an N33 running into Dublin would break the numbering sequence of national primary routes radiating from the city.

Does it?

The N5 and N6 branch off the N4/M4, the N8 and N9 (and N10) branch off the M7/N7, so why not the N2 branching off the N1/M1? Its a quicker road to Dublin, true people in Slane will still use the old road but the traffic volumes between the end of the ashbourne bypass and slane will be greatly reduced if the through traffic is removed. Upgrading the current N33 would not be difficult at all, there is acres of room on either side to do so.
The new N33 could be signposted for Slane/Ashbourne, similar to the N81. It would be demoted to a national secondary route by name but would be of higher quality of course.

mysterious

nordydan wrote:

Does it?

The N5 and N6 branch off the N4/M4, the N8 and N9 (and N10) branch off the M7/N7, so why not the N2 branching off the N1/M1? Its a quicker road to Dublin, true people in Slane will still use the old road but the traffic volumes between the end of the ashbourne bypass and slane will be greatly reduced if the through traffic is removed. Upgrading the current N33 would not be difficult at all, there is acres of room on either side to do so.
The new N33 could be signposted for Slane/Ashbourne, similar to the N81. It would be demoted to a national secondary route by name but would be of higher quality of course.

Well that is already the plan, I'm not to sure where i got the information from, I think It was on the NRA website. The fingal coco had being planning the bypass for years it will act as a relief road and not just removing the existing N2 traffic.When the M1 was being built the N33 was built purposly to allow the N2 to access the M1 (as it is a significant road) even though it's not officially seen as an alternate route. There is already a noticable impact on traffic around Ardee. The N2 traffic at Ardee has dropped from just under 9,000 A.A.D.T prior to the new N33, to now just 6,000 A.A.DT The Ashbourne bypass is another agenda and has been for years, due to the growing population living there, through traffic has dropped(n2 traffic) but the town has quadrupled in the last 10 years alone.

The bypass was part of a plan for the Fingal development plan. The NRA has no intention of upgrading the N3 from Slane to Ardee or well at least the forciable future.

In the near future we will probably see The N33 officially for a better word the N2...

nordydan

They are planning a slane bypass and little else as Slane's traffic system is bollocks by any standard. To think the no. 2 (as in N2) road in any country has a one way bridge is embarrasing to be honest. There are a lot of bad bends in that road which would require an expensive redesign. It is clear that it is the plan, sure Derry is signposted from the M1 in brackets.
I would actually rename the 'old' Derry road the N82 and maybe use the N33 as a new outer ring. The N82 could have Derry in brackets signposted but would officially just be a central meath distributor road rather than a national through route.
I know that effectively that is the current arrangement but it would be nice for a formal renumbering. A free flow onto the M1 would also be nice and an eventual upgrade to DC from Ardee but the emyvale section would be a priority (I have no idea as to when it is starting though). When completed the road from Dublin to the border for derry/donegal commuters will be might fine! They are even getting rid of all the bottlenecks further north, aughnacloy and donemana bypasses being the exception. The derry strabane road might need some attention.
I don't ask for much!

Victor

nordydan wrote:

I would actually rename the 'old' Derry road the N82 and maybe use the N33 as a new outer ring.

We know what you mean but the N82 is already in use. I think the next available number is N88 (although there are a few lower numbers available now, but better left alone).

nordydan

Victor wrote:

We know what you mean but the N82 is already in use. I think the next available number is N88 (although there are a few lower numbers available now, but better left alone).

I know the N82 is already in use, but it is quite short it would provide symmetry with the N81 if necessary. The use of the N33 may be better for an extra outer ring road given that the N32 is in use as part of the M50 (sort of).

murphaph

If you were to declassify the N2 from the M50 to the N33 junction then it would have to be a national secondary or regional number you'd assign it as it would be silly to change a national primary number to another national primary number. If the N2 is upgraded from Ashbourne to Ardee with a Slane bypass and some realignments then I'd favour just leaving it as the N2. If nothing was planned then I'd favour a regional number detrunking with the N33 being renumbered to N2.

mysterious

murphaph wrote:

If you were to declassify the N2 from the M50 to the N33 junction then it would have to be a national secondary or regional number you'd assign it as it would be silly to change a national primary number to another national primary number. If the N2 is upgraded from Ashbourne to Ardee with a Slane bypass and some realignments then I'd favour just leaving it as the N2. If nothing was planned then I'd favour a regional number detrunking with the N33 being renumbered to N2.

I can garentee you the N2 will not be upgraded to the level you have stated, nor will the Slane bypass come anytime soon, plus it will probably be just a few mile stretch anyways purely to remove the bottleneck one way bridge which is third world standard... that's it, no more upgrades of the N2

In the T21 plan the route will be upgraded from Ardee to the Border, if you look at the T21 Map you will even see this the North west route Derry/Donegal) is routed from the M1>N33>N2 to the Border, and that is a better option and it will be a lot safer than using the sub standard route from Ashbourne to Ardee...

murphaph

It will be a shocking under use of the recent N2 to Ashbourne to fail to bypass Slane and provide modest upgrades of the road to allow vehicles to take advantage of what's just opened. Otherwise it's just an Ashbourne link which is outrageous IMO.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out what a dreadful waste this current N2 upgrade will be if it is only going to serve Ashbourne/Slane traffic.

mysterious

murphaph wrote:

It will be a shocking under use of the recent N2 to Ashbourne to fail to bypass Slane and provide modest upgrades of the road to allow vehicles to take advantage of what's just opened. Otherwise it's just an Ashbourne link which is outrageous IMO.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out what a dreadful waste this current N2 upgrade will be if it is only going to serve Ashbourne/Slane traffic.

yep it's awaste to a certain degree, But regards to Ashbourne, it does need every inch of new infastructure it can get...
let's face it the Fingal coco were adamant bout getting this road completed anyhow regardless of what the NRA planned to do with the title of the Derry N2 road. The Road from Ashbourne is in and around 20,000 it's slighty decreased since the new M1 link and twice the figure than Slane a third of the figure for north of Collon?. So there is some logic to this, that should explain your question somewhat.
The fugures show that the Ashbourrne Road does need a major upgrade, no harm in upgrading it to the M50 anyways especially since it being so close to the northen fringe. For the first time they actually built a road based on future predictions, ie having a 6 lane strech for a short spirt:rolleyes:

nordydan

Yeah this road will just serve ashbourne slane and other local towns. I reckon the N2 name change will happen, I believe they extended the N5 to Westport a number of years ago. Likewise the N52 replaced the old N1 south and east of Dundalk.

Victor

nordydan wrote:

Likewise the N52 replaced the old N1 south and east of Dundalk.

Not quite. The eastern bypass was always N52 and the N1 ran through the town. The only section that would have changed is the bit between the N1 and M1 at the southern end of the town.

nordydan

Victor wrote:

Not quite. The eastern bypass was always N52 and the N1 ran through the town. The only section that would have changed is the bit between the N1 and M1 at the southern end of the town.

I stand (partially) corrected.

nordydan

Can anyone tell me whether or not this road opened today??

D'Peoples Voice

murphaph wrote:

It will be a shocking under use of the recent N2 to Ashbourne to fail to bypass Slane and provide modest upgrades of the road to allow vehicles to take advantage of what's just opened. Otherwise it's just an Ashbourne link which is outrageous IMO.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out what a dreadful waste this current N2 upgrade will be if it is only going to serve Ashbourne/Slane traffic.

I know people who bought a house recently in virginia,
the developer told them that when the Ashbourne bypass is finished,
the best and cheapest way to Dublin(ie no M3 toll road) would be
N3 Virginia - Kells
R163 Kells - Slane(soon to be bypassed http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/MajorRoadSchemesinPlanning/#d.en.543)
N2 Slane - Dublin

He told them it would take 1 hour max to get to Phibsborough from Virginia taking this route.

murphaph

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

I know people who bought a house recently in virginia,
the developer told them that when the Ashbourne bypass is finished,
the best and cheapest way to Dublin(ie no M3 toll road) would be
N3 Virginia - Kells
R163 Kells - Slane(soon to be bypassed http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/MajorRoadSchemesinPlanning/#d.en.543)
N2 Slane - Dublin

He told them it would take 1 hour max to get to Phibsborough from Virginia taking this route.

He lied. It takes me roughly 1 hour to get from blanch straight out the N3 to Virginia! There's no way you could do that journey in an hour, even without traffic it takes 40 mins from blanch to Kells doing the speed limit.

mysterious

Victor wrote:

Not quite. The eastern bypass was always N52 and the N1 ran through the town. The only section that would have changed is the bit between the N1 and M1 at the southern end of the town.

As classification yes, but the eastern bypass was linked to either end of the N1 (belfast and Dublin roads) anyways.I don't see the logic as to why it was classified the N52 way before the M1 was built at the south of the town..

Sign post's on that route is (N1)(N52) though dunno about now since the M1 is flyby..

mysterious

What is the current population of Asbourne, now no exaggeration from the locals:rolleyes:

Like Dublin Peps say Dub is a milliON in Da centa.. en A MilliOn en a haaf rund the city limihs.

Dublin's pop is 1 million.. no that it has anything to do with what I'm questioning on!

dr zoidberg

About 8-10,000, last census it was 6,300 but you know what Meath CC are like for zoning land for housing.

darkman2

mysterious wrote:

What is the current population of Asbourne, now no exaggeration from the locals:rolleyes:

Like Dublin Peps say Dub is a milliON in Da centa.. en A MilliOn en a haaf rund the city limihs.

Dublin's pop is 1 million.. no that it has anything to do with what I'm questioning on!

The latest census figures are likely to show that the population of the GDA (Dublin,Meath and Kildare) may have surpassed two million for the first time and is rising rapidly. When refering to the population of 'Dublin' you must include the surrounding counties because thats were the growth is taking place. They are little more then suburbs now. Thats just my opinion.

Navan Junction

According to the Meath County Manager in this weeks Chronicle the population is 25,000

dr zoidberg

According to the Meath County Manager in this weeks Chronicle the population is 25,000

Are you sure that wasn't a projection for 2020? They'd need to build an 6,000 3 bed semis for that, there's no way they could do that in four years (not to mention the fact that Adamstown has that target population, and that as a moderate growth town the population target for Ashbourne is 5-15,000). In fact that'd probably be the greatest population increase ever of any Irish town.

Have a look at google maps, ok the sat pics are about 4 years old, but compare Leixlip (15,000 in 2002) to Ashbourne (6,300) - you'd be talking ridiculous amounts of zoning to even reach the same level, apartments nothwithstanding.

Of course it's probably just lazy journalism, we'll know in August.

I don't have a problem with it growing either, I just don't think that it's well-managed growth, and my home town is a perfect example of this - despite having hardly grown since the 80s services haven't caught up with the demand. It'd be nice to think planning has changed since then, but the fact that any plan which includes amenities and proper public transport provision seems to be designated an SDZ is hardly inspiring, the SDZs should be the model for all planning and not the exception.

Victor

Isn't Ashbourne one of the sub-divisions of Meath.

Navan Junction wrote:

According to the Meath County Manager in this weeks Chronicle the population is 25,000

That might be the entire Ashbourne area, including Rathoath, Dunboyne, Dunshaughlin & Clonee / Dunboyne.

Navan Junction

Victor wrote:

Isn't Ashbourne one of the sub-divisions of Meath.That might be the entire Ashbourne area, including Rathoath, Dunboyne, Dunshaughlin & Clonee / Dunboyne.

Sorry - Ashbourne & Ratoath. Tom Dowling was speaking at official opening of N2. However the journalist did call it the M2 in the article....................

darkman2

The road was opened at 4pm today.

nordydan

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=7585&lang=ENG&loc=1889

Taoiseach opens Ashbourne Bypass
Break line image
25 May 2006

"10,000 vehicles removed from Ashbourne"

Four months ahead of schedule, An Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, T.D., today (Thursday, 25 May 2006) opened the Ashbourne Bypass. The new Bypass will mean time savings of up to 20 minutes at peak times and will remove some 10,000 vehicles from the town of Ashbourne each day.

Speaking at the opening, an Taoiseach said: "The N2 Finglas Ashbourne route, including the Ashbourne bypass is another critical project under Transport 21. I believe that this Government has demonstrated its commitment to putting in place a high quality transport infrastructure that matches our status as one of the most dynamic economies in the world over recent years. We have already invested almost €8 billion since 1997 on transport. That was a record level of investment in transport but will seem modest in comparison to the €34 billion that will be invested in transport infrastructure over the next 10 years, under the Government's Transport 21 plans."

Joining the Taoiseach at the opening, the Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen, T.D. welcomed the completion of the project that is ahead of schedule and within budget. He said: "The N2 is a strategic North/ South link and the Government has invested almost €85m this year in major schemes along this route, including the recently completed Carrickmacross Bypass and the Castleblayney and Monaghan Bypasses, which are currently under construction. Excellent projects such as this one are clear evidence of the Government's commitment to providing a top quality transport infrastructure. It will also help in improving our economic competitiveness, in creating jobs and in achieving more balanced regional development. In fact this project together with a number of other ones in the Cavan, Meath, Louth and Monaghan areas will do more to open up these border counties than anything done heretofore."

The project involved the construction of approximately 3.5km of a new dual three lane carriageway with hard shoulder; approximately 13.5km of a new dual two lane carriageway with hard shoulder and 1.5km of new dual two lane carriageway without hard shoulder. It also includes 16 bridge structures, some 20 culverts; two grade separated interchanges, four at-grade roundabouts and approximately 6km of minor road works.

The N2 extends from Finglas, on the north west of the city through Dublin, Meath, Louth and Monaghan to the border, where it becomes the A5 route to Derry.

Navan Junction

Speech by the Taoiseach, Mr. Bertie Ahern T.D., at the Opening of the new Finglas Ashbourne Dual Carriageway.
I am delighted to be here today to formally open the Finglas to Ashbourne Dual Carriageway.

This new road will make a real and significant difference to the quality of life in this area.

The town of Ashbourne has undergone a rapid transformation in recent years. From its beginnings as a relatively small market town, it has become a thriving commuter belt of Dublin. The large growth in the population of this town has also spurred the expansion of local enterprise and retail. But an unfortunate by-product of this development has been an increase in traffic congestion and delays in the town.

The N2 is an important route linking Dublin with the North and North West. This new road development will:

· Provide an effective bypass for Ashbourne;

· Provide a safer route and reduce accidents;

· Remove long distance traffic from local roads;

· Contribute to improving economic opportunities and competitiveness for the Meath economy;

· Improve the environment for the area; and

· Provide a substantial safety dividend with reduction of vehicle, cyclist and pedestrian conflict.

Let no one be in any doubt but that the longer the delay in providing a new, safer motorway route from Dublin to Navan, the more lives will be lost. In the past 21 months alone, there have been 9 people killed and many seriously injured on the existing N3 single carriageway road. I know that there are those who wish the people of Meath and adjoining counties to continue to suffer by further delaying the M3 and suggesting a series of bypasses instead. However, I believe the hard pressed commuters from Dunshaughlin to Navan and beyond, deserve a safer, faster and better solution and this Government is anxious to build it for them.

Overall, the Government's roads programme is making a real and positive difference in people's lives.

A record 300kms of new roads will begin construction during 2006, which is three times the average length of starts over the past three years. The exchequer provision of over €1.4billion in 2006 means that the largest single investment in our nation's history will go into the National Roads Programme this year. It will bring us closer to achieving a modern inter-urban network of safe roads delivering a high level of services for road users throughout the country.

Increased road safety will be a particular benefit of this new road.

At a national level, improving road safety is a real challenge and this Government has put in place a number of important initiatives in this area.

We have established the Garda Traffic Corps, headed by an Assistant Commissioner and focused solely on road traffic matters. By the end of 2008, 1,200 Gardai will be deployed to the Traffic Corps.

Last month, the Minister for Transport implemented a major extension of the penalty points system, from five offences to a total of 35 offences, with a continued focus on driver behaviour and key safety issues.

In addition, the Government recently approved the priority drafting of the Road Traffic Bill 2006. This legislation will support the operation of privately operated cameras.

The Bill will also provide for the establishment of roadside checkpoints for “mandatory alcohol testing” at which drivers will be required to submit to a preliminary breath test.

Work on setting up the Road Safety Authority is also well advanced and will result in a more integrated approach to road safety and a more efficient driver testing and licensing system.

This new route will help in the achievement of the Government’s Road Safety Strategy.

Major benefits should also be seen from a reduction in peak hour congestion in Ashbourne. The bypass will eliminate the heavy commercial vehicles that have been a major contributor to this problem.

Ashbourne will also be able to enjoy a reduction in noise and air pollution due to the reduction in traffic levels.

The N2 improvement will provide new economic opportunities by improving communications between the Ashbourne area and the commercial and industrial estates in North Dublin.

The reduction in transport costs will have an impact on the overall economy of Ireland by improving competitiveness in the production and export of goods. The improvement of the internal road transport infrastructure between the regions and within regions, will contribute to the competitiveness of the productive sector and to balanced regional development.

You will be particularly pleased to hear that the expected time saving of using the entire new N2 route is 20 to 25 minutes, based on average times taken.

It has been my pleasure to be here today. The many benefits arising from the Finglas Ashbourne Dual Carriageway can now be enjoyed with immediate effect.

25th May 2006

ENDS

D'Peoples Voice

Navan Junction wrote:

Speech by the Taoiseach, Mr. Bertie Ahern T.D.,

Let no one be in any doubt but that the longer the delay in providing a new, safer motorway route from Dublin to Navan, the more lives will be lost. However, I believe the hard pressed commuters from Dunshaughlin to Navan and beyond, deserve a safer, faster and better solution and this Government is anxious to build it for them.

Well Bertie for the hard pressed commuters you should build the bloody rail link and for the frieght transport companies just build bypasses around the bottlenecks! then you would have no delays!!!

Hoof Hearted

Does anyone know why 4 at grade roundabouts were built. I feel these roundabouts will significantly reduce the benifits of the road both from a capacity and safety standpoint. As the usage of the road increases tailbacks are going to form at roundabouts which will increase fuel consumption and exhaust emissions. Where are the roundabouts located?

darkman2

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Well Bertie for the hard pressed commuters you should build the bloody rail link and for the frieght transport companies just build bypasses around the bottlenecks! then you would have no delays!!!

I think he is right about the M3. Its being delayed for no reason whatsoever by those who are anti motorway. Tara is just an excuse. Build the rail line too btw.

MicraBoy

Does anyone know why 4 at grade roundabouts were built. I feel these roundabouts will significantly reduce the benifits of the road both from a capacity and safety standpoint. As the usage of the road increases tailbacks are going to form at roundabouts which will increase fuel consumption and exhaust emissions. Where are the roundabouts located?

http://www.n2finglasashbourne.ie/intersection_map.htm

The three of the roundabouts are on the old road. The fourth is at the end of the off ramp at Cherryhound and is 3 lanes. I don't see a problem with any of them. Except perhaps at the Rath where the inevitable end of the bypass bottleneck might occur.