Another example of greed in public sector transport unions

aliveandkicking

shltter wrote:

You have no evidence to back up your claim only hearsay that you allege some one told you.

Right I assume you are insinuating I am a liar and making this all up because I have nothing better to do than spend my time thinking up crackpot stories about the internal working practices of Dublin Bus and its unions. If thats what you think, I'm not going to argue any further with you about it, I'll let other posters judge for themselves.

shltter wrote:

I have never seen a route made shorter .

Late 90's or early 2000/1 route 19A (or could have been 19) stopped running to Rialto and instead terminated at Kelly's Corner which is at the top of Camden Street. That was a considerable shortening of the route (at least 4km less). I wonder did the drivers give any money back to the company for driving a shorter route? No of course not because they were still working the same amount of hours per day.

Metrobest

The way they are holding up service improvements to customers because of logical changes to their work practices shows how increasingly out of touch with reality the CIE trade unions have become. But hey, why break with tradition?

Unions were set up to make sure workers were treated fairly, their rights protected and their labour not being exploited. Across the globe the union movement was at its strongest when general economic conditions were poor, employment law was weak and there was a hierarchical culture in which the weakest were exploited.

The rules of the game have changed. Economic conditions have improved beyond recognition. Ireland has one of the highest minimum wages in the world and features one of the lowest tax regimes. Irish workers, including CIE employees, have never had it so good. Some of the world's strongest, most anti-employer legislation protects workers from being exploited, underpaid, or unfairly dismissed. And rightly so. Accordingly trade unions have become increasingly irrelevent in the private sector. Except from the annoyance they cause when trains are delayed and people can't get to work, or buses can't serve customers because the unions are demanding spurious one-off payments.

Work practices change all the time; no job can or should be the same for life. It is not unreasonable for an employer to ask an employee to perform a new task or change his/her work in order to improve the service of that company. The employee has a right to be consulted, listened to. Then a decision needs to be taken. Are the employee's concerns valid? If they aren't valid - and in this case they most certainly aren't - then the employer must take a stand and say to Anto and Dekko: "there's plenty of other jobs other there. You're unlikely to walk into a job in the private sector with the pay, terms and conditions, and security of this position. The choice is yours."

Rather than serve their true purpose, the CIE emplyees/unions have morphed hideously into a blood-sucking spider. In their comfortable web of job security they bask, doing nothing all day, clocking up the hours. Then they spot an opportunity to extract more money from the taxpayer and they pounce, fangs akimbo.

I blame successive governments for this. Unfortuntely we never had a Margaret Thatcher-style leader to remove the poision from the fangs of the CIE unions. We instead get "socialist" Bertie Ahern who regularly lovebombs the trade union movement.

A disfunctional culture has formed in CIE where management sit back and monitor their generous pension funds while employees and trade unions prevent even the slightest changes to work practices - changes which would benefit the passengers who pay their wages. There's only one thing for it: shut CIE.

MiniD

shltter wrote:

It is not an ongoing payment it is a once off payment

It is in recognition of the extra work involved the labour court have ruled on these and agreed that the small once off payments are justified.

I have never seen a route made shorter but even if it was it would involve extra work as Drivers would be the ones who would have to explain to passengers that they were not going the 750 metres extra so whether it gets shorter or longer there is more work involved whether it is extra driving or extra work explaining the new arrangements and taking it in the neck from those that are not happy it involves extra work.


We are talking small ammounts of money here no more than a couple of hundred euros


And Finallly this is not holding up the change because even if there was a dispute over payment the change goes ahead and the matter is refered to the labour court

I find it worrying that as a person employed to deal with the public, you feel it is some kind of extra task to inform customers of any route changes. You also seem to think that because it is a small once off payment of a couple of hundred euro that somehow it is ok? As someone already mentioned, when it comes to route changes, Dublin Bus usually have a newspaper advertisement of the changes and there is very often an on street presence of customer service staff. So a passenger asks you where the new terminus is, hardly a massive task now is it? If you were in a restaurant and you asked the cashier where to find the toilets following a refurbishment, would you think it is right for that staff member to get a few hundred euro to divulge the information?

You are being paid to drive for x amount of hours a day, not for distance.

As for routes being shortened:
Route 3 had a lot of it's journeys shortened to serve the Southside only (route 2).
Route 18 had a lot of it's journeys running only to Palmerstown Cemetary rather than cross the N4 to Old Lucan Road.
Route 31B recently had it's route shortened to only serve Howth Summit rather than carry on to Howth Dart Station.
Route 41C was recently altered not to serve the Airport.
Route 51B had it's routing shortened to give a more direct service to Grange Castle (introduction of 51C).

Although there have been lots of extensions of routes in recent years, I somehow doubt the drivers on the above routes offered Dublin Bus a once off payment of a few hundred euro in recognition of the shorter distance.

MarkoP11

On one level its the duty of the union to seek the best possible deal for its members so if anything changes its a foot in the door. That said I think the senior union people are the ones truly to blame by taking futile cases just because they can. Whats said about this is when a legitimate case comes up it will be like a boy who cried wolf

Example working time act meant that over time opportunity for bus drivers in Dublin Bus was reduced, strike was threatened absolutely no point as it was an EU regulation that Dublin Bus and other operators had to enforce. Overtime is overtime its not guaranteed

End of the day if if work for Dublin Bus you will end up driving a bus around Dublin unless the union agreement is laid out to detail the precise location of each route and bus stop which I doubt it is no way should money be handed over

Dublin Bus need to do what Irish Rail management did, they pulled a very clever move 6 years ago but getting the unions to agree that introduction of new rolling stock/technology would not be cause for a claim, twice in the last 6 months the unions have tried to weasel money out of the company based on new stock, labour court ruled that the 2000 agreement allowed for that and the unions had no claim. Unions didn't agree and threatened unofficial action and a face off ensued and management won, face off 2 is Cork tomorrow. The unions knew all this but still wasted taxpayers money just because they can

Dublin Bus management are in the don't rock the boat mindset much easier life to write a few cheques

spareman

shltter wrote:

I never said anyone gets anything when a timetable changes nobody gets anything for a timetable change.

But when a route changes then the spare drivers in the garage in question get a pro rata payment smaller than the payment for marked in drivers in line with the fact that they don't work the road as much.

Really? Im in the job 2 years and havent recieved one cent for changes to routes or new bills/ timetables.

parsi

TBH..

The Union gets it dues on the condition that it supports the workers and puts forwards their claims.

Management on the other hand have an obligation to figure out whether they can accept these terms or face the unions down.

The criticism should be levelled at management who seem to be prepared to lie down and let the Unions walk over them and God knows any Union worth its salt would keep pushing them if it's like such an open door.

At my place of work our Union wouldn't countenance such claims, then again our management has faced down the Unions before..

Transport21 Fan

parsi wrote:

The criticism should be levelled at management who seem to be prepared to lie down and let the Unions walk over them and God knows any Union worth its salt would keep pushing them if it's like such an open door.

I think it is time we strapped a couple of booster rockets to the side of Liberty Hall and point it towards Uranus.

shltter

Not one of you answered the question if you were offered the money would you take it.

So lets take the logical conclusion then why should anyone get a christmas bonus(BTW dublin bus do NOT pay a christmas bonus) you dont work any harder that week you are already being paid. I presume any of you who do receive such a payment will be returning it to your employer.

Sick pay why should an employer pay anyone who is not well enough to work and what about those greedy unions who request sorry DEMAND EXTORT This money from the poor employer. I presume you guys will be refusing those payments as well.

paulm17781

Of course I'd take money if it was offered to me. I wouldn't strike if it wasn't though.

I got a Christmas bonus this year, totally unexpected. Do you know why I got it? Because I worked very hard all year and it was to thank me for that. Had I not gotten it I wouldn't have gone on strike.

you dont work any harder that week you are already being paid.

That says it all. I work hard all year and got a bonus. You imply that one weeks hard work deserves a bonus.

shltter

paulm17781 wrote:

I once had to do a training course in Crumlin, that is the other side of the city to where I work and I didn't get paid any extra for that either.

There was also one time when I got wet going to work.

Let us not forget the time loads of people were late and I had to answer a few people's phones. I had a lot of stress that morning. I had to lift my handset and press both the digits '6' and '8' to answer. In previous jobs I had to press '9' so I was doing twice the work of a normal job. Then, after answering the phone I had to speak to the person I then had the stress of explaining that whichever colleage hadn't arrived in yet. There were a few instances where I had to take a message, my middle finger still hurts sometimes where the pen was resting. By 10 I had two nervous breakdowns and a stroke. The company really owe me for that morning.

We don't have a union in work but from my above examples you can tell it is clear one is needed for this kind of injustice to the working man. Does anyone else here have tails of hardship and mis-treatment in the workplace. I am sure I am not alone in working in substandard conditions such as these.

Dublin Bus sends Drivers on training/safety courses that also involves extra travel and frequently extra hours work compared to the normal shift
NO extra payment is made.

We are talking about a long term significant change in work practises for which a small payment is made.
It is in keeping with the terms of the National pay agreement and approved by the labour relations machinery of this state.




My advice

Get off your ass and join a union

murphaph

shltter wrote:

Not one of you answered the question if you were offered the money would you take it.

If an employer offered me more money it would be for a valid reason, so I'd take it. Driving 750m further down the road is not such a valid reason.

shltter wrote:

So lets take the logical conclusion then why should anyone get a christmas bonus(BTW dublin bus do NOT pay a christmas bonus) you dont work any harder that week you are already being paid. I presume any of you who do receive such a payment will be returning it to your employer.

Some people earn 13 months salary a year, the extra month being paid in December. Some employers pay a bonus for the individual employee's contribution to the company. My compan does this once a year but it's not in December so no xmas bonus for me either.

shltter wrote:

Sick pay why should an employer pay anyone who is not well enough to work and what about those greedy unions who request sorry DEMAND EXTORT This money from the poor employer. I presume you guys will be refusing those payments as well.

An employer is not bound to pay for days off sick. It's up to you to claim for this from the Dept. of Social Welfare. There is no such thing in irish law as "sick pay". You are medically unfit for work and can claim welfare for this.

murphaph

shltter wrote:

My advice

Get off your ass and join a union

Shltter, it's people like Paul and myself who work in the private sector for companies who wouldn't tolerate your childish union's whims that actually generate the wealth for this country. The public sector does not generate wealth. That is done by the private sector and our taxes pay for public services.

If I joined a union and they started demanding extra money for me when I'm given a new piece of technology to use, or have to walk a bit further to a different meeting room, the company would just tell us all to fcuk off and move to Poland (and rightly so, there's only so much sh!te any private company would tolerate-the pblic sector on the other hand........)

When enough private companies had left, the tax take would fall so much that even the money for your union's panderings would dry up and you might find yourself on the dole too.

shltter

paulm17781 wrote:

Of course I'd take money if it was offered to me. I wouldn't strike if it wasn't though.

I got a Christmas bonus this year, totally unexpected. Do you know why I got it? Because I worked very hard all year and it was to thank me for that. Had I not gotten it I wouldn't have gone on strike.



That says it all. I work hard all year and got a bonus. You imply that one weeks hard work deserves a bonus.

Who said anything about strike I have not heard anyone mentioning a strike.

The union put in a claim the company agree or disagree they negotiate if they cannot agree then it goes to the Labour court who then decides.


No matter how hard I work all year or the next 30 years I will never get an unexpected bonus from DB
Luckily for you your employer recognises extra effort and rewards it DB does not so if you do not ask you will not get.

shltter

murphaph wrote:

If an employer offered me more money it would be for a valid reason, so I'd take it. Driving 750m further down the road is not such a valid reason.

In your opinion.

murphaph wrote:

Some people earn 13 months salary a year, the extra month being paid in December. Some employers pay a bonus for the individual employee's contribution to the company. My compan does this once a year but it's not in December so no xmas bonus for me either.


An employer is not bound to pay for days off sick. It's up to you to claim for this from the Dept. of Social Welfare. There is no such thing in irish law as "sick pay". You are medically unfit for work and can claim welfare for this.

I never said an employer was bound to pay sick leave that is my point although some employers do pay their employees for a certain ammount of sick time. The logic of peoples arguements here is that no company should ever pay sick pay or indeed Xmas bonuses.
And if you take it or have the cheek to ask for it you are greedy.

_Kaiser_

shltter wrote:

We are talking about a long term significant change in work practises for which a small payment is made.
It is in keeping with the terms of the National pay agreement and approved by the labour relations machinery of this state.




My advice

Get off your ass and join a union

Please explain to us how driving 750m futher down a road qualifies as a significant change in work practises???

If I understand you correctly, you then go on to suggest that we should all go out to actively extort money from our employers by joining a union??

As I stated earlier, which you didn't respond to I notice, the best thing that could happen to Dublin Bus and the travelling public is that staff like you be given a choice: Do the job you're being paid to do, or get out.

murphaph

shltter wrote:

No matter how hard I work all year or the next 30 years I will never get an unexpected bonus from DB
Luckily for you your employer recognises extra effort and rewards it DB does not so if you do not ask you will not get.

It's a free country Shltter. You are free to leave DB and get another job. That's what my employer would say if I started making unreasonable demands and they'd be right!

shltter

murphaph wrote:

Shltter, it's people like Paul and myself who work in the private sector for companies who wouldn't tolerate your childish union's whims that actually generate the wealth for this country. The public sector does not generate wealth. That is done by the private sector and our taxes pay for public services.

If I joined a union and they started demanding extra money for me when I'm given a new piece of technology to use, or have to walk a bit further to a different meeting room, the company would just tell us all to fcuk off and move to Poland (and rightly so, there's only so much sh!te any private company would tolerate-the pblic sector on the other hand........)

When enough private companies had left, the tax take would fall so much that even the money for your union's panderings would dry up and you might find yourself on the dole too.

The company I work for provides a service that the Government pays towards the same as it does for many private sector companies who provide goods and services to the state.

No matter who was providing that service it would still have to be paid for and in reality the state would pay alot more if it was a private sector company.
Look at the subvention to private companies in the UK providing Public transport compared to before privatisation.

shltter

murphaph wrote:

It's a free country Shltter. You are free to leave DB and get another job. That's what my employer would say if I started making unreasonable demands and they'd be right!

Of course and you are free to come to DB and work here if you think life is so handy here.

shltter

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Please explain to us how driving 750m futher down a road qualifies as a significant change in work practises???

If I understand you correctly, you then go on to suggest that we should all go out to actively extort money from our employers by joining a union??

As I stated earlier, which you didn't respond to I notice, the best thing that could happen to Dublin Bus and the travelling public is that staff like you be given a choice: Do the job you're being paid to do, or get out.

I see so you know better than the Labour court is that right


I do the job I am getting paid for in well over a decade working for DB I have never had one passenger complaint nor have I had any accidents (touch wood)

murphaph

shltter wrote:

Of course and you are free to come to DB and work here if you think life is so handy here.

I don't want to drive a bus for a living, it's not my area, but you neatly danced around the issue. This is a free country with a buoyant economy. You make out like working for DB is akin to being a slave in a roman galley ship, yet you stay working for them. If it's so bad, move, go work for Dualway, Barton's, Morton's, AMC etc. etc. The truth is that you know you have a nice job for life and aren't about to jack it in any time soon

murphaph

shltter wrote:

The company I work for provides a service that the Government pays towards the same as it does for many private sector companies who provide goods and services to the state.

No matter who was providing that service it would still have to be paid for and in reality the state would pay alot more if it was a private sector company.
Look at the subvention to private companies in the UK providing Public transport compared to before privatisation.

You totally misunderstood my point. My point was simple. You advised Paul to join a union (despite him being happy to work hard for fair reward). I simply pointed out to you that if al of us in the private sector had your attitude and encouraged our unions to make frivilous claims for no extra work, we'd all find our employer's p!ssing off to another country. Then you'd have NO TAX TAKE for the exchequer to pay for any services, including paying your wages. I couldn't care less if DB is a private company or a public one, so long as the company is run well. I never mentioned privatisation which is what you replied to! To used to defending the public sector methinks :rolleyes:

shltter

murphaph wrote:

I don't want to drive a bus for a living, it's not my area, but you neatly danced around the issue. This is a free country with a buoyant economy. You make out like working for DB is akin to being a slave in a roman galley ship, yet you stay working for them. If it's so bad, move, go work for Dualway, Barton's, Morton's, AMC etc. etc. The truth is that you know you have a nice job for life and aren't about to jack it in any time soon

I never said anything of the sort

My point is that it is not some soviet workers paradise it has its good points and it has its bad points and in my view if there was no trade unions here it would be an awful lot worse. When you see some of the **** they try and get away with when there are unions.

People take one particular issue like this (BTW I have never been paid any money for any route change) and try to extrapolate from it that DB is operated purely for the benefit of the trade union movement. It is far from it.

Same with your comment about a job for life I dont have a job for life if I don't do the job I am being paid for I will get the boot the same as any other company people are fired out of here all the time.

shltter

murphaph wrote:

You totally misunderstood my point. My point was simple. You advised Paul to join a union (despite him being happy to work hard for fair reward). I simply pointed out to you that if al of us in the private sector had your attitude and encouraged our unions to make frivilous claims for no extra work, we'd all find our employer's p!ssing off to another country. Then you'd have NO TAX TAKE for the exchequer to pay for any services, including paying your wages. I couldn't care less if DB is a private company or a public one, so long as the company is run well. I never mentioned privatisation which is what you replied to! To used to defending the public sector methinks :rolleyes:

your insinuation is that people in unions are not happy to work for fair reward

Iam happy to work for fair reward but everyones opinion of what a fair reward constitutes is different

My advice was that if Paul is not happy join a union if you choose not to join a union dont bitch and moan about the benefits people who have joined unions have.

All a union is a collective way of selling your labour to maximise the return for everyone in the union. If you choose to go alone selling your labour and don't get as good a deal that is your choice.

MiniD

Shltter, do you not understand, you are being paid to drive by the hour, not by distance. If it was the case that drivers did get paid by distance then there would be big differences in pay, with drivers working the 66 route being paid more than those working the 25, purely because Maynooth is further than Lucan, that is not how it works and I'm sure when you joined Dublin Bus 10 years ago you realised that routes were subject to being extended, I'm also presuming you agreed to the conditions of employment which state you get paid by the hour with the relevent overtime. Saying you deserve a payment because the public may ask you for help is ridiculous, your job involves dealing with the public so if the public has a query then it is your role to deal with them as best possible.

Comparing a christmas bonus to this situation where drivers want payment for driving an extra 3 stops is silly, it is a totally different argument.

shltter

MiniD wrote:

Shltter, do you not understand, you are being paid to drive by the hour, not by distance. If it was the case that drivers did get paid by distance then there would be big differences in pay, with drivers working the 66 route being paid more than those working the 25, purely because Maynooth is further than Lucan, that is not how it works and I'm sure when you joined Dublin Bus 10 years ago you realised that routes were subject to being extended, I'm also presuming you agreed to the conditions of employment which state you get paid by the hour with the relevent overtime. Saying you deserve a payment because the public may ask you for help is ridiculous, your job involves dealing with the public so if the public has a query then it is your role to deal with them as best possible.

Comparing a christmas bonus to this situation where drivers want payment for driving an extra 3 stops is silly, it is a totally different argument.

Actually we don't get paid by the hour

And it is a once of small payment for extra productivity

And why is it different because you get a christmas bonus

MiniD

shltter wrote:

Actually we don't get paid by the hour

And it is a once of small payment for extra productivity

And why is it different because you get a christmas bonus

Well how do you get paid? I was under the impression you got paid for working an x hour week, and any extra hours worked over that was overtime. But you do agree you do not get paid on the distance you drive?

To say the payment is for extra productivity again spins back to my point that you work in a customer service position, you mentioned in an earlier post that this involves helping customer queries, this is your job is it not?

As for the christmas bonus, well, I've yet to hear of any employers refusing to work on the basis of not getting a christmas bonus. Many companies don't give bounses at christmas, some throw a party instead. A bonus is exactly what it is, a bonus, not something to be expected.

paulm17781

I think I'm going to bow out of this one as it is the never ending debate here. One thing though...

Did you really think the hardship of my post where I had to dial 68 to answer the phone as opposde to just 9 was serious? Did you actually think I was saying I was unhappy with my employer because of minor things like that? I can't see why else you would say to me to join a union. It just goes to show what you think is additional hard work. :rolleyes:

spareman

paulm17781 wrote:

I work in software. I frequently work long hours with no overtime as I take it as a part of my job.

That's all going to change from now on :rolleyes:

Work for free and you will always have a job:p

paulm17781

spareman wrote:

Work for free and you will always have a job:p

More a case of work hard and people will want to give you a job. Maybe even the odd bonus.

jd

paulm17781 wrote:

More a case of work hard and people will want to give you a job. Maybe even the odd bonus.

No one should object to working extra when the situation demands it- eg deadlines, system failures etc. A long hours culture is not sustainable for people in the long term (by that I mean 60+ hours a week). You'd be carried out of your office in a stretcher before you are 50.
Oh- and if you have your work done you shouldn't feel guilty about leave at 5.30 pm or 6pm or whatever time you are meant to finish-that desk-jockey nonesese is a pain in the arse