Bilingual signs

Keedowah

Aidan1 - i agree with a lot of what your saying - in particular:

Roadsignage should reflect this, English with Irish underneath in most of the country, the inverse in Gaeltacht areas.

That just makes sense to me - and I dont want to be political about the thing - its just about information!

But I think this is a little poor on your part:

To a large degree, these areas continue to exist to qualify for the additional funding in place for them.

NavanJunction1

Aidan1 wrote:

English is their native language.

No English can never be the 'native' language on this island because the language is not native to Ireland.

The only place English is the native language is in England.

Widely spoken language yes, native language no.

Aidan1 wrote:

This has been the case for at least 150 years.

Not true. 80%+ still spoke it at the turn of last century. Dramatic reduction in daily use occured in the 30 years after that.

It's not politics. It's choice. Nobody is removing your right to chose, why aspire to take away the choice of others?

murphaph

NavanJunction1 wrote:

No English can never be the 'native' language on this island because the language is not native to Ireland.

The only place English is the native language is in England.

Widely spoken language yes, native language no.

I'd disagree there. At what point did modern English cease developing? Answer: It hasn't. All ;languages continue to develop, otherwise we wouldn't need to print updated dictionaries. We have taken English and added plenty of words to it from this island. I'd say that makes it native at this stage. Remember that English wasn't just 'invented' one day in England. The Angles and the Saxons and the Jutes brought their germanic languages with them from Europe and they were influenced by others such as the Norse and of course French! For example, the word Castle was brought by the Normans, simply because the Anglo-Saxons didn't have castles so they just copied the word the Normans used to describe the thing. The same thing happens today!

Another way of loking at it is this: Ancient languages in England were usurped by the languages brought in by the Angles et al and these languages were the foreunners of English. So the native language of England is whatever the prytannae (ancient tribes who lived across the British Isles and who give us the word Brittanae) spoke.

ou see it is difficult to categorise languages, but more importantly it simply doesn't matter. What language was first spoken where because undoubtledly the ancient tribes of this island did not speak what we would call Irish. The simple fact is that English is the first language of something like 99% of the population.

Nobodyis calling for the wiping out of Irish, quite the contrary-I am happy to se my taxes spent on language programmes and meaningful ways of preserving and encouaging the language to grow. I am not in favour of ridiculous policies such as compulsory bilingualism on roadsigns that as NavanJunction pointed out haven't helped the declinein Irish at all!

Aidan1

Not true. 80%+ still spoke it at the turn of last century

Do you mean 'could speak it' or 'spoke it as their primary language in every day use'? I'd love to see figures for that.

Its very much a matter of contention, but the generally accepted version runs that by the early 19thC the proportions were hovering around 50:50, and even that was mainly because of the very large population growth in the poorer areas of the west that still had a majority of speakers in the period 1780-1841. The language had been in terminal decline for at least 2 centuries by that point. After the 1840s, with the very large changes in population, the proportion of people speaking the language fell very dramatically.

As for Irish being the 'native' language, it arrived here, at some point from abroad. Its an import too, after all. It has been modified, as has its variants elsewhere, by contacts with other cultures, but it is still a branch of a linguistic tree, not a trunk. All that has happened is that one language has been replaced as the lingua franca. Irish, for most of us is an historical artifact. Its vital to our culture and understanding of our history, and should be kept alive as part of both. But channeling post colonial guilt into policies on the subject have never helped the language, or the country. Issues like road signage are just that, functional issues that relate to the running of a modern state. By all means, have road signs bilingual, if nothing else it will help to keep Irish placenames alive and in use to a degree. But descending into lingual totalitarianism helps no one. Specially if you're lost in Kerry with a map in English and all the road signs are in Irish ...

biko

luckat wrote:

The sheer hatred of Irish by some Irish people always amuses me, and baffles me a little.

Grammar is the killer. Also how often you come in contact with it. I use Irish most every day but would not have whole conversations in it.

NavanJunction1

murphaph wrote:

At what point did modern English cease developing? Answer: It hasn't.

Read my earlier post - that's what i said. It's just language.

And poor sign-posts are just that - poor sign-posts.

2 different issues.

Again, attack the sign-post, not the language on it.

If you want to describe your self as an 'English Native' that's fine by me..:)

Aidan1 wrote:

descending into lingual totalitarianism helps no one.

Read my earlier post - it's about choice. Removing Gaelic is totalitarian - having both languages is compromise. I believe in compromise.

murphaph wrote:

ridiculous policies such as compulsory bilingualism on roadsigns.

You prefer compulsory monolingualism?

Aidan1

it's about choice. Removing Gaelic is totalitarian - having both languages is compromise. I believe in compromise.

I'm in favour of bilingualism too, just everywhere, including in Minister O'Cuivs fiefdoms.

you want to describe your self as an 'English Native'

Not addressed to me I know, but still, its a wilful miss use of the phraseology. Just because I'm a native english speaker, does not make me 'English'. Nor does it, for that matter, make me any less Irish.

Slight distinction there ...

Chris_533976

I really cant understand why Irish & English have to be on signs. National identity and all that old crap aside, face facts.

People outside the Gaeltacht dont need to read the Irish, they read the English.
People who live in the Gaeltacht can read English anyway, so they dont need the Irish.

I think its a complete and utter waste of time and adds a ton of unnecessary clutter to already cluttered signs. If people INSIST on having Irish on the sign as well, make the Irish smaller than it is.

NavanJunction1

Aidan1 wrote:

a wilful miss use of the phraseology. Just because I'm a native english speaker, does not make me 'English'. Nor does it, for that matter, make me any less Irish.

Check earlier post about English being native to Ireland, and not. Native means native, not adopted. English is adopted, or whatever term you prefer.

Hate to break it but none of you will ever be native English speakers, not unless you grew up in England. You have to look at the place you live for what it is not what you would like it to be..

Look, I have no problem at all with how people view themselves, or whichever language spoken. It is just language, just as identity is subjective.

Each to their own, and many people identify with their Gaelic heritage and a good proportion of those can speak the language.

If you do view yourself as a 'native English speaker' that's fine by me - Ireland is a complex place. This island has been multi-cultural for a long, long time.

But respect others, and don't try to deny choice - enforced denial of choice seldom achieves it's purpose - try to be generous in your thinking...

And maybe just agree to disagree..:)

murphaph

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Check earlier post about English being native to Ireland, and not. Native means native, not adopted. English is adopted, or whatever term you prefer.

And Irish was adopted at some point too, as Aidan pointed out-it is a branch of a linguistic tree, not a trunk or indeed root. It just happened to get here before English.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Hate to break it but none of you will ever be native English speakers, not unless you grew up in England. You have to look at the place you live for what it is not what you would like it to be..

I am a native English speaker. If English was called wazzawazzagoogoo and not named after a country, would you then be able to accept me as a native speaker of that language? If I grow up in New York to parents from na Forbacha and thy teach me Irish as my first language, am I not a native Irish speaker because I grew up outside Ireland? Think about it.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

But respect others, and don't try to deny choice - enforced denial of choice seldom achieves it's purpose - try to be generous in your thinking...

Well I'd agree with you there to a point. The choice to us native English speakers has of course been denied in parts of our our country by O'Cuiv and his ilk. They have done it out of a love for Irish/Hate for English whatever, I am in favour of the same for the English speaking parts of Ireland but for signage clarity reasons.

SeanW

I grew up and have lived in Ireland most of my life.

English is my language. That, I believe, makes me a native English speaker. Beginning, Middle, End of story. So are the many other Irish people who don't give a toss about the Irish language despite 80 years of the government trying to ram it down their throats. Yet, Ireland is an English speaking country, like the USA and so on.

And as for the likes of NJ1 with the "and don't try to deny choice - enforced denial of choice seldom achieves it's purpose" ... I have two words for you.

An Daingean.

NavanJunction1

SeanW wrote:

And as for the likes of NJ1 with the "and don't try to deny choice - enforced denial of choice seldom achieves it's purpose" ... I have two words for you. An Daingean.

That has nothing to do with me! That's a matter for the locals to decide. Apparently (and you probably know more than me), the issue there seems to be that they want not to be a Gaeltacht area and still retain Gaeltacht funding.

Sorry Seán, didn't mean to offend you. As I said it's about choice - I know my choice and you've stated yours. But that's life for you. Each to their own..

I'm surpised that there is such a reaction to bi-lingual signs. They cover both languages - it is an inclusive concept not exclusive, and it's surprising that the sight of written Gaelic can cause so much offense.

It's only a language. And remember I'm very fond of the English language.

It's not a case of one or the other - you can appreciate both.

murphaph

NavanJunction1 wrote:

I'm surpised that there is such a reaction to bi-lingual signs. They cover both languages - it is an inclusive concept not exclusive, and it's surprising that the sight of written Gaelic can cause so much offense.

I'm not offended by the sight of Irish on roadsigns and I don't hink anyone else here is offended by it either. I (we?) am (are?) disappointed with it's inclusion in overwhelmingly English speaking parts of Ireland's signage as it reduces clarity dramatically and provides no additional information while doing this.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

It's not a case of one or the other - you can appreciate both.

You can appreciate either of them without them being on roadsigns of course

NavanJunction1

murphaph wrote:

You can appreciate either of them without them being on roadsigns of course

Let's compromise - I propose we rest your case.. :rolleyes:

Transport21 Fan

SeanW wrote:

The purpose of a roadsign is to INFORM. Nothing else. The addition of the Irish language to roadsigns is an antiquated DeVelera-esque "Hey, Look everyone, We're not Brits" statement and I'd have hoped we'd have moved on from that by now.

I agree 100%

I was born and raised in Dublin city and trace my family back there for generations. From what I gather Irish was never spoken in Dublin city as such. Before English it was French and Danish - but not Irish.

Therefore as a proud native Irishperson I can honestly state that English is my native language. Because it just is.

The Irish language classes and Blasket island values foisted upon me in school were no less representing an exterior ethno-cultural agenda imposed by law by outsiders, just as much as kids in Irish speaking regions were forced to speak English by the Brits in the past. Which is understandable as newly independent nations generally do this. But we have been independent for over 80 years now - isn't it time we got over this carry on and allowed Irish people to choose the Irish language as a personal choice rather than have it rammed down their troats?

Nothing against the Irish language and there is a cultural value in it and long may people continue to speak and nurture it (to a point, like the GAA it is completly worthless outside our island) - but in terms of road signs and all transport signs it should be English all the way.

NavanJunction1

Transport21 Fan wrote:

From what I gather Irish was never spoken in Dublin city as such. Before English it was French and Danish - but not Irish.

It was of course. Remember the phrase how the Norman's became 'more Irish than the irish themselves'?

The garrisons always recruited staff locally. And believe it or not there were still Gaelic speakers in north-Dublin in 1900.

English only caught on seriously just over 100 years ago - not many generartions that.

And you are talking about nationwide signage, not just Dublin. Unfortunately, most non-Gaelic speakers think of where they now, not where they come from.

The only other example I can thing of off hand to explain this is the famine. There was a sense of social shame to family loses in the famine, and families were loath to discuss any of their close relatives that died. Something similar happened with Gaelic to many. The monied class were English speaking, and like most things that set the scene for language.

Something similar happened with the adoption of English, and subsequent decline in Gaelic. And from that comes the somethimes extreme emotional responses both ways that people started to feel about Gaelic.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The Irish language classes and Blasket island values foisted upon me in school were no less representing an exterior ethno-cultural agenda imposed by law by outsiders, just as much as kids in Irish speaking regions were forced to speak English by the Brits in the past. Which is understandable as newly independent nations generally do this. But we have been independent for over 80 years now - isn't it time we got over this carry on and allowed Irish people to choose the Irish language as a personal choice rather than have it rammed down their troats?

And bi-lingual signs offer this choice. Just cover your eyes if you see Gaelic on a sign post. I'm not Fianna Fáil, nor have I ever met Ó Cuiv. Nor have I ever been on the Blasket islands. I am a Dub like you. Tallaght has numerous Gaelic speaking schools. Believe me, Gaelic speakers in Tallaght are not an insignificant part of the population there, and either are they across Dublin.

Neither do I have family from the west of Ireland, and the biggest shock of all may be that I'm married to a Scot.

I don't think Gaelic makes a person any more or less Irish. Nor would I ever ram the language down the throat of another, though I can tell you I have had people try to be snide to me many times, particularly regarding my name.

In fact some people when they hear your name feel they have a right to come over to you and declare their position on the language, and start giving it loads about their childhood etc etc etc etc, and how a language has destroyed their lives!

And btw, the 'Brits' didn't succeed in forcing the decline in Gaelic. The decline came about because English was adopted as people felt that being as English as possible was the best way to get on in a country where there was an English speaking establishment. And who could blame them?

There is a repressive instinct amongst a strong minority on this island when it comes to Gaelic. Maybe that is worth considering?

Aidan1

English only caught on seriously just over 100 years ago - not many generartions that

Not true, the language was in terminal decline since 1601 (before that really, but the decisive break was in that year), and has been the first language of a minority for at least 150 years. And yes, there were pockets of Gaeltachts in many parts of the country long after that, but thats all they were. Pockets.

There is a repressive instinct amongst a strong minority on this island when it comes to Gaelic. Maybe that is worth considering?

On this part of the island, I really, sincerely doubt it. If anything, the reverse is the case, a small minority insist on trying to shove a language down our throats that few of us have any everyday use for. Obvious example being compulsory leaving cert Irish. I'm all for having it as a subject, but why does it have to be compulsory?

NavanJunction1

Aidan1 wrote:

Obvious example being compulsory leaving cert Irish. I'm all for having it as a subject, but why does it have to be compulsory?

But your misgivings about schooling have nothing to do with signage.

If you have two different cultures, to forge a nation you must compromise between the cultures or kill one of them.

Thankfully bi-lingual signs show the vision of compromise. I see myself as an English and Gaelic speaker. I don't see either language as a threat, and I don't see any point in demonising either of them.

As I said, just cover your eyes when you see written Gaelic. I have to admit that I find it very sad that the spirit of repressive censorship still thrives in this country. This is the 2006, not 1956.

Aidan1 wrote:

On this part of the island, I really, sincerely doubt it

Sure, look at your reaction.. You wouldn't describe your views as being of a compromising nature, or would you?

Aidan1 wrote:

the language was in terminal decline since 1601

Do you celebrate that date? Things could have turned out very differently then.

murphaph

NavanJunction1 wrote:

But your misgivings about schooling have nothing to do with signage.

Ah NJ, it's one and the same deValeraesque, Peig reading system that has landed us with both and actually helped to destroy Irish through instilling a sense of hatred for what is a nice enough language. Thomas wll be able to add the history of deValera and the formally fanastic Dublin United Tramways Company and how the long fcuker basically bankrupted them, in part through forcing them to issue tickets in both languages when formally it was in English only. This required massive amounts of money to replace all their ticket machines!

NavanJunction1 wrote:

If you have two different cultures, to forge a nation you must compromise between the cultures or kill one of them.

Thankfully bi-lingual signs show the vision of compromise. I see myself as an English and Gaelic speaker. I don't see either language as a threat, and I don't see any point in demonising either of them.

Sadly, your spirit of compromise does not exist in the Irish speaking parts where my mother tongue is hidden like a dirty secret!

NavanJunction1 wrote:

As I said, just cover your eyes when you see written Gaelic. I have to admit that I find it very sad that the spirit of repressive censorship still thrives in this country. This is the 2006, not 1956.

It thrives in O'Cuiv's backyard alright. The rest of us are forced to accomodate a language few of us use while Gaeltacht areas get to do as they please.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Sure, look at your reaction.. You wouldn't describe your views as being of a compromising nature, or would you?

Directed at another but I'll answer for myself. I believe I am espousing a compromise-all maps and signage in the Gaeltachts to be as Gaeilge and all signage and mapping data in the English speaking parts to be in English. Is that not fair and equitable to all?

NavanJunction1

murphaph wrote:

I believe I am espousing a compromise-all maps and signage in the Gaeltachts to be as Gaeilge and all signage and mapping data in the English speaking parts to be in English. Is that not fair and equitable to all?

But not all Gaelic speakers live in Gaeltachts, which I believe is inconvienient to your arguement... They ain't native american type reservations you know..

And Dev was, well Dev. Sure look at the irish press shares issue. Nothing to do with Gaelic speakers. Sure wasn't dev an English speaker as well?

All of this linguistic sectarianism is very depressing..

Aidan1

Thankfully bi-lingual signs show the vision of compromise. I see myself as an English and Gaelic speaker. I don't see either language as a threat, and I don't see any point in demonising either of them.

You wouldn't describe your views as being of a compromising nature, or would you?

Ummm, not sure who's posts you've been reading NJ1, but I've arguing in favour of multilingual signage - just everywhere.

This ...

the spirit of repressive censorship

this ...

All of this linguistic sectarianism is very depressing..

and this ...

Do you celebrate that date?

... are either blatent attempts at trolling, or a very wilful misreading of what either myself or Murph has been posting. Dragging in coded pseudo-nationalistic digs at me, for example, only strengthens the case that Murph has been making.

My problem is with the creation of culturally cleansed lacunae, supposedly free of all foreign influence. I don't have a problem with multilingual signage per se, I think it has a role as a nod to our collective past and the cultural diversity that exists on this island (there are far more than just 2 'cultures', for a start). Murph's point, the big road geek that he is, is that multilingual signs are confusing and out of line with international standards. I see his point, and if we were starting again, I'd agree with him. But we're not, and I think multilingual is the way to go.

NavanJunction1

Aidan1 wrote:

blatent attempts at trolling, or a very wilful misreading of what either myself or Murph has been posting.

I just wanted to make a point using generalisations in the opposite direction - there have been plenty used against Gaelic signage that have nothing to do with Gaelic or signage.

My point with those terms was to show that dragging Dev et al into this isn't helpful, and neither are repeated references to 'shoved down my throat' and the other none relevant stuff being posted. Keep it to the topic under discussion.

It just doesn't seem to get through that there are plenty of people that want to keep Gaelic on signs living in Dublin and the rest of the island - and all the insults about the language are not helpful.

My one and only point all along is that if you don't want to use the Gaelic, use the English. Bi-lingual signs don't take anything away from your signage experience.

If I've caused offense I again apologise, but I too take offense at being labelled a Dev-type because I would like to see Gaelic signage kept, particularly when I have no link to either him, the west of Ireland, the Blaskets and whatever else is thrown in.

I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Aidan1 wrote:

the creation of culturally cleansed lacunae, supposedly free of all foreign influence.

That's not representative of my opinion. We agree in essence on signs then..

Aidan1

Did I say it was your position?

and all the insults about the language are not helpful

This is the key issue. Where has anyone insulted the language, or the subject of the language? You see insults where the rest of us see a rational case being made. A number of posters made the point that we regard ourselves as native english speakers, and you respond by, in effect, calling us 'English'. This then followed by a refer to my 'celebrating' 1601.

I can't help if the historical evidence doesn't support your views, I'm just pointing out the facts, not celebrating the demise of any language or the triumph of another, or the rise or decline of any political orthodoxy over another. You seem to assume that, because I do so, I'm 'insulting' someone. Why?

Transport21 Fan

murphaph wrote:

Ah NJ, it's one and the same deValeraesque, Peig reading system that has landed us with both and actually helped to destroy Irish through instilling a sense of hatred for what is a nice enough language. Thomas wll be able to add the history of deValera and the formally fanastic Dublin United Tramways Company and how the long fcuker basically bankrupted them, in part through forcing them to issue tickets in both languages when formally it was in English only. This required massive amounts of money to replace all their ticket machines!

'Through Streets Broad and Narrow' by Micheal Corchrane. The best transport book I ever read and tells the real story of how public transport (and urban living) in this country were sub-conciously deemed British and foreign during the Dev years.

This is when the rot started - then CIE was formed to prevent mass unemployment of public transport workers and this resulted in public transport in Ireland being viewed as nothing more than a form of social welfare, particulary in rural areas which is were groups like WestonTrack and the CIE unions get their mindset from. Buses and trains are about jobs - not public transport.

Both these factors have resulted in the Anyone-but-the-public Transport culture which has made our wee island unique among European nations in this regard.

Dev was a disaster for this country on so many levels it is not funny. There are also some interesting histories of the Irish Free State prior to the Dev years which make facinating reading. The first government had plans to not only electrify the rail network and build new cities around the country, but even brought over Dutch urban planners to design our public housing in the European style so they would not be slums. The Free State was striving to be a progessive and forward looking nation in the years following the Civil War.

Then the Brooklyn Bullet Dodger came "home" and it was all fair maidens and trade wars with Britain which took the country back to fuedal times. Dr. Noel Browne and Todd Andrews being the only progessive politicians during these years who made positive impacts at the time. Andrews on the whole being an brilliant visionary and honest pragmatist.

NavanJunction1

Transport21 Fan wrote:

'Through Streets Broad and Narrow' by Micheal Corchrane. The best transport book I ever read and tells the real story of how public transport (and urban living) in this country were sub-conciously deemed British and foreign during the Dev years.

And I can tell you that that attitude still exists, in a thwarted way..

Aidan1 wrote:

You seem to assume that, because I do so, I'm 'insulting' someone. Why?

Come on, references to Gaelic speakers and Blasket Island Ó Cuiv etc. As I said in an earlier post Enda Kenny is a Gaelic speaker as well. Gaelic does not mean FF, thank God.

Aidan1

I think its safe to say that those were (justified) insults to a mindset, not the language itself. No one has posted on the basis that Irish is 'a bad thing', or that all speakers of it are fainne toting, flat capped, tweed wearing, FF voting mouth breathers with BO problems. Instead, you seem to be assuming that, because the arguments we are using don't glorify the language we are somehow raving Anti Irish West Brits (1601 and repression et al).

Its a digression from the actual argument, which was about the usefulness of having Irish on signposts - no one was trying to use it to slag Irish, or the right of anyone to speak it.

nordydan

Good thing I started this poll, looks alike about 2 to 1 against removing the language but the most popular option was to add enlish to gaeltacht areas, as i thought.

Lot of anti-irish language sentiment here from certain posters. You are all a pack of west brits and you should be ashamed of yourselves. The angelus is on in just under two hours - when you hear those bells hang your heads in shame and remember your treachery. May the ghosts of Pearse and Connolly haunt you for the rest of your treasonous lives, you sycophantic slaves of perfidious albion. Good lord I fear for this country sometimes.
Enjoy reading the sunday independent in your D4 apartments and spending your daddy's credit cards to buy your cricket playing boyfriends some Pims down in Cafe-en-****. Once the fighting men of crossmaglen get their hands on the ip addresses i have sent them then, there will be only weeping and gnashing of teeth in the dark hours of the night. The butchers apron of the dastardly sassenach will not come to your aid this time. You will not be marching this 12th of July...

SeanW

You will not be marching this 12th of July...

Sorry to prick your bubble, but I wouldn't have been marching on the 12th of July even the ghosts of Pearse and Connolly didn't have my IP address ... I don't live in D4 and don't what a Pim is and never heard of Cafe-en-**** ...

Your post was good for a laugh though.

nordydan

SeanW wrote:

Sorry to prick your bubble, but I wouldn't have been marching on the 12th of July even the ghosts of Pearse and Connolly didn't have my IP address ... I don't live in D4 and don't what a Pim is and never heard of Cafe-en-**** ...

Your post was good for a laugh though.

Betraying the good people of Hibernia is no laughing matter young man, no laughing matter at all...

murphaph

NavanJunction1 wrote:

But not all Gaelic speakers live in Gaeltachts, which I believe is inconvienient to your arguement.

No I don't think so. Afterall, not all English speakers in this country live outside the Gaeltachts yet monolingual signage exists there

NavanJunction1 wrote:

And Dev was, well Dev. Sure look at the irish press shares issue. Nothing to do with Gaelic speakers. Sure wasn't dev an English speaker as well?

Probably part of the problem. He desperatlely wanted to assert a "look how different we are to the brits" agenda which cost this nation dear as Thomas rightly points out. It was his 'vision' and legacy that are directly responsible for that agenda living on in some shape or form right up to the present day, which i pretty pathetic for a modern nation such as ours.