Bilingual signs

nordydan

What should we do with the languages on road signs??

Keedowah

Keep English and Irish on them.

SeanW

The purpose of a roadsign is to INFORM. Nothing else. The addition of the Irish language to roadsigns is an antiquated DeVelera-esque "Hey, Look everyone, We're not Brits" statement and I'd have hoped we'd have moved on from that by now.

county

Keedowah wrote:

Keep English and Irish on them.

agreed,common sense imo

Keedowah

The purpose of a roadsign is to INFORM. Nothing else. The addition of the Irish language to roadsigns is an antiquated DeVelera-esque "Hey, Look everyone, We're not Brits" statement and I'd have hoped we'd have moved on from that by now.

If the purpose is to inform - then surely it should have both names on it. I think that outside of the Gaeltacht it should be English in Large letters with Irish below in small letters. And the opposite in the Gaeltacht.

Believe it or not - people do know/use the irish name for places. And wouldn't it help people who are learning the language? I.E. leaving cert students?

NavanJunction1

SeanW wrote:

"Hey, Look everyone, We're not Brits"

That isn't fair or accurate. Not every Gaelic speaker lives in the Gaeltacht, and most definitly not all Gaelic speakers are interested in politics.

It's a choice. I don't define myself in relation to "the brits", though I can understand why some might on some parts of the island.

I consider myself Irish and European, and Gaelic as the European language which is native to this island.

The choice with our road signs is that you can read them in whichever language you choose. I would never dream of calling for the removal of English language signs in the Galltacht.

For the record I studied English as a single subject in College.

I have no problem with English or literature in English. I am able to see English for what it is - just a language.

But Gaelic is this island's native language even if it is not as widely spoken as it once was, and even if it is endangered in places.

And whilst there is sufficient interest and ability to read our bilingual signs then there is no question but that that bilinguality should be retained.

Would you consider Enda Kenny a de Valera type?

Keedowah

Spot on NavanJunction1

murphaph

Do the same as other multi-lingual EU states. Sign in the local language only. Easy peasy. Switzerland and Belgium being prime examples of how to do it right. Switzerland wouldn't dream of including all four official languages on all signs, why that'd be crazy, wouldn't it.

adonis

do what the catalans do in barcelona.
Delete all signs of the imperial ruler and replace them with the native language, which in our case is Irish...
Is Ceannanas the only town in ireland to keep its real name?

murphaph

adonis wrote:

do what the catalans do in barcelona.
Delete all signs of the imperial ruler and replace them with the native language, which in our case is Irish...

.....he writes as Bearla :rolleyes:

adonis wrote:

Is Ceannanas the only town in ireland to keep its real name?

Muine Beag, An Rath etc. What they all have in common is that practically nobody who lives in these places refers to them this way! I went out with a girl from Kells and that's how everyone in the town refers to it.

adonis

i write in english, the point being?
i could write in a couple of other different languages if u like....pero no puedes entender nada...
also we are talking about street signs and not what language the nation speaks...why not put them all in irish?
any other european country (in the world) would put the street signs in their original language...

SeanW

For whom? How many people speak Irish as their first language?

Any other country would put roadsigns in the language that the people of that region speak. Your suggestion that all roadsigns should be As Gaeilge only is crazy.

adonis

the catalans put the signs back up in catalan directly after franco's death...they hadnt been speaking catalan for a long time, and spanish is their first language...so why are their signs in catalan?
As irish is our first language it should be on the roadsigns as the first language, not subservient to some imperialst tongue.
its not just about the majority of people speaking a certain language in a region. Its also about keeping a language, and with it a culture alive.

murphaph

adonis wrote:

i write in english, the point being?

The point is that you write here in English so that you may be universally understood on this forum. That says more about our use of language than anything else.

adonis wrote:

i could write in a couple of other different languages if u like....pero no puedes entender nada...

Well done. Have a gold star. Totally irrelevant of course.

adonis wrote:

also we are talking about street signs and not what language the nation speaks...why not put them all in irish?

Erm, because nations (with any sense) erect signage in the language that the majority of it's people speaks as a first language.

adonis wrote:

any other european country (in the world) would put the street signs in their original language...

Hmmm, last time I drove in Italy I don't remember seeing much by way of Latin signage :rolleyes:

Afuera

adonis wrote:

...they hadnt been speaking catalan for a long time, and spanish is their first language...so why are their signs in catalan?

Actually the Catalans were speaking Catalan even during Franco's time. The fact that it was banned in public did nothing to stop friends and family using it amongst themselves but the written language suffered a lot during this time. To this day many Catalans are terrible at writing in their own language.

Besides that though maybe the Catalan example isn't the best one to take for comparsion. I mean there's not a whole lot of difference between Girona or Gerona now is there? Whereas the difference between "Baile Atha Cliatha" and "Dublin" is more than slight.

spacetweek

You don't choose a language for things like road signs based on politics or some vague aspiration, you do it in the most practical way, which means using the language of daily life. In Ireland, this is nearly always English. I think Gaeligedóirs are just desperate to see their language written somewhere.

ardmacha

This country has a rich heritage of Irish placenames, even those of us who predominately speak English are enriched by their presence on roadsigns. One hopes the present arrangements will shortly be extended to those parts of the country with the greatest predominance of Gaelic placenames, but where colonial rule means that the original names cannot appear on signs.

NavanJunction1

ardmacha wrote:

where colonial rule means that the original names cannot appear on signs.

Except in Blackwatertown..:)

adonis

murphaph wrote:

The point is that you write here in English so that you may be universally understood on this forum. That says more about our use of language than anything else.


Well done. Have a gold star. Totally irrelevant of course.


Erm, because nations (with any sense) erect signage in the language that the majority of it's people speaks as a first language.


Hmmm, last time I drove in Italy I don't remember seeing much by way of Latin signage :rolleyes:

i meant their official language, and not some other imposed language...
people jsut get used to the gaelic names, thats all...and we do have a very rich heritage of place names and names in general, which is being eroded and lost due to the "translation" into english..So put them with Irish first and english second...why cant people be proud of their language?

Plus i do think that catalan is a good example; we were banned from speaking our language as they were... we kept it going as they did, there are other examples in the irish language; Corcaigh - Cork, Ciarrai - Kerry
So there isnt that much difference, you chose the polar oppostie with dublin and baile atha cliath...

Maskhadov

Support the irish language !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Use it EVERYWHERE (with english of course)

murphaph

adonis wrote:

i meant their official language, and not some other imposed language...

I don't feel that English was imposed on me, it's the language my parents spoke to me when I was a nipper and so I learned it as my mother tongue. I love my language. I have the utmost respect for Irish and people who have that language as their mother tongue, it's just not mine.

adonis wrote:

people jsut get used to the gaelic names, thats all...and we do have a very rich heritage of place names and names in general, which is being eroded and lost due to the "translation" into english

The placenames we all use in daily life have been around a long time. It's not like we were calling Dublin, Baile Atha Cliath just a decade ago or something. The English language placenames have claimed their spot through usage by us, the Irish!

adonis wrote:

..So put them with Irish first and english second

Ah, this is totally different from what you said in your last post Adonis! You originally claimed that signage should be in Irish only!

adonis wrote:

...why cant people be proud of their language?

I am, my first language just happens to be English!

Bill McH

I don't know if the poll choices can be changed, but choice #5 seems a bit ambiguous.

It's currently "English only outside the Gaeltacht".

I think what it's intended to offer is:

"outside the Gaeltacht, English only"

The current "English only outside the Gaeltacht" could imply that signs in the Gaeltacht should be in Irish only, while signs in other areas could or should be in both languages.

SeanW

You have a point there. I took it to mean "English only, on signs outside the Gaeltacth"

corktina

i dont mind if people want to retain Irish as their language, but what I do object to is the Irish-isation of words just for the sake of it......example, "Diosal" is one I saw in the filling station this week......The guys name is Diesel, so it should be spelt that way in every language....it is bastardising the irish language to be making up new words......ask the French what they think about "le bif stek" etc (or however they spell it.....)

as for road signs, well they need to inform as many people as possible, and that means them being in English on this island...I dont mind if they are bi-lingual, it isnt relevant to me. How many people speak Irish but no English? are there ANY?

nordydan

" I think what it's intended to offer is:

"outside the Gaeltacht, English only" "

>Thats what I meant, irish only in gaeltacht and english only in other parts. I tried to reword the poll but with no joy!

"This country has a rich heritage of Irish placenames, even those of us who predominately speak English are enriched by their presence on roadsigns. One hopes the present arrangements will shortly be extended to those parts of the country with the greatest predominance of Gaelic placenames, but where colonial rule means that the original names cannot appear on signs."

Well said. If you are ever in Ballynure or other unionists parts of the north they have:

WELCOME TO BALLYNURE

<PICTURE OF A TREE>

Townland of the Yew Tree

Spot the missing link here anyone???

NavanJunction1

corktina wrote:

How many people speak Irish but no English? are there ANY?

No, but bi-lingualism shouldn't be a crime. It shouldn't be "Great, you've learned English now. Leave your Gaelic at the door please."

There are many families in which the spoken language of the home is Gaelic. You mightn't know this about them in many cases unless you knew the family well.

Because English dominates so strongly on this island, people are often surprised when they learn this, if they aren't part of that community.

And you would be surprised how many people do speak Gaeilge and went Gael-scoileanna but don't advertise it, and why should they?

Being able to use your native language is part of freedom of expression, particularly in your own land. Who cares if beaureucrats don't like it.

And just a quick point re imported words into Gaelic. English is a bastardised language, French, German, Latin and Greek (bit of Gaelic) all rolled into one. The problem with language is that nothing is pure.

And standardisation of English only took hold when the printing press was invented - before that there were multiple dialects.

The example of Diesel is good one. Diesel is a german word after the inventor of the diesel engine. It was subsequently taken into English.

And yes Gaelic has it's own imports other than those from English - The Icelandic for button is Knapf, Gaelic Cnaipe. Ship building words in Gaelic were mainly borrowed from the Norse, religious terminolgy from the French and Latin.

And remember, even within languages the meaning of words change, as does their spellings etc.

From Gaelic to English you have words such as Tory (yes, the conservatives of all people!) and galore.

It's all just language. How you regard it is a personal thing. The quality of our signage is a different issue completely.

luckat

The sheer hatred of Irish by some Irish people always amuses me, and baffles me a little.

It seems that it is part of a deeper self-hatred.

nordydan

Well said navanjunction1.

Luckat, you are spot on. There are some irish people who hate being irish. There are also some irish people who think the irish are not fit to govern themselves and should be ruled from london. It is their problem, not this country's.

murphaph

nordydan wrote:

There are also some irish people who think the irish are not fit to govern themselves and should be ruled from london. It is their problem, not this country's.

Would these people include the majority of people in Northern Ireland?

Dan, honestly, I can see your political aspirations in boards/politics. This is commuting/transport and that last post had 0 commuting/transport content. There is no need to turn every thread into a "look how more Irish I am than you" p!ssing contest, it gets tedious reading it but I will adress it in the context of this thead.

When you see the shocking implementation of our road signs down here (I'm not refering to bilingualism at all now, just the implementation of the existing Traffic Signs Manual, 1994 published by the DoE-yes folks, there is an actual manual for local authorities to follow!) and compare it to the UK's pretty flawless and comprehensive implementation of their TSRGD Rule Book you can appreciate why people get very frustrated as a quick spin over the border reveals a whole bunch of folks who appear quite competent in doing their job. So why aren't our local authority employees so competent? What is there to be 'proud' of in that? Heck, even our National Roads Authority have presided over introducing dangerous new overhead gantries which mislead people into needlessly changing lane at junctions! We are not some immature little fledgling state anymore. We have been independent for over 80 years yet we still carry on like a west African tinpot regime-all grand plans and little attention to minor road maintenance and signage installation and upkeep. I have never heard of cat's eyes being replaced, despite the fact that the reflective beads only last app 24months and need to be pooped out and changed. I'm not impressed by the local authorities' willingness to allow contractors to dig huge trenches in recently surfaced roads to insert private networks along them, inserting 6, yes SIX manhole covers every 150m, trning a nice road into a deathtrap for a motorcyclist like myself. I'm not in the slightest bit impressed by any of it. It is nothing I'd want to aspire to. We don't need bilingual signage to differentiate us from the brits, once you cross the border you can see by the standard of implementation that you're definitely outside the UK!

Is this what we want to be our visitors abiding memory of Ireland? Getting lost at every turn? I think not. We talk a lot but have a long way to go before we can compare ourselves with our nearest neighbours. You mentioned some people's belief that we are not it to govern ourselves, well I put it to you that at a certain level we aren't. Local authorities are local government. They are, for the most part, incompetent in the extreme when it comes to following the Traffic Signs Manual and so indeed are unfit for government, albeit local. Then you have the DoT, who are supposed to enforce the rule book, but I don't see anybody going around taking incomptent local authorities to task over completely ignoring the rule book, so that oo is incompetence in government at national level.

It is OK to criticise our government and seek to make it better. It does not make one a unionist/traitor/g-man etc. etc. It merely makes one somebody who seeks to improve this country in a meaningful way. Many are just happy that we're independent-not good enough for me.

r3nu4l

Well, I would love to see all road signs with both Irish and English on them, equal importance I say!

I grew up speaking English and detested learning Irish in school but actually liked speaking a little Irish (what little I could speak).

Now as a 30 year old I have found my interest in Irish increasing dramatically. I think this is in part because I live in the UK but my mix of friends are from all over Europe – France, Germany, Greece, Austria, Switzerland.

Every single one of them have asked me to speak some Irish and have learned some phrases. They are always amazed that Irish people are not more proud of Irish as a language and don't use it more. They do understand why we use English in our day-to-day work and business life. They are really interested in Irish.

My Greek friend is going to Galway next weekend and looking forward to seeing some written Irish. I told her to look out for the road signs as they are one of the only places where tourists come into contact with the language!

Aidan1

Being able to use your native language is part of freedom of expression, particularly in your own land. Who cares if beaureucrats don't like it.

I'm sorry, but for the vast, vast majority of people on this island, English is their native language. This has been the case for at least 150 years.

Trying to insist that anybody who points this out is somehow 'anti Irish' or ashamed of their background is more than a little pathetic. Its just a fact. You might not like it, or approve of the historical processes that brought it about, but here we are. Roadsignage should reflect this, English with Irish underneath in most of the country, the inverse in Gaeltacht areas.

Whats the purpose of roadsigns after all? Asserting the existence of Irish, or providing guidance to those who don't know their way? One would presume that the locals will know where they're going ...

Even in so called Gaeltacht areas, allegience to Irish is mainly a nominal thing anyway. To a large degree, these areas continue to exist to qualify for the additional funding in place for them. Moreover, anyone got a proper map of Gaeltacht areas?

Keedowah

Aidan1 - i agree with a lot of what your saying - in particular:

Roadsignage should reflect this, English with Irish underneath in most of the country, the inverse in Gaeltacht areas.

That just makes sense to me - and I dont want to be political about the thing - its just about information!

But I think this is a little poor on your part:

To a large degree, these areas continue to exist to qualify for the additional funding in place for them.

NavanJunction1

Aidan1 wrote:

English is their native language.

No English can never be the 'native' language on this island because the language is not native to Ireland.

The only place English is the native language is in England.

Widely spoken language yes, native language no.

Aidan1 wrote:

This has been the case for at least 150 years.

Not true. 80%+ still spoke it at the turn of last century. Dramatic reduction in daily use occured in the 30 years after that.

It's not politics. It's choice. Nobody is removing your right to chose, why aspire to take away the choice of others?

murphaph

NavanJunction1 wrote:

No English can never be the 'native' language on this island because the language is not native to Ireland.

The only place English is the native language is in England.

Widely spoken language yes, native language no.

I'd disagree there. At what point did modern English cease developing? Answer: It hasn't. All ;languages continue to develop, otherwise we wouldn't need to print updated dictionaries. We have taken English and added plenty of words to it from this island. I'd say that makes it native at this stage. Remember that English wasn't just 'invented' one day in England. The Angles and the Saxons and the Jutes brought their germanic languages with them from Europe and they were influenced by others such as the Norse and of course French! For example, the word Castle was brought by the Normans, simply because the Anglo-Saxons didn't have castles so they just copied the word the Normans used to describe the thing. The same thing happens today!

Another way of loking at it is this: Ancient languages in England were usurped by the languages brought in by the Angles et al and these languages were the foreunners of English. So the native language of England is whatever the prytannae (ancient tribes who lived across the British Isles and who give us the word Brittanae) spoke.

ou see it is difficult to categorise languages, but more importantly it simply doesn't matter. What language was first spoken where because undoubtledly the ancient tribes of this island did not speak what we would call Irish. The simple fact is that English is the first language of something like 99% of the population.

Nobodyis calling for the wiping out of Irish, quite the contrary-I am happy to se my taxes spent on language programmes and meaningful ways of preserving and encouaging the language to grow. I am not in favour of ridiculous policies such as compulsory bilingualism on roadsigns that as NavanJunction pointed out haven't helped the declinein Irish at all!

Aidan1

Not true. 80%+ still spoke it at the turn of last century

Do you mean 'could speak it' or 'spoke it as their primary language in every day use'? I'd love to see figures for that.

Its very much a matter of contention, but the generally accepted version runs that by the early 19thC the proportions were hovering around 50:50, and even that was mainly because of the very large population growth in the poorer areas of the west that still had a majority of speakers in the period 1780-1841. The language had been in terminal decline for at least 2 centuries by that point. After the 1840s, with the very large changes in population, the proportion of people speaking the language fell very dramatically.

As for Irish being the 'native' language, it arrived here, at some point from abroad. Its an import too, after all. It has been modified, as has its variants elsewhere, by contacts with other cultures, but it is still a branch of a linguistic tree, not a trunk. All that has happened is that one language has been replaced as the lingua franca. Irish, for most of us is an historical artifact. Its vital to our culture and understanding of our history, and should be kept alive as part of both. But channeling post colonial guilt into policies on the subject have never helped the language, or the country. Issues like road signage are just that, functional issues that relate to the running of a modern state. By all means, have road signs bilingual, if nothing else it will help to keep Irish placenames alive and in use to a degree. But descending into lingual totalitarianism helps no one. Specially if you're lost in Kerry with a map in English and all the road signs are in Irish ...

biko

luckat wrote:

The sheer hatred of Irish by some Irish people always amuses me, and baffles me a little.

Grammar is the killer. Also how often you come in contact with it. I use Irish most every day but would not have whole conversations in it.

NavanJunction1

murphaph wrote:

At what point did modern English cease developing? Answer: It hasn't.

Read my earlier post - that's what i said. It's just language.

And poor sign-posts are just that - poor sign-posts.

2 different issues.

Again, attack the sign-post, not the language on it.

If you want to describe your self as an 'English Native' that's fine by me..:)

Aidan1 wrote:

descending into lingual totalitarianism helps no one.

Read my earlier post - it's about choice. Removing Gaelic is totalitarian - having both languages is compromise. I believe in compromise.

murphaph wrote:

ridiculous policies such as compulsory bilingualism on roadsigns.

You prefer compulsory monolingualism?

Aidan1

it's about choice. Removing Gaelic is totalitarian - having both languages is compromise. I believe in compromise.

I'm in favour of bilingualism too, just everywhere, including in Minister O'Cuivs fiefdoms.

you want to describe your self as an 'English Native'

Not addressed to me I know, but still, its a wilful miss use of the phraseology. Just because I'm a native english speaker, does not make me 'English'. Nor does it, for that matter, make me any less Irish.

Slight distinction there ...

Chris_533976

I really cant understand why Irish & English have to be on signs. National identity and all that old crap aside, face facts.

People outside the Gaeltacht dont need to read the Irish, they read the English.
People who live in the Gaeltacht can read English anyway, so they dont need the Irish.

I think its a complete and utter waste of time and adds a ton of unnecessary clutter to already cluttered signs. If people INSIST on having Irish on the sign as well, make the Irish smaller than it is.

NavanJunction1

Aidan1 wrote:

a wilful miss use of the phraseology. Just because I'm a native english speaker, does not make me 'English'. Nor does it, for that matter, make me any less Irish.

Check earlier post about English being native to Ireland, and not. Native means native, not adopted. English is adopted, or whatever term you prefer.

Hate to break it but none of you will ever be native English speakers, not unless you grew up in England. You have to look at the place you live for what it is not what you would like it to be..

Look, I have no problem at all with how people view themselves, or whichever language spoken. It is just language, just as identity is subjective.

Each to their own, and many people identify with their Gaelic heritage and a good proportion of those can speak the language.

If you do view yourself as a 'native English speaker' that's fine by me - Ireland is a complex place. This island has been multi-cultural for a long, long time.

But respect others, and don't try to deny choice - enforced denial of choice seldom achieves it's purpose - try to be generous in your thinking...

And maybe just agree to disagree..:)

murphaph

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Check earlier post about English being native to Ireland, and not. Native means native, not adopted. English is adopted, or whatever term you prefer.

And Irish was adopted at some point too, as Aidan pointed out-it is a branch of a linguistic tree, not a trunk or indeed root. It just happened to get here before English.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Hate to break it but none of you will ever be native English speakers, not unless you grew up in England. You have to look at the place you live for what it is not what you would like it to be..

I am a native English speaker. If English was called wazzawazzagoogoo and not named after a country, would you then be able to accept me as a native speaker of that language? If I grow up in New York to parents from na Forbacha and thy teach me Irish as my first language, am I not a native Irish speaker because I grew up outside Ireland? Think about it.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

But respect others, and don't try to deny choice - enforced denial of choice seldom achieves it's purpose - try to be generous in your thinking...

Well I'd agree with you there to a point. The choice to us native English speakers has of course been denied in parts of our our country by O'Cuiv and his ilk. They have done it out of a love for Irish/Hate for English whatever, I am in favour of the same for the English speaking parts of Ireland but for signage clarity reasons.

SeanW

I grew up and have lived in Ireland most of my life.

English is my language. That, I believe, makes me a native English speaker. Beginning, Middle, End of story. So are the many other Irish people who don't give a toss about the Irish language despite 80 years of the government trying to ram it down their throats. Yet, Ireland is an English speaking country, like the USA and so on.

And as for the likes of NJ1 with the "and don't try to deny choice - enforced denial of choice seldom achieves it's purpose" ... I have two words for you.

An Daingean.

NavanJunction1

SeanW wrote:

And as for the likes of NJ1 with the "and don't try to deny choice - enforced denial of choice seldom achieves it's purpose" ... I have two words for you. An Daingean.

That has nothing to do with me! That's a matter for the locals to decide. Apparently (and you probably know more than me), the issue there seems to be that they want not to be a Gaeltacht area and still retain Gaeltacht funding.

Sorry Seán, didn't mean to offend you. As I said it's about choice - I know my choice and you've stated yours. But that's life for you. Each to their own..

I'm surpised that there is such a reaction to bi-lingual signs. They cover both languages - it is an inclusive concept not exclusive, and it's surprising that the sight of written Gaelic can cause so much offense.

It's only a language. And remember I'm very fond of the English language.

It's not a case of one or the other - you can appreciate both.

murphaph

NavanJunction1 wrote:

I'm surpised that there is such a reaction to bi-lingual signs. They cover both languages - it is an inclusive concept not exclusive, and it's surprising that the sight of written Gaelic can cause so much offense.

I'm not offended by the sight of Irish on roadsigns and I don't hink anyone else here is offended by it either. I (we?) am (are?) disappointed with it's inclusion in overwhelmingly English speaking parts of Ireland's signage as it reduces clarity dramatically and provides no additional information while doing this.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

It's not a case of one or the other - you can appreciate both.

You can appreciate either of them without them being on roadsigns of course

NavanJunction1

murphaph wrote:

You can appreciate either of them without them being on roadsigns of course

Let's compromise - I propose we rest your case.. :rolleyes:

Transport21 Fan

SeanW wrote:

The purpose of a roadsign is to INFORM. Nothing else. The addition of the Irish language to roadsigns is an antiquated DeVelera-esque "Hey, Look everyone, We're not Brits" statement and I'd have hoped we'd have moved on from that by now.

I agree 100%

I was born and raised in Dublin city and trace my family back there for generations. From what I gather Irish was never spoken in Dublin city as such. Before English it was French and Danish - but not Irish.

Therefore as a proud native Irishperson I can honestly state that English is my native language. Because it just is.

The Irish language classes and Blasket island values foisted upon me in school were no less representing an exterior ethno-cultural agenda imposed by law by outsiders, just as much as kids in Irish speaking regions were forced to speak English by the Brits in the past. Which is understandable as newly independent nations generally do this. But we have been independent for over 80 years now - isn't it time we got over this carry on and allowed Irish people to choose the Irish language as a personal choice rather than have it rammed down their troats?

Nothing against the Irish language and there is a cultural value in it and long may people continue to speak and nurture it (to a point, like the GAA it is completly worthless outside our island) - but in terms of road signs and all transport signs it should be English all the way.

NavanJunction1

Transport21 Fan wrote:

From what I gather Irish was never spoken in Dublin city as such. Before English it was French and Danish - but not Irish.

It was of course. Remember the phrase how the Norman's became 'more Irish than the irish themselves'?

The garrisons always recruited staff locally. And believe it or not there were still Gaelic speakers in north-Dublin in 1900.

English only caught on seriously just over 100 years ago - not many generartions that.

And you are talking about nationwide signage, not just Dublin. Unfortunately, most non-Gaelic speakers think of where they now, not where they come from.

The only other example I can thing of off hand to explain this is the famine. There was a sense of social shame to family loses in the famine, and families were loath to discuss any of their close relatives that died. Something similar happened with Gaelic to many. The monied class were English speaking, and like most things that set the scene for language.

Something similar happened with the adoption of English, and subsequent decline in Gaelic. And from that comes the somethimes extreme emotional responses both ways that people started to feel about Gaelic.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The Irish language classes and Blasket island values foisted upon me in school were no less representing an exterior ethno-cultural agenda imposed by law by outsiders, just as much as kids in Irish speaking regions were forced to speak English by the Brits in the past. Which is understandable as newly independent nations generally do this. But we have been independent for over 80 years now - isn't it time we got over this carry on and allowed Irish people to choose the Irish language as a personal choice rather than have it rammed down their troats?

And bi-lingual signs offer this choice. Just cover your eyes if you see Gaelic on a sign post. I'm not Fianna Fáil, nor have I ever met Ó Cuiv. Nor have I ever been on the Blasket islands. I am a Dub like you. Tallaght has numerous Gaelic speaking schools. Believe me, Gaelic speakers in Tallaght are not an insignificant part of the population there, and either are they across Dublin.

Neither do I have family from the west of Ireland, and the biggest shock of all may be that I'm married to a Scot.

I don't think Gaelic makes a person any more or less Irish. Nor would I ever ram the language down the throat of another, though I can tell you I have had people try to be snide to me many times, particularly regarding my name.

In fact some people when they hear your name feel they have a right to come over to you and declare their position on the language, and start giving it loads about their childhood etc etc etc etc, and how a language has destroyed their lives!

And btw, the 'Brits' didn't succeed in forcing the decline in Gaelic. The decline came about because English was adopted as people felt that being as English as possible was the best way to get on in a country where there was an English speaking establishment. And who could blame them?

There is a repressive instinct amongst a strong minority on this island when it comes to Gaelic. Maybe that is worth considering?

Aidan1

English only caught on seriously just over 100 years ago - not many generartions that

Not true, the language was in terminal decline since 1601 (before that really, but the decisive break was in that year), and has been the first language of a minority for at least 150 years. And yes, there were pockets of Gaeltachts in many parts of the country long after that, but thats all they were. Pockets.

There is a repressive instinct amongst a strong minority on this island when it comes to Gaelic. Maybe that is worth considering?

On this part of the island, I really, sincerely doubt it. If anything, the reverse is the case, a small minority insist on trying to shove a language down our throats that few of us have any everyday use for. Obvious example being compulsory leaving cert Irish. I'm all for having it as a subject, but why does it have to be compulsory?

NavanJunction1

Aidan1 wrote:

Obvious example being compulsory leaving cert Irish. I'm all for having it as a subject, but why does it have to be compulsory?

But your misgivings about schooling have nothing to do with signage.

If you have two different cultures, to forge a nation you must compromise between the cultures or kill one of them.

Thankfully bi-lingual signs show the vision of compromise. I see myself as an English and Gaelic speaker. I don't see either language as a threat, and I don't see any point in demonising either of them.

As I said, just cover your eyes when you see written Gaelic. I have to admit that I find it very sad that the spirit of repressive censorship still thrives in this country. This is the 2006, not 1956.

Aidan1 wrote:

On this part of the island, I really, sincerely doubt it

Sure, look at your reaction.. You wouldn't describe your views as being of a compromising nature, or would you?

Aidan1 wrote:

the language was in terminal decline since 1601

Do you celebrate that date? Things could have turned out very differently then.

murphaph

NavanJunction1 wrote:

But your misgivings about schooling have nothing to do with signage.

Ah NJ, it's one and the same deValeraesque, Peig reading system that has landed us with both and actually helped to destroy Irish through instilling a sense of hatred for what is a nice enough language. Thomas wll be able to add the history of deValera and the formally fanastic Dublin United Tramways Company and how the long fcuker basically bankrupted them, in part through forcing them to issue tickets in both languages when formally it was in English only. This required massive amounts of money to replace all their ticket machines!

NavanJunction1 wrote:

If you have two different cultures, to forge a nation you must compromise between the cultures or kill one of them.

Thankfully bi-lingual signs show the vision of compromise. I see myself as an English and Gaelic speaker. I don't see either language as a threat, and I don't see any point in demonising either of them.

Sadly, your spirit of compromise does not exist in the Irish speaking parts where my mother tongue is hidden like a dirty secret!

NavanJunction1 wrote:

As I said, just cover your eyes when you see written Gaelic. I have to admit that I find it very sad that the spirit of repressive censorship still thrives in this country. This is the 2006, not 1956.

It thrives in O'Cuiv's backyard alright. The rest of us are forced to accomodate a language few of us use while Gaeltacht areas get to do as they please.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Sure, look at your reaction.. You wouldn't describe your views as being of a compromising nature, or would you?

Directed at another but I'll answer for myself. I believe I am espousing a compromise-all maps and signage in the Gaeltachts to be as Gaeilge and all signage and mapping data in the English speaking parts to be in English. Is that not fair and equitable to all?

NavanJunction1

murphaph wrote:

I believe I am espousing a compromise-all maps and signage in the Gaeltachts to be as Gaeilge and all signage and mapping data in the English speaking parts to be in English. Is that not fair and equitable to all?

But not all Gaelic speakers live in Gaeltachts, which I believe is inconvienient to your arguement... They ain't native american type reservations you know..

And Dev was, well Dev. Sure look at the irish press shares issue. Nothing to do with Gaelic speakers. Sure wasn't dev an English speaker as well?

All of this linguistic sectarianism is very depressing..