€6 minimum credit card transaction allowed?

antoinolachtnai

dub45 wrote:

We are not talking about the ordinary day to day costs of collecting paymenets from the public. Each time you use a credit card the merchant 'suffers' a bank charge/discount for the privilege of the card being used in his business. So this bank discount makes it uneconomical for cards to be used for small transactions - it is applied throughout the world it is not just an irish issue.

There is no free lunch. Everything has to be paid for. The labour and equipment costs of collecting coins are substantial. They are higher than the charges for credit card collection.

You are saying that the cost of collecting coins and notes is more expensive than the cost of a credit card transaction. I am asking that you justify that.

And by the way it is truly amazing that someone who has been operating their own form of the cashless society for the past three years has never come across this minimum requirement before.

There is no minimum requirement. Most shops will take a credit card of laser for even a small transaction (although not for a low-markup item like a top-up voucher or a lotto ticket). Most vending machines that take credit cards do too. Payphones take credit cards all the way down to 60 cents if I recall correctly. There are plenty of carpark machines that take a credit card for less than 2 euros.

dub45

antoinolachtnai wrote:

There is no free lunch. Everything has to be paid for. The labour and equipment costs of collecting coins are substantial. They are higher than the charges for credit card collection.

You are saying that the cost of collecting coins and notes is more expensive than the cost of a credit card transaction. I am asking that you justify that.

There is no minimum requirement. Most shops will take a credit card of laser for even a small transaction (although not for a low-markup item like a top-up voucher or a lotto ticket). Most vending machines that take credit cards do too. Payphones take credit cards all the way down to 60 cents if I recall correctly. There are plenty of carpark machines that take a credit card for less than 2 euros.

Please read what I wrote - I pointed out that there is a deduction by the bank visa mastercard or whoever eacth time a merchant accepts a card in payment - this has nothing to do with business costs of employing staff to do whatever they do - they would be in addition to those costs. these cc deductions makes some transactions uneconomic and a business is perfectly within their rights to decline a card for those transactons.

Many retailers have signs up indicating a minimum spend for the use of cards - look around you.

fletch

dub45 wrote:

And as I pointed out earlier you got on the train knowing you had no means of paying at the other end - so why should any inspector be 'sympathetic' to that sort of attitude?

As I mentioned earlier...there is an ATM in Dublin Connolly which I could have used to get money (although I didn't originally expect to do this as I assumed I could use my cred card to pay in the first place)

dub45 wrote:

Why did you not go back home and get some change?

Well due to that fact that it would have taken me 40mins to do so, by which time I would have missed the next train also

dub45 wrote:

By the way you said that you got the bus home
How did you pay for that as you also say that you set out on your big adventure with only 5 cents on you:rolleyes:

Well I had to go to an ATM in town and withdraw money, then spend money on stuff I didn't need so I could get change for the bus

steveland? wrote:

You say you're a student? I can't wait to see whatever debts you're left with once you get your degree...

I currently have zero debt

steveland? wrote:

Also saying you could understand getting the gards if you looked rough? Get off your high horse...

I understand that may have come across as pompous but it wasn't like I was in a group of teenagers knocking back cans and shoutin abusive language who obviously had no intentions of paying.

steveland? wrote:

when you could've easily gone to an ATM (don't tell us it was 50 minutes away... there's ATMs everywhere)

I am telling the truth, I am not going to say which station in particular but if you refuse to believe the facts as I tell them, then there is no point arguing with you because you will believe what you want to believe.

fletch

dub45 wrote:

Many retailers have signs up indicating a minimum spend for the use of cards - look around you.

Irishrail don't

dub45

fletch wrote:

Irishrail don't

It does not deny them to right to refuse payment via cc.

So you say you were cooperative and yet you did not cooperate in the most fundamental way in that you refused to show id to the inspector. You did not wait around for the guards to arrive so did you actually supply your details for the fine to issue or are you on the run?

Have you subsequently gone back and paid for your ticket?

antoinolachtnai

dub45 wrote:

Please read what I wrote - I pointed out that there is a deduction by the bank visa mastercard or whoever eacth time a merchant accepts a card in payment - this has nothing to do with business costs of employing staff to do whatever they do - they would be in addition to those costs. these cc deductions makes some transactions uneconomic and a business is perfectly within their rights to decline a card for those transactons.

No, I read it just fine, it's just that you are wrong. You don't need to service the machine as often or clear out the coins from the machine as often if a larger proportion of transactions are cash-based. That means you can reduce the staff and capital required and reduce your costs. I am saying that the reduction in costs will be bigger than the cost of the credit card commission.

It is also perfectly feasible to introduce card-only ticket machines which are cheaper and simpler in design.

There is also a deduction every time coins are accepted. The bank charges a fee for accepting coins and notes.

Obviously a business can do whatever it wants to do. But that doesn't mean it is doing the right thing. The situation for a company with automatic machines is very different from the situation for a retailer with a counter. The time factor, rather than the commission is often the issue for retailers with credit cards in my experience.

Many retailers have signs up indicating a minimum spend for the use of cards - look around you.

None round here that I know of. Which national retail chain has a policy of not accepting credit cards for small transactions?

fletch

dub45 wrote:

It does not deny them to right to refuse payment via cc.

So you say you were cooperative and yet you did not cooperate in the most fundamental way in that you refused to show id to the inspector.

I objected to providing my details on principle that I had attempted to pay and was now being fined for same

dub45 wrote:

Have you subsequently gone back and paid for your ticket?

No

dub45

antoinolachtnai wrote:

No, I read it just fine, it's just that you are wrong. You don't need to service the machine as often or clear out the coins from the machine as often if a larger proportion of transactions are cash-based. That means you can reduce the staff and capital required and reduce your costs. I am saying that the reduction in costs will be bigger than the cost of the credit card commission.

It is also perfectly feasible to introduce card-only ticket machines which are cheaper and simpler in design.

There is also a deduction every time coins are accepted. The bank charges a fee for accepting coins and notes.

Obviously a business can do whatever it wants to do. But that doesn't mean it is doing the right thing. The situation for a company with automatic machines is very different from the situation for a retailer with a counter. The time factor, rather than the commission is often the issue for retailers with credit cards in my experience.



None round here that I know of. Which national retail chain has a policy of not accepting credit cards for small transactions?

Has it occurred to you that businnesses dont turn turn away money without good reason?

ateam

After all this will you you make sure to have CASH with you every time you go for a train?

MarkoP11

Got caught pay the fine, if it ends up in court you will end up with a criminal conviction and that will make life tricky if you ever have to go abroad to the states. Failing to cooperate is in itself an offense thence why the gardai where summoned. The OP is a classic case of blame someone else

For once Irish Rail had there house in order, in the past far too many people got off on a technicality. The rules where followed, if they hadn't I'd be posting the exact quote from the legal instrument to get you off

The law says

3. Except as provided in Bye-Law No. 4, no person other than an authorised person shall—

**** (1) enter any lift or pass any ticket barrier unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling the holder to enter such lift or pass such barrier; and such ticket or other authority shall be produced on demand to any authorised person; or
**** (2) enter any vehicle for the purpose of travelling unless and until he or she or someone on his or her behalf shall have obtained from the Board or from an authorised person a ticket or other authority entitling him or her to travel therein.
The Board shall be entitled to recover the full fare for the distance actually travelled by the offender without a ticket or other authority.
4. Where the Board gives notice that a station is unattended or the booking office is closed, or where any person is instructed by an authorised person to board a train at a station without purchasing a ticket at the booking office so as not to delay the departure of the train from the station, any person not in possession of a valid ticket entitling him or her to travel may enter a vehicle at that station for the purpose of travelling but that person must obtain a ticket or other authority from an authorised person on the train as soon as practicable after entering any vehicle or from an authorised person on arrival at the station to which such person is travelling by the train.

Bye-law 4 doesn't apply as the booking office was open as such the inspector was 100% correct. As I understand it the RPA don't have the equivalent of bye-law 4 and even if all the ticket machines are out of order at a stop you are not allowed board

Cash is the only universally accepted form of payment, no vendor has an obligation to take credit cards, most do and to be fair to Irish Rail they have well over 100 of the vending machines now in place with more coming. Legally you can never win a case against a merchant for refusing a credit card as the service is supplied by a third party on behalf of the merchant, the merchant can never guarantee its availability, thats in the T&C's. Same goes for ATM machines buried in the T&C's the banks are not responsible for the failure of ATM machines. There is no law against limiting the amounts that can be transacted thats a matter for the terms and conditions

There has been a long list of complaints about IE ticketing policy and credit card acceptance has appeared once only to be proven that credit cards where accepted at the station in question, local politico didn't even bother to check.

nlgbbbblth

fletch wrote:

I am not going to say which station in particular

Why not?

What have you got to hide?

murphaph

Fletch, I'm not aware of any ATM in Connolly which is railside of the ticket barriers, so you'd have hop the barriers at your local station, board without a ticket, somehow pass through a manned ticket check (or hope it wasn't manned and hop the barriers again) to get to an ATM to withdraw money to pay for a ticket. Think about how crazy that sounds. You presumably thought all this would be fine because you're respectable etc. which I'm sure you are but look at it from their perspective, it looks really dodgy.

The CC is a side issue to me. I've bought rail tickets from machines all over Europe but never a single ticket like hat, always a day ticket or something so never had a problem with CC payments. I honestly think it's unreasonable to expect 1) that they will definitely be able to process a CC payment at a station (numerous technical reasons why the system might be down etc.-has happened to me in shops quite recently 2) that it's ok to board without a ticket when the ticket office was open and 3) to refuse to give details when asked.

You could have bought tickets up to the minimum amount if you absolutley had to get on that train and just taken the hit in the (e-)pocket. I know there's no way I'd have done what you did. I know you weren't trying to evade your fare and all that but it's still unnacceptable behaviour at the end of the day. I'd cough up the fine and leave it at that.

antoinolachtnai

dub45 wrote:

Has it occurred to you that businnesses dont turn turn away money without good reason?

I have told you the reason why I think they don't take credit cards for small transactions. I backed my version up with an argument. I also pointed to international best practice. I never said there wasn't a good reason for it, it just isn't the reason you mentioned.

Your argument is pretty thin. You can't name a single significant retailer in this State who doesn't accept credit cards for small transactions.

fletch

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Your argument is pretty thin. You can't name a single significant retailer in this State who doesn't accept credit cards for small transactions.

I have worked for a considerable length of time in the cash office of a major retail store in Ireland. Counting the cash occupied approximately 70-90% of our time. Credit card transactions were a simple, print off statement for the day, cross reference against the till totals. It doesn't take a genious to see which is the more labour intensive method of transaction. I know for a fact that Dunnes Stores has no minimum transaction amount and neither does the retail store I worked for, neither does Tesco (the self-scanning machines anyway)

dub45

antoinolachtnai wrote:

I have told you the reason why I think they don't take credit cards for small transactions. I backed my version up with an argument. I also pointed to international best practice. I never said there wasn't a good reason for it, it just isn't the reason you mentioned.

Your argument is pretty thin. You can't name a single significant retailer in this State who doesn't accept credit cards for small transactions.

And I have pointed out to you why some retailers insist on a minimum amount - there is not enough in it for them after the deduction is made - you choose to ignore that. If a large retailer chooses to take cards for small amounts thats up to them - they may be in a postion to negotaite far smaller charges from the cc companies than smaller businesses.

dub45

fletch wrote:

I have worked for a considerable length of time in the cash office of a major retail store in Ireland. Counting the cash occupied approximately 70-90% of our time. Credit card transactions were a simple, print off statement for the day, cross reference against the till totals. It doesn't take a genious to see which is the more labour intensive method of transaction. I know for a fact that Dunnes Stores has no minimum transaction amount and neither does the retail store I worked for, neither does Tesco (the self-scanning machines anyway)

Is that where you developed your aversion to cash?

fletch

dub45 wrote:

Is that where you developed your aversion to cash?

lol oh god this thread is going nowhere.....mods feel free to close it.

nlgbbbblth

fletch wrote:

lol oh god this thread is going nowhere.....mods feel free to close it.

Not before you answer my question.

Please.

parsi

Simple solution. Do it the Ryanair way. If someone wants to use their card slap on an extra charge eg eur3 or whatever will bring it above the limit.

Of course then we'll have the "the thieves in IE charge me extra to use my credi card boo hoo bureacratic.. deco...anto...etc etc" threads..

Makaveli

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Your argument is pretty thin. You can't name a single significant retailer in this State who doesn't accept credit cards for small transactions.

I used to work in a Spar, pre Euro the minimum transaction amount to use a credit card (same with laser cards) was £5, after the Euro was introduced it was €6. The reason being that it cost the shop too much by taking credit cards for transactions below that limit.

fletch

nlgbbbblth wrote:

Not before you answer my question.

Please.

This one?

nlgbbbblth wrote:

Why not?

What have you got to hide?

Well given the over-reaction of certain boards members I wouldn't be surprised if they organised some vigilante hit squad to hunt me down! So I won't be answering your question.

antoinolachtnai

One Spar franchisee constitutes a significant retailer? Does Spar have a policy like this at national level?

SeanW

I think small stores in general adopt this policy.

Victor

antoinolachtnai wrote:

There is no free lunch. Everything has to be paid for. The labour and equipment costs of collecting coins are substantial. They are higher than the charges for credit card collection. You are saying that the cost of collecting coins and notes is more expensive than the cost of a credit card transaction. I am asking that you justify that.

The marginal cost of a cash transaction is small, seeing as you have to have staff there anyway. The marginal cost of a low value CC transaction is high.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

One Spar franchisee constitutes a significant retailer? Does Spar have a policy like this at national level?

I've seen it in various Spar- and Centra-type shops. They are franchises, so they don't have a central policy on this.

Does McDonalds accept CC?

nlgbbbblth

fletch wrote:

Well given the over-reaction of certain boards members I wouldn't be surprised if they organised some vigilante hit squad to hunt me down! So I won't be answering your question.

Vigilante hit squad?
You're somewhat wide off the mark.

It's a little embarrassing really. Ever since 'Caddyshack' and 'Vacation' I've been a fan of your work and the reason I asked what station was so that I could maybe go along to it some evening and hopefully catch a glimpse of you. Maybe even get an autograph.

That's all.

antoinolachtnai

Re Victor's post, it depends on management accounting semantics. I would say that the cost of cash handling is just as marginal as credit card charges. You don't need to empty the boxes as often or service the equipment as often if you don't handle as much cash. You obviously have to restructure to reduce your cost base accordingly, otherwise you won't accrue the savings. But that's just life in a rapidly changing world.

You are seriously underestimating the cost of handling coins. The bank charges up to 2 percent for dealing with coin lodgements.

Our man in Havana

Victor wrote:

Does McDonalds accept CC?

Yes, they do in fact.

qwertyphobia

I was buying clothes from a big store a few weeks ago I went to the till and it turned out the system for credit card payment was down at the moment since i didn't have the cash on me i couldn't get them that day, what you are suggesting is that I should have walked out of the shop with the clothes without paying for them.



Not been willing to state the stop you got on the train at this stage is looking more like you desperatly proping up your own lie about there not being a ATM machine within 50mins of the station.

SeanW

Bond-007 wrote:

Yes, they do in fact.

That's news to me.

fletch

qwertyphobia wrote:

I was buying clothes from a big store a few weeks ago I went to the till and it turned out the system for credit card payment was down at the moment since i didn't have the cash on me i couldn't get them that day, what you are suggesting is that I should have walked out of the shop with the clothes without paying for them.

I was waiting for someone to argue that point. I think my response to this would be that first of all the machine was not broken, it was incapable of processing my payment.
I do not have facts and figures to substantiate my following argument but I think one can agree it is not beyond the realms of reality. I think it is fair to say that a large percentage of transactions would be for single/return tickets. One would imagine that irishrail would provide as much facility as possible to sell these tickets by enabling them to be purchased using a credit card. Personally if I was running a business and I was providing a credit card facility, I would be ensuring that it could be used to purchase the items which sell the most.
Also on certain busy commuter routes, irishrail provides a grossly insufficient service with a gap of 1hr 51mins :eek: durin rush hour. Until such a time, when they can provide an adequate service I do not see how they can enforce such strict penalties when often times their trains do not keep to their scheduled times and could as a result leave a person stranded for nearly 2 hrs! :eek: