€6 minimum credit card transaction allowed?

fletch

Right long story short

Went to get the train into town today, tried to use the automated machines but it wouldn't accept my credit card cause you have to spend €6 minimum (so I'm told)...asked the girl behind the counter could she swipe it and was told no.

So get on the train(without a ticket), one stop later, on hops the ticket inspector. Tell him my story, he's having none of it and asks to see my ID to write me up a fine. I was continually offering to pay him but he said he didn't have the facility to charge my credit card. So anyway, I refuse to show him ID feeling that a fine is completely unncessary since I was willing to pay. At which point he calls his senior who contacts the Gardai.

Anyway my questions.

• Is it legal to have a minimum value on credit card transactions? (I have been told its illegal and its governed by AIB Merchant Services)
• If there is a minimum transaction value, does this have to be clearly advertised? (There was no signposts re same)
• Would the Gardai seriously have come to the "scene of the crime" lol? (I didn't wait around to find out)

I have a car but decided that I would give public transport a go....I think I can safely say, never again. I would have understood, maybe, had I looked a bit rough(not that that should have changed anythin but still) but I was dressed well and was up front about not having a ticket. I also told him that the girl at the station would verify that I attempted to pay
What are peoples opinions? I simply fail to see why the inspector couldn't have shown some discretion me and allowed to pay at the other end as I suggested.

Alun

Didn't you have any other money on you at all? The machines take notes as well as coins.

fletch

Alun wrote:

Didn't you have any other money on you at all? The machines take notes as well as coins.

I had 5 cent thats all! I dont carry cash as I dont normally use public transport and use my credit card for everything. Irishrail would really want to get with the times if they are to try entice people from their cars.

lostexpectation

I think your right you shouldn't use public transport I don't think public transport suits you, rather then the other way around!

fletch

lostexpectation wrote:

I think your right you shouldn't use public transport I don't think public transport suits you, rather then the other way around!

Thanks...your opinion I suppose which you are perfectly entitled to

John R

They aren't legally bound to accept credit cards at all.

You had the option of going to an ATM to get cash with your CC.

There are hefty transaction fees on retailers for credit card purchases so they would be taking a very large hit on such a small value purchase.

Like it or not you were fare-evading, it is up to you to sort out acceptable payment.

Oh and while i'm at it I'd like to point out how bloody annoying it is to have to wait in shops/train stations etc while people piss about paying for minor transactions with credit cards. It's just plain inconsiderate. If everyone did that there would be mile long queues to buy a loaf of bread like in communist russia.

fletch

John R wrote:

They aren't legally bound to accept credit cards at all.

You had the option of going to an ATM to get cash with your CC.

The nearest ATM would have been upwards of a 50min return journey

John R wrote:

Like it or not you were fare-evading, it is up to you to sort out acceptable payment.

Technically correct,

John R wrote:

Oh and while i'm at it I'd like to point out how bloody annoying it is to have to wait in shops/train stations etc while people piss about paying for minor transactions with credit cards. It's just plain inconsiderate. If everyone did that there would be mile long queues to buy a loaf of bread like in communist russia.

I agree also....as I said I don't actually make that many transactions. I am a student and my only expenditure at the moment is petrol to get me to college and that's it....

SeanW

You never go to a newsagent, pub, cinema etc?

MarkoP11

Plenty of shops won't allow credit card transactions below €10.00, I do get the feeling that €6.35 (£5) is a magic number. The banks can set transaction limits as part of the terms and conditions nothing illegal in that. They are in the small print, I did a stint in banking and the IT back end enforces limits and does refuse transactions. Its IE's bankers Bank of Ireland that set the limit not your card supplier.

You had ample opportunity to buy a ticket you did not, booking office was open, as such there is no requirement on the part of the ticket inspector to offer to sell you a ticket under these conditions and as such the official from IE is entitled by law (SI109 1984) to get take your details and issue a fine, it is an offense to refuse or to give false details. As such he is entitled. This power is granted under the Transport Act

Get a grip its totally unreasonable to show up with no change at all, no vendor has a legal obligation to accept anything other than cash

Far too many people have excuses, you broke the law, you got caught, pay the fine or go to court and loose. I don't care if you are well dressed you broke the law, the amount of money IE loose to fare evasion is significant, you couldn't pay at the other end anyway as the limits are the same. I'm very happy to see a very firm approach finally been taken not before time the end result is IE get the money they are entitled to which results is less pressure to raise fares, and we are all sick of fare increases, its one of the biggest complaints

I'd love to see you get a bus

fletch

SeanW wrote:

You never go to a newsagent, pub, cinema etc?

I can honestly say no in the last 3/4 months, I am in my final year in college and have not seen inside a pub in as long as i can remember....all my money goes on petrol and that's it, I withdraw maybe €10 cash a week which doesn't go far ...anyway this is getting off topic IMO

cormie

I wonder if you had bought whatever amount of tickets to make up the minimum, would the girl have bought them back off you?

fletch

MarkoP11 wrote:

Get a grip its totally unreasonable to show up with no change at all, no vendor has a legal obligation to accept anything other than cash

I disagree...I was aware that there was a facility to pay with credit card....I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that one should be able to use it to pay for your intended journey

MarkoP11 wrote:

you couldn't pay at the other end anyway as the limits are the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Dublin Connolly have an ATM on site....I also asked the inspector could he invoice me for the amount and I would pay.

MarkoP11 wrote:

I'd love to see you get a bus

I got one home...NOT a pleasant experience

fletch

cormie wrote:

I wonder if you had bought whatever amount of tickets to make up the minimum, would the girl have bought them back off you?

Hmmm never thought of that.....hindsight is a great thing

MarkoP11

Terms and Conditions of Carriage wrote:

Section A 22.2

Iarnród Éireann may not always be in a a postiion to give change, nor be in a position to process credit or debit cards either at station or on trains

Pay the fine, otherwise you will loose in courts and get stuck with a fine and possibly costs or you could end up in jail.

Rules are rules they are fair everything done by the book much as I would love to have a go at IE for once and a rare instance for it to happen it was all done by the book everything correctly and if it ends up in the court you will be snookered, the judge could have great fun.

The majority of us pay our fares correctly and we are not terribly happy with those who think they in some way think they can talk there way around not having a ticket, fare evasion is forcing the fares of the majority up

_Kaiser_

Actually I think the OP makes a valid point. In this day and age there's no excuse for CIE not being able to accept/process card payments. I often wouldn't have much change on me - that's WHY I have a laser/credit card.

Plus, by all accounts the OP was honest, calm and couteous to the staff involved, only to be met by the inflexible, outdated, beaucratic mindset so typical of CIE employees.

As he says, he doesn't use public transport regularly - how is he meant to know CIE's current (ever increasing I might add) fare structure, minimum payment requirements etc? Before you all start posting links to the CIE website, think of the irony that you're using one piece of everyday technology to prove your point, when CIE can't embrace another (much more common) one.

fletch wrote:

I have a car but decided that I would give public transport a go....I think I can safely say, never again.

Well done CIE.. another customer lost! :rolleyes:

dub45

If you use a service its up to you to be aware of the conditions attaching to using that service. Suppsoe we all got on the train and started waving our credit/laser cards? Why should an inspector have to invoice a passenger?

And how did the poster propose to pay for his journey eventually?

Simple fact he got on the train without a ticket - its the posters responsiblity to make sure he has a ticket nobody else's.

MarkoP11

dub45 wrote:

If you use a service its up to you to be aware of the conditions attaching to using that service. Suppsoe we all got on the train and started waving our credit/laser cards? Why should an inspector have to invoice a passenger?

And how did the poster propose to pay for his journey eventually?

Simple fact he got on the train without a ticket - its the posters responsiblity to make sure he has a ticket nobody else's.

What he said

Credit cards are excepted subject to quite reasonable terms common found elsewhere. The only complaint about credit cards I'm aware of is support for chip and pin at the vending machines, I've fished around and a contract is in place to deal with that, IE management don't seem worried about it.

Minimum transaction amounts are a fact of life down to the bank clearing the transactions and also the wiliness of the company to absorb the (significant) bank charges.

There are so many real problems in the system and this isn't one of them

murphaph

MarkoP11 wrote:

There are so many real problems in the system and this isn't one of them

Agreed. This is totally the op's fault and I'm certainly no fan of IE!

lostexpectation

fletch wrote:

I disagree...I was aware that there was a facility to pay with credit card....I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that one should be able to use it to pay for your intended journey
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Dublin Connolly have an ATM on site....I also asked the inspector could he invoice me for the amount and I would pay.
I got one home...NOT a pleasant experience

Do you use a credit card to buy a newspaper?

Im usually sympathetic to other stories of fine receivers here but not your case.

shltter

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Well done CIE.. another customer lost! :rolleyes:

He was not a customer to be a customer he would have to have bought something.

The guy is a fare evader.

SeanW

I find it absurd quite frankly that the OP didn't have any cash at all.

Believe me I've done stupid things with credit cards before like try buy a chocolate bar or bottle of Coke with it (a LONG time ago!) and you tend to get the picture re: Minimum transactions really fast. In some countries like the U.S. minimum transactions (especially on debit/ATM cards) are very rare but in this country they're a fact of life and it's up to you to know about them and carry a small amount of cash. That includes pubs, newsagents etc that don't take them at all, and indeed in my college, plastic wasn't taken anywhere, bookshops, canteen, etc.

When you first get a credit card or Laser, you may genuinely think you can do without cash from now on, but if you don't keep at least a tenner on you at all times, you're asking for problems.

The OP should accept the fine and chalk it up to (in)experience.

dub45

'only the little people carry cash' or something like that:rolleyes:

fletch

lostexpectation wrote:

Do you use a credit card to buy a newspaper?

SeanW wrote:

I find it absurd quite frankly that the OP didn't have any cash
at all.

As I have said before, I literally have no disposable income. And I did have cash on me....5 cent

dub45 wrote:

Suppsoe we all got on the train and started waving our credit/laser cards? Why should an inspector have to invoice a passenger?

You're just being pedantic now.

shltter wrote:

He was not a customer to be a customer he would have to have bought something.

The guy is a fare evader.

"Technically" yes on this occasion...habitually not. The first 3 years of college I used the train every day of which I bought a weekly ticket every week. Then while on a one year placement which involved getting two trains, two darts and two buses every day, I always had a valid ticket.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Actually I think the OP makes a valid point.
Plus, by all accounts the OP was honest, calm and couteous to the staff involved, only to be met by the inflexible, outdated, beaucratic mindset so typical of CIE employees.

THANK YOU! Not once was I abusive or rude. I would have said fair enough had there been a sign up indicating the credit card limit but nothing.

dub45

Simple fact: You should not have been on the train without a ticket.

Secondly why is pointing out that if everyone was to behave like you nothing would work pedantic? Its ok for you but not for everybody else to wave their credit card?

And if a burglar is caught on his first job its ok because 'habitually' he is not?

lostexpectation

I literally have no disposable income.

then why use a credit card for everything??????? it must cost you loads more then using cash for you daily needs even if it allows you to go into a negatve for your big purchases

fletch

lostexpectation wrote:

then why use a credit card for everything??????? it must cost you loads more then using cash for you daily needs even if it allows you to go into a negatve for your big purchases

I get free banking 'cause I'm a student. Obviously I have to pay €40 stamp duty a year. I don't really have daily needs as such....I eat before I leave the house in the morning and bring my lunch into college with me. This is all above and beyond the point anyway...the simple fact was that on this occasion I did not have any cash with me (bar 5 cent).

dub45 wrote:

Simple fact: You should not have been on the train without a ticket.

Not arguing with this point either, I am fully aware that it is an offence to be on a train without a valid ticket however the inspectors should and have done in the past used their discretion where they deem appropriate. Regularly when I used to get the train, the ticket office would be closed, there would be no weekly tickets left, no change to give etc etc and the inspector would give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

antoinolachtnai

Give this guy a break. A lot of people are using credit cards more and more. He has a perfectly reasonable expectation.

As I understand it, the reason the ticket machines don't accept CC for small transactions is because the transaction takes too long to process and this makes a big impact if there is a queue.

Other countries make this work. IE needs to get with the script.

But there's no excuse for travelling without a ticket blah blah blah.

dub45

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Give this guy a break. A lot of people are using credit cards more and more. He has a perfectly reasonable expectation.

As I understand it, the reason the ticket machines don't accept CC for small transactions is because the transaction takes too long to process and this makes a big impact if there is a queue.

Other countries make this work. IE needs to get with the script.

But there's no excuse for travelling without a ticket blah blah blah.

As someone has pointed out already it is not economical to take cards for very small payments because of the various charges invovled.

Regularly when I used to get the train, the ticket office would be closed, there would be no weekly tickets left, no change to give etc etc and the inspector would give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

So in reality you expected to get away with getting on the train without a ticket? You were sooooooooo unlucky to meet an unsympathetic inspector. And as I pointed out earlier you got on the train knowing you had no means of paying at the other end - so why should any inspector be 'sympathetic' to that sort of attitude? Why did you not go back home and get some change?

By the way you said that you got the bus home

I got one home...NOT a pleasant experience

How did you pay for that as you also say that you set out on your big adventure with only 5 cents on you:rolleyes:

steveland?

dub45 wrote:

'only the little people carry cash' or something like that:rolleyes:

Exactly what I thought when I first read this...

You do realise that shops or anywhere that accepts CCs have to pay for the luxury of you paying by CC? That's why places set minimum spend limits on CC payments... If you go paying e2 or something miniscule like that they're going to make ****-all money on your transaction... What would be the point of them accepting it?

It's up to you to have cash on you, not up to them to accept your CC. What if the CC machine had've been broken? What would you have done then?

The reliance of Credit Cards is ridiculous... You say you're a student? I can't wait to see whatever debts you're left with once you get your degree...

Also saying you could understand getting the gards if you looked rough? Get off your high horse...

A fare evader is a fare evader regardless of what D&G shoes or Armani shirts you're wearing ...

What else would you expect the inspector to do if you refused to show ID?

Roll over and say "Oh well you're dressed better than me, you must be an upstanding pillar of the community and therefore don't have to follow our rules and pay for the ticket before you get on the train as, since you're dressed well, I know you're going to pay when you get off"?

No he's going to do what he has to do, fine you. And then you get insolent and refuse to show him ID, he's going to call the gards...

You broke the law, you evaded the law, you come on here whinging because you couldn't use your credit card to pay for a 2 or 3 euro ticket when you could've easily gone to an ATM (don't tell us it was 50 minutes away... there's ATMs everywhere)

Personally I hope he got your details and they slap a big whopping fine on you. Also I hope you get up in court and tell them exactly the same story you told everyone here, down to the "but I was dressed well"... they're gonna love you...

antoinolachtnai

dub45 wrote:

As someone has pointed out already it is not economical to take cards for very small payments because of the various charges invovled.

What charges would these be exactly?

Do you think that the people who collect and count the coins and sell tickets in shops for IE do it for free? Handling cash and securing cash boxes is very expensive. Note readers in particular are expensive to maintain and are a long way from being fraud-proof. There is a lot of staff and equipment involved. Theft and shrinkage is a real issue. When you factor all this in, is extremely unlikely that you can collect the coins for a ticket for a lower price than the cost of a credit card transaction.

Some people here seem to have a puritannical attitude towards credit cards, and they seem to think this poor guy is rising above his station because he doesn't like to use cash. He came on here complaining about his problem getting a ticket and now he is being warned that he is in danger of becoming a financial deadbeat. That is just rubbish. Electronic payments are not a moral hazard. The rail company should be encouraging electronic payment.

Like I say, it works in other countries.

dub45

antoinolachtnai wrote:

What charges would these be exactly?

Do you think that the people who collect and count the coins and sell tickets in shops for IE do it for free? Handling cash and securing cash boxes is very expensive. Note readers in particular are expensive to maintain and are a long way from being fraud-proof. There is a lot of staff and equipment involved. Theft and shrinkage is a real issue. When you factor all this in, is extremely unlikely that you can collect the coins for a ticket for a lower price than the cost of a credit card transaction.

Some people here seem to have a puritannical attitude towards credit cards, and they seem to think this poor guy is rising above his station because he doesn't like to use cash. He came on here complaining about his problem getting a ticket and now he is being warned that he is in danger of becoming a financial deadbeat. That is just rubbish. Electronic payments are not a moral hazard. The rail company should be encouraging electronic payment.

Like I say, it works in other countries.

We are not talking about the ordinary day to day costs of collecting paymenets from the public. Each time you use a credit card the merchant 'suffers' a bank charge/discount for the privilege of the card being used in his business. So this bank discount makes it uneconomical for cards to be used for small transactions - it is applied throughout the world it is not just an irish issue.

The guy in question is getting a hard time because he is a fare evader plain and simple.

And by the way it is truly amazing that someone who has been operating their own form of the cashless society for the past three years has never come across this minimum requirement before.