[Article] New fleet of coaches has no access by wheelchair

Maskhadov

New fleet of coaches has no access by wheelchair
Tim O'Brien

Chief executive of the Equality Authority Niall Crowley has said he is "very disappointed" that Bus Éireann placed an order for 60 new intercity coaches which are not wheelchair-accessible.

Bus Éireann is to spend €16 million on the new fleet to come into service this July. The contract was awarded to international bus and coach builder Scania.

The coaches are ultra-modern and striking in design and have been acclaimed for their luxurious interior and high-tech features. The Scania Irizar PB was named "Coach of the Year" in 2004.

A spokeswoman for Bus Éireann said none of its intercity coach fleet was wheelchair-accessible, a factor attributed to a reluctance in the industry to manufacture wheelchair-accessible buses.

Coaches have higher-level seating than most buses, designed for passengers making longer journeys and allowing them to view passing scenery. They also have greater baggage space and generally larger engines. The Bus Éireann spokeswoman said there was no legislation around wheelchair-accessible coaches, and said the industry would "probably not make wheelchair-accessible buses until the legislation is there".

However, Scania has been manufacturing wheelchair-accessible coaches since at least 2003, according to its website. The Scania Irizar Century is a 15m (49ft) bus specially configured for expressway service. The website says it is a "three or four star tourist coach with seatbelts for all passengers". Crucially, it adds that it is equipped with a wheelchair lift at a middle door.

According to Mr Crowley there is existing legislation covering facilities for disabled people. He said a large part of the authority's caseload related to disability and in this transport was a huge problem.

Mr Crowley said the Equal Status Act "requires a reasonable accommodation for disabled people to be made unless it would be impossible". However he added that there was a "nominal cost exception" where transport operators could opt out if the cost was prohibitive.

In many intercity coaches, including those operated by private companies, the inclusion of wheelchair facilities would mean the removal of seats. A widening of the aisle, for example, would require a reduction in numbers from four seats per row to three.

Expressing his dismay at Bus Éireann's new fleet, Mr Crowley said it was particularly disappointing "as the whole thrust of public policy is moving in the other direction".

The new buses are to be funded through Bus Éireann's own resources. According to the company, the vehicles offer an improved layout with fewer seats than standard, advanced climate control and leather headrests.

Bus Éireann said its city bus services in provincial cities include wheelchair-accessible vehicles. The company carries 48 million customers annually.

© The Irish Times

AND IMPORTANTLY Why are these buses not twin axel ????????????:mad: :mad:

Bus Eireann should be ordering these for the intercity journeys

_Kaiser_

Maskhadov wrote:

AND IMPORTANTLY Why are these buses not twin axel ????????????:mad: :mad:

Bus Eireann should be ordering these for the intercity journeys

Agreed, but can you imagine squeezing that in/around the mess that is Busaras though?

John R

Maskhadov wrote:

AND IMPORTANTLY Why are these buses not twin axel ????????????:mad: :mad:

Because there is no reason to have three axles on a 12 metre coach. It is within the weight and structural limits for two axles.

Maskhadov wrote:

Bus Eireann should be ordering these for the intercity journeys

You obviously have never had to manouvere a large vehicle around Ireland.

A 15m coach is too big for irish roads. Many City streets, rural bohreens and regional towns are difficult enough to navigate in a 12m coach, that thing would be a complete nightmare to get around.

Street planners in Ireland take no account of the dimensions of large vehicles, lanes are marked out to accomodate cars not trucks or buses, with a 12m coach there are dozens of major junctions in Dublin that can just be navigated with 2-3inches to spare. The emergency removal of the pedestrian island at Leeson Street/Stephen's Green east to accomodate the Dublin Bus tri-axle deckers (which are only 12m long) is a perfect example. Regular 12m coaches could just get through but the slightly longer wheelbase of the deckers meant they couldn't fit at all. Another 3 metres length would make hundreds of junctions difficult and the raft of other obstructions (parked cars, roadworks) would be much more likely to be unpassable rather than a very tight squeeze.

AFAIK Bus Eireann have ordered a small number of 13m tri-axle coaches for their Eurolines services, as they spend all their time on UK motorways there isn't a big problem with the extra size.

dbnavan

As a Disability officer this raises alot of concerns for me, I plan to write to the Minister for transport and Bus Eireann on the Matter,

lostexpectation

what does a disabled accessible coach look like?

Maskhadov

John R wrote:

Because there is no reason to have three axles on a 12 metre coach. It is within the weight and structural limits for two axles.

Your forgetting the most important reason. Twin axels at the back of a coach enables people to have a far superior journey. We should at least be able to accomodate them on express Dublin - Cork, Dublin - Galway and Dublin - Belfast.

dbnavan

lostexpectation wrote:

what does a disabled accessible coach look like?

http://www.venturebustours.com/bus/home.gif

MarkoP11

A lot of what Bus Eireann are saying makes a lot of sense and Bus Eireann have been saying this for some time there is a reliance on getting a builder to agree to provide a coach to satisfy the needs of the operator

As it stands today there is no legislation in Ireland which defines in detail the requirements for accessibility on board public transport vehicles thats the first major issue, this is not just a Irish issue its a problem across Europe. We have section M from the building regs but nothing on public transport all we have is a "Outline Sectoral Plan for Accessible Transport" Vague legislation is no good highly detailed specific guidance is what you need.

Firstly accessibility goes way further than making it possible to take a wheelchair aboard, accessibility is about a whole lot more you are talking about things like colour contrasting grab rails, clear signage, a high level of contrast between surfaces, no sharp edges, priority seats which have greater leg room and easier to get into and out of and so on outwardly basic but very important in many ways I'd say would impact on a much greater number of people.

Speaking from the rail services side of things the RVAR regulations in the UK shook the European industry up they had to incorporate a raft of quite complex requirements into vehicles. New vehicles that don't comply are no allowed enter service or those currently with exemptions will be withdrawn if compliance is not achieved by the end of the emption period. Irish Rail claim to order there equipment to meet the specification but there is not one single railcar, dart or coach which meet all the requirements in service. In the absence of EU regulations most of the rest of Europe use the UK RVAR rules.

Basic problem is lack of EU wide regulations you can be damn sure if the entire EU block had a common set of accessibility standards the manufactures would suddenly have no difficulty, the other option being to cease trading. It has to be EU wide no point having different rules in different countries what happens on cross border services?

John R

Maskhadov wrote:

Your forgetting the most important reason. Twin axels at the back of a coach enables people to have a far superior journey. We should at least be able to accomodate them on express Dublin - Cork, Dublin - Galway and Dublin - Belfast.

Rubbish, twin axles do not have a significant effect on ride. The only reason for them is weight distribution, you may think that an extra set of wheels would improve ride but that is not necessarily true. A good chassis and suspension set up is much more important. If the geometry for a second rear axle is not designed perfectly it can make the ride worse.

Many of them do however have a very negative effect on handling, the ones I drove had a tendency to understeer, particularly in the wet or under heavy braking where the same chassis with a single back axle would hold the road much better. I have heard similar complaints regarding the up to date Dublin Bus ones also.

John R

lostexpectation wrote:

what does a disabled accessible coach look like?

A gigantic waste of money and space.

Wheelchair lifts are cumbersome, unreliable, slow, difficult to operate and quite dangerous.

For buses used regularly for disabled users they are OK but to fit them to service buses for occasional use then no.

There is currently one or two low-floor coaches on the market but they are not nearly at the standard of a basic hi-liner coach, if BE or any other operator replaced their current fleet with those they would not be popular with the 99.99% of non-wheelchair passengers.

In a few years there will probably be some better designed accessable coaches that would be reasonable replacements for standard coaches, until then BE and other operators are dead right not to touch wheelchair accessability.

BuffyBot

You also have the model used on the Oxford Tube (http://www.showbus.com/gallery/wm/oxtube.htm), which may not be suitable for BE's countrywide operation.

dbnavan

John R wrote:

A gigantic waste of money and space.

Wheelchair lifts are cumbersome, unreliable, slow, difficult to operate and quite dangerous.

For buses used regularly for disabled users they are OK but to fit them to service buses for occasional use then no.

There is currently one or two low-floor coaches on the market but they are not nearly at the standard of a basic hi-liner coach, if BE or any other operator replaced their current fleet with those they would not be popular with the 99.99% of non-wheelchair passengers.

In a few years there will probably be some better designed accessable coaches that would be reasonable replacements for standard coaches, until then BE and other operators are dead right not to touch wheelchair accessability.

Yea and I suppose all disabled people should be pushed into a corner in a and given a job of licking stamps all day for 2.75 an hour too, right? :rolleyes:

Cop on its 2006!

BuffyBot

You know, I could have almost sworn that doesn't have any resemblence to what he posted..

Victor

BuffyBot wrote:

You also have the model used on the Oxford Tube (http://www.showbus.com/gallery/wm/oxtube.htm), which may not be suitable for BE's countrywide operation.

I would have to check but double decker coaches might have a lower speed limit than single deck coaches.

John R

Victor wrote:

I would have to check but double decker coaches might have a lower speed limit than single deck coaches.

They do, 40mph. Until that stupid law is changed the use of double deckers on inter-urban routes is a non starter, except of course where someone is prepared to bypass the restrictor and drive them way above the legal limit.

Ulsterbus have purchased a number of them for express services, they are not currently using them on the cross-border services.

In the UK the speed limit for any bus, including double deckers is 50mph on single carriageways, 60mph on dual carriageways and 70mph on Motorways.

There is no good reason for the blanket 40mph/50mph limit here.

BuffyBot

Wouldnt the low bridges etc on some routes be a problem also?

lostexpectation

i think john r is slightly right in what he said unfortunate as it is, What does disabled access 15m coach look like, the disability group mentioned coach usa and I went to their site and didn't see any pics or details of accesibilty...

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0502/access.html

Maskhadov

€16m bus deal halted due to disability concerns
Áine Kerr

A €16 million contract to deliver 60 new intercity coaches which are not wheelchair-accessible has been withdrawn pending further discussions, according to the National Disability Authority.

Following interventions yesterday by the Minister for Transport and the National Disability Authority (NDA), Bus Éireann confirmed it would examine the possibility of procuring a number of wheelchair-accessible coaches to use on a trial basis.

Bus Éireann had originally planned to spend € 16 million on a new bus fleet but its plans were criticised for failing to facilitate wheelchair users.

Last night a Bus Éireann spokeswoman said the company had been considering the possibility of getting wheelchair-accessible buses and had discussed this with manufacturers. However, there had been an appreciation within the Public Transport User Group that the design solutions proposed to date had been unsuitable from an operational, safety or customer viewpoint.

However, she added, "It is hoped that new prototypes coming on stream may overcome these issues."

Last night's development follows complaints from the NDA that the decision to order buses which are not wheelchair-accessible contravened Sections 26 and 27 of the Disability Act, 2005.

NDA chairwoman Angela Kerins, who earlier expressed her concerns to the department, received confirmation from CIÉ that the company would be withdrawing the €16 million contract pending discussions with the NDA.

"The Department of Transport has always been extremely good in terms of accessibility and this incident was most unusual for them, because they have always been one of the best departments to deal with," she said.

She said the NDA would meet CIÉ chairman John Lynch in the coming days to emphasise the importance of making all public transport accessible as required under the Disability Act.

A department spokeswoman last night confirmed that Transport Minister Martin Cullen contacted CIÉ regarding the commercially operated buses and had expressed the need for the contract to be reviewed.

© The Irish Times

How many disabled people would use public transport anyway ? Putting in disabled facilities might decrease the capacity for nothing

parsi

Have Aircoach wheelchair friendly vehicles ? Or JJ Kavanagh..?

neilled

parsi wrote:

Have Aircoach wheelchair friendly vehicles ? Or JJ Kavanagh..?

The Irish public through their taxes and fares own buseireann. Surely if it is a state owned company it needs to be acessable to all citizens!

parsi

neilled wrote:

The Irish public through their taxes and fares own buseireann. Surely if it is a state owned company it needs to be acessable to all citizens!

Indeed. But why shouldn't private companies be required to provide the same services...?

MarkoP11

So what do you do if they privatise?

The law applies equally to both public and private entities

As far as I can tell there is no specific legal requirement which defines precisely (UK RVAR rules come with a 27 page checklist) what is meant by accessibility in terms of transport, this void means what one group deem accessible may not be accepted by others

Red Alert

Are they really suggesting that the current crop of bus eireann coaches be phased out and single-decker buses replace them?

I don't see what's wrong with doing it like the coach pictured a few a posts ago where the wheelchair lift is part of the centre-exit (i'd imagine it should be on the kerbside not the offside). Both the bus eireann spokesgirl and the disability person this morning on Morning Ireland seemed not to be in favour of this option.

Putting it at the front of the coach (ie at the main door) would make the bus look hideously ugly, would inconvenience the majority of non-disabled fare-paying passengers and would mean a more unreliable bus. Therefore moving the centre-exit door to the nearside and fitting the lift there is a much better option. All the passenger would have to do is indicate to the driver they wish to use the lift (which he'd see anyway) and he'd come and do it for them.

The lift would then be bolt-on extra to a suitably modified coach. There would be no danger of valuable buying criteria like Engine, Transmission, AV System, Aircon being lost in the noise of pleasing so few.

In the short term what could be done is to purchase/reallocate a few commuter service buses and run them at specific times as disabled accessible non-expressway services.

Bogger77

neilled wrote:

The Irish public through their taxes and fares own buseireann. Surely if it is a state owned company it needs to be acessable to all citizens!

Surely I, has a tax payer, am entitled not to have to run the risk of being hit by a bus which has to struggle to manover round corners, roundabouts and "Traffic Calming" islands etc, because it is over sized. It's hard enough manover round some of the "expressway" routes, example the roundabout at the Train/Bus station in Athlone with a standard bus, it'd be a nightmare with an extra 3 meters at the back. How do you suggest BusEireann buses heading to Castlebar/Westport via the N5 take the Corner in Ballaghdereen in an unarticulated monster of a bus? Should they avoid these areas, would that not be deemed as discriminating against the people who lived in that area?

I lived for 2 years on the 46A route, with the lovely ramps/kneeling buses. I cannot recall ever seeing a disabled person, in the sense of wheelchair bound person ever use the route. I would have been travelling in non rush hour times (after 9oc in the evenings). And I have travelled on routes all over Dublin, and it's rare that a person other than a mother+push chair used low floor capabilities, while I was on board.

Red Alert

And for the privilage we all get a poorer ride quality. You're closer to the ground so you notice speed changes, bumps etc. more.

It seems like the disability lobby are running the bus service in Ireland now.

_Kaiser_

Something like this might do for the shorter runs? (not the best pic though).
The wheelchair area is at the front with the rest of the bus being the more standard raised coach layout.

John R

parsi wrote:

Have Aircoach wheelchair friendly vehicles ? Or JJ Kavanagh..?

No and No.

Kavanaghs may have one or two minibuses for special purposes but none of their service buses are accessible.

John R

neilled wrote:

The Irish public through their taxes and fares own buseireann. Surely if it is a state owned company it needs to be acessable to all citizens!

The expressway services that these buses were destined for is self-financing. All of the state subvention to Bus Eireann goes on the rural and city services.

All of the city and short distance buses purchased have been low-floor accessible buses.

Essentially the people who use the service are the ones who pay for it.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Something like this might do for the shorter runs? (not the best pic though).
The wheelchair area is at the front with the rest of the bus being the more standard raised coach layout.

That bus has been doing the rounds now for a few years, it was with BE for a test and has been trialled by most major operators in the UK also. Only a handful have been sold which says something about how impressed operators have been with it.

The problem is it is not nearly good enough to replace a regular coach, far too expensive for commuter/medium distance runs and unsuitable for city/high density services.


Here are some pics of the Ulsterbus double deck coach, if we got the speed limit issue sorted something like this would be a reasonable solution.

http://edwardmiller.fotopic.net/c919401.html

Red Alert

That's an interesting bus Kaiser but i still think the old Scania/Irizar's that they have now would be better for going to say Cork and back.

BuffyBot

That's an interesting bus Kaiser but i still think the old Scania/Irizar's that they have now would be better for going to say Cork and back.

The one is his pic is only designed for commuter runs, not long distance

neilled

Red Alert wrote:

Are they really suggesting that the current crop of bus eireann coaches be phased out and single-decker buses replace them?

I don't see what's wrong with doing it like the coach pictured a few a posts ago where the wheelchair lift is part of the centre-exit (i'd imagine it should be on the kerbside not the offside). Both the bus eireann spokesgirl and the disability person this morning on Morning Ireland seemed not to be in favour of this option.

Putting it at the front of the coach (ie at the main door) would make the bus look hideously ugly, would inconvenience the majority of non-disabled fare-paying passengers and would mean a more unreliable bus. Therefore moving the centre-exit door to the nearside and fitting the lift there is a much better option. All the passenger would have to do is indicate to the driver they wish to use the lift (which he'd see anyway) and he'd come and do it for them.

The lift would then be bolt-on extra to a suitably modified coach. There would be no danger of valuable buying criteria like Engine, Transmission, AV System, Aircon being lost in the noise of pleasing so few.

In the short term what could be done is to purchase/reallocate a few commuter service buses and run them at specific times as disabled accessible non-expressway services.

The side door solution was exactly what i had in mind - most private coaches i've been on seem to have a side exit on the right hand side, sometimes with a toilet. Bus Eireanns coaches don't seem to have this or if they do the side door is never used even if the bus is full. I thought that would be an ideal place to whack a lift.

I'm not suggesting that all buses would need to be retro fitted but starting from now gradually roll out acessable buses and mark when they will be on the timetable.

As for Mr 46a somewhere up above, i've seen wheelchair users on the 11, a much less frequent service than the 46a since Jan, which is odd since i normally cycle and am a very occassional bus user!