Which hand do you prefer?

RoundTower

You are playing hold'em. You raise it up before the flop and get one or more callers. Which do you prefer:

- You have AA and there is no A on the flop.
- You have AK and there is an A or K (not both) on the flop.

If you say "it depends", explain what it depends on.

StraddleFor6

Think it depends whether the board is uncoordinated or not, but in general AK. I find it a lot easier to get away from than AA.

ArmaniJeanss

I marginally prefer the first. I'd consider it a 'safer flop'. I play $15STTs on Tribeca and a flop of say QT9r will get paid off by KQ, KT etc on a regular basis. They gleefully raise you all in thinking they are murdering your middle pair. OK sometimes they'll have a set/2 pair, but not often enough to hurt.

Nothing hugely wrong with the 2nd either, it hard to predict just how low people will go with their kickers etc, but generally at $15STT level, AK on a Axx board will get paid off by people who think they have 1 of only 2 Aces in the deck. Sometimes you'll be stunned to be beaten by A2o but hey, just start another game.

ocallagh

I prefer the second. More chance of getting paid.

fuzzbox

ocallagh wrote:

I prefer the second. More chance of getting paid.

How do you work that out?

fuzzbox

AA of course.

ocallagh

fuzzbox wrote:

How do you work that out?

Obviously pre-flop I prefer AA.

In most of the games I play (MTTs etc) most players cannot drop their Ace rag hands. They also cannot drop TP on the flop. This combination is great for AK with an ace on the flop.

With AA you rely on the other punter having KK/QQ/JJ/TP which is not as likely IMO.

Hectorjelly

AA is better because its hidden and people pay off overpairs, AK is better on a A/K hi board because AA has 2 less outs going against it. Still AA is far better

Hectorjelly

ocallagh wrote:

With AA you rely on the other punter having KK/QQ/JJ/TP which is not as likely IMO.

Actually the exact opposite is true, with AA someone else is more likely to have top pair. The chance of someone having an overpair to the board (that you beat) is also greater.

shoutman

Hectorjelly wrote:

Actually the exact opposite is true, with AA someone else is more likely to have top pair. The chance of someone having an overpair to the board (that you beat) is also greater.

Agreed,

I would go for aa every time.

RoundTower

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

I marginally prefer the first. I'd consider it a 'safer flop'. I play $15STTs on Tribeca and a flop of say QT9r will get paid off by KQ, KT etc on a regular basis.

Is this really a "safer flop" for AA? Assume you are not playing against morons.

And let's say you have this specific board. OK AA isn't a bad hand to have here, but wouldn't you be better off holding AQ, if you're up against the hand range you mentioned?

ocallagh

Hectorjelly wrote:

Actually the exact opposite is true, with AA someone else is more likely to have top pair. The chance of someone having an overpair to the board (that you beat) is also greater.

Sorry, I wasn't very accurate in my last post. My logic is totally skewed based on the amount of MTTs that I have played. I would certainly agree with you in a 2/4 or 3/6 game.

My main point was:

In a lot of small buy in MTTs it is quite common for Ax to call pre-flop and call off their entire stack when the ace hits. So many terible players get into the MTTs... and there are a lot of Ax combinations out there... It just seems more likely to me.

I actually think it is quite rare that I get paid off by smaller overpairs on the flop, reason being KK/QQ/JJ seem to get it all in pre-flop in a lot of the MTTs I play. If there is a flop, you can normally rule out KK:D

So to summarise, in an MTT on Tribeca I'd definitely prefer the AK on an Ace flop.

I'd love if PT could generate stats on Tribeca MTTs.

Hectorjelly

ocallagh wrote:

I would certainly agree with you in a 2/4 or 3/6 game.

makes no difference what game you are playing, if the flop is Axx and you have AK there are only two more aces out there that someone can use to make top pair, if you have AA on Jxx board there are 3 jacks


another benefit is ifyou raise preflop 88-TT will often be happy to get all in as long as there is no Ace, King or Queen

ocallagh

Hectorjelly wrote:

makes no difference what game you are playing, if the flop is Axx and you have AK there are only two more aces out there that someone can use to make top pair, if you have AA on Jxx board there are 3 jacks

I disagree. I am only talking about cards that are in play, and for that reason the type of game does come into consideration. If people are more likely to play A2 than J2 it makes a difference.

Hectorjelly

Bad players tend to play badly at all games, not just tournaments. I dont think that the tendancy of players in tournaments to overplay Ax is much greater than in cash games, and I dont think its enough to fade the 33% decrease in likelyhood of top pair that having the ace in your hand means.

ocallagh

Hectorjelly wrote:

Bad players tend to play badly at all games, not just tournaments. I dont think that the tendancy of players in tournaments to overplay Ax is much greater than in cash games, and I dont think its enough to fade the 33% decrease in likelyhood of top pair that having the ace in your hand means.

Ok, point taken.. but I'm such a stubborn bollocks i'm gonna have to review my MTT stats to prove it to myself:D

RoundTower

I expect people to play worse in tournaments than in cash games at comparable stakes. Also, in any hold'em game, it is more likely someone is holding top pair on an A high flop than on a J high flop, simply because people play aces a lot more than jacks. This should balance out the decreased chance someone has top pair because you are killing one of the aces.

cardshark202

I choose AA.

Hitman Actual

I prefer AA.

If you raise it up preflop, your opponent is more likely to get away from a second best hand when you hold AK (and hit one of the pairs on the flop).

kincsem

I feel happier with AK.

With AA you have to try to get paid early. Or else you must give free cards and hope you are still ahead.

With AK you will often be sharing the board cards with another player / you are probably ahead / you will get paid.

You are giving us a choice of AA or AA with a K kicker. I think a king kicker is good. KK with an A kicker will also beat most.

pok3rplaya

fuzzbox wrote:

AA of course.

and its not even close.

1) More hidden hand
2) Better implied odds. You raise preflop with AK and flop comes A high there goes your action (assumng half decent opponent)
3) More straight up equity.
4) Post flop gets action off lower overpairs. Consider an opponent with QQ on an A high flop while you have AK. You get little action compared to a T high flop when you have AA
5) Stronger preflop (its the nuts)
6) Gets action off floaters.
7) Opponent is more likely to have top pair under your AA (and your AA is hidden).

I'm sure there's more I can't think of.

AmarilloFats

AA and it ain't close.

Of course we're stacked more with AA than any other hand.... and I reckon that's gonna continue, hopefully.

Bandana boy

AA and i cant believe there is a discussion
range of hands that call you for all there stack beaten(or reallky far behind) is a lot bigger than range of hands that call you beaten on Axx with AK

pok3rplaya

AmarilloFats wrote:

AA and it ain't close.

Of course we're stacked more with AA than any other hand.... and I reckon that's gonna continue.

It's still everyones highest EV hand. As long as everyone isn't totally stupid.

AmarilloFats

Post edited playa.

pok3rplaya

AmarilloFats wrote:

Post edited playa.

Sorry I actually misunderstood your first post. I thought you were saying that we get stacked more often than not when we hold AA. My bad.

jacQues

RoundTower wrote:

You are playing hold'em. You raise it up before the flop and get one or more callers. Which do you prefer:
- You have AA and there is no A on the flop.
- You have AK and there is an A or K (not both) on the flop.
If you say "it depends", explain what it depends on.

It depends.

In a cash game: AA every time.
In a tournament: AK every time.

jacQues

cardshark202

jacQues wrote:

It depends.

In a cash game: AA every time.
In a tournament: AK every time.

jacQues

Care to elaborate on this unique logic?

Mr. Flibble

For me, the deeper stacked we are the less I prefer AA.
The more callers there are the more I'd perfer AK.


Overall I'd prefer AA especially if there is a K or Q as the only high card on the flop.

jacQues

cardshark202 wrote:

Care to elaborate on this unique logic?

Basically, in a cash game your strategy is based on making the most money possible. If you encounter a bad beat, you simply top-up and continue. As this 'happens'. If you play well you should be up overall.

Tournaments have a very different strategy. You need to stay in it and gain chips. A big loss can mean an early exit. For the same reason, a good win at the start can help you halfway through the tournament.

AA has the best odds. Therefore in a cash game you want that hand. If you get a bad beat so what?

AK (especially if suited) is the best hand in a tournament. On the flop you should know what the story is. Therefore, its much safer. Not to meantion easier to get away from.

jacQues

pok3rplaya

jacQues wrote:

Basically, in a cash game your strategy is based on making the most money possible. If you encounter a bad beat, you simply top-up and continue. As this 'happens'. If you play well you should be up overall.

Tournaments have a very different strategy. You need to stay in it and gain chips. A big loss can mean an early exit. For the same reason, a good win at the start can help you halfway through the tournament.

AA has the best odds. Therefore in a cash game you want that hand. If you get a bad beat so what?

AK (especially if suited) is the best hand in a tournament. On the flop you should know what the story is. Therefore, its much safer. Not to meantion easier to get away from.

jacQues

This way of thinking about decisions in poker is horrible. Think long term.