Leargas 7.30 tonight

Aquos76

Just a heads up to let people know about Leargas which is just about to start. Sorry about short notice.
Tonight edition is:
" A report on how Waterford City Council want to take over six thousand acres ot the best land in South Kilkenny"

meldrew

Saw the programme very good , its probably repeated late at night during the week knowing rte so anyone who missed it can get to tape it

mike65

I like the loaded programme title Aquos76!

Was it of any interest or even fair?

Mike.

Aquos76

IMO it was very one sided. Dick Dowling was on mouthing off about the GAA and about Waterford Golf Club been in Kilkenny and taking part in lenister competitions. He also referred to the fact that the members of the golf club resented this. All his arguments were based on how successful Kilkenny have been in the past. There were 5 guys from slieverue also on where Kilkenny jerseys who all wanted to remain in Kilkenny for GAA reasons.

Mary Roche was the on representing Waterford. Her only reference to the GAA was if someone was to play for whatever club or county, leave them decide themselves.

Jack Burchall(local historian) also gave a insight in to how the boundary has been increased 4 or 5 times over the last 100 years.

It was a very well made programme with some very good view of our city. Waterford Corp have to date received over 10,000 objectors to the proposed boundary extension. Most of these are from Kilkenny.

Freddie59

Aquos76 wrote:

IMO it was very one sided. Dick Dowling was on mouthing off about the GAA and about Waterford Golf Club been in Kilkenny and taking part in lenister competitions. He also referred to the fact that the members of the golf club resented this. All his arguments were based on how successful Kilkenny have been in the past. There were 5 guys from slieverue also on where Kilkenny jerseys who all wanted to remain in Kilkenny for GAA reasons.

Mary Roche was the on representing Waterford. Her only reference to the GAA was if someone was to play for whatever club or county, leave them decide themselves.

Jack Burchall(local historian) also gave a insight in to how the boundary has been increased 4 or 5 times over the last 100 years.

It was a very well made programme with some very good view of our city. Waterford Corp have to date received over 10,000 objectors to the proposed boundary extension. Most of these are from Kilkenny.

Saw it too. The bould Dick lives about 30 metres from the City boundary and has spent his life working in Waterford....but ultimately the programme revolved around hurling.:rolleyes:

Had to laugh at the lads in Slieverue (all speaking with Waterford accents!) about how worried they were that they wouldn't win some obscure Junior League title. Talk about prioritising!! And as for yer man with the tape running across the hall demonstrating the boundary........

Thought the best one was the Historian who does the Waterford walking/talking tours (he was very good actually) turned out to be from KK. I always said there was nothing there worth talking about.........:p

Aquos76

Freddie59 wrote:

Thought the best one was the Historian who does the Waterford walking/talking tours (he was very good actually) turned out to be from KK. I always said there was nothing there worth talking about.........:p

That was funny alright. Spends all his days doing these walking tours around the city and then he tells us he is kilkenny through and through...

meldrew

Best comment out of him was something along the lines of " if your shirt was robbed it does'nt matter whether it was yesterday or a hundred years ago it's still robbed " and he really meant it ! What a plonker

Our man in Havana

Any idea of when it will be repeated?

Freddie59

meldrew wrote:

Best comment out of him was something along the lines of " if your shirt was robbed it does'nt matter whether it was yesterday or a hundred years ago it's still robbed " and he really meant it ! What a plonker

Some craic alright! The topic of discussion was essentially how to properly administer a sprawling urban area, which Mary Roche presented very well, but, with the Kilkenny people, it just ended up about........hurling.:eek: :rolleyes:

Talk about getting your priorities straight..........

kano476

showed the kilkenny folks as ignorant hicks which they deserve if they let people like that on the t.v.

trishw78

I resent that Comment we're not ignoriant hicks... We're proud of our heritage and alot of great Kilkenny Hurlers came from the Slieverue area...

Fair enough Dick Dowling does get on Peoples wicks abit but, he has a fair point the Golf Club is in Kilkenny, as is Waterford Port (Bellview)

I was abit disapointed to see only one representative form WCC on Leagus.

road_high

I agree 100%.People have a right to defend their county which has a deep rooting for all Irish people,not just KK people.Just because they love GAA and want to remain part of KK doesnt mean they are automatically 'hicks'!!!

How would Waterford people like if we demanded a big chunk of their county for ourselves??Or if Tipp or Cork wanted the same in say Clonmel or Youghal towns which are also right on the borders??
They wudnt like it one bit and rightly so;same as all those people in South KK who oppose this...You really have to put urself in their shoes to understand it.

Aquos76

I live about 20 yards outside the Boundary, so technically I am in South Kilkenny. I am 100% in favour of what Waterford CC are proposing. Kilkenny Co Co don't give a toss about the residents of ferrybank.

I, only last year built an extension on to my home and I had to apply for PP to Kilkenny Co Co, which in itself was a nightmare. All my dealing had to be done through there planning department up in Kilkenny. When planning was eventually granted the imposed a fee of €3200 development charges on me, which I knew shag all about. They wanted me to pay for services which I already had paid for when I bought the house.

I got onto Waterford Corp about these charges and they informed me as it was only an extension onto an existing house, if I was in Waterford, these charges would not be applicable to me.

Anyway I refused to pay these outrages charges and after numerous letters to and fro I did however have to pay, but a reduced fee of €1050 or something like that. To be fair I don't think its only Kilkenny that charge this fee on extensions, but you have to question the legality of it. You are not actually getting anything back in return for it.

With regards to taxing my car. I have purchased 4 new cars in the time I am living in ferrybank and all 4 have been registered in Waterford. Why the hell would I want KK plates on my car when I earn my living in Waterford and do all my shopping in Waterford.

As for Dick Dowling, he cares about no one but himself. He is living down there in Newrath and you'd imagine that he would care, but he's not better that the rest of them. I actually got in touch with him about this charge and he did not want to know.

On the program, he came across as been totally anti Waterford, but hey does anyone actually know where he works and does his shopping and socialises. Yes you guessed it Waterford City.

So hopefully when this goes up in front of the minister, he will see through this petty GAA excuse and grant Waterford what they are looking for.

road_high

I suggest u move back into Waterford then if its that good!!!U choose to live in KK.I couldnt move over the border to another county and suddenly decide, oh, I don't like living under Laois Co Co. or whoever, and demand that it become part of KK overnight.

You are living in Co. KK, like it or not..They are loadsa of roads and places in my neighbouring counties of Laois and N Tipp where I could point that their County CO could do more but in all fairness its nothing got to do with me coz its in a different juristication!Same as south KK is part of Kilkenny.Im certain that KK county councils budget is stretched to the limit at the best of times.
And as you've pointed out, council charges apply in other counties as well.Do u honestly think life wud be so different under Waterford City council??
I sincerely doubt it somehow...
FF can expect heavy losses in Carlow KK next election if they let this madness through.As i've said already how would Waterford people like it if Tipp or Cork decided they wanted a chunk off them??
The sane solution to this would be to set up some kind of urban council for the Ferrybank area to handle planning etc, with input from both councils.It could work if people left their emotions out of it.

Bards

If people left their emotions out of it as you suggest, then the most logical thing to do would be to extend the City Boundary so that the city can expand in an even and not a lopsided way

road_high

Yes but that works on both sides of the argument.I sense some some kind of 'invader' like mentality from the Waterford side and its not very pleasant to see...
Nobody seems to say how they would feel if part of Waterford were to become part of another county?Only then could u understand how and why all KK people oppose this.
I think establishing some kind of urban council in the area would serve the area well, and answer all the claims of Waterford people who say that the area is negl;ected infrastructurally under Kilkenny..Or maybe its about more than just developing the infrastructure there??

Bards

if for example Carrick-on-suir on the south side became part of Tipp.. I and many others wouldn't see it as a problem and would see it as part of a normal and logical planning/administrative function for the benefit of Carrick-on-Suir as a whole.


But we are not talking about Carrick-on-suir etc we are talking about Waterford City growing. How it grows is up to the people and the dept of the environment. Do they want it to grow in an organised logical fashion creating a small compact city of critical mass aka the national spatial strategy....or....

...do they want a city that is not compact or organised with urban sprall two administrative areas creating bitterness and chaos with people living next to each other yet paying substantially different levies and charges. This is what it is about,not whether we want to play hurling for Kilkenny/Waterford.

it is the economic future for our children and their children's children. The sooner we all see this then the better it will for everybody inc Kilkenny people.

if you want better Infrastructure, schools, playing fields,libraries then vote for the bounday change

if however you want things to remain as they are then go right ahaead and block the boundary extension and let people in the corridors of power in Dublin laugh at all the infighting and let them sleep safe in the knowledge that the South East will never challenge their economic might.

Creating a third entity is just a red herring and will create even more problems than it will solve, more red tape, more waste, duplication of resources, etc.

road_high

Its good to know that Waterford people are so liberal about their own boundaries so...In that case they won't mind one bit if Clonmel town council etc. come knocking on their doors one day demanding part of their county as their own!!

I have been saying time and time again that every single person and authority do need to work together and lobby for their fair share of development.Only through proper roads,university,etc etc can the s East develop to its full potential (and I believe it can, it was once the most prosperous part of Ireland long before the Celtic Tiger).

But this will definitely not be achieved by one county annexing part of another for its own selfish needs unfortuanately.There is a real geniune fear in KK that if this boundary move gets through where will it all end?When will Waterord be satisfied?When they are up as far as Mullinavat or even Ballyhale?U can't argue with peoples gut feelings on this one.Another real fear is that if this allowed through, will New Ross and Carrick on Suir town councils suddenly see this an opportunity for them and make similar applications!

I would plead with both sides (councils) here to just sit down and discuss this a rational manner and have give and take on BOTH sides!!

Bards

mfitzy wrote:

Its good to know that Waterford people are so liberal about their own boundaries so...In that case they won't mind one bit if Clonmel town council etc. come knocking on their doors one day demanding part of their county as their own!!

I have been saying time and time again that every single person and authority do need to work together and lobby for their fair share of development.Only through proper roads,university,etc etc can the s East develop to its full potential (and I believe it can, it was once the most prosperous part of Ireland long before the Celtic Tiger).

But this will definitely not be achieved by one county annexing part of another for its own selfish needs unfortuanately.There is a real geniune fear in KK that if this boundary move gets through where will it all end?When will Waterord be satisfied?When they are up as far as Mullinavat or even Ballyhale?U can't argue with peoples gut feelings on this one.Another real fear is that if this allowed through, will New Ross and Carrick on Suir town councils suddenly see this an opportunity for them and make similar applications!

I would plead with both sides (councils) here to just sit down and discuss this a rational manner and have give and take on BOTH sides!!

If different councils lobby for "Their" share of development you will never create critical mass need for university etc.. all you will do is spread development too thinly and create a bit of everything everywhere but nothing substantial. Waterford needs the other counties in the South East as much as the South East needs Waterford, "the regional capital and gateway."

time and again I have been saying it that we need to look past the county boundaries that were put in place by the British Empire and create new ones that reflect the country we live in tooday. The Ireland of the 21st century bears no resemblance to the Ireland of the past.

If the bounday is extended we will have a city approaching 60,000 inhabitants enough of a critical mass to Demand University, Demand Better Roads,Rail Playing pitches, Demand Raditheraphy and all the other things that Glaway,Limerick get without having to beg.

What is there to fear from economic betterment?

road_high

So Waterford is being entirely selfless and this extension is for the betterment of the whole south east?Pull the other one, its about increased revenues for the city council at the end of the day.

I meant 'their' fair share as in the whole south east region, not just individual counties in the region against eachother.

Your concept of critical mass only centred on Waterford city would be a very hard pill for people distant from it such as in Carlow, North Wex and North KK.They would see it as everything being centred on one large urban centre;i.e. the real fear that hospital services would be entirely centerd on Waterford as envisaged by the Hanley report.What use would this be to some criticallty ill 50 miles away?

Same goes for jobs etc.

The reason Limerick and Galway have been so successful is down largely to their considerable clout;thats how it works in this country.You have political clout and influence at that cabinet table things get done.We are at last seeing some evidence of this through M Cullen (not someone I admire i.e. 50 million down the drain on e-voting) and he seems to be pushing through on the N9 and Waterfords bypass.

Bards

I reckon you have answered my point for me I reckon kilkenny people are ABW "Anybody But Waterford".. Govt are not going to create two three or four regional hospitals in the South East. to cater for Carlow,Kilkenny Tipp Wexford etc. Waterford is the gateway fact...get over it..

I am not replying to any more posts on this topic as I feel I have given a thourough economic argument as to why the boundary extension should go ahead without reverting to loosing moeny or the GAA. This is why we are not doing as well as Galway Limerick Cork etc.

road_high

Most definitely not 'ABW', not a term ive even heard before!!Seems a bit like paronia!!

Its not about creating regional hosps in each county;that would be ludricoius but all services cannot and should not be based in one single geographical area.There has to be give and take, espec in the s East where there are many towns of similiar size and population.

Of course u haven't had to revert to arguments about loosing money etc cos Waterford has everything to gain from this and we have everything to loose.
I love my county like all Irish people do and make no apologies whatsoever in defending its integrity!

Where did i mention the GAA- i dont even like hurling!!But it does mean a lot to some people and their views have to be taken on board too.

I never once disputed that Waterford is the main town in the s East. As such it should show maturity and leadership for the whole region and abandon its border plans.It will take hell of a lot more than than border extensions for us to catch up at the end of d day...End of.

Freddie59

mfitzy wrote:

Most definitely not 'ABW', not a term ive even heard before!!Seems a bit like paronia!!

Its not about creating regional hosps in each county;that would be ludricoius but all services cannot and should not be based in one single geographical area.There has to be give and take, espec in the s East where there are many towns of similiar size and population.

Of course u haven't had to revert to arguments about loosing money etc cos Waterford has everything to gain from this and we have everything to loose.
I love my county like all Irish people do and make no apologies whatsoever in defending its integrity!

Where did i mention the GAA- i dont even like hurling!!But it does mean a lot to some people and their views have to be taken on board too.

I never once disputed that Waterford is the main town in the s East. As such it should show maturity and leadership for the whole region and abandon its border plans.It will take hell of a lot more than than border extensions for us to catch up at the end of d day...End of.

Some facts:

1. South Kilkenny would be a wasteland were it not for Waterford City. It depends on the City for it's very existence in the form of all health, educational, and infrastructural services.

2. Waterford is not a 'main town' - it is the Regional capital. Elsewhere in the world a city is allowed to develop in a radial fashion - even in the US where it crosses STATE boundaries.

3. An extension is invevitable. It will happen (not this time but in the next ten years).

4. The primary argument put forward in Leargas was.....hurling. It showed the narrow-mindedness and short-sightedness of your county compatriots.
Dick Dowling v Mary Roche looked like 1930s v 21st century. A man who spent his life working in, and earning his living from, Waterford and it's citizens....and not a poitive word to say about the place (it's called biting the hand that feeds you).

5. There are no other 'towns' of similar size in the South East. Waterford is a City.

6. Kilkenny people came across as 'hicks' because of their backward looking obsession with the game of hurling. Their life revolves around it because their county is devoid of anything else.

Aquos76

Excellently put across points there Freddie.

Freddie59

Aquos76 wrote:

Excellently put across points there Freddie.

:cool:

road_high

Waterford is a regional capital no dispute but in terms of population it is not significant, even in an Irish context...Its little more than a large town, as are Kilkenny and Carlow.


U can resort to abusing KK over hurling etc; I don't particularly give a damn!!

The simple fatcs are that Co. Waterford has loads of land within its own boundaries it shud develop on instead of barging into our county and demanding to take over part of it.

The chances of this ridiculous boundary grab actually getting through cabinet are in fact very slim.

Anyway, I 'm sick and tired of this and have made the case for why this boundary change is a totally flawed non-runner and will inevitably fail.

End of story as far as i'm concerned

Freddie59

mfitzy wrote:

Waterford is a regional capital no dispute but in terms of population it is not significant, even in an Irish context...Its little more than a large town, as are Kilkenny and Carlow.

http://www.citypopulation.de/Ireland.html

The population of Kilkenny & Carlow combined is still short of the population of just Waterford City (and that was in 2002!). End of story.:D

Roanmore

Just a quick question on extending boundaries, is there a precedent for it. It would be interesting to see if it happened before and what people's attidues were like before hand and afterwards and what the reasons were for doing it.

AdMMM

mfitzy wrote:

Waterford is a regional capital no dispute but in terms of population it is not significant, even in an Irish context...Its little more than a large town, as are Kilkenny and Carlow.


U can resort to abusing KK over hurling etc; I don't particularly give a damn!!

The simple fatcs are that Co. Waterford has loads of land within its own boundaries it shud develop on instead of barging into our county and demanding to take over part of it.

The chances of this ridiculous boundary grab actually getting through cabinet are in fact very slim.

Anyway, I 'm sick and tired of this and have made the case for why this boundary change is a totally flawed non-runner and will inevitably fail.

End of story as far as i'm concerned

Please, that's not how demographics works. There may be a boundary there but there's a natural tendancy for urban areas to develop outwards (think it's called urban sprawl) before it will develop upwards. We aren't just suddenly deciding to expand into Kilkenny because we want to take over Kilkenny, we're doing it because we need that land to continue developing into the future.

Dac51

mfitzy wrote:

The reason Limerick and Galway have been so successful is down largely to their considerable clout;thats how it works in this country.You have political clout and influence at that cabinet table things get done.

The reason Limerick and Galway have been so successful is down largely to the fact that their regions unify behind their regional capitals and don't bitch and moan because their towns are getting this or that.

That is the reason why the South East region is in such dire straits. Fact.

If we as a region spoke with once voice and accepted Waterford as the regional capital and gateway then you would see improvements in infrastucture etc. Fact.

fricatus

I'm from Waterford, living in Dublin, but making firm plans to move home soon, which has meant that I've been househunting for the past couple of months. I'm broadly in favour of the boundary extension, but there is one big question that I think has not been discussed thoroughly enough.

Does it really make sense to develop Ferrybank? There is only one bridge, and the second one being built will not be ready for about three more years, and even then it will not really be practical to use it for commuting on account of the toll that will be levied.

Every time I looked at a house in Ferrybank, this is what I thought. The houses were very nice, the locations likewise. And the prices were lower than elsewhere in the city. However, the area is just not well connected to the rest of the city and this had an effect on my final decision.

Any further development of Ferrybank will just exacerbate traffic at Rice Bridge. Given that areas south of the river have better connections to the main destination areas of the city (industrial estate, hospital, WIT, city centre), doesn't it make more sense to keep development in these areas?

merlante

fricatus wrote:

I'm from Waterford, living in Dublin, but making firm plans to move home soon, which has meant that I've been househunting for the past couple of months. I'm broadly in favour of the boundary extension, but there is one big question that I think has not been discussed thoroughly enough.

Does it really make sense to develop Ferrybank? There is only one bridge, and the second one being built will not be ready for about three more years, and even then it will not really be practical to use it for commuting on account of the toll that will be levied.

Every time I looked at a house in Ferrybank, this is what I thought. The houses were very nice, the locations likewise. And the prices were lower than elsewhere in the city. However, the area is just not well connected to the rest of the city and this had an effect on my final decision.

Any further development of Ferrybank will just exacerbate traffic at Rice Bridge. Given that areas south of the river have better connections to the main destination areas of the city (industrial estate, hospital, WIT, city centre), doesn't it make more sense to keep development in these areas?

The way I see it, everything to Cork/Dungarvan/Dublin/Estate will go on the bypass. Rice bridge will be like a brdige that serves greater ferrybank only and connects to the city. I think the capacity is there. There are only 7,000 people living in the proposed boundary area & ferrybank, compared to the 45,000 on the south side of the river. I think it could increase to at least double that before there were any problems.

kilkennycat2004

I have lived in Waterford since 1990 but at every stage am 101% involved in the anti land grab campaign as are almost all KIlkenny people I know in Waterford City.
Being from Waterford seems to mean very little to a fair whack of the people I know here. Some on this thread seem to say they don't care or wouldn't care if a chunk of their county was taken over by Tipp or anywhere else. Maybe a bit tongue in cheek in some cases but more than 50% of my Waterford neighbours & work colleagues do actually admit to feeling like that.
On the other hand being from Kilkenny is a huge deal to the bulk of its people in both Kilkenny city & county. Yes its mainly GAA orientated but that's what comes if you live in a county where can book a few days holidays each September in the knowledge that your county might be involved in a small little hurling match at Croke Park!
Kilkenny county council have ignored the South part of the county but as someone living in Waterford city, well, its not exactly Utopia land on the other side of the Bridge either.
The planning that has went into the Ballybegs right through to even the build up of traffic from the Tramore Road to the new city bypass with the subsequent flooding issues hardly shows foresight. Let waterford start dealing with their own issues in a professional manner first before they come along with a policy which is set to divide & conquer.
Hands off Kilkenny !!!!

Freddie59

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

I have lived in Waterford since 1990 but at every stage am 101% involved in the anti land grab campaign as are almost all KIlkenny people I know in Waterford City.
Being from Waterford seems to mean very little to a fair whack of the people I know here. Some on this thread seem to say they don't care or wouldn't care if a chunk of their county was taken over by Tipp or anywhere else. Maybe a bit tongue in cheek in some cases but more than 50% of my Waterford neighbours & work colleagues do actually admit to feeling like that.
On the other hand being from Kilkenny is a huge deal to the bulk of its people in both Kilkenny city & county. Yes its mainly GAA orientated but that's what comes if you live in a county where can book a few days holidays each September in the knowledge that your county might be involved in a small little hurling match at Croke Park!
Kilkenny county council have ignored the South part of the county but as someone living in Waterford city, well, its not exactly Utopia land on the other side of the Bridge either.
The planning that has went into the Ballybegs right through to even the build up of traffic from the Tramore Road to the new city bypass with the subsequent flooding issues hardly shows foresight. Let waterford start dealing with their own issues in a professional manner first before they come along with a policy which is set to divide & conquer.
Hands off Kilkenny !!!!

Mind if I ask a question? If you're so fond of it why don't you live there? Wouldn't be anything to do with the better quality of life, services, infrastructure, etc in Waterford City........would it?

It's interesting to hear you defend a local authority which has neglected the region you claim to love so passionately.....but which you choose not to live in.

And, ultimately, the core of your argument is - yes, you guessed it - ..........................HURLING.

What complete and utter waffle.

road_high

Freddie59 wrote:

Mind if I ask a question? If you're so fond of it why don't you live there? Wouldn't be anything to do with the better quality of life, services, infrastructure, etc in Waterford City........would it?

It's interesting to hear you defend a local authority which has neglected the region you claim to love so passionately.....but which you choose not to live in.

And, ultimately, the core of your argument is - yes, you guessed it - ..........................HURLING.

What complete and utter waffle.

Note well your second point in relation to choice... it is one of my main (of many) arguments against this entire landgrab;Waterford people living in Ferrybank et al. CHOOSE to live there too as did the KK person in Waterford!!

They can't suddenly decide, oh, wait a minute i'd rather live in, be part of Waterford City but live in another county.;Then demand that the border be changed to accomodate their own particular loyalties.

The lack of services is such a convenient argument then for them to use, when in reality they want to live in our county and be part of Waterford at the same time-can't have it both ways i'm afraid...

Freddie59

mfitzy wrote:

Note well your second point in relation to choice... it is one of my main (of many) arguments against this entire landgrab;Waterford people living in Ferrybank et al. CHOOSE to live there too as did the KK person in Waterford!!

They can't suddenly decide, oh, wait a minute i'd rather live in, be part of Waterford City but live in another county.;Then demand that the border be changed to accomodate their own particular loyalties.

The lack of services is such a convenient argument then for them to use, when in reality they want to live in our county and be part of Waterford at the same time-can't have it both ways i'm afraid...

Yes, but the difference is that South Kilkenny is already North Waterford. We're probably outnumbering ye 2 - 1 as it stands.....:D

Bards

This, "My County, Your County" rubbish that I am hearing is very childish and small minded.. FFS we are all Irish. Can we not do what is right for the greater good I.E (Irish/South East Economy)

The sooner the Minister for the Environment (Dick Roche) appoints an unbiased independent boundary commission to examine all boundary extension proposals the better.

road_high

Freddie59 wrote:

Yes, but the difference is that South Kilkenny is already North Waterford. We're probably outnumbering ye 2 - 1 as it stands.....:D

Exactly the invader mentality i've been talking about before with Waterford-how are we ever going to have a properly developed region with this kind of attidude????

We will fight this tooth and nail, you can be assured-no neighbouring county is going to be given an inch -hands off OUR county!!

And if you don't like it you can move back over the river to the wonderful Waterford City, where services etc are clearly so superior and all top notch with no problems or inadequacies whatsoever...

And lets be clear about this debate-we in KK are being honest about county loyalty being one of our main reasons to oppose this. On the other hand we haven't seen Waterford come forward and say, yes, the main reason we back this move is because of our loyalty to Waterford when it is patently obvoius that their loyalty lies with Waterford and want it to gain at our expense.

Bards-again you make good and very valid points as to how we need to cop ourselves on this region, start pulling together on roads, university etc etc.
I have said enough on this issue to date, let the independent boundary commission work something out so we can all move on and discuss how best to progressively develop the S East-already Carlow is giving soudings it would prefer be in the East region-the last thing we need is to fragment what we alrerady have here.

mullanimal

Got this from www.upthedeise.com

I was browsing the Internet and came across Kilkenny County Council’s response to Waterford’s proposed border extension and to be honest I was taken aback by what I read! You can get the executive summary of the response here:

http://www.kilkennycoco.ie/publications/council_publications/default.aspx?id=1774

Their first argument is about the current size of Waterford city and it’s reach into Waterford county stating there is enough land there for development and that there is no need to expand into Kilkenny as a result, however this ignores the fact that a large proportion of Waterford’s city centre population lives North of the river (6000 or so I believe) and do not come under Waterford’s administration area, which means they have different, and sometimes inferior services (e.g. postal service, most people put via Waterford to get their post a day earlier), they cannot vote on city issues and they are not recorded under the census as being part of Waterford city. The only reason this urban population is there is because of the city and from an administration point of view our city is lop sided geographically because it cannot expand in a radial fashion and also from a population point of view also as these people are not included in the statistic. In the last census Waterford had a population of approx 46K, this would have been at least 52K had the boundary been where it is proposed to be. In European terms Waterford is therefore not really a city as I believe the minimum is 50K. Fingers crossed we will have reached this once the 2006 census figures come in. So their first point although technically valid ignores the fact that the city centre has not been allowed to expand naturally and as a result our city and its people from both sides of the bridge have had a city with reduced powers as Waterford is seen as a smaller city than it actually is which means that it may not be able to compete fairly in securing resources against the likes of Galway and Limerick. I would urge Kilkenny people in the area to get behind this extension for this reason alone so that the major city of the region is viewed in a more realistic way from a national and international perspective.

Their second argument centres around co-operation between administrations in the area. If Kilkenny Co. Council were interested in this area, it would be very evident and we would see roads of a quality equal to that of the Waterford City and Co. Waterford (and even Kilkenny Town). In my opinion these are the worst roads I have ever driven on and are totally inappropriate for a national route and it is a stranglehold Kilkenny have on our city and the people of South Kilkenny. I was driving home from Dublin recently and many of the Cat’s eyes (pardon the pun) are either ineffective or have been removed, this adds to the danger of driving on already treacherous roads.

Their third point re-iterates collaboration between the urban. By putting this on paper they suggest Waterford isn’t interested in co-operation, yet we have put in a proposal for University of the South East and the quality of roads exiting Co. Waterford are very good.

Point four is a very serious issue. They say if the boundary extension is successful it will undermine the financial position of Kilkenny Co. Council. They state that they would lose 1.8 Million in commercial rates and that this would result in a net loss to the county of 1.1M. What I read from this is that the area in question is subsidising the rest of Co. Kilkenny to the tune of 1.1M and that the money being made in the area is not being spent on the area it is made in, as it rightly should. It would seem from reading the above that the money is being taken from the urban centre attached to Waterford city and spent elsewhere. People in South Kilkenny should consider that the next time they vote. They also state in this section “in recent years Kilkenny County Council has invested substantial amounts of its own resources in developing the roads, water, waste water and other services in the area”. Does this mean they do not consider this area a part of Kilkenny? Why would they say they are spending their own resources on something that’s not theirs? It seems they think of it only as a source of income rather than something they need to invest in. They would argue also that the port is what we’re after? Well the port would not be there except for Waterford and it was originally in Waterford anyway so it should be part of the city, without doubt.

Their fifth point is that Waterford has no strong vision for the area. I would suggest this is because the area is not a part of Waterford City and thus Waterford cannot afford to spend resources planning on something that is not theirs other than speculatively. They also suggest Kilkenny has demonstrated a strong vision for the area. Well the evidence is over the past 50 years there has been no vision (for example the roundabout at the Limerick junction) and as a result Waterford deserves a shot.

The sixth and final point is the most insulting to the people of the city and surroundings in both South Kilkenny and Waterford. It suggests that granting the border extension would seriously alter the social and cultural structure of Kilkenny. I would ask how? I mean these people already work, socialize and are educated with Waterford people and thus it is a shared Irish culture, a culture based on Waterford City’s 1000 year history and one that both sides of the river should be extremely proud of. We all have relations on both sides of the river so I really cannot understand this argument, to me it is like they do not care for our culture and that is very insulting indeed.

If the main concern of Kilkenny people in the are is a Hurling / GAA issue then I personally think that the GAA should reassure Kilkenny people that the hurlers of the area will not have to play for Waterford if they so choose. I don’t think a single Waterford person would have a problem with Kilkenny people wanting to be a part of Kilkenny GAA, and for the borders not to change from a GAA perspective. This is the very least that should be done for these people and I personally would offer my help and I’m sure other Waterford people would love to help in lobbying for this.

Here is their conclusion and my summary:

1. Is not needed to provide development capacity in the City,
It does in order to develop the city in a natural radial fashion (why have people living 3 or four miles into Waterford city when they can live a mile into Kilkenny and be able to Walk to the city centre)

2. Runs contrary to the current regional, national and international best practice approaches to planning and development which are based on inter-authority co-operation, not boundary changes
There is no evidence of co-operation from Kilkenny, just look at the road to Dublin!

3. Makes no financial sense
To Kilkenny… this part of the county is subsidising the rest of the county. Also it makes sense to Waterford as it would push up our visible population making us more competitive nationally, which is good for the region.

4. Demonstrates absolutely no vision or practical benefits for the people and businesses in the area
This lack of vision has been demonstrated well enough by Kilkenny Co. Council over the last 50 years, Waterford could do no worse and should be given the chance. If you take a look at Waterford city itself you will see there has been vision over the past 20 years.

5. Is based primarily on the City’s financial interests, not on its potential contribution to developing the area in particular, or the South-East region as a whole.
Waterford city is the only chance the South East has for University, motorway etc. etc, maybe Kilkenny should get behind it for once as it is good for the entire region

6. Would alter the community, cultural and sporting identity of the area and the County
How can it alter a joint Urban culture that has been present for hundreds of years?

7. Would not provide for convenient and effective local government.
Waterford City Council should be willing to engage with the other local authorities to a much greater extent in the planning and development of the South-East region as a whole.
People in that part of Kilenny already put via Waterford on their post, but unfortunately have to pay their car tax 30 miles away from the city, surely it is more effective to have an administration 1-3 miles away than 30?

In my opinion I think all of the above are invalid and Kilkenny have presented no real argument as to why the border should not be extended.

road_high

Where do I start with this one...!

Firstly, all your points are from a Waterford perspective only.All KK co co arguments are valid and as for sudsidising the rest of us in the county what rubbish- do you think 1.8 million in rates goes very far these days?

It would hardly resurface a few km of road, let alone provide infrasructure for the whole county.That is very insulting to KK people who pay their taxes and rates as do Waterford.

I would love if KK were situated beside some other county other than Waterford- this issue woudn't arise and we could work progressivel as you point out on roads and university. But how can this happen with so much bad feeling hanging in the air over a landgrab???

I support a prosperous and competitive Waterford City for sure, but please not at our expense. My county and I will reiterate this point, means a lot to me- I am deeply offended that a neighbouring county would see fit to have a right to control a big chunk of it.

On the N9, KK co co are most definitely not to blame- our successive TDs here are for not lobbying and ensuring it was upgraded.It is finally being upgraded to a dual carriageway over next few years.

Waterford people are blindly failing to see this from point of view in KK; we are the ones being asked to give up something.What is in this for us???You'll probably say a stronger regional city, but so what?How is this going to impact positively on the ordinary people who live in KK, not in Waterford??

klash

Freddie59 wrote:

Some facts:

1. South Kilkenny would be a wasteland were it not for Waterford City. It depends on the City for it's very existence in the form of all health, educational, and infrastructural services.

And ? Whats your point ?

2. Waterford is not a 'main town' - it is the Regional capital. Elsewhere in the world a city is allowed to develop in a radial fashion - even in the US where it crosses STATE boundaries.

And ? Just because the US does it doesn't make it the right thing to do nor does it mean we should do it.

3. An extension is invevitable. It will happen (not this time but in the next ten years).

And why does it have to be under the juristiction of Waterford County Council ? Since no Waterford people seem to care about grabbing other peoples land then whats wrong with giving Waterford City to Kilkenny County Council and let them develop it.

4. The primary argument put forward in Leargas was.....hurling. It showed the narrow-mindedness and short-sightedness of your county compatriots.

Some things are important to some people. Hurling is a tradition, a way of life to many people, it defines themselves and their communities. Whether or not you think thats a good reason or not makes no difference whatsoever. It makes a difference to the people affected.

5. There are no other 'towns' of similar size in the South East. Waterford is a City.

So ?

6. Kilkenny people came across as 'hicks' because of their backward looking obsession with the game of hurling. Their life revolves around it because their county is devoid of anything else.

Funny enough comment coming from someone from "Irelands oldest City". How would you like your traditions taken from you ? Hurling is a huge part of peoples lives in Kilkenny AND in Waterford.

kilkennycat2004

Freddie59 wrote:

Mind if I ask a question? If you're so fond of it why don't you live there? Wouldn't be anything to do with the better quality of life, services, infrastructure, etc in Waterford City........would it?
It's interesting to hear you defend a local authority which has neglected the region you claim to love so passionately.....but which you choose not to live in.
And, ultimately, the core of your argument is - yes, you guessed it - ..........................HURLING.
What complete and utter waffle.

Your just showing your ignorance in some of those comments doing yourself or your county no favours whatsoever.
Mention Waterford anywhere & people think of Glass.
Mention Kilkenny anywhere & people think hurling.
If it was vice versa I don't think Kilkenny people would have left a crystal factory in its county die a death in the same way as folk in Waterford city hardly made a squeak when their county neighbours in Dungarvan were having their Crystal plant closed down recently.
As I said in the earlier post Waterford folk just do not have the same sense of identity as in Kilkenny. Probably in the main its down to GAA but that is our culture & one we will defend in the same way as we play it.
Their is nothing to stop the area being developed in the same way as gateshead & Newcastle operate for instance. Landgrabs are for previous generations.

Freddie59

klash wrote:

And ? Whats your point ?

Are you unable to read?

klash wrote:

And ? Just because the US does it doesn't make it the right thing to do nor does it mean we should do it.

It's called experience, which dictates that such developments in the past have proven successful, but again you seem unable to grasp this.

klash wrote:

And why does it have to be under the juristiction of Waterford County Council ? Since no Waterford people seem to care about grabbing other peoples land then whats wrong with giving Waterford City to Kilkenny County Council and let them develop it.

Just like they 'developed' South Kilkenny. A very "attractive" proposition indeed. Never was there such a clear line of demarcation in displaying the achievements of a forward-looking local authority (Waterford City) vs a self-obsessed backward looking one (KIlkenny).

klash wrote:

Some things are important to some people. Hurling is a tradition, a way of life to many people, it defines themselves and their communities. Whether or not you think thats a good reason or not makes no difference whatsoever. It makes a difference to the people affected.

And therein lies the difference between Waterford and Kilkenny. Waterford people are a progressive people, looking to the betterment of Waterford City and it's neighbours, trying to build a strong South Eastern region which can compete with other areas of the country. On the other hand, we have hurling-obsessed people in South Kilkenny doing everything in their power to prevent it.

klash wrote:

Funny enough comment coming from someone from "Irelands oldest City". How would you like your traditions taken from you ? Hurling is a huge part of peoples lives in Kilkenny AND in Waterford.

It may be to you - but there are many, many thousands whose main priorities (believe it or not) are things like family, education, health etc. The things that matter in life. Not hurling. Can you list for me some of the benefits of the game of hurling to your community from a financial perspective?

Your very username demonstrates how obessed and paranoid you are about this sport (and it is JUST a sport - never forget that).
'Stealing hurlers' is the war cry. How sad. The development of a region sacrificed on the sporting altar. Someday you may all wake up with some common sense. But I doubt it very much.

Freddie59

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

Your just showing your ignorance in some of those comments doing yourself or your county no favours whatsoever..

Exactly the comment I would expect.

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

Mention Waterford anywhere & people think of Glass

A huge generator of reveue to people in Waterford City and most of the population of South Kilkenny down through the years.

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

Mention Kilkenny anywhere & people think hurling.

Again the hurling. Pathetic. And the complete opposite of the above in financial terms.

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

If it was vice versa I don't think Kilkenny people would have left a crystal factory in its county die a death in the same way as folk in Waterford city hardly made a squeak when their county neighbours in Dungarvan were having their Crystal plant closed down recently.

And how exactly would this have been achieved, given the level of employment which has been generated in South Kilkenny in the past 50 years. You wouldn't have had to worry about it in the first place. Hold on - sorry - you probably could have had a hurling match to forget all about it.

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

As I said in the earlier post Waterford folk just do not have the same sense of identity as in Kilkenny. Probably in the main its down to GAA but that is our culture & one we will defend in the same way as we play it.

GAA is your culture? Funny - I thought it was a part of our overall culture in this country (albeit an important one), along with our other great traditions, such as literary, musical, etc. But - hey - if there's nothing else of note in your county........

kilkennycat2004 wrote:

Their is nothing to stop the area being developed in the same way as gateshead & Newcastle operate for instance. Landgrabs are for previous generations.

Hmmm. A GAA fan quoting the auld enemy as an example. Well done.

Trotter

Look! Stop the Maaaadness!!

If the boundary extension went through, do you realise that all of the people in the Slieverue, Newrath, Ferrybank and other border areas would all be forced to do their shopping, socialising, and go to work in Waterford!!!


Thats just not....


Oh..

Hang on...

Sorry.. scrap all that... they do all of that in Waterford anyways. Hmm. Extend the boundary and let the people living in these areas have a share of the prosperity of Waterfords expansion. They're financing and driving it. They work and spend their wages in Waterford.

road_high

Freddie59 wrote:

Are you unable to read?





It's called experience, which dictates that such developments in the past have proven successful, but again you seem unable to grasp this.





Just like they 'developed' South Kilkenny. A very "attractive" proposition indeed. Never was there such a clear line of demarcation in displaying the achievements of a forward-looking local authority (Waterford City) vs a self-obsessed backward looking one (KIlkenny).






And therein lies the difference between Waterford and Kilkenny. Waterford people are a progressive people, looking to the betterment of Waterford City and it's neighbours, trying to build a strong South Eastern region which can compete with other areas of the country. On the other hand, we have hurling-obsessed people in South Kilkenny doing everything in their power to prevent it.



It may be to you - but there are many, many thousands whose main priorities (believe it or not) are things like family, education, health etc. The things that matter in life. Not hurling. Can you list for me some of the benefits of the game of hurling to your community from a financial perspective?

Your very username demonstrates how obessed and paranoid you are about this sport (and it is JUST a sport - never forget that).
'Stealing hurlers' is the war cry. How sad. The development of a region sacrificed on the sporting altar. Someday you may all wake up with some common sense. But I doubt it very much.

His point is big deal in in your arrogant assertion that S kk would be a wasteland if it were not for Waterford- what complete and utter rubbish;
-thats the same as saying , and I refer to the following irish examples;

there would be nothing in Wicklow, Kildare, Meath, Laois etc without Dublin
there would be nothing in Clare and North Tipp without Limerick
there would be nothing in south Roscommon without Athlone

All of the above are not suddenly going to move within the urban boundary that influences them so much, so why should south KK.

How flawed to blame the people of Kilkenny for holding development in the south east- I can tell you one thing for sure, if this goes ahead there wouldn't be any future co-operation from the KK side on thing like a university etc- we will simply look to the Midlands region or the East instead.

And are you aware that KK currently is strongly backing the university bid (in Waterord I might add) and we also pay an annual subsidy in support of that white elephant airport down near Tramore??

And as for being a 'backward' looking people, what a disgraceful insult to us.This landgrab is about much more than just hurling which claim, it is about protecting the integrity of our county against the greed and arrogance of Waterford City.

Aquos76

mfitzy wrote:

And are you aware that KK currently is strongly backing the university bid (in Waterord I might add) and we also pay an annual subsidy in support of that white elephant airport down near Tramore??

And as for being a 'backward' looking people, what a disgraceful insult to us.This landgrab is about much more than just hurling which claim, it is about protecting the integrity of our county against the greed and arrogance of Waterford City.

I take it you are not aware of the ever increasing passenger numbers at the South East regional Airport in Waterford.

http://www.waterford-news.ie/news/story.asp?j=21407

You say that its much more than hurling which is been suggested here, but after reading through this entire thread, I fail to see how. The basis of all your points always refer back to Hurling. One of the best post to turn up in this thread has to be trotter one which is so so true.

Look! Stop the Maaaadness!!

If the boundary extension went through, do you realise that all of the people in the Slieverue, Newrath, Ferrybank and other border areas would all be forced to do their shopping, socialising, and go to work in Waterford!!!


Thats just not....


Oh..

Hang on...

Sorry.. scrap all that... they do all of that in Waterford anyways. Hmm. Extend the boundary and let the people living in these areas have a share of the prosperity of Waterfords expansion. They're financing and driving it. They work and spend their wages in Waterford.

road_high

Wow...A whole 70.000 people used the airport, comparable figures for Dublin stand at about 20 million.
I've never met anybody that used that airport in my life- fact.Anyway, thats not the main issue here.

Again, just because people work, shop etc in Waterford doesn't automatically mean it should become part of it.And what about the many Wexford and Tipp folk who work in Waterford; I'm sure they would really love to be told, sorry you're working here lads- you should be part of Waterford too!
Look at all those people from Meath, Kildare et al that work in Dublin- they like us want to keep their identity.

I refer also to Bertie Ahern's thoughts on the landgrab down at the Piltown Show last September- He stated clearly that he is with the people of KK on this one, and that he as a Dub couldn't stand to see part of his county become part of Wicklow or Meath.Fair play to the man, after 10 years in office he's finally speaking some sense!

If you read my arguments, you will find very little reference to hurling; thats far too simplistic an approach for me for opposing this landgrab.

Aquos76

mfitzy wrote:

Wow...A whole 70.000 people used the airport, comparable figures for Dublin stand at about 20 million.
I've never met anybody that used that airport in my life- fact.Anyway, thats not the main issue here.

Dont be so stupid. You cant compare this regional airport to our main Airport which operate flight to destinations all across the world where as the SERA in Waterford only operate to 3 routes if I'm not mistaken. If you are going to compare it to another, make sure you compare it like for like.

The likes of New Ross have some sort of infrastructure in place which enable those inhabitants to stay and do their shopping and socialising there. What have we got in South Kilkenny. Sweet FA. Kilkenny don't give a toss about Ferrybank and its surrounding area. Just face FACTS.

With regards to Bertie, you really cant take any notice as to what he says. Just stop for a minute and think of where he was and who he was with when he made those comments. You van be sure as hell if he was in Waterford City with Waterford city councillors, he would have made the same remarks only this time in favour of Waterfords claims.

klash

Freddie59 wrote:

Are you unable to read?

I'm well able to read, i'm just not able to see any sense in what your trying to write.

It's called experience, which dictates that such developments in the past have proven successful, but again you seem unable to grasp this.

Ok. So shall we invade Iraq too ?

Your talking about a country that would kill 100,000 Iraq's to save a cent on a gallon of petrol.

Just like they 'developed' South Kilkenny. A very "attractive" proposition indeed. Never was there such a clear line of demarcation in displaying the achievements of a forward-looking local authority (Waterford City) vs a self-obsessed backward looking one (KIlkenny).

And again whats your point ?

Since all you care about is the development of the city and all Kilkenny peoples objections are about taking their counties land then why doesn't Waterford city go under the juristiction of Kilkenny County council ? Since you have no problems with losing or gaining land.

And therein lies the difference between Waterford and Kilkenny. Waterford people are a progressive people, looking to the betterment of Waterford City and it's neighbours, trying to build a strong South Eastern region which can compete with other areas of the country. On the other hand, we have hurling-obsessed people in South Kilkenny doing everything in their power to prevent it.

To prevent what ? Your talking about taking a part of their county, a part of their history and tradition. You obviously have no respect for either of the above so you can't understand what it means to people.

It may be to you - but there are many, many thousands whose main priorities (believe it or not) are things like family, education, health etc. The things that matter in life. Not hurling. Can you list for me some of the benefits of the game of hurling to your community from a financial perspective?

1. I'm not from Kilkenny, Waterford or the South-East.
2. The GAA is the single greatest community organisation in the world. It has kept young and old fit and healthy, it has provided entertainment for large numbers of people, it has gave every community in Ireland a sense of being and pride in their place.

This isn't America thank god and we all don't think the only thing important in life is financial gain.

Your very username demonstrates how obessed and paranoid you are about this sport (and it is JUST a sport - never forget that).
'Stealing hurlers' is the war cry. How sad. The development of a region sacrificed on the sporting altar. Someday you may all wake up with some common sense. But I doubt it very much.

And AGAIN i ask you, if its so NOT important to you, why don't you let Kilkenny Co Co take over Waterford City ? It'll develop the region and they'll be no objections from Kilkenny people and since no Waterford people care about their history or tradition then they'll be no objections from them either.

Bards

The simple fact is that it makes more logical sense to administer this area from Waterford City and not from 50 Km away. That is all we are talking about.

You can still belong to Kilkenny Co Co. and play sport with that county. The rates should be ringfenced so that they are spent in this area with subsidies from Waterford City Council, to improve infrastructure and amenities in the area. This area can then be incorporated into the Waterford PLUTS so that it can develop in a balanced way.

The border afterall is an imaginary line drawn on a map (by the British) and should not be set in stone but should be able to mirror reality and be flexible.

Likewise, other areas in the South East are in the same predicament. It makes no sense for carrick-on-suir to have two administrative areas and the same goes for Carlow. When you have a borough or City council area expanding into a neighbouring County it makes logical sense to move the boundary so that the bigger urban area can manage and grow in an organic and organised way.

We have enough red-tape in this country and these things should be streamlined and we should be trying to get rid of duplication in all our government departments.

As it stands people living on the boundary have to approch two local authorities when it comes to planning thus incurring more expense.

I don't know if anyone read the An Bord Pleanala report about Kilkenny's proposed shopping area for Ferrybank but it was scathing in it's conclusion with regard to Kilkenny Co Co planning dept in that it took no notice of it's own PLUTS for the area in question. The Co Co was more concerned how to make as much money in rates as possible to the detriment of Waterford City centre.

This is what Waterford City Council are trying to avoid. Competition for rates is bad for planning, leads to out of town shopping centres, creates donought cities which are empty in the middle, and makes them very car dependent because it does not create critical mass which lends itself easily to public transport. There is an article in this weeks Kilkenny People about how the borough council are concerened that this may happen to them.

In Conclusion. In order to create an area of sufficient critical mass demanding full facilities such as better health care, University. Roads, Rail Airport etc. then the boundary change must go ahead (Dont' tell me that people in kilkenny/South Tipp/South Wexford/South Carlow would rather go to Dublin for these things).

If someone can provide a logical and economic argument how we can fulfill all these things without change I would be most open to hear it. but please leave the GAA out of it.