Indo story about TCD education standards in School of Nursing

Dr Galen

Excerpted from Irish Independant News


THERE were red faces in Trinity College Dublin (TCD) after a gaffe resulted in the handing out of the wrong results - twice.

Second year nursing degree students say great distress has been caused by the errors, which followed their February exams.

In some cases, students who were celebrating a pass on a paper had actually failed and others who were first told they had failed, had passed.

In the first of the two blunders, students were given the results they had received for an assignment last year as the result for their most recent assignment.

That was followed up by posting the incorrect results for the Nursing Studies paper, one of three exams they sat at the end of the first semester.

One student said yesterday that the incorrect results for Nursing Studies were up for two days before it was announced that they were wrong.

In both cases, the students have received amended results, but they say they have suffered great upset.

Some students, who typically achieve very high marks were among those who were led to believe they had failed, based on the first Nursing Studies results.

A TCD spokesperson said it was an unfortunate event, which was regretted. It had been caused by administrative error, arising from the absence, on sick leave, of the member of staff responsible for the results.

The spokesperson said the results involved were "provisional" and not the official college results.

The students are still awaiting the results of their Biology paper, which the spokesperson said would be available on Thursday.

Staff in the nursing school have met students and apologised for the errors.
© Irish Independent

yet one more problem in the school!!! its been a disaster from start to finish. anyone in other courses ever hear of anything like this?

Right_Side

Must be a slow news day.

Dr Galen

not really. was from a few days ago alright but it was a major issue within the school. was talk of protests and people dropping out because of the way all four years are treated.

AFAIK nursing is one of the biggest faculties in the college, and from this Sept with the new courses starting it will be the biggest so obviously anything major happening there will be news

Right_Side

nurse_baz wrote:

was a major issue within the school.

Exactly. National news I don't think so.

people dropping out because of the way all four years are treated.

Sacrifice your education? Doesn't seem very intelligent.

obviously anything major happening there will be news

The Trinity News maybe. Indo must be struggling.

Ag marbh

I know this might be hard to digest but mistakes do happen!!!

Stargal

Yeah I was surprised to see that it made the Indo to be honest, it's not that big a deal. I can understand people in the school getting worried/upset about it, especially since they were only second years, but it's not the worst thing in the world to happen. The School is only a couple of years old so there's bound to be some teething problems with it; this was human error and the School have apologised. Talk of protests and/or dropping out is silly, and hopefully people will realise this once they take a step back.

cuckoo

I can see why the Indo picked this up - nurses are newsworthy at the moment with the INO doing their people on trolleys in A and E count and the health service in general. Plus, nurses have a good will factor that doctors don't - it wouldn't be as 'good' news if it were med students that had their results messed up like that.

I've never heard of a mix up like that with wrong results being posted, the occasional mistake being made with the adding up of marks for individual students, sure, but a mix up on that scale...?

Dr Galen

The School is only a couple of years old so there's bound to be some teething problems with it; this was human error and the School have apologised. Talk of protests and/or dropping out is silly, and hopefully people will realise this once they take a step back.

the school of nursing is AFAIK 12 years old. As for the problems this and all the other problems that the student nurses have had, well it may seem like much of a problem to others but to the students within the school its a big issue.

mistakes do happen. and I'd be the first to cut them a bit of slack in this sense, but when mistakes hapen on a weekly basis then thats a larger issue.

Dr Galen

it wouldn't be as 'good' news if it were med students that had their results messed up like that.

i'd completley agree with you on that one. Not sure why though? Maybe the med students aren't vocal enough about things, but if problems existed I'd be the first to give support to them. you do hear awful stories about what goes on and how they are treated

Nietzschean

nurse_baz wrote:

the school of nursing is AFAIK 12 years old.

in terms of departments in tcd thats barely out of the womb Alot of my courses have been identical for longer than that, and taught by the same lecturer for the period...hrmm..

Dr Galen

true enough. wouldn't argue there, but 12 years is enough time to get your affiars in order wouldn't you think?

Nietzschean

in anything other than academia i'd agree, but in my experence of it, its a strange slow moving place...........

Right_Side

Sounds like the Trinity nurses are dead certs to be future INO leaders. :rolleyes:

vocal, problems, support, treated, big issues, protest, dropping out etc.

Thats right!... upon graduation these nurses along with the rest of the public health system will be ready to asborb government spending on health leading to the crisis we currently have.

Fact:
1. 56% of the increase in current health spending (7% increase) goes directly on wages. (Department of Finance)

2. Public pay exceeds private pay by 13%. (ERSI)

Public unions. It's for you to decide...

The cause of the health crisis?
The cause of rip off Ireland?


Sounds like Trinity is breeding them out wherever the nurses are! Unfortunate!

Dr Galen

can't argue with figures can i?? prob not a lot of point either

it would only end up turning into a good ole boards style row

Sounds like the Trinity nurses are dead certs to be future INO leaders.

thx for the compliment if it was being thrown my way lol

Dr Galen

Nietzschean wrote:

in anything other than academia i'd agree, but in my experence of it, its a strange slow moving place...........

couldn't agree more with you though, and TCD seems to be especially slow moving

Right_Side

nurse_baz wrote:

thx for the compliment if it was being thrown my way lol

Note - not a complement :rolleyes:

Do you think anyone actually cares that you have to pay c.€100 for your injections?

Everyone who goes to college has there own individual expenses depending on the course. Do you hear the science people complaining/going on strike :rolleyes: because they have to pay for a labcoat?

You knew about the fee before you came, or should have known if you bothered to research, then why complain?

cuckoo

Right_Side wrote:

Note - not a complement :rolleyes:

Do you think anyone actually cares that you have to pay c.€100 for your injections?

Everyone who goes to college has there own individual expenses depending on the course. Do you hear the science people complaining/going on strike :rolleyes: because they have to pay for a labcoat?

You knew about the fee before you came, or should have known if you bothered to research, then why complain?

I thought the issue with the vacines was that the hospital had been given the money by the dept of health, and were still charging the nursing students? Do nursing students wear uniforms when on placement, and do they have to buy them? (and, if they're provided, it's the hospital that provides, not the college - or is it trinity?)

The labcoats is a good point, maybe science people should be given them, and goggles. I think the science faculty don't because it'd simply be hassle for them, leaving aside the expense, they'd have to organise the sizes, etc. I didn't mind paying for the lab coat, it was a once off small expense. At least we don't have to pay for the chemicals, equipment and electricity in the labs. But, if the science faculty had a budget for providing the coats and didn't, then i'd be annoyed.

Dr Galen

Do you think anyone actually cares that you have to pay c.€100 for your injections?

we never asked people to care we asked fr the situation to be changed. We are expected to work as members of the nursing team, in an upaid fasshon for 3 years, but the hospitals refused to acknowledge this. the issue isn't so much te fee itself. its the lack of recognition and responsibility from the HSE/ hospitals. The hospitals are funded for this injection by the DOH...so why the need for a feee in the first place?

Everyone who goes to college has there own individual expenses depending on the course. Do you hear the science people complaining/going on strike :rolleyes: because they have to pay for a labcoat?

What concerns them, isn't necessarily applicable. Your trying to equate the outlay of a lab coat..with the student nurses working within the Health service and not getting their due rights and entitlements.

Tho if the science students feel its unjust then why put up with it?

You knew about the fee before you came, or should have known if you bothered to research, then why complain?

this fee was not made lear to anyone. indeed many things about the nursing course change from week to week, month to month. And regardless, if something is unfair, you should seek to have it changed, not just put up with it.

wheresthebeef

in other related news, the school of nursing was recently subject to a break-in on wednesday night. its believed that the vandals gained access from the roof somehow. there was nothing for them to steal so they just trashed the place.

Nursing students situation is unique in that they have 144 weeks of clinical placement in hospital setting where they are expected to work for the health service as part of their education. As such they are owed a certain responsibility from the health service and from the Dept. of Health. So to anyone who has a problem with nursing students being given a bit of due respect and fair play from college and the HSE, why don't you grow up and realise that some of us are doing something worthwhile and productive to society and all we want is a bit of common decency shown. And to the person who brought up the issue of overspending in the health system on wages, nurses are actually one of the worst paid professions in the system. And in relation to the public/private issue, that doesnt apply in healthcare. Public workers earn less than private workers in the Health System.

cuckoo

wheresthebeef wrote:

# So to anyone who has a problem with nursing students being given a bit of due respect and fair play from college and the HSE, why don't you grow up and realise that some of us are doing something worthwhile and productive to society and all we want is a bit of common decency shown.

I agree that nursing students aren't being treated fairly with the charge for the vacines, and the mix up with the exam results sucked and all, but do you think that people studying other courses in Trinity are not doing something worthwhile and productive to society?

DrIndy

The school of nursing is NOT 12 years old, but closer to 3 years in its current form as it was created after the first years of the 4 year degree program started. Previously, the diploma courses were administered and examined by the hospital and TCD rubberstamped the degree.

Since the further consolidation and expansion of the school as the years progress and expand, there are occasional hiccups. I know the staff of the nursing school very, very well and can assure you that there is no other school in the university which holds their students closer to their heart and go out of their way to assist them. For instance, the Nursing school gave the money which created the St. James's student centre and also lumped in €500,000 to the sports and student centre on the main campus.

wheresthebeef

well they'd want to start spending at home for the benefit of their own students. seen as how they told us the other day that they dont have the money to fix the swipe locks, or to provide more space for seating for students.

It doesn't matter how old the school is, students are entitled to a minimum standard of quality, its not like these people are working for free or are being underpaid. I know some of the staff of the school hold the students close to their hearts, especially the director of the school, Cecily Begley. But a lot of the people on the ground i.e course co-ordinators, executive officers, and some of the lecturers couldn't give a sh*te. And thats a fact, take it first hand from someone who is a student in the school.

Dr Galen

The school of nursing is NOT 12 years old, but closer to 3 years in its current form as it was created after the first years of the 4 year degree program started. Previously, the diploma courses were administered and examined by the hospital and TCD rubberstamped the degree.

i don't disagree with this mate. But the one point i'd make is that it didn't sneak up on them, they knew the changes were afoot and from a student perspective the excuse of we're only learning doesn't wash. harsh i know but true. i do sympathise tho with the staff to a degree...i'mm come back to this in a min

there are occasional hiccups. I know the staff of the nursing school very, very well and can assure you that there is no other school in the university which holds their students closer to their heart and go out of their way to assist them.

again some of the staff in the school are brilliant. several names come to mind who i have to give major credit and respect to. I don't think many people hold individuals repsonsible for whats been happening, and if they do IMHO they are wrong.

The issues within the school are mostly related to poor communication with the students and not treating them as adults. This is a generalisation tho and I'll admit this. SOme of the staff are excellent. But for people not in the school and not experiencing the issues on a daily basis, well they are not really qualified to make too many assumptions. Tho in the case of the good Doctor, you do come from a position of some knowledge.

At least the nursing students are vocal and sem to care about whats going on, wouldn't it be worse if they suffered from the general malaise and apathy that seems to plague the wider youth population.

but do you think that people studying other courses in Trinity are not doing something worthwhile and productive to society?

in my case defo not. All students are equal Now lets not make this into a discussion based on one upmanship

Dr Galen

wheresthebeef wrote:

well they'd want to start spending at home for the benefit of their own students. seen as how they told us the other day that they dont have the money to fix the swipe locks, or to provide more space for seating for students.

It doesn't matter how old the school is, students are entitled to a minimum standard of quality, its not like these people are working for free or are being underpaid. I know some of the staff of the school hold the students close to their hearts, especially the director of the school, Cecily Begley. But a lot of the people on the ground i.e course co-ordinators, executive officers, and some of the lecturers couldn't give a sh*te. And thats a fact, take it first hand from someone who is a student in the school.

GO on beefy! You tell em lol

Boston

wheresthebeef wrote:

Nursing students situation is unique in that they have 144 weeks of clinical placement in hospital setting where they are expected to work for the health service as part of their education. As such they are owed a certain responsibility from the health service and from the Dept. of Health. So to anyone who has a problem with nursing students being given a bit of due respect and fair play from college and the HSE, why don't you grow up and realise that some of us are doing something worthwhile and productive to society and all we want is a bit of common decency shown.

One of the current third year Elec Eng project is a heart Rate monitor. If it wasn't for us, you boyo's would be back in the dark ages chanting at the moon and sacrificing goats.

nurse_baz, I'd take Dr Indy's word of this

Dr Galen

ha ha very true
as for Dr Indy knowing the score, I'm sure he has some idea but we know what happens day to day as we actullay are nursing students. I don't many people know better whats happening than us:D

europerson

Right_Side wrote:

Sounds like the Trinity nurses are dead certs to be future INO leaders. :rolleyes:

I have to agree, I'm afraid.

upon graduation these nurses along with the rest of the public health system will be ready to asborb government spending on health leading to the crisis we currently have.

Fact:
1. 56% of the increase in current health spending (7% increase) goes directly on wages. (Department of Finance)

2. Public pay exceeds private pay by 13%. (ERSI)

Here's a few more statistics:
Ireland has 16.5 nurses per 10,000 people. the OECD average is 10 per 10,000. With the level of wage inflation in the health sector, this results in great increases in expenditure in Ireland. Healthcare is one of the non-progressive sectors of the economy, identified by William Baumol. As a result, when wages increase in the progressive (usually private) sectors (due to increased levels of productivity), these wage increases are demanded in the non-progressive sector too. Education and healthcare are the two major non-progressive sectors.

We do not need more nurses: we just need the ones we have to work more efficiently! The vast problem of institutionalised overtime is remarkable. There is no focus on productivity in the health service and there is no accountability, as we are happy to allow the INO to wrap the government around its finger. The government erects barriers, which protect the workers in the health service far too much. For example, admission to medical schools is capped at 1978 levels. That is why the CAO points level for Medicine, Dentistry, etc. is so high. There is room in universities to cater for more people, but, seeing as they only have to admit so many EU students, they sell off the excess places to non-EU students, who, in many cases, have only a fraction of the academic record of their EU counterparts. If this ridiculous cap on numbers were removed, the points requirement would become lower and we would have more doctors, more competition and lower prices.

As a result, in Ireland, we have a protected system of 2.3 doctors per 10,000 people, compared with the OECD average of 3 doctors per 10,000 people. Using an index system gives the following:

Basic Hospital Doctor's Pay = 100

Average Registrar's Pay = 202

This shows the effect of overtime, which is caused by not having enough doctors in the first place.

Over the period 1997-2002, there was 125% increase in spending on the Irish health system. The 1997 staffing level was c.68,000. In 2002 it was 98,000. Of these 30,000 additions, 1,309 were doctors and dentists. All of this reulted in a 4% increase in admissions. In no other sector could this level of financial mismanagement and waste of resources be tolerated.

Four out of every five people in Accident and Emergency have no need to be there. Only one in five are admitted to hospital. Instead of clogging up our MRSA-threatened hospitals, this 80% of people should be treated by GP's, but all they do is write letters: letters to employers for people who aren't really sick, letters to pharmacists (another protected economic system) called prescriptions, and letters to other doctors (referrals). When one sees a "surgery" sign outside a GP's office, one has to wonder about how much real medical work is going on in there. This also leads to a massiive system of paperwork, requiring more and more "administrators" and yet more costs. From 1997 to 2001, there was a 74% increase in the number of administrators.

Public unions. It's for you to decide...

The cause of the health crisis?

See above.

The cause of rip off Ireland?

Irish per capita health expenditure is 35% above the EU average, taking 2003 figures.

Sounds like Trinity is breeding them out wherever the nurses are! Unfortunate!

For shame.

This is only the tip of the iceberg...

Dr Galen

I have to agree, I'm afraid.

not picking on u here mate but what is peoples problem with the unions out there? Just asking out of interest? prob another topic for another section

We do not need more nurses: we just need the ones we have to work more efficiently! The vast problem of institutionalised overtime is remarkable. There is no focus on productivity in the health service and there is no accountability,

couldn't agree more with this. efficiency is a major problem. Why are our hospitals run as a 5 day operation. effectively they shut down on the weekend. patients don't stop getting sick do they?

as we are happy to allow the INO to wrap the government around its finger.

i wasn't aware this was happening tbh. if it is how come we are the lowest paid workers in the sector. I have friends who are health care assistants earning 1.5 times what nurses earn for the first 3-4 years out of college and they have no degree/diploma?

For example, admission to medical schools is capped at 1978 levels. That is why the CAO points level for Medicine, Dentistry, etc. is so high. There is room in universities to cater for more people, If this ridiculous cap on numbers were removed, the points requirement would become lower and we would have more doctors, more competition and lower prices.

again a good point? is it a case of protectionism??? only issue is that although the colleges could cope with the extra numbers the places for trainng within the hospitals don't exist. problem that currently exists in nursing, the personnel to train the nurses simply ain't there

Basic Hospital Doctor's Pay = 100

Average Registrar's Pay = 202

In no other sector could this level of financial mismanagement and waste of resources be tolerated.

we the electorate allow this to happen, its hardly the healthcare professionals fault. anyone who works in the hospitals will tell you though that there seem to more and more managers and admins every day? is this where the money goes

Four out of every five people in Accident and Emergency have no need to be there. Only one in five are admitted to hospital. Instead of clogging up our MRSA-threatened hospitals, this 80% of people should be treated by GP's,

you should try working in James/Tallaght A&E sometime and you'll see how right you are. Major education of patients needs to take place. and GPs need to take responsibility for people on their books as u rightly point out

This is only the tip of the iceberg...

not quite sure what u mean here, care to share

all in all you've made decent points, glad to see people are knowledgable. beginning to think this one innocent enuff post has struck a nerve. tho its probably not best suited to the TCD forum:D

Right_Side

wheresthebeef wrote:

Nursing students situation is unique in that they have 144 weeks of clinical placement in hospital setting where they are expected to work for the health service as part of their education. As such they are owed a certain responsibility from the health service and from the Dept. of Health.

When did anyone say they weren't owed a "certain responsibility"? Although I'm sure your definition of a "certain responsibility" and mine will differ.

So to anyone who has a problem with nursing students being given a bit of due respect and fair play from college and the HSE, why don't you grow up and realise that some of us are doing something worthwhile and productive to society

So no one else is doing "something worthwhile and productive to society"? I takes a lot more than nurses to run such a society.

all we want is a bit of common decency shown.

So hard done by, are you? :rolleyes:

And to the person who brought up the issue of overspending in the health system on wages, nurses are actually one of the worst paid professions in the system.

Would you care to post your source of such information or just blindly throw it out there and hope everyone swollows it?

Even if this is true, a doctor (for example) will be obviously be entitled to a higher wage due to their increased bargaining power.

And in relation to the public/private issue, that doesnt apply in healthcare. Public workers earn less than private workers in the Health System.

Source?

wheresthebeef wrote:

well they'd want to start spending at home for the benefit of their own students. seen as how they told us the other day that they dont have the money to fix the swipe locks, or to provide more space for seating for students.

Live with it. Do you think you have some right to extra seating space. I'm sure everyone in the Arts block, Hamiliton etc. would love some extra seating too.

Swipe locks! Any random person can walk in off the street to most other buildings in college.

It doesn't matter how old the school is, students are entitled to a minimum standard of quality, its not like these people are working for free or are being underpaid. I know some of the staff of the school hold the students close to their hearts, especially the director of the school, Cecily Begley. But a lot of the people on the ground i.e course co-ordinators, executive officers, and some of the lecturers couldn't give a sh*te. And thats a fact, take it first hand from someone who is a student in the school.

Welcome to the real world. You are going to get people who don't care. I would guess every single person on this board has experience lecturers and other staff not caring, you just get on with it.

Right_Side

nurse_baz wrote:

The issues within the school are mostly related to poor communication with the students and not treating them as adults.

What do you expect? Every-time you hear something you don't like you (as in the nurses) throw the bottle out of the pram! Protests, strikes, threatening to drop out etc. Doesn't sound very adult to me.

But for people not in the school and not experiencing the issues on a daily basis, well they are not really qualified to make too many assumptions.

You knew or should have known before you went in to nursing that it is a tough job and it requires a very unique type of individual to deal with stresses. Therefore these issues were there before you and will be there after, it’s the nature of the job. Maybe you’re not cut out for it?

At least the nursing students are vocal and sem to care about whats going on, wouldn't it be worse if they suffered from the general malaise and apathy that seems to plague the wider youth population.

Nurses seem to be exactly like the wider youth population. Moaners. Everyone has a moan now and then but it seems to be endemic in that school.

nurse_baz wrote:

not picking on u here mate but what is peoples problem with the unions out there? Just asking out of interest? prob another topic for another section

Unions cause:

1. High Wages - Wages are held too high, above the efficient market rate. Companies can afford to employ fewer workers, leading to unemployment. Unfortunately, the wages get so high that companies close down and move their mobile capital to a lower wage country. E.g. Germany et al.

2. Increase hiring and firing rules - By making it more difficult to fire workers, unions increase unemployment. Instead of hiring ten new workers if required, the company increases the hour’s worker by current workers.

Typically, it is the young and unskilled effected here and the goal of the French law of recent discussion was to try and reduce unemployment of the young and unskilled by making it easier to hire and fire them.

3. Inefficiencies - e.g. `'the effective shutting down of hospitals on the weekend', An Post not delivering on a Sunday etc.

Since we can't exactly close down the public sector, as the market would dictate, these problems are exasperated .

Why are our hospitals run as a 5 day operation. effectively they shut down on the weekend. patients don't stop getting sick do they?

Because of the unions.

how come we are the lowest paid workers in the sector. I have friends who are health care assistants earning 1.5 times what nurses earn for the first 3-4 years out of college and they have no degree/diploma?

Source? Note - "friends" are not an acceptable source.

As europerson correctly pointed out Ireland has a glut of nurses thus the market forces down your wages. Demand and supply. All the nurses currently in training were aware (or should have researched) of this issue before they started training.

problem that currently exists in nursing, the personnel to train the nurses simply ain't there

We have too many nurses as it is! See europersons post! Therefore, why would need more personnel to train even more nurses?

Major education of patients needs to take place. and GPs need to take responsibility for people on their books as u rightly point out

A lot of hospital referrals are defensive by doctors. I.e. they are covering their backs. Otherwise they will be sued for negligence.

xeduCat

Right_Side wrote:

Even if this is true, a doctor (for example) will be obviously be entitled to a higher wage due to their increased bargaining power.

Why is that obvious? Isn't it just your point of view? I didn't know entitlement was a matter of hard economic fact. Don't they teach you the concept of fuzzy definitions these days?

Right_Side

xeduCat wrote:

Why is that obvious? Isn't it just your point of view? I didn't know entitlement was a matter of hard economic fact. Don't they teach you the concept of fuzzy definitions these days?

Few doctors, many nurses. Therefore, doctors get paid more than nurses. Simple really.

I never said it was a hard economic fact. It is, however, economic reality.

wheresthebeef

where are you getting this idea that we have too many nurses. the hospital i work in is understaffed everyday. there are not enough nurses to perform all the tasks that need doing, especially if someone is out sick. it was my understanding that there is a worldwide shortage of doctors and nurses, and that ireland was no exception to this. if we have too many nurses, why is the DoHC pushing through new direct entry paediatric nursing courses and midwifery courses to increase the number of nurses in those area's. Why have they increased the places for general nursing, year on year.
when you say we have too many nurses, do you mean nurses on the live register with An Bord Altranais because not all nurses work as nurses, or work at all.

Boston

Right_Side wrote:

Few doctors, many nurses. Therefore, doctors get paid more than nurses. Simple really.

I never said it was a hard economic fact. It is, however, economic reality.

Learn some supply and demand economics.

Right_Side

LiouVille wrote:

Learn some supply and demand economics.

Are you referring to me? I can assure you I know some.

Right_Side

wheresthebeef wrote:

where are you getting this idea that we have too many nurses. the hospital i work in is understaffed everyday. there are not enough nurses to perform all the tasks that need doing, especially if someone is out sick. it was my understanding that there is a worldwide shortage of doctors and nurses, and that ireland was no exception to this. if we have too many nurses, why is the DoHC pushing through new direct entry paediatric nursing courses and midwifery courses to increase the number of nurses in those area's. Why have they increased the places for general nursing, year on year.
when you say we have too many nurses, do you mean nurses on the live register with An Bord Altranais because not all nurses work as nurses, or work at all.

Go and read europerson's post. :rolleyes:

Dr Galen

What do you expect? Every-time you hear something you don't like you (as in the nurses) throw the bottle out of the pram! Protests, strikes, threatening to drop out etc. Doesn't sound very adult to me.

isn't this turning into a right old tussle of ideas huh......well i'm sorry, but your idea that everyone should just put up with thier lot and get on with it is not something i agree with. sounds slightly victorian to me. everyone should know their place and be happy. well that may be the way you work, but as long as I have breath I'll stick up for what i believe is due.

You knew or should have known before you went in to nursing that it is a tough job and it requires a very unique type of individual to deal with stresses. Therefore these issues were there before you and will be there after, it’s the nature of the job.

its because i care about my profession and making it better that I take an interest, and its not the nature of any job to be underpaid and over worked. just because "its hw its always been" doesn't make it right. I wonder how many people said that to Martin Luther King or Gandhi. Obviously a big jump i know but same principle applies.

Maybe you’re not cut out for it?

and you'd know??

Unions cause.........

1. High Wages

so a nurse working 39 hrs in a highly stressful and sometimes dangerous environment and getting paid less than an unqualified childcare worker is acceptable? the fact that physiotherapists/Occupational therapists/ dieticians etc get paid more money and work less hours is ok? well its your opinion then

Typically, it is the young and unskilled effected here and the goal of the French law of recent discussion was to try and reduce unemployment of the young and unskilled by making it easier to hire and fire them.

why where hundreds of thousaands out protesting against this then if it was such a good thing for them?

Source? Note - "friends" are not an acceptable source.

i wasn't aware I needed to use the Harvard system here on boards...i'll try harder next time

As europerson correctly pointed out Ireland has a glut of nurses thus the market forces down your wages. D

hard to compare really, the Live register does not mean that all those nurses are working as a nurse. Once a nurse your always a nurse (unless you get struck off for being bold) not every other country has this, plus we count all our nurses be they pysch or ID or general under one umbrella, other euro countries don't have such distinctions.

your previous point about efficiency though still stands and I'd agree that its a major issue within the service that needs sorting

Therefore, why would need more personnel to train even more nurses?

we don;t have the personnel to train the ones we have. when i say personnel i mean that they have undergone the training themselves to be able to effectively mentor and train the students.

A lot of hospital referrals are defensive by doctors. I.e. they are covering their backs. Otherwise they will be sued for negligence

unfort true..but what can we do, it seems that is the society we live in these days. would u agree??

xeduCat

Right_Side wrote:

Few doctors, many nurses. Therefore, doctors get paid more than nurses. Simple really.

I never said it was a hard economic fact. It is, however, economic reality.

Not quite. It's dependent on the existence of a particular paradigm. Your view is fine, but it's a little misleading to presume that only your standpoint is the logical one. There are alternative approaches, which you would most probably disagree with, which would argue that the reward for a nursing career should be related to the need of the nurse rather than the number of doctors. This might be out of step with your worldview, but why not at least acknowledge it and argue against it, rather than stating things as 'reality'? Economics is a tool through which we can understand the world, but the last century has shown that it is far from a value-neutral positivist science.

Dr Galen

which would argue that the reward for a nursing career should be related to the need of the nurse rather than the number of doctors.

my point exactly....why should nurses base their claims etc on others and as for the perception that the INO has a grand plan ifeel this is unfair. After all the basis of the organisation is that its mandated by its members. Policy etc is set by the members and then carried through by the union. Again, some may not agree but unless they are involved in a union themselves and i don't see how they can state definitively that this is not the case?

Right_Side

nurse_baz wrote:

isn't this turning into a right old tussle of ideas huh......well i'm sorry, but your idea that everyone should just put up with thier lot and get on with it is not something i agree with. sounds slightly victorian to me. everyone should know their place and be happy. well that may be the way you work, but as long as I have breath I'll stick up for what i believe is due.

No I don't believe you should just put up with your lot.

The market will correct the situation. If Company X treated their staff really badly, paid poorly etc. the market would dictate that only poor quality labour would work for them. To attract higher quality labour the company would have to treat staff better, pay them more.

If you don't like your conditions, leave. Then the employers will be forced to increase their standards and/or pay to attract quality labour back.

its because i care about my profession and making it better that I take an interest, and its not the nature of any job to be underpaid and over worked. just because "its hw its always been" doesn't make it right.

Correct it's not the nature of any job to be underpaid and over worked.

Then by definition, no job is underpaid and the staff aren't overworked. The market is dictating their pay and conditions. E.g. many people are qualified to work in shops therefore wages are low.

I wonder how many people said that to Martin Luther King or Gandhi. Obviously a big jump i know but same principle applies.

Your trying to make this argument emotive by make reference to MLK etc.

so a nurse working 39 hrs in a highly stressful and sometimes dangerous environment and getting paid less than an unqualified childcare worker is acceptable? the fact that physiotherapists/Occupational therapists/ dieticians etc get paid more money and work less hours is ok? well its your opinion then

It's not my opinion. It's market forces at work.

Why didn't you become a physio, childcare worker etc. if you want higher wages?

why where hundreds of thousaands out protesting against this then if it was such a good thing for them?

They can't see the bigger picture. Few can. E.g. everyone moans about and seeks to minimise their own tax liability. But without taxes we wouldn't have a public sector. If we saw a 1% increase in taxes in the budget there would be an outcry even if it is needed to take the heat out the economy.

The protestors only see the effect on themselves in the short-run and not the positives for the economy in the long-run.

i wasn't aware I needed to use the Harvard system here on boards...i'll try harder next time

Just a simply reference to legitimise what you are saying e.g. ERSI, CSO etc.

hard to compare really, the Live register does not mean that all those nurses are working as a nurse. Once a nurse your always a nurse (unless you get struck off for being bold) not every other country has this, plus we count all our nurses be they pysch or ID or general under one umbrella, other euro countries don't have such distinctions.

I accept this point but without further evidence we can only work off the facts in hand.

unfort true..but what can we do, it seems that is the society we live in these days. would u agree??

Yes, but if I was misdiagnosed and had a serious illness I would have to consider suing. You only get one life.

Right_Side

xeduCat wrote:

Not quite. It's dependent on the existence of a particular paradigm. Your view is fine, but it's a little misleading to presume that only your standpoint is the logical one. There are alternative approaches, which you would most probably disagree with, which would argue that the reward for a nursing career should be related to the need of the nurse rather than the number of doctors.

I acknowledge your view. However flawed it may be. So who decides what job is "needed" the most? The market is the only fair/legitimate way of determining wages.

Economics is a tool through which we can understand the world, but the last century has shown that it is far from a value-neutral positivist science.

Never said it was perfect.

Dr Galen

The market will correct the situation. If Company X treated their staff really badly, paid poorly etc. the market would dictate that only poor quality labour would work for them. To attract higher quality labour the company would have to treat staff better, pay them more.

see this is where we diverge. Your faith is in the power of the market, which i will fully admit my knowledge of economics is lacking (eventhough i alledgedly studied it in college years ago )mine faith is in the power of workers and people to change their lot. I don;t really feel like waiting for Adam Smith t come in on a white charger to solve my probs thanks very much.

Though in saying this, i could be convinced that a meeting of the two ideas would work

If you don't like your conditions, leave. Then the employers will be forced to increase their standards and/or pay to attract quality labour back.

kinda hard to do when wages and conditions are standardised across the health service

Why didn't you become a physio, childcare worker etc. if you want higher wages?

because i want ot be none of these. I want to be a nurse and thoroughly enjoy my job, but that does not mean that I should be happy with the status quo. I want better conditions for a job that i want to do. is that a bad thing?

The protestors only see the effect on themselves in the short-run and not the positives for the economy in the long-run.

isn't this human nature?

xeduCat

Right_Side wrote:

The market is the only fair/legitimate way of determining wages.

Now is that your ideology speaking or have you a mathematical formula for us on what is fair?

Right_Side

nurse_baz wrote:

see this is where we diverge. Your faith is in the power of the market, which i will fully admit my knowledge of economics is lacking (eventhough i alledgedly studied it in college years ago )mine faith is in the power of workers and people to change their lot. I don;t really feel like waiting for Adam Smith t come in on a white charger to solve my probs thanks very much.

So instead you (nurses) try to hold the country ransom by going on strike to get your way?

kinda hard to do when wages and conditions are standardised across the health service

How is it hard to leave? If you and other's leave the standardised wages will increase. (read what I said again!)

because i want ot be none of these. I want to be a nurse and thoroughly enjoy my job, but that does not mean that I should be happy with the status quo. I want better conditions for a job that i want to do. is that a bad thing?

You chose to be a nurse, the wages and conditions will improve if the supply of nurses decreases. You knew this before you made your decision.

If I decided to become a banker, I could be fired within 15 mins so not as to take any secrets with me. I might not like that but I knew it before I took up the job.

isn't this human nature?

Yes, that's my point.

Right_Side

xeduCat wrote:

Now is that your ideology speaking or have you a mathematical formula for us on what is fair?

You didn't answer my question.

Who decides what job is "needed" the most?

Dr Galen

not really sure what else to say anymore.....this seems to be a clash of two hugely differnet ideas and positions and really I'm not sure that this thread is the best place for it. seeing as there seems to be only 3/4 people writing on it how about we agree to disagree etc and move on?

Dr Galen

its four years now to qualify and it would take ages to go through everything but to give u a brief over view check out this link. http://www.nursingcareers.ie/Becoming_a_Nurse.HTML its not hugely great but it'll give u an idea of why etc

thinking of a career change huh???? lol

Dr Galen

So instead you (nurses) try to hold the country ransom by going on strike to get your way?

so public protest is a bad thing in your opinion? (genuine question). If other routes fail why shouldn't we exercise our right to peaceful demonstration?

How is it hard to leave? If you and other's leave the standardised wages will increase. (read what I said again!)

and what will i do while i wait for years for the market to equalise? nurses have always had crappy wages (i'll find u a source ) even when the numbers where much fewer, where was the market then?

You chose to be a nurse, the wages and conditions will improve if the supply of nurses decreases. You knew this before you made your decision.

If I decided to become a banker, I could be fired within 15 mins so not as to take any secrets with me. I might not like that but I knew it before I took up the job.

again i go back to the mantra...just cos it is it don't make it right. people should be paid for their worth, not what the "market" dictates. the market should be fluid enough and pliable enough to mould itself to the needs of the people. NOt the other way around (IMHO)

Right_Side

nurse_baz wrote:

not really sure what else to say anymore.....this seems to be a clash of two hugely differnet ideas and positions and really I'm not sure that this thread is the best place for it. seeing as there seems to be only 3/4 people writing on it how about we agree to disagree etc and move on?

Fair enough, but once you know that not everyone wants to hear about the nurses strikes, gripes, protests etc. We all have problems and it's a pity union beliefs are been fostered so much.

Question: Does the INO have any active involvement with the nurses? Do you subscribe to the union?

Good debate.

Right_Side

nurse_baz wrote:

so public protest is a bad thing in your opinion? (genuine question). If other routes fail why shouldn't we exercise our right to peaceful demonstration?

Public protest is great, when justified.

Going back to the start, a few mistakes in a few exams and you are threatening protests, drops outs etc. :rolleyes: . That is ridiculous and juvenile.

and what will i do while i wait for years for the market to equalise? nurses have always had crappy wages (i'll find u a source ) even when the numbers where much fewer, where was the market then?

It was there. Fewer nurses in a smaller population.

again i go back to the mantra...just cos it is it don't make it right. people should be paid for their worth, not what the "market" dictates. the market should be fluid enough and pliable enough to mould itself to the needs of the people. NOt the other way around (IMHO)

The market pays people for what their worth.

Question: How much do you think you deserve?

Dr Galen

Fair enough, but once you know that not everyone wants to hear about the nurses strikes, gripes, protests etc.

ah sure i know right well not everyone wants to hear about us all the time, but some do, and as long as boards.ie is public etc i'll continue to tell people about stuff.

We all have problems and it's a pity union beliefs are been fostered so much.

i don't think union beliefs have been overfostered but sometimes they don;t do themselves good. esp in the past. things have changed tho and i think the idea of partnership is growing within the union movement. most modern literature on Industrial relations advocates this.

Question: Does the INO have any active involvement with the nurses? Do you subscribe to the union?

yes it does. its grwoing and growing and is directed completely by the members. I do subscribe to the union, and am pretty active in it.......:eek: also quite involved in ICTU as well.....:p

Good debate.

you too, imagine what we'd be like if pints were involved lol it'd go on for a year!