Ageism

Dudess

Wow. That's really put me in my place. Chill guys. No need to get that upset.
It's like this: Imagine being in your 60s and some kid a third of your age says "oh, I'm getting old" or "I'm so old". Now it's pretty obvious what they mean - they're uncomfortable about growing up and all it entails. But they are not old and therefore they're using an inappropriate phrase.
Of course there's a difference between young and old. It's not ageist to hold that view. It is ageist, however, to discriminate against older people and to view age with such disdain. I emphasise older people because that's the group to whom I'm referring. Say all you like that younger people experience ageism, but nowhere near to the same degree as older people. Now if a young person says "I'm old" in such a woe-is-me manner, they are totally reinforcing ageist attitudes. Plenty of people I know, as I have said, get pissed off about kids saying their old, and feel like telling them to shut the hell up and quit complaining until they actually are old or getting old. Honestly, you'd swear I had made an appallingly offensive statement. It makes perfect sense to me. Some young people love to moan about how they're getting old and to act like times were harder when they were young etc. Bonkey and Zulu, you strike me as such people.

Dades

Hand it over... seriously!

There is nothing ageist, or insulting about daft 20 year old girls complaining about being old. It's just a realisation that as we get older certain things we were able to enjoy become out of our reach for good. And that happens at every age. To suggest this age old practice is "reinforcing ageist attitutes" is a stretch too far.

And I don't thing anyone here is really serious - I would suggest incredulous perhaps.

The Sweeper

I don't think ageism is necessarily sexism by another name.

However, we have far fewer expectations of young people these days than we used to have. Society has placed such a value on youth and beauty that the burden laid at the door of the young and beautiful is simply that they stay young and beautiful - men and women alike. However, of course, nobody gets to stay young and beautiful.

As a result, when you hit your late twenties, having spent much of your time doing a lot more for yourself and with yourself than people were doing even in your parents' era, suddenly you find yourself hit with a bunch of demands related to your career, housing situation, finances, life experience and potential role as a parent, and suddenly "not very much time left" to achieve those things.

I'm 30 this year. I'm still young. Genetically, my family live into their seventies. By the law of averages, and saving acts of God (or bus), I've lived less than half my life.

However, if I want children, the chances of me conceiving unaided (by modern medicine, rather than a third party who I believe is still vital to the chemistry) decrease with each year. I've completely missed the boat on the property ladder. I'm finally making an informed decision about my career after 12 years of working, where I know other people who've achieved far more than I have in their careers and are younger than I am.

I don't feel old - my family are very young at heart and I'm still the youngest of them. Still though, I look at people who are 21 and I consider them the same as 15 and 16 year olds. They behave similarly - in my opinion - in maturity and the things that seem to be important to them.

For me, the first time "ageism" bites is when you realise people have expectations of you based on your age - in other words, they expect you to have achieved a certain amount by a certain age and if you haven't, they wonder why not. Interestingly, I find that this expectation comes from people older than me as opposed to those younger than me.

People younger than me, who find out I got married at 27, think it was far too young. People older than me want to know when the first child is on the way and why, after three years, there is still no sign of one. People who are younger than me regard the housing market with dread and apprehension and never question the fact that I still rent. People who are older than me use phrases like "dead money" a lot, and do not seem to understand why I don't want to commit to a mortgage 10 times my salary, whereas they took out a mortgage 3.5 times their salary and still found it pinched in the bad times.

People who are younger than me sometimes think I'm cool for an old person. People who are older than me think I'm never going to grow up.

People currently in their late teens to mid twenties are often the offspring of the baby boomers, and as a result have had more provided for them and less expected of them than many generations before them. However, when they move out of that age bracket of 17 - 27 years, the reality that your youth doesn't last forever overtakes the cultural anomaly that is the "eternal childhood".

And because you haven't been prepped for it, it bites pretty damn hard.

What happened to "life begins at 40?" You're supposed to get a second chance, your kids have grown into teenagers, your mortgage has shrunk considerably, suddenly you get your life back and still have the time and the energy to capitalise on this new opportunity.

...the children of the baby boomers won't get that chance, because at this rate once they hit their forties their kids will be under ten years of age and their mortgage will still be huge. That's the downfall of ageism - we're really not living all that much longer than we used to...

bonkey

Dudess wrote:

Now it's pretty obvious what they mean - they're uncomfortable about growing up and all it entails. But they are not old and therefore they're using an inappropriate phrase.

No-one is suggesting that the phrasing is optimal. The question is whether or not it is related to ageism.

It is ageist, however, to discriminate against older people and to view age with such disdain.

A post or two ago you were suggesting that everyone feels uncomfortable about growing older....now you're suggesting that viewing the end result - being old - negatively is fundamentally wrong. You seem to be suggesting that everyone (a grouping you defended as reasonable) is fundamentally wrong to be uncomforatble with the notion seeing as they shouldn't view it in a negative light. Or would you argue that discomfort is a positive feeling?

I emphasise older people because that's the group to whom I'm referring.

Specifically those in or beyond their 40s, as you clarified in your second contribution to this thread.

Now if a young person says "I'm old" in such a woe-is-me manner, they are totally reinforcing ageist attitudes.

To whom?

If a 21-year-old is calling themselves old, then they are not reinforcing agest attitudes in those older than them, as they are the very people you are saying get annoyed by such foolishness. Surely the conclusion one should reach from this is that those older than them will be more opposed to real ageism given that such stupidity annoys them?

So perhaps its amongst their peers that they will be reinforcing the attitudes. Well, firstly, once such people grow up a bit, they will fall into the group I've already discussed and therefore should lose any ageism they may have acquired. Regardless, the argument is still a logical non sequitor as you fail to account for the fact that if the 21-year-old is reinforcing the notion that age is bad, they must also be reinforcing the notion that 21 can be considered old. So that means that all people from 21 upwards can be considered old.....so where is the ageism?

Plenty of people I know, as I have said, get pissed off about kids saying their old, and feel like telling them to shut the hell up and quit complaining until they actually are old or getting old.

That seems to be the general reaction to most immature complaining. The similarity would suggest that this should be dismissed as immaturity rather than dressed up as anything more sinister.

Honestly, you'd swear I had made an appallingly offensive statement. It makes perfect sense to me.

I'm sorry - I thought you started a thread on a discussion forum to discuss the topic. I wasn't aware that content was supposed to be limited to those who agreed with you.

Some young people love to moan about how they're getting old and to act like times were harder when they were young etc. Bonkey and Zulu, you strike me as such people.

I thank you for the demonstration of how repulsive ageist remarks are to you.

jc

Dudess

bonkey wrote:

A post or two ago you were suggesting that everyone feels uncomfortable about growing older....now you're suggesting that viewing the end result - being old - negatively is fundamentally wrong.

Ok. Let's start from scratch. When a kid enters their 20s or when they're in their late teens, they have to deal with scary stuff - leaving home, starting work/college etc. The realisation that they are no longer kids is not an easy one to deal with because of all these new responsibilities and uncertainties. As I have reiterated, I find this perfectly understandable. Most people go through such anxiety. I don't think I need to back up that statement. It's true. And you know it is. I'm saying it's understandable for people to feel uncomfortable about the challenges and realities facing them when they reach the point of growing up. However, for them to say that they're old or getting old is incorrect and I think it IS insulting to older people and especially elderly people. I also think this sense of doom about what they deem as getting old is symptomatic of how ageist society is, and also serves to reinforce ageism. It's not exactly in sympathy with elderly people, is it? I don't think it's the age of elderly people that is problematic for them, as much as society's attitudes.

bonkey wrote:

I'm sorry - I thought you started a thread on a discussion forum to discuss the topic. I wasn't aware that content was supposed to be limited to those who agreed with you.

You know damn well that I'm taken aback by how aggressive you're being. Fair enough to disagree with me, but my God, you seem almost hurt by my views. What's your problem? You reserve the right to get cantankerous about being in your 30s and you don't like someone being of the view that it's inappropriate to call yourself old or moan about being old when you're NOT old?

bonkey

Dudess wrote:

Ok. Let's start from scratch.

What does this achieve? Do you want me to now say "ah - you've repeated yourself (again) so its all clear now"? Do you want me to retype all the questions and counter-points that I've already made?

You know damn well that I'm taken aback by how aggressive you're being.

Aggressive? How am I being aggressive? Is it because I'm asking difficult questions?

I'm stating my opinion on the subject which is that regardless of the (in)correctness of what these people are saying, it is neither ageist nor reinforcing of ageism.

If I'm being forceful its because you've steadfastly refused to answer my questions on the issue, preferring to restate yourself as though this is somehow equivalent.

Fair enough to disagree with me, but my God, you seem almost hurt by my views.

I'm not hurt in any way by your views. I just think that there is no logical connection between the "what they're saying isn't the smartest thing in the world" and the notion of ageism.

I asked you who this reinforcement is being inflicted on. What did I get as the response - a restatement that reinforcement is occurring.

I asked you how it is reinforcing. What did I get as a response - a restatement that reinforcement is occurring.

I questioned your assertion that everyone is scared of getting older, and your response was to both question why I'm being so aggressive and to change yoru claim to exactly what I suggested was more correct - that most people will experience this feeling at a certain age.

Now you've taken a new tactic (borrowed from metrovelvet from what I can see) of attacknig the manner in which I ask these questions rather than actually dealing with them by responding to the issues I'm raising.

If I seem forceful its because I'm trying to get you to defend rather than restate your position. Fundamentally, I don't think you can defend it other than saying "thats what I believe", but I'm open to correction.

I disagree with you. I think you're flat out wrong, but would like to hear your side of the story because I'm open to the possibility that you've seen an angle that I've missed. However, no matter which way I ask the questions, all I'm getting is a response of "I'm right...it makes sense to me....and look, I'll say the same stuff again to back that up".

Now you're coupling the reiteration with ad hominem attacks, whilst simultaneously asking me what my problem is!!!

You've stated that you're in your late 20s. You've stated that only the old can know what its like to feel old. Despite both of these claims, you base your argument on the notion that you have an understanding of what the old are feeling - you are outraged on their behalf. This leaves three logical conclusions to choose from:

1) Your assertion that the young cannot know what it is to feel old is false
2) Your assertion that you know what the old are feeling is false
3) Your argument is logically inconsistent

What's your problem?

Your unwillingness to explain your position with relevance to the questions being asked of it, preferring to restate what you've already posted and/or engage in ad hominem attacks rather than discussing teh issues raised and/or attacking my arguments.

You reserve the right to get cantankerous about being in your 30s

Where have I gotten cantankerous about being in my 30s?

I've asked whether or not it is acceptable for me to feel old because of the fact that my physical condition is deteriorating, or whether I can only feel older - another question which you never addressed.

Never once did I say that I did feel old. Never once have I complained about my age.

The only person here suggesting that my age is the source of any issues here is you - the person who started this thread to complain about people attaching negative connotations to age. So now we have two posts from you making negative comments about me because of my age, whilst you're decrying the unacceptable unjustness of what you see as a reinforcing of ageism....

and you don't like someone being of the view that it's inappropriate to call yourself old or moan about being old when you're NOT old?

I have no problem with people being of that view. I have no problems whatever the view people hold. However, once someone chooses to discuss a situation and their view of it, I will take the opportunity to do just that.

Yet again you would seem to be faulting me for wishing to discuss how []iand why[/i] our viewpoints differ and for wishing to learn more about detail of your standpoint.....and yet again you seem to be using it as a means to avoid answering my questions.

If you don't want to discuss this with me, just say so.

jc

Zulu

Dudess wrote:

Bonkey and Zulu, you strike me as such people.

I made 2 posts on this thread. The first one: Rubbish. Whos elderly? and the second one: Thank you bonkey, perfectly put. ...and yet you seem to have read me so well. :rolleyes:

You make a crap point poorly ...or a poor point craply. You complain that a twenty something complaining of getting old is insulting to a 60 year old. Is it equally insulting for a 90 year old to listen to the bickerings of a 60 year old? ...or is it just that once you exceed 60 you are "old" and therefore an authority on "getting old".

FYI: everyone is getting old.

<Just read Bonkeys last post. Bravo! I think I can leave this to you!>

coffee_cake

heh, nice one bonkey.

Dudess

bonkey wrote:

Now you've taken a new tactic (borrowed from metrovelvet from what I can see) of attacknig the manner in which I ask these questions

I've got a mind of my own, thanks.

Dudess

bluewolf wrote:

heh, nice one bonkey.

Great contribution. I really don't think the back-slapping of other posters in a smirking manner without making points yourself is necessary.

LundiMardi

To be honest, i haven't read this thread, but my own case of ageism pisses me off!!!:mad:

I received a prospectus for a college i want to go to next year in the UK. I was very anxious to find out th fees for attending the college.

For me, a 22 year old, it would cost me 4500 STERLING. If i were 3 years younger however, i'd only have to pay 1500 :mad:!! Fúcking disgraceful!

McGinty

Just to add my 2cent worth, my mother's age is early 60's yet her mental age is around 25, the fact is her biological age does not match her mental age, I have a friend who is in her late 30's but her mental age is over 70, the fact that someone states I am getting old is in relation to their mental perception, whereby a 21 year old will say I am getting old, it is in relation to the fact that their teens are gone, I can see that you see this as offensive to older people, but having read the original posters threads, most older people would take umbrage at the comments made, some people are old before their time (mentally, which can in turn affect them physically) other people are younger than their years, again mentally, and don't honestly feel old. My parents have more energy than many 30-40 year olds that I know, including myself because I am somewhat lazy. I don't beleive that someone should be stopped from saying 'I feel old' regardless of their age, that does not stop ageism.

What brings about ageism, which is a problem, is fear. People are afraid of ageing, and I am one of them in a sense, however I am 34 at the moment, I am still fairly youthful looking apart from grey hair (but that was premature) but there are advantages to ageing as well, there is life experience, everything is not so black and white, you can see the shades of gray, you gain a certain confidence or couldn't give a **** attitude, you are who you are, now this does not relate to every person who ages, and there are many young people who are lucky enough to have this attitude, but I am talking on a generic level. There is a sense of ageism in the media, but I believe it has more to do with malliablity than youth, younger people can be easily manipulated, plus the love of youth has always been with us throughout time, we avoid ageing because it reminds us of death.

Dudess

To Bonkey and Zulu: My apologies for making judgmental remarks about the two of you and for posting in such an aggressive, stubborn manner. I've been feeling ****ty about it as it's not like me.
I had a think about this issue once I got the chance, and you're right. It's not ageist for a person of a young age to refer to themselves as old or getting old. And by flagging it as such, I'm further reinforcing the notion of age as something terrible. It's not a black and white issue as I had previously thought it to be. I just hadn't thought it out properly. It's actually a bloody complex issue and my head's doing somersaults over it.
I still do think it can be a bit unfair, in some cases, on those who are a lot older, for a person of, for instance, 21, to say they're getting old; as in, to feel that the weight of the world is upon them when they're just starting out in life. I also think it could be construed as symptomatic of ageism in society. These are just my opinions, but I know they don't strictly apply. I know it's all relative to the person's stage in life. It's not necessarily unfair on every older person either, and as you rightly said, Zulu, what exactly constitutes old. I'm speaking, I suppose, about elderly people, but I know that's oversimplifying the issue. Some people of 50 may feel old, yet 50 isn't strictly old.
I could just go round and round and round!
Anyways, hope all is forgiven.

rubadub

years and age are all relative in actual time AND ratios. i.e. a 20 year old guy with a 15year old girl is a bit dodgy, but a 25 year guy and 20 y.o. girl is far more acceptable.

My mother had a birthday card that I made when I was tiny, it said happy 21st (which she said she was every year) she would've been about 35 at the time. I can remember making it thinking "my god 21? thats ancient".

So the 21yo thinks they are old since it was not long ago since they were 15. I remember getting refused from pubs at 17 and them saying "over 23's" and thinking "jesus, 23 year olds should be at home knitting or in the bingo hall".

All relative, when I am 50 I will probably be looking at 70 year olds thinking that is old. When I am 70 it will be the 90 year olds.

Its not so much old as older

JustAnother

Dudess wrote:

I'm sure most young people would consider ageism appalling and would not deem themselves to be ageist. Yet I'm constantly hearing the likes of "Oh I'm nearly 23. I'm getting so old." Eh, no you're not. And that is insulting to people who actually are old. We live in a terribly ageist society so why are people reinforcing it further by referring to themselves as old once they pass 21? I know it's tough growing up and facing into adulthood, but that's not the same as getting old. What do people think?

I've heard teenagers saying people in their thirties are "in the nineties". I know teenagers are sterotyped as being fond of hyperbole, but it's so irritating...