Ageism

Dudess

I'm sure most young people would consider ageism appalling and would not deem themselves to be ageist. Yet I'm constantly hearing the likes of "Oh I'm nearly 23. I'm getting so old." Eh, no you're not. And that is insulting to people who actually are old. We live in a terribly ageist society so why are people reinforcing it further by referring to themselves as old once they pass 21? I know it's tough growing up and facing into adulthood, but that's not the same as getting old. What do people think?

coffee_cake

Dudess wrote:

I'm sure most young people would consider ageism appalling and would not deem themselves to be ageist. Yet I'm constantly hearing the likes of "Oh I'm nearly 23. I'm getting so old." Eh, no you're not. And that is insulting to people who actually are old. We live in a terribly ageist society so why are people reinforcing it further by referring to themselves as old once they pass 21? I know it's tough growing up and facing into adulthood, but that's not the same as getting old. What do people think?

People feel older every year
Relatively speaking, they're old anyway

Merrick

They're most likely either messing or freaking out about being seen as a responsible adult when they have the mindset of a 12 year old. I've got friends who feel they're too old because they're turning 21 this year and haven't the capacity for responsibility at all, while I'm only 17 and therefore find even 20 ancient...

Dudess

Merrick wrote:

They're most likely either messing or freaking out about being seen as a responsible adult when they have the mindset of a 12 year old. I've got friends who feel they're too old because they're turning 21 this year and haven't the capacity for responsibility at all.

Oh I know. But misusing the word "old" just irks me. 70-something is old. I've spoken to people in their 40s and upwards about it and it pisses them off.

Dades

Remember no matter what age you are there is always someone younger than you to make you feel old.

I have say though, commenting about how young people don't know what it means to be old, makes you sound old...

Dudess

The Atheist wrote:

I have say though, commenting about how young people don't know what it means to be old, makes you sound old...

I'm not commenting on how young people don't know what it means to be old. Entering your 20s is scary, and the prospect of growing up is not an attractive one. I just don't think that people in this position should refer to themselves as "old". It's a term that is only appropriate for elderly people and if you're 20-something and calling yourself old, you're insulting people who actually are old. Not even people who are old - middle-aged people, people in their 30s, late 20s even. I'm nearly 28. I know I'm young, but there are people who would consider me old. Granted, if you're 18, 28 seems miles away but that doesn't make it old.

bonkey

Dudess wrote:

I'm sure most young people would consider ageism appalling

Isn't limiting that comment to a particular age-group in and of itself ageist?

Yet I'm constantly hearing the likes of "Oh I'm nearly 23. I'm getting so old." Eh, no you're not. And that is insulting to people who actually are old.

Whats insulting about it?

At what point is it acceptable for one to feel like one is getting old? Isn't the definition of such a boundary again an ageist thought-process in and of itself?

I'm in my 30s. Am I allowed feel old in your book? My knees took weeks to recover from a winter of skiing....I can't do all-nighters as effortlessly as I used to be able to....I see more and more grey hairs....and so on and so forth. Am I being ageist if I feel I'm getting old, or am I just feeling that I'm getting older and phrasing it badly.

We live in a terribly ageist society

Are we? Surely ageist is when one is unfairly discriminated against because of age. There's nothing ageist about recognising that people of different ages have different characteristics, strengths and weaknesses.

I know it's tough growing up and facing into adulthood, but that's not the same as getting old.

Kids tend to see things that way, though. Primary school kids see secondary school kids as old. Secondary school kids see college students as old. College students see graduates as old. Once you get past 21, though, where's the next milestone? Your 40th birthday, perhaps....literally as far away as your entire life thus far has lasted.

Its a scary boundary, and unlike childhood where there are large changes every couple of years, there are no major predetermined boundaries....until perhaps your 40th, 50th and then retirement.

Until you've reached the maturity to learn that growing up is not the same as growing older, the attitude you decry seems perfectly reasonable to me. At a guess, its not the more mature / elder who would generally complain about it being ageist either.

More likely they will smile and think "you will learn".

jc

Dudess

bonkey wrote:

Isn't limiting that comment to a particular age-group in and of itself ageist?
I don't think so. Older people experience ageism at the hands of younger people.

Whats insulting about it?
It's insulting if you're, say, in your 60s and facing into old age, and someone half your age or younger says "I'm getting old". My dad just turned 60 and it's freaking him out. He knows there are realities ahead of him such as not-so-robust physical health and friends getting ill and dying.

At what point is it acceptable for one to feel like one is getting old? Isn't the definition of such a boundary again an ageist thought-process in and of itself?
But surely it's logical for one to feel like they're getting old when they're actually getting old (i.e. entering old age) - not older.

I'm in my 30s. Am I allowed feel old in your book?
But you're not old. That's my point. You're getting older, yes, but not old.

Am I being ageist if I feel I'm getting old, or am I just feeling that I'm getting older and phrasing it badly.
Bingo


Are we? Surely ageist is when one is unfairly discriminated against because of age. There's nothing ageist about recognising that people of different ages have different characteristics, strengths and weaknesses.
I think it's ageist for people to treat old age as such a terrible affliction, and it's reinforced even further when young people say they're getting old.

Kids tend to see things that way, though. Primary school kids see secondary school kids as old. Secondary school kids see college students as old. College students see graduates as old.
Couldn't agree more. But the word "old" is inappropriate.

Until you've reached the maturity to learn that growing up is not the same as growing older, the attitude you decry seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Again, I agree. There's nothing wrong with being 17 and considering 25 a scary age, but don't call it old. That's all I'm saying!

At a guess, its not the more mature / elder who would generally complain about it being ageist either.

More likely they will smile and think "you will learn".jc

I'm sure you're right in some cases, but I've talked to people who aren't even elderly and, as I said, it pisses them off.

simu

Yes - we live in an ageist society but the aspect of this ageism you chose to highlight in this thread is one of the most trivial. There are far greater problems such as enforced retirement once a person reaches an arbitrarily-chosen age, for instance.

Dudess

I know it's trivial in itself, but it still serves to reinforce ageist attitudes. That's what I find so objectionable. If people refer to themselves as old once they hit 21 and over, it's unhelpful to those who feel discriminated against because of their age. Certain industries - music, film, fashion, media - would consider anyone over 35 or even 30 to be too old for employment (particularly, it has to be said, women). We can resign ourselves to the fact that this is simply the way things are, but that doesn't make it right, and by being complacent or by agreeing with the views held by such companies (consciously or not), we're only aiding and abetting them.

metrovelvet

bonkey wrote:

Whats insulting about it?

At what point is it acceptable for one to feel like one is getting old? Isn't the definition of such a boundary again an ageist thought-process in and of itself?

Are we? Surely ageist is when one is unfairly discriminated against because of age. There's nothing ageist about recognising that people of different ages have different characteristics, strengths and weaknesses.

Its the attitude which accompanies it, as if its a bad, negative thing. It reinforces the fear of ageing and of death. If you were a woman you would feel it more.

bonkey

metrovelvet wrote:

Its the attitude which accompanies it, as if its a bad, negative thing. It reinforces the fear of ageing and of death.

It doesn't reinforce this fear. Its a symptom of it.

Its generally the first signs of recognising it.

People generally lose their "sense of immortality" round about the time their bodies start disimproving and/or some other aspect of their lives forces them into understanding that they will age, their bodies will disimprove, and ultimately they will die.

If you were a woman you would feel it more.

Isn't that sexist?

Is it ok to promote sexism in order to fight ageism?

Or will you accuse me of trying to make a molehill into a mountain? After all, thats the criticism I'm laying at the OP - that the only people who take issue with such trivial things are those who are over-reacting. Like the OP, I can claim that I know people whom it angers. Unlike the OP, I think the problem lies - there as here - with those who take offence at such trivialities.

Regardless, wouldn't your claim mean that a 20-something woman has a basis on which to claim she feels old. After all - she feels it more, right?

So maybe she does feel old.

How dare someone of greater physical age assume that they have a better understanding of the human psyche in general and the individual's psyche in particular to insinuate that the person is not only wrong to feel old, but even wronger to voice said feeling.

Thats nothing but reverse ageism - assuming that younger people don't have a valid basis on which to make their claims.

Dudess wrote:

Certain industries - music, film, fashion, media - would consider anyone over 35 or even 30 to be too old for employment (particularly, it has to be said, women).

Right. Thats why they originally wanted Britney for the role that Dame Judy got nominated most recently for. Unfortunately, Britney was washing her hair the day of filming, as was every other younger woman, so they reluctantly settled for someone older.

I notice that both you and metrovelvet are slowly turning this into a sexist-thing. Its not ageism...its ageism against women. Which in turn can be simplified down to women being treated differently to men, which is - at its heart - sexist.

So can we drop the pretence, and admit that what we're discussing here is sexism? Of course, what with metrovelvet having told me that women feel these things differently, apparently some sexist distinctions when it comes to age are perfectly OK.....

Molehills. Mountains. These are small. Those are far away.

jc

metrovelvet

No bonkey thats not fair.

Our culture is ageist but moreso for women. Thats more of how I would see it.

For example is Japan, the elderly are treated with respect as they are soon to have acquired wisdom and knowlege, but for us the elderly are redundant.

For women, this process starts a lot sooner than it does for men. Thats all. So stop being difficult. We're just trying to have a conversation here.

Dades

So stop being difficult. We're just trying to have a conversation here.

Just because Bonkey's valid points are difficult to answer, doesn't make him difficult. The way the ageism argument is being portrayed here is simply trivial. The real issues of ageism have been mentioned, but they are being ignored in favor of some intangible issue involving "young" people who think they are "old".

metrovelvet wrote:

For example is Japan, the elderly are treated with respect as they are soon to have acquired wisdom and knowlege, but for us the elderly are redundant. For women, this process starts a lot sooner than it does for men

So elderly women are more redundant than elderly men? Where did this notion come from?

BTW the treatment of elderly in society is a valid concern, unlike the idea that it is insulting to older people for a "young" person to consider themselves "old".

Dudess

bonkey wrote:

Regardless, wouldn't your claim mean that a 20-something woman has a basis on which to claim she feels old. After all - she feels it more, right? So maybe she does feel old.

How the **** can she "feel old" when she isn't old and doesn't know what it's like to be old? She can be freaked out about getting older, but she has no right to say "I feel old".

bonkey wrote:

How dare someone of greater physical age assume that they have a better understanding of the human psyche in general and the individual's psyche in particular to insinuate that the person is not only wrong to feel old, but even wronger to voice said feeling.

Who's that directed at? If it's me, well I'm 28 so I certainly don't think I'm at an age where I can claim to have a better understanding of the human psyche in general or the individual's psyche. I don't think it's wrong for a young individual to feel uncomfortable about getting older. I do, however, think it's wrong for them to say they're getting old. I'm not insinuating that. I'm saying it straight out.

bonkey wrote:

Thats nothing but reverse ageism - assuming that younger people don't have a valid basis on which to make their claims.

I'm not applying it to every situation - just this one. And they don't have a valid basis for claiming that they're old or getting old. Surely that makes sense. They don't have a valid basis for making such claims simply because they are young.

bonkey wrote:

Right. Thats why they originally wanted Britney for the role that Dame Judy got nominated most recently for. Unfortunately, Britney was washing her hair the day of filming, as was every other younger woman, so they reluctantly settled for someone older.

Fair point. But you can't deny that our image-obsessed culture is also youth-obsessed.

bonkey wrote:

I notice that both you and metrovelvet are slowly turning this into a sexist-thing. Its not ageism...its ageism against women.

Nope. Not me. I don't agree with ageism against either gender. It's true, though, that women, because they are judged on their looks more, feel it more.

metrovelvet

The Atheist wrote:

So elderly women are more redundant than elderly men? Where did this notion come from?

No. Women become redundant earlier than men. Once your menopausal who gives a **** about you.

simu

Well ,tbh there's more to life than looking like a model. Plenty of people care about post-menopausal women. Again, people seem to be focusing on the more trivial aspects of aging. There are greater issues facing ageing women than having wrinkles - the fact that they tend to spend less time in the work force and amass fewer pension credits despite having a longer post-retirement lifespan, on average, than men would strike me as a biggie.

And tbh, whinging along the lines of "OMG - people say stuff like this, how can they be so insensitive" doesn't really make for a discussion imhoe.

Dudess

simu wrote:

And tbh, whinging along the lines of "OMG - people say stuff like this, how can they be so insensitive" doesn't really make for a discussion imhoe.

But wouldn't you agree that such comments are symptomatic of how ageist society is? They're not the be all and end all certainly, but they are part of the bigger picture.

simu

Dudess wrote:

But wouldn't you agree that such comments are symptomatic of how ageist society is? They're not the be all and end all certainly, but they are part of the bigger picture.

They're usually off the cuff remarks, though so I wouldn't take them all that seriously.

Dudess

simu wrote:

They're usually off the cuff remarks, though so I wouldn't take them all that seriously.

Usually, but not always. If I felt they were only off the cuff or intended as a bit of a joke, I wouldn't have started this thread. I know girls in their 20s and early 30s who cry on their birthdays. I know they're uncomfortable about getting older. Everyone is, but they should count their blessings and be glad that it's not their 70th or 80th birthday. That's when life really gets difficult in terms of people's attitudes.

nlgbbbblth

Dudess wrote:

Yet I'm constantly hearing the likes of "Oh I'm nearly 23. I'm getting so old." Eh, no you're not.

People who come out with such statements are idiots.

Faith

I'm 19 and I'm prone to moaning about how I'm getting old. This is countered my my flatmate who says "I'm 21- imagine how I feel!". The thing is, when I say it, I'm either joking or saying it in a comparative sense. It feels like only yesterday that I was 12 with no worries in the world. Now I'm 19, living in a different country, I've just bought my own apartment, I'm studying for a serious degree that will lead to my future career. It genuinely feels like I'm getting old and sometimes it even scares me.

Perhaps it would be more accurate if we were to say "I'm 19, I'm getting so grown up". I know in my case, and in that of my friends, that's what we mean. But whenever I'm talking to my mum (who's in her mid 50's) or other similarly aged friends and I comment on how I think i'm getting old, they all agree with me because they understand that I mean it in a comparative sense.

I can't imagine many elderly people really getting irritated when people younger than them comment about feeling old. There is more than one interpretation.

Dudess

Well it's unusual for a 19-year-old to be doing stuff as grown up as you, so I can understand your apprehension. You're a bit of an exception. It would be laughable for most other 19-year-olds to even think "oh I'm 19. NINETEEN!!! And I'm getting so grown up" let alone to say they're getting old. It's just the use of the phrase "old" or "getting old" that I find objectionable.
By the way, don't worry at all. You'll be fine. I was facing all that anxiety about growing up myself in my early 20s. You've nothing to worry about. In fact, it gets less scary. I'm nearly 28 now and I have never felt so confident and content with myself. I know I'm not speaking for all 28-year-olds, but hopefully a lot of them.

pork99

Dudess wrote:

Certain industries - music, film, fashion, media - would consider anyone over 35 or even 30 to be too old for employment (particularly, it has to be said, women).

Corporations generally like to recruit people in their 20s most of the time - at that age you are malleable. Personally I think it's a symptom of the "Peter Principle" - managers rise to their own personal level of incompetence and no manager likes to hire people more experienced/competent than him/her self as they will risk being shown up if they do. I've seen it happening!

(I say this as a former corporate employee who will never see 29 again - and very happy to be out of that environment )

But this angst about being 21 or 30 or whatever is nonsensical in an era when the average life expectancy is 80+ and rising. If you were an 19th Century coal miner who could not expect to live much beyond his 35th birthday then reaching 30 might have been fairly depressing* but it's relatively quite young nowadays. Even 40 is not that old in this context. My parents are in their mid 60s but more like 45 year olds in many ways. Remember that the 65 year old retirement age was first introduced in Germany in the 19th century the average life expectancy was around 65.

*Trust the Onion to find the black humour in this

Dudess

pork99 wrote:

Trust the Onion to find the black humour in this

Tee hee hee!:D

bonkey

Dudess wrote:

I know girls in their 20s and early 30s who cry on their birthdays.

I would suggest that such people deserve our help and pity rather than our scorn for being so insensitive to others with their ageism.

I know they're uncomfortable about getting older. Everyone is,

No. Everyone isn't. Maybe everyone you know is, or a large number of people within a certain age-bracket are, but to suggest that everyone is uncomfortable about frowing older is ridiculous and unfounded.

It also utterly undermines the suggestion that young people commenting on "getting old" are being unknowingly ageist. They're not being discriminatory, by your reasoning. They are simply voicing a feeling rooted in a fear that you claim everyone shares.

jc

Dudess

The point I'm making, for the umpteenth time, is that I understand a person's anxiety about getting older, growing up etc, but to say "I'm old" or "I'm getting old" is a ludicrous thing to say. Only elderly people know what it's like to be old or getting old. I think it's a perfectly reasonable point to make. I also think it's reasonable to assume that pretty much everyone is anxious about getting older.

Zulu

Dudess wrote:

Only elderly people know what it's like to be old or getting old.

Rubbish. Whos elderly?

Dudess

Who's elderly? Erm, I would have thought those in their 70s and upwards.

bonkey

Dudess wrote:

The point I'm making, for the umpteenth time, is that I understand a person's anxiety about getting older, growing up etc, but to say "I'm old" or "I'm getting old" is a ludicrous thing to say.

I thought we were discussing whether or not its ageist, not whether or not its intelligent?

Only elderly people know what it's like to be old or getting old. I think it's a perfectly reasonable point to make.

So you think its perfectly reasonable to distinguish between people's ability to do something, based on nothing other than their age....in a thread that you started to complain about ageism - the manner in which society distinguishes between people's ability to do something based on nothing other than their age.

You see no problem "only old people..." whilst complaining about ageism.

Tell me...if someone were to say "only young people...", would you decry it as ageist?

The more this thread goes on, the more it seem to be the posters who complain about ageism who are the ones making comments which differentiate solely on age-based reasoning. Funny, that.

I also think it's reasonable to assume that pretty much everyone is anxious about getting older.

Based on what reasoning?

I ask because reason is central to something being reasonable, yet you've offered no reason...just a claim that it exists.

18-to-25-year-olds may feel its reasonable to say they feel old. Some obviously feel that its reasonable as they have made such comments.

You're here saying that they're wrong because you know some people whom it annoys....and yet you've no compunction not only about saying people are too young to experience something, but about defending it on no more grounds than that you think its reasonable.

To quote your own good self : I'm sure most young people would consider ageism appalling and would not deem themselves to be ageist.

I'm sure you don't consider yourself ageist either, and yet in complaining about these young people who can't know what it means to feel old (by your reasoning), you've offered nothing but comments about how the young and old are different.

So how is it ageism to treat people differently because of their age, given that you believe they are fundamentally different in this way?

jc

Zulu

Thank you bonkey, perfectly put.