Extremely strong argument

flogen

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2006/03/modernity_or_ba.html

A superb argument to be made, although even the most moderate of Muslims would agree that praising the West so much is a little bit ignorant.

At the same time, her beliefs in regards Religious tolerance are faultless IMO, and she does make a good point about the benefits of forcing respect through achievement rather than violence.

I'm sure her words will insult just as much as they inspire

county

very intresting and quite inspiring,a strong lady that talks a lot of sense

Shabadu

It was a lot more soundbite than substance imo. She's very naieve if she honestly believes the West is the great liberator and defender of basic human rights. America may the 'human rights' self styled proponent, but it consistently fails to live up to it's own hype.

Karl Hungus

Shabadu wrote:

She's very naieve if she honestly believes the West is the great liberator and defender of basic human rights.

I didn't see where she stated anything of the sort.

Shabadu

Karl Hungus wrote:

I didn't see where she stated anything of the sort.

When she described it as a conflict between 'human rights on one side, and the violation of those human rights on the other'.

Karl Hungus

Shabadu wrote:

When she described it as a conflict between 'human rights on one side, and the violation of those human rights on the other'.

But that's hardly saying that 'the west' is some great liberator, or defender of human rights. However, the west does indeed have more human rights than in most Muslim countries, and certainly America doesn't live up to it's own hype, but America isn't the only country in this supposed region that's called "The West" is it?

Shabadu

Karl Hungus wrote:

But that's hardly saying that 'the west' is some great liberator, or defender of human rights.

In my opinion, she was overly effusive about 'the west' in general, and yes, I got the impression she was pushing it as some sort of shining beacon of civilisation compared to the 'muslim cultures'

However, the west does indeed have more human rights than in most Muslim countries,

Oh really? While I agree that the west seems to give women & prisoners a lot more entitlements than muslim countries, it is my opinion that the poorest and least entiltled members of western society are generally referred to as 'scum' or 'white trash' by a large portion of the percieved 'middle classes', as opposed to some Muslim countries, where people seem to still have a much greater sense of community, brotherhood and family. I realise this is overruled by some classist muslim countries, and internal strife between different Muslim sects, as we can see in Iraq, Pakistan and Iran.

I also completely disagree with the capital punishment employed by some of these countries, but let us not forget all the 'western' countries that torture and employ capital punishment.

When it comes down to day-to-day survival of families, here in 'the west' 2 people pretty much have to work full time to support a family, a mortgatge and a home. Our basic human right of having and maintaining a family is being gradually eroded.

and certainly America doesn't live up to it's own hype, but America isn't the only country in this supposed region that's called "The West" is it?

Wow- I'd love for you to point out to me where I said that America= the West. I said it tried to be the proponent of free speech, which it does, consistently.

Hobbes

I found her aguments for the most part typical of an Athestist (which she more or less says she is). Some of it is true, some of it isn't (mainly the part where she is lumping troubles all solely on the Muslim faith). There is also the typical blinkered aspect of seeing Muslims as the extremist states, when it is pretty diverse.

Good to see that it was on AJ tv. Kind of dispels that media there is biased, although without a better translation she could of been on the ME version of the O'Reilly factor. :v:

Oh and I also got the impression she was reading it off a script.

Karl Hungus

Shabadu wrote:

In my opinion, she was overly effusive about 'the west' in general, and yes, I got the impression she was pushing it as some sort of shining beacon of civilisation compared to the 'muslim cultures'

Depends on your perspective really, doesn't it? I imagine she'd be killed for her views, if she ever entered a Muslim country, so I'd say that a country that lets her speak her views without reprisal would seem a lot more civilized than a country where she might indeed have vast repercussions for saying what she thinks. Depending on how strict a Muslim country would be, she mightn't even have the right to speak in the first place.

Shabadu wrote:

Oh really? While I agree that the west seems to give women & prisoners a lot more entitlements than muslim countries, it is my opinion that the poorest and least entiltled members of western society are generally referred to as 'scum' or 'white trash' by a large portion of the percieved 'middle classes', as opposed to some Muslim countries, where people seem to still have a much greater sense of community, brotherhood and family. I realise this is overruled by some classist muslim countries, and internal strife between different Muslim sects, as we can see in Iraq, Pakistan and Iran.

I also completely disagree with the capital punishment employed by some of these countries, but let us not forget all the 'western' countries that torture and employ capital punishment.

When it comes down to day-to-day survival of families, here in 'the west' 2 people pretty much have to work full time to support a family, a mortgatge and a home. Our basic human right of having and maintaining a family is being gradually eroded.

Arguably, I'd say that those are social and economic problems, and nothing to do with human rights, but that's a whole other arguement that I hope we don't get into to. So I'll just say for now that we've got some quite different perspectives and views on this.

Shabadu wrote:

Wow- I'd love for you to point out to me where I said that America= the West. I said it tried to be the proponent of free speech, which it does, consistently.

Indeed you did say that it tries to be the proponent, and fails, but that's hardly what I'm getting at. I never said or suggested at all that "America = the West" but just that it seemed to me that you hand-picked America as an example.

Seems like you're saying "Well, the west ain't all that great on the whole human rights things, because America boasts about it's freedoms, and doesn't live up to it." You're deliberately picking a bad example.

Anyway, I'd rather not get into a long drawn out discussion with you, because this is all about what you personally precieved from the video in question, and it's just that I didn't see the same thing, so this could go on and on and on. Just admit you're wrong and we'll leave it at that so.

Shabadu

zomg- this is because I'm a woman, isn't it? :V

I suppose my opinion on it is that all cultures have pretty crap aspects in general.

Karl Hungus

Shabadu wrote:

zomg- this is because I'm a woman, isn't it? :V

I suppose my opinion on it is that all cultures have pretty crap aspects in general.

Yeah, except for Japan.

Sand

Hmm, shes quite impressive when she gets into full flow isnt she? I think though she fell into a trap when she agreed with the interviewer that she associated the west with modern freedom and the muslim world with backwardness. She might actually think that, but a majority of muslims would turn off right about there. There is a clash between the modern and the backward, but it is Arab/Islamic society itself as much as anything - i.e. the seeming paradox of religious police in Indonesia raiding discos to arrest young Muslims out having a good time. How can society accomdate the right to so blatantly and forcefully enforce religious beliefs on others and the concept of individual human rights?

Mind you she fought brilliantly out of the interviewers "clash of civillisations" question ( I cant see myself thinking that fast on the spot), but like I said most muslims wouldnt be listening by that stage because shes already told them theyre backward.

She clearly has extremely strong views. Its sign of some hope that she was able to express them to (if not in) the Arab world, if only via video link. It makes you wonder how close Arab/Islamic society is to a tipping point in either direction ( i.e. how many people in Saudia Arabia believe women shouldnt have to wear the burka, but are afraid to speak out even though they might be the majority?)

Oh and I also got the impression she was reading it off a script.

True, I was impressed by how well she launched into her speech. Only stumbled once, though perhaps she simply was angry as hell and was simply not thinking about how to couch her views in bland non offensive terms. The jumping straight into the trap of assigning backwardness to Muslims is an indication she was engaging her mouth before her brain. I cant see her doing that if she was reading off a script.

She's very naieve if she honestly believes the West is the great liberator and defender of basic human rights.

Im reminded why I liked Orwells quote so much I used it as my sig. Because theres *some* flaws with Western societies, its no better than any other society. If you want to be *really* cynical, the West *is* the great liberator and defender of human rights. What that says for the rest of the world is depressing.

certainly America doesn't live up to it's own hype, but America isn't the only country in this supposed region that's called "The West" is it?

And its not the only country to hype itself up either. Hence the barely restrained smirk which every US reporter carried when covering the recent riots in France.

OT - That website is hilarious btw. Theres an add for Democratic Dates? I know American society is polarised but political inbreeding is taking it a bit far isnt it?

Hobbes

Sand wrote:

OT - That website is hilarious btw. Theres an add for Democratic Dates? I know American society is polarised but political inbreeding is taking it a bit far isnt it?

You mean you have never seen the Republican one?

http://www.republicansingles.com/

Sand

You mean you have never seen the Republican one?

I hope their kids grow up to be hardline Democrats/Republicans as (in)appropriate. It will be the only way theyll be able to rebel.

On topic again, I was curious about this woman and did a little digging. The NYT carries a piece on her (sign up required, 20 seconds spent) and its explains where her anger comes from.

Dr. Sultan grew up in a large traditional Muslim family in Banias, Syria, a small city on the Mediterranean about a two-hour drive north of Beirut. Her father was a grain trader and a devout Muslim, and she followed the faith's strictures into adulthood.

But, she said, her life changed in 1979 when she was a medical student at the University of Aleppo, in northern Syria. At that time, the radical Muslim Brotherhood was using terrorism to try to undermine the government of President Hafez al-Assad. Gunmen of the Muslim Brotherhood burst into a classroom at the university and killed her professor as she watched, she said.

"They shot hundreds of bullets into him, shouting, 'God is great!' " she said. "At that point, I lost my trust in their god and began to question all our teachings. It was the turning point of my life, and it has led me to this present point. I had to leave. I had to look for another god."

Dave!

Fair play to her, she put it well. Of course, she can't exactly visit the Middle East ever again now Well, until there's a Starbucks there! I doubt she'd want to, mind.

Hopefully not the last we'll hear from her, it's nice to hear a voice of reason.

fly_agaric

Shabadu wrote:

...it is my opinion that the poorest and least entiltled members of western society are generally referred to as 'scum' or 'white trash' by a large portion of the percieved 'middle classes', as opposed to some Muslim countries, where people seem to still have a much greater sense of community, brotherhood and family.

I'm sure such attitudes exist in every country to varying degrees. Even in Soviet Russia the people with govt. jobs, party bigwigs etc certainly regarded themselves as a cut above your average "comrade".

As for the brotherhood/family thing - this can be taken a bit too far for people's own good at times (nepotism and corruption). But we know all about that in Ireland.

The Clown Man

an add on that site wrote:

DEMOCRAT DATES!

ActForLove.org - the dating site for Democrats, liberals, and activists.

Because a hot bod is a lot hotter -- when it has a brain and a heart to match...

....


....


....


Frankly, I'm speechless after seeing that...

People are mad. Everywhere. Nuff said.

Karl Hungus

The Clown Man wrote:

People are mad. Everywhere. Nuff said.

Yeah, it's true. You know they've got a dating forum on stromfront? If I wasn't so turned on by the idea of sleeping with a woman dressed in a nazi uniform, I'd be shocked! :eek:

Wibbs

She's brave, I'll give her that and made some very good points. Fair play for AlJazeera putting her on, though I agree with others, that when she got into full flow the religious would probably have switched. You never know though. Stuff like this can have an effect. I agree with Hobbes re the script. I suspect though that she's rehearsed this speech in her head for a very long time. That may explain the scripted feel. The part about Jews not blowing up germans etc was well rehearsed. Mostly true IMHO.

Sand wrote:

If you want to be *really* cynical, the West *is* the great liberator and defender of human rights. What that says for the rest of the world is depressing.

Bang on the money.

Karl Hungus wrote:

Yeah, it's true. You know they've got a dating forum on stromfront? If I wasn't so turned on by the idea of sleeping with a woman dressed in a nazi uniform, I'd be shocked!

Class as usual.

rsynnott

Shabadu wrote:

I also completely disagree with the capital punishment employed by some of these countries, but let us not forget all the 'western' countries that torture and employ capital punishment.

Only two developed-world countries execute, and only a few use torture or 'inhuman treatment' (banned in the EU and Israel, more common elsewhere; sleep deprivation and such).

When it comes down to day-to-day survival of families, here in 'the west' 2 people pretty much have to work full time to support a family, a mortgatge and a home. Our basic human right of having and maintaining a family is being gradually eroded.

Just to live, they don't. The issue is with consumerism, rather than anything else.

Wow- I'd love for you to point out to me where I said that America= the West. I said it tried to be the proponent of free speech, which it does, consistently.

Well, when it suits it.

Karl Hungus wrote:

Yeah, except for Japan.

Death penalty, increasing slide back to nationalism, treatment of women in practice, treatment of gay people, treatment of immigrants... Hardly the perfect society, really.

Sand wrote:

OT - That website is hilarious btw. Theres an add for Democratic Dates? I know American society is polarised but political inbreeding is taking it a bit far isnt it?

Oh, it gets worse; there are websites for 'which nationalist' (Nazi/KKK) dating and such, too!

Karl Hungus wrote:

Yeah, it's true. You know they've got a dating forum on stromfront? If I wasn't so turned on by the idea of sleeping with a woman dressed in a nazi uniform, I'd be shocked! :eek:

Ah, dating for the braindead. See above.

And, of course, when it comes down to it, the west is the closest the world has to a 'Great liberator', when it feels like it.

Karl Hungus

rsynnott wrote:

Death penalty, increasing slide back to nationalism, treatment of women in practice, treatment of gay people, treatment of immigrants... Hardly the perfect society, really.

Well, when I was there just recently, I thought it was pretty god damn awesome. But seriously, I mentioned Japan merely as a joke.

AngryBadger

Some brilliantly candid points made there. I'd love to see that interview/debate in its entirity, anyone have any linkage perhaps?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Hobbes wrote:

I found her aguments for the most part typical of an Athestist (which she more or less says she is). Some of it is true, some of it isn't (mainly the part where she is lumping troubles all solely on the Muslim faith).

What's typical of an Atheist? Pretty brash statement to make without backing it up with something

She's slightly off the mark, you're right there. But why bother with that when you know it's only a small subpoint of hers. What she's really pointing out is that Islam is wrong for thinking there's some sort of real human difference between Muslims & Non-Muslims & it's acceptable to act on this supposed difference.

Just so you know I share the same philosophy of Dr Sultan, it's ridiculous to assume killing non-believers is beneficial to your problems.

There is also the typical blinkered aspect of seeing Muslims as the extremist states,
when it is pretty diverse.

Any chance you could elaborate on the relevence of that point to the rest of your argument?

Oh and I also got the impression she was reading it off a script.

On behalf of every registered boards.ie member I wish to thank you for pointing that out.

Hobbes

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

What's typical of an Atheist?

It is rare that you will find an Atheist who doesn't blame religon for everything that has happened since the dawn of time. Of couse some of that is correct but tends to draw away from other factors of a situation. Not everything revolves around religon.

What she's really pointing out is that Islam is wrong for thinking there's some sort of real human difference between Muslims & Non-Muslims & it's acceptable to act on this supposed difference.

Come again? and how does that differ from any other religon?

Any chance you could elaborate on the relevence of that point to the rest of your argument?

Easy. a lot of people (appears you too) see Islam as "Iran" or "afganistan" or "taliban", etc. All you can see is the extremism. However the majority of Muslims are not extremists, nor do they display or actively encourge the stuff that the *west* take offense at.

There are around 15 or so muslims in the department I work (of about 60 or so people). Of that you would be hard pressed to point out half of that group in a line up, add to that only about 3-4 of them pray daily in work.

There are varying levels of Muslims in much the same way there are varying levels of Catholics in our society. One may claim to be more correct (eg. No condoms, no sex outside marriage, no abortion) doesn't mean that everyone who sees themselves as such shares the same traits.

On behalf of every registered boards.ie member I wish to thank you for pointing that out.

Not sure what you are on about.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Hobbes wrote:

It is rare that you will find an Atheist who doesn't blame religon for everything that has happened since the dawn of time. Of couse some of that is correct but tends to draw away from other factors of a situation. Not everything revolves around religon.

Just because religion doesn't cause all the problems in the world, doesn't mean it hasn't caused a lot. And it doesn't have enough redeeming features for a net benefit.

Come again? and how does that differ from any other religon?

I never said religions that don't differ are any better, I've posted condemning Christians before. Other religions being wrong doesn't suggest I can't protest this one. And there's not too many other religions that currently actively support killing non believers in the name of thir ultimate god.

Easy. a lot of people (appears you too) see Islam as "Iran" or "afganistan" or "taliban", etc. All you can see is the extremism. However the majority of Muslims are not extremists, nor do they display or actively encourge the stuff that the *west* take offense at.

I feel I've been the same point throughout this post. Even if I did only see Islam as those countries & extremes(and if you read my posts on the "why is the west afraid of Islam?" you'll see I certainly do not) I have a right to criticise it(the extremists). IF I CRITICISE TERRORISTS IT DOESNT MEAN I'M CRITICISING ISLAM AS A WHOLE, STOP ASSUMING THATS WHAT I'M DOING., why are Muslims so paranoid about this?

There are around 15 or so muslims in the department I work (of about 60 or so people). Of that you would be hard pressed to point out half of that group in a line up, add to that only about 3-4 of them pray daily in work.

No reasonable human being would have a problem if all 15 did it. What's your point?

There are varying levels of Muslims in much the same way there are varying levels of Catholics in our society. One may claim to be more correct (eg. No condoms, no sex outside marriage, no abortion) doesn't mean that everyone who sees themselves as such shares the same traits

Again some elaboration on the relevence

Not sure what you are on about.

I was sarcastically pointing out that its completely obvious to everyone she's reading a script & she's not implying she's doing anything other.

Wibbs

Hobbes wrote:

It is rare that you will find an Atheist who doesn't blame religon for everything that has happened since the dawn of time. Of couse some of that is correct but tends to draw away from other factors of a situation. Not everything revolves around religon.

Agreed. Too many atheists lay all of the worlds woes at the feet of religion, while failing to see any good that may have come from it. In that way some atheists are as zealous as theists.

Come again? and how does that differ from any other religon?

There are differences. No other religion, even in extremis, instructs believers to subdue, enslave or kill non believers. Hell, non enlightenment, etc. yes. taxing, killing and enslaving, nope. No other religion divides the world into the non believers and believers with such practical clarity(house of peace, house of war) and calls for the faithful to bring all to the house of peace with force of arms, even as a last resort. No other religion has such clear instruction as to how to deal with non believers in Islamic society and reduce them to lesser citizens of such a nation. It's far more political in intent than other faiths from the outset. While others may have evolved such strategems over time, the original message is less conflict based.

There are varying levels of Muslims in much the same way there are varying levels of Catholics in our society. One may claim to be more correct (eg. No condoms, no sex outside marriage, no abortion) doesn't mean that everyone who sees themselves as such shares the same traits.

Agreed again. Sadly the extremists in this case seem more vocal and the non extremists less so. That seems to be the norm in such things.

Hobbes

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Just because religion doesn't cause all the problems in the world, doesn't mean it hasn't caused a lot. And it doesn't have enough redeeming features for a net benefit.

Just because it has caused a lot doesn't mean that it has a part in everything that goes on. For example Iraq. Currently the troubles going on there have very little to do with religon yet the media is forever trying to portray it as such.

I have a right to criticise it(the extremists). IF I CRITICISE TERRORISTS IT DOESNT MEAN I'M CRITICISING ISLAM AS A WHOLE, STOP ASSUMING THATS WHAT I'M DOING., why are Muslims so paranoid about this?

Because very few people make that distinction or don't point it out and you get crap like "omg why are they allowed a mosque in Ireland! Don't they know they chop off peoples hands" and so on.

Most of the fear is born out of ignorance of the whole.

Incidently the interview she is insulting the muslim religon, your agreeing, ergo you give the impression you are criticising Islam and not the terrorists.

No reasonable human being would have a problem if all 15 did it. What's your point?

My point is that most people (and certainly those so phobic) couldn't point out a Muslim in a crowd and yet I have seen peoples opinions change when they find out someone is a muslim. Its like watching someones expression when they are told the person they are talking to works for the Revenue commisioners.

Again some elaboration on the relevence

Do I need to repeat myself? The point is already made. There are varying levels of Muslims or what people see themselves as muslims. Much the same way as other religons. Yet most people only see the extremists.

I was sarcastically pointing out that its completely obvious to everyone she's reading a script & she's not implying she's doing anything other.

I am sure boards.ie members all thank you for that sarcasm.

Hobbes

Wibbs wrote:

No other religion, even in extremis, instructs believers to subdue, enslave or kill non believers.

I disagree. Quite a few religons do, it is just that civilisation in these areas has progressed beyond the parts of thier doctrine and we happily dance over those bits as if they don't exist.

The issue with some parts of the middle east are still in the middle ages when it comes to human rights.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Hobbes wrote:

Just because it has caused a lot doesn't mean that it has a part in everything that goes on. For example Iraq. Currently the troubles going on there have very little to do with religon yet the media is forever trying to portray it as such.

Why are you telling me this? And where did I contest it? Pointing out irrelevent faults in your critics explains why you're so edgy & inconsistant in your answers when you so rarely answer the questions I want you to answer.

Because very few people make that distinction or don't point it out and you get crap like "omg why are they allowed a mosque in Ireland! Don't they know they chop off peoples hands" and so on.

So why take their ignorance out on me? Why you feel the need to confirm the truth when I've done absoloutly nothing to suggest the average Muslim is bad\wrong\evil?

Most of the fear is born out of ignorance of the whole.

Not quite, my fear is born out of Islamic views on pre-marital sex, alcohol, drugs, homosexuality, masturbation, free speech(the kind that isnt governed by the good of the faith)

Incidently the interview she is insulting the muslim religon, your agreeing, ergo you give the impression you are criticising Islam and not the terrorists.

I constantly criticize Islam, it's as misguided as Christianity. I just never associated the average Muslim with terror & your responses implied I did. Why would you get so defensive? How can you expect people to take a faith seriously if it's members are paranoid everyone's out to get them?

My point is that most people (and certainly those so phobic) couldn't point out a Muslim in a crowd and yet I have seen peoples opinions change when they find out someone is a muslim. Its like watching someones expression when they are told the person they are talking to works for the Revenue commisioners.

Ever work with predominantly Catholic\Celtic supporting fellow employees? my experience was in a sports shop. When they find out the new guy's a Protestant they make jokes with each other, initially look for reasons to dislike him, then realise he's just a normal guy & forget about it. The ones who have difficulty are the ones who act is if they're expecting to be treated differently, generally with good intentions too.

Strangley enough happens to gay employees too.

A Muslim worked in the stockroom who got the same treatment but after a few weeks he was one of the most popular people working there. It happens but it's no big deal & lets face it a Christian in Pakistan would be treated the same.

Do I need to repeat myself? The point is already made. There are varying levels of Muslims or what people see themselves as muslims. Much the same way as other religons. Yet most people only see the extremists

I wanted to know why you were bringing it up considering the argument we were actually having.

Please answer directly to the questions that start with 'Why' & 'How'

Hobbes

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Pointing out irrelevent faults in your critics

So you are "the media", you need to stop taking things personally.

when you so rarely answer the questions I want you to answer.

I've said it before, you must of missed it. Despite what you believe I don't live my life to read every post you write (goes for everyone else). If there is something you require an answer from me so quickly for you can use the PM function of boards.

So why take their ignorance out on me?

Again you need to learn to stop taking things personally.

Why would you get so defensive? How can you expect people to take a faith seriously if it's members are paranoid everyone's out to get them?

I am not a Muslim.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Hobbes wrote:

So you are "the media", you need to stop taking things personally.

You made it personal when you said things about Athiests & implied I was stereotyping Muslims (As I recall was completely irrelevent to the point we were discussing)

I've said it before, you must of missed it. Despite what you believe I don't live my life to read every post you write (goes for everyone else). If there is something you require an answer from me so quickly for you can use the PM function of boards.

Just wanted confirmation on exactly what it is you're saying. If you want explanation of anything I've posted here I wouldnt see the point in discussing it anywhere else.

Again you need to learn to stop taking things personally.

See above.

Your the type of poster that annoys me on boards. Makes random critisisms about things you assume then when you're proven wrong you start trying to make a whole new point. Kind of defeats the purpose of a discussion board.