Positive Suicide - choice

McGinty

I stated leaving euthanasia aside, so that the arguement would not go into euthansia, this is not a discussion for this particular forum, I wanted to stay on topic.

The original poster stated 'positive suicide', if one looks at the definition of the word positive in the dictionary it states "confident, sure, constructive, ect", also when one associates the word positive, it has a feel good factor to, and is the opposite to negative, I personally cannot see how positive and suicide can go hand in hand. I cannot be truly sure if a person who commits suicide is in a mental hell, but I am making a calculated guess, ask yourself this, do you really want to die, and if you wanted to attempt to die, how easy would it come to you? I don' think it would come that easily. In order to commit suicide, you have to override a very powerful desire to live, which to me backs up the arguement that one has to be in a mental hell in order to desire death.

Please enlighten me as to why anyone would want to die for any other reason?

The_Minister

Given McGinty's strong reaction I should clarify why I asked this.
One day while innocently searching the web I came across a suicide as choice site. Curious I looked at the forums. In it a young girl announced that she was going to killl herself, in a dignified and elequant way. Her discussion of this had preceeded my arrival by several days, with other posters questioning her and making sure that she was positive. Then, they wished her well. I detected no "insanity" or deranged thinking in the girl, nor malice in the posters. I was not sure what to make of it.
I have been unable to rediscover this site (I was at university so I have no history logs) but it made me curious on the subject. I'm sorry if McGinty has personal feelings or experience with this, but I feel it is an important question: about the limits of choice.

McGinty

Thank you for your post firespinner, my strong feelings re: this is that my sister committed suicide last year, and I feel at times there can be a glorification of it, I am not taking away the pain of what a person feels at that time, but similar to what read in that post firespinner, a woman who was a reporter for the Independent decided to end her life, she waited until after Christmas, she asked her family not to mourn her loss, etc, etc. However, and this is my reaction, I was disguisted in terms of her cold rational towards her death, what right has she to tell her family not to mourn. Those left behind when a loved one kills themselves is horrific, we are left with the crap and the awful agony of getting through the days without them. My sister never left a note, I personally belive that through her heartache she tried her best to live but it got too much, and in a night of madness she ended her life, in one sense her approach to the way she died was incredibly rational, Im sorry but Im not going into details here, but also I feel that mentally and spiritually she was in agony, I just cannot understand why would anyone would want to end their life if they were not in mental or physical agony.

McGinty

Just one other question, what is dignified and eloquent in her decision to die?

Is it not a cop out? Is it not a refusal to stand and face the harshness and pain of life, and to be honest, I would say this to my sister, life is hard, it is difficult and yet most of us at one time or another say **** it throw in the towel, I;ve had enough, but you keep going, why I am not sure, but we do.

Freelancer

Firespinner wrote:

Given McGinty's strong reaction I should clarify why I asked this.
One day while innocently searching the web I came across a suicide as choice site. Curious I looked at the forums. In it a young girl announced that she was going to killl herself, in a dignified and elequant way. Her discussion of this had preceeded my arrival by several days, with other posters questioning her and making sure that she was positive. Then, they wished her well. I detected no "insanity" or deranged thinking in the girl, nor malice in the posters. I was not sure what to make of it.
.

AH we'll add psychology to the growing list of skills Firespinner is displaying*

*Last tally, Gay sexual idenity, Crop cycles in the US, sexual pyschology and idenity........

I must be curious to wonder how you can be "innocently" searching the web for such a site, and how you could forget what kind of site featured such disturbing behaviour.

Or how you could tell at a glance what her mental state was, after such a composed post. Or if it was faked. Or that invariably many people who decide to commit suicide after a period of depression or anexity often take on a more relaxed or upbeat tone, and people around them begin to think "they've turned a corner" when instead they've sunk so far into depression that the release of making a decision to kill themselves allows them to free themselves, and gives the illusion of lightness and improved state of mind to those who care about them.

rubadub

McGinty wrote:

Just one other question, what is dignified and eloquent in her decision to die?

I think he was referring to her post being articulate and seemingly reasoned, thought out, rather than a spur of the moment blunt posting

McGinty wrote:

Is it not a cop out? Is it not a refusal to stand and face the harshness and pain of life

It is, thats why I was questioning the definitions of euthanasia, people could be in physical or emotional/mental pain. They may consider what they did to be euthanasia while others would not.

The_Minister

Freelancer wrote:

AH we'll add psychology to the growing list of skills Firespinner is displaying.

Stuff it freelancer, you know what I meant. The way the posts were written, and the words used tell lots.

Freelancer wrote:

I must be curious to wonder how you can be "innocently" searching the web for such a site, and how you could forget what kind of site featured such disturbing behaviour..

I followed a link from some random site. I was not looking for the site, I merely came upon it. Due to this I did not note the websites address. The website was not disturbing, it was decorated in light colours and did not have any ominous symbols arond the place.

Freelancer wrote:

Or how you could tell at a glance what her mental state was, after such a composed post. Or if it was faked.

You know what I meant don't be a troll.
Even if it was faked, this was one of many of these people who were posting.

coffee_cake

McGinty wrote:

Just one other question, what is dignified and eloquent in her decision to die?

Is it not a cop out? Is it not a refusal to stand and face the harshness and pain of life, and to be honest, I would say this to my sister, life is hard, it is difficult and yet most of us at one time or another say **** it throw in the towel, I;ve had enough, but you keep going, why I am not sure, but we do.

Unfortunately there's usually no rationality behind it.
I'm going to have to answer no to the OP's question - I don't think it can ever be rational. Perhaps it can seem rational in their minds, such as -everyone dislikes me, I'm a burden on my family, they'd be better off without me, etc - but I'm going to say no. Perhaps there are exceptions, but I doubt it.

You say there's sometimes a glorification of it? So many people I've come across who have expressed an opinion on the issue say it's stupid and cowardly. Others say one cannot judge them on a rational basis, since they're clearly not.

Almost by definition I'd say not, since surely noone in a rational mind could overcome the basic instinct to survive.

McGinty

Freelancer, I would concur that although the term euthanisia is bandied about for aged or ill people to decide to end their lives, personally I class it as suicide, but I recognise that other people don't see it that way and call it euthansia, it is such a contenious subject. Personally I guess most suicides are relatively short lived decisions, be it a day or a month, euthanisa's or assisted suicides tend to be drawn out over longer periods be it weeks or months, but both are cop outs, it is taking the control of your life in your own hands, and whilst you love the person, you hate the action and you hope they are in peace, personally I condem the action, not the person.

Freelancer

Firespinner wrote:

Stuff it freelancer, you know what I meant. The way the posts were written, and the words used tell lots.

"she" used words did "she'? Wow thankfully we're able to rely on your expert insight into what the subtext of what those words meant.

I followed a link from some random site. I was not looking for the site, I merely came upon it. Due to this I did not note the websites address. The website was not disturbing, it was decorated in light colours and did not have any ominous symbols arond the place.

You followed the pretty lights to some pretty website. Sure......

You know what I meant don't be a troll.
Even if it was faked, this was one of many of these people who were posting.

Uh, and huh.


The fact that you've been incapable of elaborating upon her or anyone elses reasons beyond the most vague terms isn't at all suspicious. No siree bob.

nesf

Freelancer wrote:

I'm sorry what is your point?
If you're day to day unhappy to the point you want to end your life you are suffering from depression. End of discussion.

Not necessarily. The world is nowhere near as black and white as that and I think that the whole point of discussions such as these is to open people's eyes enough so that they can stop seeing in monochrome. To just label such behaviour so easily is truly pointless. One could be unhappy for weeks on end, but could be perfectly healthy mentally. Just being unhappy != depression.


As for the OP. Suicide is demonised and shunned by our culture. Someone who is suicidal is viewed as selfish, insane etc. This is not always the case. It will always be an extremely emotive issue as shown above, but that should not cloud the issue.

Do we have rights as people to control our bodies to the extent that we may choose to either harm or kill ourselves? Or are our personal liberities automatically lost in this instance? It's an extremely complex issue. There are strong arguments for both sides and whether you consider someone who is suicidal as "sane" or "able to think for themselves" is not a simple yes or no question.

woody

Nobody has the right to take there life even their own...

The only situation I would condone it, is in a battle situation where a posistion is going to be over run or you know you are going to be tortured to death, or taking your own life to save others where information would kill many (maybe not suicide) but a healthy or un healthy person should not comtemplate it as there can always be options.

But killing yourself because your sick or depressed etc is a selfish way out, I have been on a boat crew whilst part of the navy divers section and we recovered bodies a lot in the Shannon around Athlone and at first you would feel sorry but after a few more bodies you come to realise these people are selfish B*stards and dont think about the stigma attached to the family or the despair and destruction it causes...

So No unless in the first situation...

nesf

woody wrote:

Nobody has the right to take there life even their own...

That's a very broad statement to make. Surely there is a huge distinction between taking another person's life and taking one's own? And if taking life is wrong, how is it justified then to fight in a war as per you example?

coffee_cake

woody wrote:

Nobody has the right to take there life even their own...

The only situation I would condone it, is in a battle situation where a posistion is going to be over run or you know you are going to be tortured to death, or taking your own life to save others where information would kill many (maybe not suicide) but a healthy or un healthy person should not comtemplate it as there can always be options.

But killing yourself because your sick or depressed etc is a selfish way out, I have been on a boat crew whilst part of the navy divers section and we recovered bodies a lot in the Shannon around Athlone and at first you would feel sorry but after a few more bodies you come to realise these people are selfish B*stards and dont think about the stigma attached to the family or the despair and destruction it causes...

So No unless in the first situation...

Yes, because judging people by assuming they're in a rational state of mind when they're clearly not is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
They need help, not to be told they're selfish.
Their families? What about them? They're suffering so much to the extent they're going against their natural life-preserving instinct, and the first thing they should think about is the neighbours gossiping?
Cop on. Talk to some real live depressed people instead of looking at corpses.

Dudess

bluewolf wrote:

Yes, because judging people by assuming they're in a rational state of mind when they're clearly not is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
They need help, not to be told they're selfish.
Their families? What about them? They're suffering so much to the extent they're going against their natural life-preserving instinct, and the first thing they should think about is the neighbours gossiping?
Cop on. Talk to some real live depressed people instead of looking at corpses.

Yeah, the fact that it goes against one of our most fundamental instincts - if not THE most fundamental instinct - makes it far more complex than simply an act of selfishness. Technically there is a degree of selfishness, because it is all about the self, but there are people with depression so severe that they have to take medication in double figures every day just to get by. Even then, they're barely hanging on. Of course suicide is not the answer, but sometimes people are so messed up, they truly see no other way out.