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Positive Suicide - choice

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  • 10-03-2006 1:05pm
    #1
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭


    I'm just wondering what people think about this? Can anyone ever make the sane and rational choice to end their life? We have all heard about those websites that promote suicide as a healthy (excuse pun) option. Indeed I have read that the Ancient Romans favoured suicide when there was no enjoyment to be had in life, and that the Japanese were traditionally pro-suicide.
    In this I am excluding suicide due to terminal illness and focusing solely on suicide as an escape from life.


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    #2
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,376 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Where are these websites?
    I always find it strange that people would think there is no option. If I was in crazy debt or something I would just skip the country and start a new. Go live on a beach in south america with a few grand in the back pocket, there is always an alternative. Get a one-way ticket to the US and become an illegal worker or something.


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    #3
    Ag marbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Ag marbh


    Firespinner wrote:
    I'm just wondering what people think about this? Can anyone ever make the sane and rational choice to end their life? We have all heard about those websites that promote suicide as a healthy (excuse pun) option. Indeed I have read that the Ancient Romans favoured suicide when there was no enjoyment to be had in life, and that the Japanese were traditionally pro-suicide.
    In this I am excluding suicide due to terminal illness and focusing solely on suicide as an escape from life.

    I don't think it's positive for a healthy person to commit suicide because they felt that no enjoyment was to be had in life. Change lifestyle, assess the bad around you and try make something positive out of it, get active in making a different and experience different cultures. There is nothing positive about becoming a statistic.


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    #4
    Ag marbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Ag marbh


    rubadub wrote:
    Where are these websites?

    http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/


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    #5
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    But, is it a decision they could rationally make?

    (I don't want to provide links to the websites because I don't want to promote them but if you really want I can find one or two)

    Edit: Too late :)


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    #6
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Firespinner wrote:
    In this I am excluding suicide due to terminal illness and focusing solely on suicide as an escape from life.
    I'm confused as to what the distinction between 'positive' and 'regular' suicide. Short of committing suicide when life is still good, what's the difference? Why would someone commit suicide if life still gave enjoyment? And if life had nothing to offer what's positive about ending it?

    Sure, it's a healthy option for those who don't want to have to care for their elderly.


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    #7
    Ag marbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Ag marbh


    Firespinner wrote:
    But, is it a decision they could rationally make?

    Of course it is. There are always alternatives.


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    #8
    Ag marbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Ag marbh


    Firespinner wrote:
    Damn. I can't find the website that I was looking for. It wasn't as twisted as Ag Meadh's. It must have shut down. It was a serious one where people debated suicide etc.

    PM that site to me if you come across it again.


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    #9
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Damn. I can't find the website that I was looking for. It wasn't as twisted as Ag Meadh's. It must have shut down. It was a serious one where people debated suicide etc.


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    #10
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    The Atheist wrote:
    I'm confused as to what the distinction between 'positive' and 'regular' suicide. Short of committing suicide when life is still good, what's the difference? Why would someone commit suicide if life still gave enjoyment? And if life had nothing to offer what's positive about ending it?

    Sure, it's a healthy option for those who don't want to have to care for their elderly.

    The phrase means that it is a decision that they can make with "good feelings" and that they are not too mentally clouded by depression to make the decision.


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    #11
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Firespinner wrote:
    The phrase means that it is a decision that they can make with "good feelings" and that they are not too mentally clouded by depression to make the decision.
    But why would someone commit suicide with good feelings? It just seems like a contradiction. You end your life for a 'reason' - either it is completely joyless with no prospect of change, or you are pre-empting a painful or degrading death. And neither of these fall under your definition of positive suicide.


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    #12
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    The Atheist wrote:
    But why would someone commit suicide with good feelings? It just seems like a contradiction. You end your life for a 'reason' - either it is completely joyless with no prospect of change, or you are pre-empting a painful or degrading death. And neither of these fall under your definition of positive suicide.

    I am not being clear enough - I apologise. Many people feel that suicides are irrational, one person I know said that considering the pain caused by suicide to their families no-one in their right mind would commit it. I suppose what I mean is can a person rationally decide that death would suit them better than life.


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    #13
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Firespinner wrote:
    I suppose what I mean is can a person rationally decide that death would suit them better than life.
    Ah I'm seeing clearer.
    So it's more about the frame of mind, than the actual situation of the victim.
    Rational does not equate with positive though. The circumstances behind any suicide preclude any positive element for me.


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    #14
    Ag marbh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭Ag marbh


    Being in somewhere like the Bangkok hilton or a really bad situation when my human rights are degraded to such a point I may consider ending it. In such situations I think it's rational to think no life would be better than the one you currently live.


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    #15
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Ag marbh wrote:
    Being in somewhere like the Bangkok hilton or a really bad situation when my human rights are degraded to such a point I may consider ending it. In such situations I think it's rational to think no life would be better than the one you currently live.
    You're speaking of torture or illness. What if you are healthy but just day-to-day unhappy?


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    #16
    Freelancer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 769 ✭✭✭Freelancer


    Firespinner wrote:
    You're speaking of torture or illness. What if you are healthy but just day-to-day unhappy?

    I'm sorry what is your point?
    If you're day to day unhappy to the point you want to end your life you are suffering from depression. End of discussion.


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    #17
    jsr
    Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭jsr


    There is a huge amount of death by self determination in Japan. Web sites given over to meeting like minded people in case you want die but don't want to meet the end alone, even a book on how to do it with ratings for things like pain level, damage to your mortal remains and trouble caused to others eg jumpin in front of a train.....
    Im sure sane people have killed themselves, they could be disillusioned but that doesn't make them insane or clinically depressed. Just wondering if a person kills themselves, is their will automatically declaired nul and voil? This would be a good sign of the laws standing on the issue(insane being legal state and not a clinical/medical one)


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    #18
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Freelancer wrote:
    I'm sorry what is your point?
    If you're day to day unhappy to the point you want to end your life you are suffering from depression. End of discussion.
    Maybe they have nothing to be happy about? Even if they are depressed is depression enough for their decision to be placed solely on depression or are they still cognitively able to reach this decision.


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    #19
    Freelancer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 769 ✭✭✭Freelancer


    Firespinner wrote:
    Maybe they have nothing to be happy about? Even if they are depressed is depression enough for their decision to be placed solely on depression or are they still cognitively able to reach this decision.

    YES!!!!!!!!!

    Depression is a recognised mental illness.

    I mean are you honestly saying that in a situation were someone doesn't want to do anything with there life, no ambition no interaction with other people, not interesting in anything, is really in emotional place to make a rational decision to end their own life.

    You really need to explain this alot better.


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    #20
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Freelancer wrote:
    YES!!!!!!!!!

    Depression is a recognised mental illness.

    I mean are you honestly saying that in a situation were someone doesn't want to do anything with there life, no ambition no interaction with other people, not interesting in anything, is really in emotional place to make a rational decision to end their own life.

    You really need to explain this alot better.
    Thats what I'm asking. Can suicide ever be a rational decision or is it always due to clouded minds?


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    #21
    chern0byl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 541 ✭✭✭chern0byl


    rubadub wrote:
    there is always an alternative


    Thats easy to say when you are not in that persons shoes. You honestly cannot know what someone else is experiencing and you have to accept the fact that sometimes there is no solution and things can really be that dark.


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    #22
    rsynnott
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭rsynnott


    There's certainly an argument for voluntary euthanasia for those with painful incurable diseases and so forth.


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    #23
    FranknFurter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,215 ✭✭✭FranknFurter


    When it comes to illness, then definitely, yes, it should be an option, or at the very least, assisted suicide should be de-criminalised (and have practical, safe, accessable proceedures).

    But the question you are asking dosent really make sense as a question. I dont think I've ever heard of a happy person who wants to end it. The human mind is not designed to work that way.
    If somone wants to end it for no reason other than "lifes boring" there is somthing wrong on a deeper level imho.

    b


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    #24
    seanybiker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,898 ✭✭✭✭seanybiker


    I'm completly sane and I attempted it before. I am sane but other problems tdo come into effect. for example, depression can be thought of as insane by some people but not by others.Luckily I dont suffer from depression but I did try suicide one night and luckily I was caught trying it.

    Im not going to get into it, but I am more or less a very happy person. I got great friends and a class family but you never know what is going on in someones head. Its not really a topic you can talk about to tell you the truth there are to many questions about it.

    A fella that lived up the road from me killed himself, but it turned out he didnt kill himself it was some strange sort of painful masterbation that he was doing . Im not sure what the name of it is but its more or less choking oneself (pardon the pun) and he done it to long. Is that suicide? I think its a gamble imho meself.


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    #25
    Shabadu
    Registered Users Posts: 7,659 ✭✭✭Shabadu


    seanybiker wrote:
    I'm completly sane and I attempted it before. I am sane but other problems tdo come into effect. for example, depression can be thought of as insane by some people but not by others.Luckily I dont suffer from depression but I did try suicide one night and luckily I was caught trying it.

    Im not going to get into it, but I am more or less a very happy person. I got great friends and a class family but you never know what is going on in someones head. Its not really a topic you can talk about to tell you the truth there are to many questions about it.

    A fella that lived up the road from me killed himself, but it turned out he didnt kill himself it was some strange sort of painful masterbation that he was doing . Im not sure what the name of it is but its more or less choking oneself (pardon the pun) and he done it to long. Is that suicide? I think its a gamble imho meself.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-erotic_asphyxiation

    Risky, yes, but not a suicide method.


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    #26
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    seanybiker wrote:
    A fella that lived up the road from me killed himself, but it turned out he didnt kill himself it was some strange sort of painful masterbation that he was doing . Im not sure what the name of it is but its more or less choking oneself (pardon the pun) and he done it to long. Is that suicide? I think its a gamble imho meself.
    Read guts by Chuck Polonik:)


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    #27
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,376 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    chern0byl wrote:
    Thats easy to say when you are not in that persons shoes. You honestly cannot know what someone else is experiencing and you have to accept the fact that sometimes there is no solution and things can really be that dark.
    what I mean by always an alternative is that if somebody wants to end their life then they can do so without killing their body, just kill their "life". i.e. drop everything and leave. Plenty of people seem to do this, there are millions of missing persons out there, some are of course murders, but many are people ditching their previous life and starting anew.


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    #28
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Firespinner wrote:
    Thats what I'm asking. Can suicide ever be a rational decision or is it always due to clouded minds?
    I would have to say yes, but, it is an extreme thing to do.
    Some people do not believe in an afterlife and some do. I can think of rational reasons to kill yourself on both counts, well, rational for some people.


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    #29
    McGinty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 829 ✭✭✭McGinty


    Leaving aside euthansia, what kind of a question is that? To be honest the cold clinical attitude to most of the posters makes me sick.

    Most you ****wits are forgetting one thing in your ****ing rational discussion of suicide, and that is the desire to live,

    The person that feels suicidal is in hell, a mental hell, and that is why they end their lives. The average, relatively happy person does not want to die. The extremely unhappy, depressed person does not want to live. You all talk about suicide as if it is your god given right to do so, and yes you can end your life, and do so by all mean, but ****in degraded it for us who have lost loved ones to suicide. Don't make it into a rational act, because its not a rational act. Nature drives us to live not to do, it is only the extreme, irrational and exceptional unhappy person that commits suicide. You asseholes talk about it as if it is a life choice, and if I get banned for this, your all talking complete and utter ****, get a ****ing life.


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    #30
    McGinty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 829 ✭✭✭McGinty


    to add this thread makes me so angry that if I saw the original poster I want to slap you silly, and I would enjoy it. You have no idea the agony of those left behind when their loved ones die through suicide. Do you know words cannot express how I feel right now.


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    #31
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,376 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    McGinty wrote:
    what kind of a question is that?
    I think it is to question if...
    McGinty wrote:
    The person that feels suicidal is in hell, a mental hell, and that is why they end their lives. The average, relatively happy person does not want to die. The extremely unhappy, depressed person does not want to live.
    ...if that is true in 100% of cases, and for people to offer any other reason that people could possibly do it other than the reasons you insist are the ONLY possible ones.

    McGinty wrote:
    Leaving aside euthansia
    So do you find euthansia acceptable. There are obviously varying degrees of it, what defines terminally ill 1 year to live, 20? What amount of pain does somebody have to be in to be allowed it be seen as euthanasia rather than suicide?


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