Positive Suicide - choice

The_Minister

I'm just wondering what people think about this? Can anyone ever make the sane and rational choice to end their life? We have all heard about those websites that promote suicide as a healthy (excuse pun) option. Indeed I have read that the Ancient Romans favoured suicide when there was no enjoyment to be had in life, and that the Japanese were traditionally pro-suicide.
In this I am excluding suicide due to terminal illness and focusing solely on suicide as an escape from life.

rubadub

Where are these websites?
I always find it strange that people would think there is no option. If I was in crazy debt or something I would just skip the country and start a new. Go live on a beach in south america with a few grand in the back pocket, there is always an alternative. Get a one-way ticket to the US and become an illegal worker or something.

Ag marbh

Firespinner wrote:

I'm just wondering what people think about this? Can anyone ever make the sane and rational choice to end their life? We have all heard about those websites that promote suicide as a healthy (excuse pun) option. Indeed I have read that the Ancient Romans favoured suicide when there was no enjoyment to be had in life, and that the Japanese were traditionally pro-suicide.
In this I am excluding suicide due to terminal illness and focusing solely on suicide as an escape from life.

I don't think it's positive for a healthy person to commit suicide because they felt that no enjoyment was to be had in life. Change lifestyle, assess the bad around you and try make something positive out of it, get active in making a different and experience different cultures. There is nothing positive about becoming a statistic.

Ag marbh

rubadub wrote:

Where are these websites?

http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/

The_Minister

But, is it a decision they could rationally make?

(I don't want to provide links to the websites because I don't want to promote them but if you really want I can find one or two)

Edit: Too late

Dades

Firespinner wrote:

In this I am excluding suicide due to terminal illness and focusing solely on suicide as an escape from life.

I'm confused as to what the distinction between 'positive' and 'regular' suicide. Short of committing suicide when life is still good, what's the difference? Why would someone commit suicide if life still gave enjoyment? And if life had nothing to offer what's positive about ending it?

Sure, it's a healthy option for those who don't want to have to care for their elderly.

Ag marbh

Firespinner wrote:

But, is it a decision they could rationally make?

Of course it is. There are always alternatives.

Ag marbh

Firespinner wrote:

Damn. I can't find the website that I was looking for. It wasn't as twisted as Ag Meadh's. It must have shut down. It was a serious one where people debated suicide etc.

PM that site to me if you come across it again.

The_Minister

Damn. I can't find the website that I was looking for. It wasn't as twisted as Ag Meadh's. It must have shut down. It was a serious one where people debated suicide etc.

The_Minister

The Atheist wrote:

I'm confused as to what the distinction between 'positive' and 'regular' suicide. Short of committing suicide when life is still good, what's the difference? Why would someone commit suicide if life still gave enjoyment? And if life had nothing to offer what's positive about ending it?

Sure, it's a healthy option for those who don't want to have to care for their elderly.

The phrase means that it is a decision that they can make with "good feelings" and that they are not too mentally clouded by depression to make the decision.

Dades

Firespinner wrote:

The phrase means that it is a decision that they can make with "good feelings" and that they are not too mentally clouded by depression to make the decision.

But why would someone commit suicide with good feelings? It just seems like a contradiction. You end your life for a 'reason' - either it is completely joyless with no prospect of change, or you are pre-empting a painful or degrading death. And neither of these fall under your definition of positive suicide.

The_Minister

The Atheist wrote:

But why would someone commit suicide with good feelings? It just seems like a contradiction. You end your life for a 'reason' - either it is completely joyless with no prospect of change, or you are pre-empting a painful or degrading death. And neither of these fall under your definition of positive suicide.

I am not being clear enough - I apologise. Many people feel that suicides are irrational, one person I know said that considering the pain caused by suicide to their families no-one in their right mind would commit it. I suppose what I mean is can a person rationally decide that death would suit them better than life.

Dades

Firespinner wrote:

I suppose what I mean is can a person rationally decide that death would suit them better than life.

Ah I'm seeing clearer.
So it's more about the frame of mind, than the actual situation of the victim.
Rational does not equate with positive though. The circumstances behind any suicide preclude any positive element for me.

Ag marbh

Being in somewhere like the Bangkok hilton or a really bad situation when my human rights are degraded to such a point I may consider ending it. In such situations I think it's rational to think no life would be better than the one you currently live.

The_Minister

Ag marbh wrote:

Being in somewhere like the Bangkok hilton or a really bad situation when my human rights are degraded to such a point I may consider ending it. In such situations I think it's rational to think no life would be better than the one you currently live.

You're speaking of torture or illness. What if you are healthy but just day-to-day unhappy?

Freelancer

Firespinner wrote:

You're speaking of torture or illness. What if you are healthy but just day-to-day unhappy?

I'm sorry what is your point?
If you're day to day unhappy to the point you want to end your life you are suffering from depression. End of discussion.

jsr

There is a huge amount of death by self determination in Japan. Web sites given over to meeting like minded people in case you want die but don't want to meet the end alone, even a book on how to do it with ratings for things like pain level, damage to your mortal remains and trouble caused to others eg jumpin in front of a train.....
Im sure sane people have killed themselves, they could be disillusioned but that doesn't make them insane or clinically depressed. Just wondering if a person kills themselves, is their will automatically declaired nul and voil? This would be a good sign of the laws standing on the issue(insane being legal state and not a clinical/medical one)

The_Minister

Freelancer wrote:

I'm sorry what is your point?
If you're day to day unhappy to the point you want to end your life you are suffering from depression. End of discussion.

Maybe they have nothing to be happy about? Even if they are depressed is depression enough for their decision to be placed solely on depression or are they still cognitively able to reach this decision.

Freelancer

Firespinner wrote:

Maybe they have nothing to be happy about? Even if they are depressed is depression enough for their decision to be placed solely on depression or are they still cognitively able to reach this decision.

YES!!!!!!!!!

Depression is a recognised mental illness.

I mean are you honestly saying that in a situation were someone doesn't want to do anything with there life, no ambition no interaction with other people, not interesting in anything, is really in emotional place to make a rational decision to end their own life.

You really need to explain this alot better.

The_Minister

Freelancer wrote:

YES!!!!!!!!!

Depression is a recognised mental illness.

I mean are you honestly saying that in a situation were someone doesn't want to do anything with there life, no ambition no interaction with other people, not interesting in anything, is really in emotional place to make a rational decision to end their own life.

You really need to explain this alot better.

Thats what I'm asking. Can suicide ever be a rational decision or is it always due to clouded minds?

chern0byl

rubadub wrote:

there is always an alternative

Thats easy to say when you are not in that persons shoes. You honestly cannot know what someone else is experiencing and you have to accept the fact that sometimes there is no solution and things can really be that dark.

rsynnott

There's certainly an argument for voluntary euthanasia for those with painful incurable diseases and so forth.

FranknFurter

When it comes to illness, then definitely, yes, it should be an option, or at the very least, assisted suicide should be de-criminalised (and have practical, safe, accessable proceedures).

But the question you are asking dosent really make sense as a question. I dont think I've ever heard of a happy person who wants to end it. The human mind is not designed to work that way.
If somone wants to end it for no reason other than "lifes boring" there is somthing wrong on a deeper level imho.

b

seanybiker

I'm completly sane and I attempted it before. I am sane but other problems tdo come into effect. for example, depression can be thought of as insane by some people but not by others.Luckily I dont suffer from depression but I did try suicide one night and luckily I was caught trying it.

Im not going to get into it, but I am more or less a very happy person. I got great friends and a class family but you never know what is going on in someones head. Its not really a topic you can talk about to tell you the truth there are to many questions about it.

A fella that lived up the road from me killed himself, but it turned out he didnt kill himself it was some strange sort of painful masterbation that he was doing . Im not sure what the name of it is but its more or less choking oneself (pardon the pun) and he done it to long. Is that suicide? I think its a gamble imho meself.

Shabadu

seanybiker wrote:

I'm completly sane and I attempted it before. I am sane but other problems tdo come into effect. for example, depression can be thought of as insane by some people but not by others.Luckily I dont suffer from depression but I did try suicide one night and luckily I was caught trying it.

Im not going to get into it, but I am more or less a very happy person. I got great friends and a class family but you never know what is going on in someones head. Its not really a topic you can talk about to tell you the truth there are to many questions about it.

A fella that lived up the road from me killed himself, but it turned out he didnt kill himself it was some strange sort of painful masterbation that he was doing . Im not sure what the name of it is but its more or less choking oneself (pardon the pun) and he done it to long. Is that suicide? I think its a gamble imho meself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-erotic_asphyxiation

Risky, yes, but not a suicide method.

The_Minister

seanybiker wrote:

A fella that lived up the road from me killed himself, but it turned out he didnt kill himself it was some strange sort of painful masterbation that he was doing . Im not sure what the name of it is but its more or less choking oneself (pardon the pun) and he done it to long. Is that suicide? I think its a gamble imho meself.

Read guts by Chuck Polonik:)

rubadub

chern0byl wrote:

Thats easy to say when you are not in that persons shoes. You honestly cannot know what someone else is experiencing and you have to accept the fact that sometimes there is no solution and things can really be that dark.

what I mean by always an alternative is that if somebody wants to end their life then they can do so without killing their body, just kill their "life". i.e. drop everything and leave. Plenty of people seem to do this, there are millions of missing persons out there, some are of course murders, but many are people ditching their previous life and starting anew.

Tar.Aldarion

Firespinner wrote:

Thats what I'm asking. Can suicide ever be a rational decision or is it always due to clouded minds?

I would have to say yes, but, it is an extreme thing to do.
Some people do not believe in an afterlife and some do. I can think of rational reasons to kill yourself on both counts, well, rational for some people.

McGinty

Leaving aside euthansia, what kind of a question is that? To be honest the cold clinical attitude to most of the posters makes me sick.

Most you ****wits are forgetting one thing in your ****ing rational discussion of suicide, and that is the desire to live,

The person that feels suicidal is in hell, a mental hell, and that is why they end their lives. The average, relatively happy person does not want to die. The extremely unhappy, depressed person does not want to live. You all talk about suicide as if it is your god given right to do so, and yes you can end your life, and do so by all mean, but ****in degraded it for us who have lost loved ones to suicide. Don't make it into a rational act, because its not a rational act. Nature drives us to live not to do, it is only the extreme, irrational and exceptional unhappy person that commits suicide. You asseholes talk about it as if it is a life choice, and if I get banned for this, your all talking complete and utter ****, get a ****ing life.

McGinty

to add this thread makes me so angry that if I saw the original poster I want to slap you silly, and I would enjoy it. You have no idea the agony of those left behind when their loved ones die through suicide. Do you know words cannot express how I feel right now.

rubadub

McGinty wrote:

what kind of a question is that?

I think it is to question if...

McGinty wrote:

The person that feels suicidal is in hell, a mental hell, and that is why they end their lives. The average, relatively happy person does not want to die. The extremely unhappy, depressed person does not want to live.

...if that is true in 100% of cases, and for people to offer any other reason that people could possibly do it other than the reasons you insist are the ONLY possible ones.

McGinty wrote:

Leaving aside euthansia

So do you find euthansia acceptable. There are obviously varying degrees of it, what defines terminally ill 1 year to live, 20? What amount of pain does somebody have to be in to be allowed it be seen as euthanasia rather than suicide?

McGinty

I stated leaving euthanasia aside, so that the arguement would not go into euthansia, this is not a discussion for this particular forum, I wanted to stay on topic.

The original poster stated 'positive suicide', if one looks at the definition of the word positive in the dictionary it states "confident, sure, constructive, ect", also when one associates the word positive, it has a feel good factor to, and is the opposite to negative, I personally cannot see how positive and suicide can go hand in hand. I cannot be truly sure if a person who commits suicide is in a mental hell, but I am making a calculated guess, ask yourself this, do you really want to die, and if you wanted to attempt to die, how easy would it come to you? I don' think it would come that easily. In order to commit suicide, you have to override a very powerful desire to live, which to me backs up the arguement that one has to be in a mental hell in order to desire death.

Please enlighten me as to why anyone would want to die for any other reason?

The_Minister

Given McGinty's strong reaction I should clarify why I asked this.
One day while innocently searching the web I came across a suicide as choice site. Curious I looked at the forums. In it a young girl announced that she was going to killl herself, in a dignified and elequant way. Her discussion of this had preceeded my arrival by several days, with other posters questioning her and making sure that she was positive. Then, they wished her well. I detected no "insanity" or deranged thinking in the girl, nor malice in the posters. I was not sure what to make of it.
I have been unable to rediscover this site (I was at university so I have no history logs) but it made me curious on the subject. I'm sorry if McGinty has personal feelings or experience with this, but I feel it is an important question: about the limits of choice.

McGinty

Thank you for your post firespinner, my strong feelings re: this is that my sister committed suicide last year, and I feel at times there can be a glorification of it, I am not taking away the pain of what a person feels at that time, but similar to what read in that post firespinner, a woman who was a reporter for the Independent decided to end her life, she waited until after Christmas, she asked her family not to mourn her loss, etc, etc. However, and this is my reaction, I was disguisted in terms of her cold rational towards her death, what right has she to tell her family not to mourn. Those left behind when a loved one kills themselves is horrific, we are left with the crap and the awful agony of getting through the days without them. My sister never left a note, I personally belive that through her heartache she tried her best to live but it got too much, and in a night of madness she ended her life, in one sense her approach to the way she died was incredibly rational, Im sorry but Im not going into details here, but also I feel that mentally and spiritually she was in agony, I just cannot understand why would anyone would want to end their life if they were not in mental or physical agony.

McGinty

Just one other question, what is dignified and eloquent in her decision to die?

Is it not a cop out? Is it not a refusal to stand and face the harshness and pain of life, and to be honest, I would say this to my sister, life is hard, it is difficult and yet most of us at one time or another say **** it throw in the towel, I;ve had enough, but you keep going, why I am not sure, but we do.

Freelancer

Firespinner wrote:

Given McGinty's strong reaction I should clarify why I asked this.
One day while innocently searching the web I came across a suicide as choice site. Curious I looked at the forums. In it a young girl announced that she was going to killl herself, in a dignified and elequant way. Her discussion of this had preceeded my arrival by several days, with other posters questioning her and making sure that she was positive. Then, they wished her well. I detected no "insanity" or deranged thinking in the girl, nor malice in the posters. I was not sure what to make of it.
.

AH we'll add psychology to the growing list of skills Firespinner is displaying*

*Last tally, Gay sexual idenity, Crop cycles in the US, sexual pyschology and idenity........

I must be curious to wonder how you can be "innocently" searching the web for such a site, and how you could forget what kind of site featured such disturbing behaviour.

Or how you could tell at a glance what her mental state was, after such a composed post. Or if it was faked. Or that invariably many people who decide to commit suicide after a period of depression or anexity often take on a more relaxed or upbeat tone, and people around them begin to think "they've turned a corner" when instead they've sunk so far into depression that the release of making a decision to kill themselves allows them to free themselves, and gives the illusion of lightness and improved state of mind to those who care about them.

rubadub

McGinty wrote:

Just one other question, what is dignified and eloquent in her decision to die?

I think he was referring to her post being articulate and seemingly reasoned, thought out, rather than a spur of the moment blunt posting

McGinty wrote:

Is it not a cop out? Is it not a refusal to stand and face the harshness and pain of life

It is, thats why I was questioning the definitions of euthanasia, people could be in physical or emotional/mental pain. They may consider what they did to be euthanasia while others would not.

The_Minister

Freelancer wrote:

AH we'll add psychology to the growing list of skills Firespinner is displaying.

Stuff it freelancer, you know what I meant. The way the posts were written, and the words used tell lots.

Freelancer wrote:

I must be curious to wonder how you can be "innocently" searching the web for such a site, and how you could forget what kind of site featured such disturbing behaviour..

I followed a link from some random site. I was not looking for the site, I merely came upon it. Due to this I did not note the websites address. The website was not disturbing, it was decorated in light colours and did not have any ominous symbols arond the place.

Freelancer wrote:

Or how you could tell at a glance what her mental state was, after such a composed post. Or if it was faked.

You know what I meant don't be a troll.
Even if it was faked, this was one of many of these people who were posting.

McGinty

McGinty wrote:

Just one other question, what is dignified and eloquent in her decision to die?

Is it not a cop out? Is it not a refusal to stand and face the harshness and pain of life, and to be honest, I would say this to my sister, life is hard, it is difficult and yet most of us at one time or another say **** it throw in the towel, I;ve had enough, but you keep going, why I am not sure, but we do.

Unfortunately there's usually no rationality behind it.
I'm going to have to answer no to the OP's question - I don't think it can ever be rational. Perhaps it can seem rational in their minds, such as -everyone dislikes me, I'm a burden on my family, they'd be better off without me, etc - but I'm going to say no. Perhaps there are exceptions, but I doubt it.

You say there's sometimes a glorification of it? So many people I've come across who have expressed an opinion on the issue say it's stupid and cowardly. Others say one cannot judge them on a rational basis, since they're clearly not.

Almost by definition I'd say not, since surely noone in a rational mind could overcome the basic instinct to survive.

McGinty

Freelancer, I would concur that although the term euthanisia is bandied about for aged or ill people to decide to end their lives, personally I class it as suicide, but I recognise that other people don't see it that way and call it euthansia, it is such a contenious subject. Personally I guess most suicides are relatively short lived decisions, be it a day or a month, euthanisa's or assisted suicides tend to be drawn out over longer periods be it weeks or months, but both are cop outs, it is taking the control of your life in your own hands, and whilst you love the person, you hate the action and you hope they are in peace, personally I condem the action, not the person.

Freelancer

Firespinner wrote:

Stuff it freelancer, you know what I meant. The way the posts were written, and the words used tell lots.

"she" used words did "she'? Wow thankfully we're able to rely on your expert insight into what the subtext of what those words meant.

I followed a link from some random site. I was not looking for the site, I merely came upon it. Due to this I did not note the websites address. The website was not disturbing, it was decorated in light colours and did not have any ominous symbols arond the place.

You followed the pretty lights to some pretty website. Sure......

You know what I meant don't be a troll.
Even if it was faked, this was one of many of these people who were posting.

Uh, and huh.


The fact that you've been incapable of elaborating upon her or anyone elses reasons beyond the most vague terms isn't at all suspicious. No siree bob.

nesf

Freelancer wrote:

I'm sorry what is your point?
If you're day to day unhappy to the point you want to end your life you are suffering from depression. End of discussion.

Not necessarily. The world is nowhere near as black and white as that and I think that the whole point of discussions such as these is to open people's eyes enough so that they can stop seeing in monochrome. To just label such behaviour so easily is truly pointless. One could be unhappy for weeks on end, but could be perfectly healthy mentally. Just being unhappy != depression.


As for the OP. Suicide is demonised and shunned by our culture. Someone who is suicidal is viewed as selfish, insane etc. This is not always the case. It will always be an extremely emotive issue as shown above, but that should not cloud the issue.

Do we have rights as people to control our bodies to the extent that we may choose to either harm or kill ourselves? Or are our personal liberities automatically lost in this instance? It's an extremely complex issue. There are strong arguments for both sides and whether you consider someone who is suicidal as "sane" or "able to think for themselves" is not a simple yes or no question.

woody

Nobody has the right to take there life even their own...

The only situation I would condone it, is in a battle situation where a posistion is going to be over run or you know you are going to be tortured to death, or taking your own life to save others where information would kill many (maybe not suicide) but a healthy or un healthy person should not comtemplate it as there can always be options.

But killing yourself because your sick or depressed etc is a selfish way out, I have been on a boat crew whilst part of the navy divers section and we recovered bodies a lot in the Shannon around Athlone and at first you would feel sorry but after a few more bodies you come to realise these people are selfish B*stards and dont think about the stigma attached to the family or the despair and destruction it causes...

So No unless in the first situation...

nesf

woody wrote:

Nobody has the right to take there life even their own...

That's a very broad statement to make. Surely there is a huge distinction between taking another person's life and taking one's own? And if taking life is wrong, how is it justified then to fight in a war as per you example?

woody

woody wrote:

Nobody has the right to take there life even their own...

The only situation I would condone it, is in a battle situation where a posistion is going to be over run or you know you are going to be tortured to death, or taking your own life to save others where information would kill many (maybe not suicide) but a healthy or un healthy person should not comtemplate it as there can always be options.

But killing yourself because your sick or depressed etc is a selfish way out, I have been on a boat crew whilst part of the navy divers section and we recovered bodies a lot in the Shannon around Athlone and at first you would feel sorry but after a few more bodies you come to realise these people are selfish B*stards and dont think about the stigma attached to the family or the despair and destruction it causes...

So No unless in the first situation...

Yes, because judging people by assuming they're in a rational state of mind when they're clearly not is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
They need help, not to be told they're selfish.
Their families? What about them? They're suffering so much to the extent they're going against their natural life-preserving instinct, and the first thing they should think about is the neighbours gossiping?
Cop on. Talk to some real live depressed people instead of looking at corpses.

Dudess

bluewolf wrote:

Yes, because judging people by assuming they're in a rational state of mind when they're clearly not is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
They need help, not to be told they're selfish.
Their families? What about them? They're suffering so much to the extent they're going against their natural life-preserving instinct, and the first thing they should think about is the neighbours gossiping?
Cop on. Talk to some real live depressed people instead of looking at corpses.

Yeah, the fact that it goes against one of our most fundamental instincts - if not THE most fundamental instinct - makes it far more complex than simply an act of selfishness. Technically there is a degree of selfishness, because it is all about the self, but there are people with depression so severe that they have to take medication in double figures every day just to get by. Even then, they're barely hanging on. Of course suicide is not the answer, but sometimes people are so messed up, they truly see no other way out.