Luas A1

Giblet

All we need now is Saggart to Blessington and we're away.

Ste.phen

Victor wrote: »

I got a copy of the order yesterday.

Nothing major, the conditions are essentially a bunch of agreements between the RPA and SDCC. The oddest one is that SDCC is retaining ownership of land under the tramway and hte trams will operate on a public right of way.

Would this mean that the tramway is free for public access (for example, by cyclists?)

stovelid

bigi wrote: »

Thanks OTK, where did you hear this? I can't find any news on it.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/luas-red-line-extension-on-track-after-green-light-1414661.html

scab-e

Has An Bord Pleanala refused permission for any infrastructure projects in the past 5 years? From what I can see they approve everything and are just a final delay in the system.

spacetweek

scab-e wrote: »

Has An Bord Pleanala refused permission for any infrastructure projects in the past 5 years? From what I can see they approve everything and are just a final delay in the system.

I'd like to think they they (a) realise the important of this infrastructure and don't put obstacles in the way and (b) that the projects are so carefully thought through that all potential objectionable details have already been removed by the time they reach ABP.

Well? Am I right?

L1011

Victor wrote: »

I got a copy of the order yesterday.

Nothing major, the conditions are essentially a bunch of agreements between the RPA and SDCC. The oddest one is that SDCC is retaining ownership of land under the tramway and hte trams will operate on a public right of way.

Hope someone tells Veoila's fine-giver-outers that...

Victor

Additional information added.

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/NA0002.htm

http://www.rpa.ie/luas/railway_orders/line_a1 (Preamble and Authorization and schedules seem to have been revised).

spacetweek

This one has been very quiet since they approved it. Anyone know what's going on ? It's being built with private money so the Gov's financial probs aren't an issue.

helimachoptor

spacetweek wrote: »

This one has been very quiet since they approved it. Anyone know what's going on ? It's being built with private money so the Gov's financial probs aren't an issue.

I live and work in citywest, the last few days they've had a crowd from an Archaeologists out with equipment where the line is going (looking for dead bodies/shopping trollies):D

paulm17781

spacetweek wrote: »

This one has been very quiet since they approved it. Anyone know what's going on ? It's being built with private money so the Gov's financial probs aren't an issue.

True, the developers financial probelms however will be an issue.

loyatemu

paulm17781 wrote: »

True, the developers financial probelms however will be an issue.

this is a good point - is this likely to be built now, is it entirely dependent on the owners of Citywest ponying up the dough? Presumably their plan was to get the Luas out there and then cover the area with houses and apartments - hardly a runner in the current climate...

dowlingm

Victor wrote: »

I got a copy of the order yesterday.

Nothing major, the conditions are essentially a bunch of agreements between the RPA and SDCC. The oddest one is that SDCC is retaining ownership of land under the tramway and hte trams will operate on a public right of way.

so that when Jim Mansfield finally overextends himself his creditors can't claim the tramway?

DWCommuter

The last few points are very valid and Ive been thinking the same thing myself. Private money is drying up because the banks money is drying up. Without a viable market for property, both commercial and residential, the deal doesn't look very healthy. Interestingly the signs for luas in citywest did undergo a date change earlier this year and I put that down to the slow planning and design proceedures. We can only wait and see what their next move will be but I would take it for granted because its private money.

stovelid

loyatemu wrote: »

Presumably their plan was to get the Luas out there and then cover the area with houses and apartments - hardly a runner in the current climate...

In fairness, the open area where the station is mooted for is the only place left to build in that part of Saggart. Plus a primary school is also mooted for that land too. Admittedly, it's a big enough plot of land though.

Mansfield and Hickey probably want the line for existing properties: the hotel, industrial estate and the shopping centre (the latter always looks pretty dead). There is already a large existing catchment area for the extension in Citywest, West Tallaght and Saggart anyway

I'm not sure if they were completely relying on new building to justify the extension.

Good point about the cash drying up though. Will certainly be interesting to see if work commences by the end of the year.

Victor

stovelid wrote: »

Mansfield and Hickey probably want the line for existing properties:

Mansfield wants it in part for his "national" convention centre.

There is already a large existing catchment area for the extension in Citywest, West Tallaght and Saggart anyway

Connections from A1 to much of West Tallaght isn't as good as it should be - it runs along the back wall of a number of housing estates - people have the choice of hoping over their garden wall or walk to a different stop.

paulm17781

DWCommuter wrote: »

The last few points are very valid and Ive been thinking the same thing myself. Private money is drying up because the banks money is drying up.

It's sort of the other way. Banks money is drying up because developers have a lot of debt / unsold properties. I've already heard many stories of developers not paying banks, accountants, staff... things are worse than we're currently seeing.

Look at how McNamara has already decided against his affordable development projects. I'm actually more worried about private (infrastrucutre) developments than government ones. The developers will see no reason to do so unless their is a guaranteed repayment such as the M50 toll.

FWIW, I'm not proposing doom and gloom like in other threads. I think MN and the IC are still likely to happen, it's the smaller PPP projects I'd be worried about.

helimachoptor

Has anyone heard an update on this??

I've seen people around the business park and also there doing some contruction on the road between the shopping centre and the Citywest hotel.

Victor

helimachoptor wrote: »

Has anyone heard an update on this??

Not really, there does seem to be some recruitement for it on-going.

helimachoptor

Victor wrote: »

Not really, there does seem to be some recruitement for it on-going.

Thanks Victor

spacetweek

helimachoptor wrote: »

Thanks Victor

Have emailed them and got a vague reply:

I refer to your email below, dated 15 January 2009, regarding the Luas extension to Citywest.

In agreement with the Railway Procurement Agency, a consortium of local developers will be responsible for delivery of a substantial part of the works for this extension as well as providing land and making a capital contribution in respect of the project. RPA secured a Railway Order from An Bord Pleanála for the Luas extension to Citywest in August 2008. Construction of the new spur is expected to commence early this year and be completed by end 2010 with services operating on the line in early 2011.

Thank you for your email, and should you have any further queries do not hesitate to contact this office.

Yours sincerely

Vincent Hogan
Transport 21 Division
Department of Transport

So, still no start date.

bg07

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0209/breaking80.htm

Supposedly construction is starting now.

bg07

Some more details in today's paper:-

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0210/1233867929665.html

IMO €150 for 4.2km of track seems a bit pricey even by Irish standards for track that passes through a lot of green field areas.

dowlingm

CLL will provide the land, a large proportion of the civil and track works, a 300-space park and ride facility and a monetary contribution. The RPA is providing the remainder of the infrastructure, including rolling stock, and electrical and mechanical systems.

I suppose overvalued land has pushed up the sticker price. If they had to provide "50%" now the monetary contribution bit would have to be a bit more - like Michael Woods' settlement with the churches...

spacetweek

bg07 wrote: »

IMO €150 for 4.2km of track seems a bit pricey even by Irish standards for track that passes through a lot of green field areas.

It sure does, especially as there'll be no bridging of roads with this one. The crossing of the Outer Ring Road already has the at-grade tracks in place ( a rare bit of forward planning there.)

helimachoptor

They've started doing work on the greenfield area facing the business park, so hopefully we'll start seeing something in the coming months.

otwb

From the Echo newspaper....

Councillors fail to spot downgraded Luas plan

Published Date: 14 April 2009

SOUTH Dublin County Councillors must 'put their hands up and plead guilty' after not one of the 26 elected representatives spotted service issues on the Luas to Citywest line despite the plans being accessible and on display since January 2008 and open for public submissions.
Confusion broke out in the Council chambers last week, when councillors argued that they were not aware of the 'poor level' of service on the Luas to Citywest line despite being a key player in the controversial re-zoning of the Saggart Green Belt back in 2006; re-zoning which paved the way for the Luas and further development.
Alarm bells started to ring when members of the Council realised that there will be no direct service from Citywest to the Square or to the city centre due to a decision by the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) to remove a Delta Junction at Cookstown (provided for by councillors in the original design which was then finalised by the RPA] resulting in passengers disembarking at Belgard and jumping on a Luas bound for Tallaght or town.
Described as a 'shuttle tram', questions surrounding the frequency of the service to Citywest, and concerns around the last stop been called Saggart when it's a good fifteen minute walk away from the village, have now been raised irrespective of councillors been an integral part of the public inquiry, public display and An Bord Pleanala's oral hearing.
According to Labour councillor Eamonn Maloney: "None of the 26 councillors saw the problem so there is no point pretending otherwise.
"Obviously it should of been seen, we need to be watching for these things all of the time....and now we must put our hands up and plead guilty."
Fianna Fáil councillor Joe Neville said: "Plans were put on display but not in relation to logistics and services and I think it's a failure on council officials who should of come back to members and updated them on any changes".
Councillor Karen Warren (Fine Gael) commented: "All (councillors] are equally annoyed, the service has been downgraded....we thought we were getting one thing but got another".
In a letter to the Echo in June 2006, four days before a vote was taken on the plans, Socialist Party councillor Mick Murphy wrote about the lack of conversation concerning services on the Luas alongside the possibility of there been only one tram every 30 minutes.
Cllr Murphy added: " What happened tells me is that people were much more focused on the re-zoning than they were on what we were supposedly getting for it. It was at the peak of the boom and everyone had lost the plot".
Surpised that councillors are talking about design plans at this stage, Tom Manning, RPA, commented: "It's very unusual that councillors are only waking up to something that was in the public domain for some while now".
Mr Manning was unable to comment on the level of service at the time of going to print

markpb

I'd be shocked if trams only ran every 30 minutes, it doesn't seem worth fitting the line for that little usage. That said, I doubt if A1 will have the demand for more than that.

Victor

Oral hearing was told about 6 Saggart-City and 9 Saggart-Belgard in peak (I think). I don't think there was a specific mention of off peak.

otwb

otwb wrote: »

Alarm bells started to ring when members of the Council realised that there will be no direct service from Citywest to the Square or to the city centre due to a decision by the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) to remove a Delta Junction at Cookstown (provided for by councillors in the original design which was then finalised by the RPA] resulting in passengers disembarking at Belgard and jumping on a Luas bound for Tallaght or town.

Victor -

Oral hearing was told about 6 Saggart-City and 9 Saggart-Belgard in peak (I think). I don't think there was a specific mention of off peak.

So there is to be a direct Saggart-Town service at some times of the day? What I'm getting from th epress report is that the new line will essentially be a shuttle service from Saggart to Belgard and you will then have to change to a passing Tallaght-Town tram to get into the City Centre?

(Everything is crossed that I'm wrong here)

L1011

otwb wrote: »

Victor -

So there is to be a direct Saggart-Town service at some times of the day? What I'm getting from th epress report is that the new line will essentially be a shuttle service from Saggart to Belgard and you will then have to change to a passing Tallaght-Town tram to get into the City Centre?

(Everything is crossed that I'm wrong here)

From what I've read, there will be some Saggart->Connolly and Saggart->Point services at peak hours.