Dell!!!!!!!!!

Linoge

Ok, About last May my laptop (Inspiron 5150) went on the blink. Just stopped booting for no reason. No overheating, no obvious hardware problem. Long story, but yes its been sitting there unused ever since.

Now I find out that there is actually well documented cases of the same fault and very much looks like Dell were at fault.

http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=insp_general&message.id=166703&view=by_date_ascending&page=1

Needless to say I am slightly annoyed:mad:

Has anyone else had this problem with any Dell? Has anyone had any experience with Dell outside of their warranty?

WexCan

I work for Dell, I haven't heard of this issue - then again, I don't support Inspirons. If it's in warranty, Dell replace whatever parts neccesary. If not, repairs would have to be paid for and that's not Dell's fault - read the Ts and Cs of sale/warranty.

Not trying to be a smart b@stard, just saying. You said it's not booting? The link refers to a problem where it will crash if pressure is applied to a certain point, how are these related?

Linoge

WexCan wrote:

I work for Dell, I haven't heard of this issue - then again, I don't support Inspirons. If it's in warranty, Dell replace whatever parts neccesary. If not, repairs would have to be paid for and that's not Dell's fault - read the Ts and Cs of sale/warranty.

Not trying to be a smart b@stard, just saying. You said it's not booting? The link refers to a problem where it will crash if pressure is applied to a certain point, how are these related?

I paraphrased it. I have the exact same problem. Pressure applied and it turns off. Moving turns it off. Turning on but no screen etc etc. Now it is totally dead.

Of course repairs would have to be paid for, but is that right?

I have linked to but 1 thread. There are literally hundreds of cases posted on message boards with this exact problem, the majority of which have happened a few months out of warranty. I'm sure there are countless more who have not posted or have paid to get it fixed. Class action suit here:http://www.lieffcabraser.com/dell-inspiron-2.htm

Maybe this sums my problem up better

"Imagine spending $2,000 on a laptop, using it for a little over a year — until just after the warranty expires — then having it quit, and you can’t restart it.

Then, the manufacturer says it will cost you $179 to diagnose the problem, as though you’re the first customer to have such a thing happen. But in fact it’s happened to many, many others, as the manufacturer well knows. Then, you learn repairs could cost as much as $500.

This is what’s reportedly been going on with people who bought Dell Inspiron 5150 laptops. It’s exactly the kind of thing that leads to class action lawsuits.

There’s no issue about people misusing or damaging their pricey portables. And any reasonable person would agree two grand should buy a decade or more of faithful service, not just 14 months or so. By all accounts, the problem occurs because of a fatal flaw in the design and/or construction of these laptops. "

A search of "Dell 5150 power problem" on google and you will see that I am not making this up....

WexCan

I'm not arguing, it's a crappy situation, but legally Dell have honoured their obligations. It's like people that call us and haven't bought an extended warranty, have the standard, free, 90 day warranty and then threaten legal action when they're told they'll have to pay for repair a year after buying it.

Now, admittedly, this does seem to be widespread. I hadn't heard of it before. Make enough noise and they'll probably fix it for you but technically I think this is more of a good-customer-service issue than a legal issue.

Charlie

This is what annoys the pants off me about electronic goods and the people that make them This is not just a swipe at dell (i'm a proud owner of a 9300), but you say that the standard warranty is 90 days and after thta you're left on your own, well thats absolute BS. Do you think that the reasonable expectation one can have of the lifespan of a laptop is 90 days. If people knew their consumer rights they would know that if your laptop broke down for no apparent reason after 6 monthst that Dell can't legally fob you off saying that your only covered for 90 days.

WexCan

Why have a 90 day warranty option then? I'm sure the legal department did their research to make sure it was kosher.

MunsterCycling

WexCan wrote:

Why have a 90 day warranty option then? I'm sure the legal department did their research to make sure it was kosher.

So they can fob people off who don't know their rights.

BTW It may be kosher in the US but not here as the product is covered by a 12 month warranty by LAW which cannot be signed away no matter what conditions Dell want to put on their site.

In the UK the situation is even better with the vendor having to prove that defects like these are not inherent, this covers distance selling (Dell, Komplett, Dabs you name it they're covered) and High street shops but of course the Party of Failure and the PayDays (if you speak french then you'll enjoy that one) have been dragging their knuckles on the ground over this so we haven't got the same protection.... YET. Will prob have to look to EU to get this brought in.:rolleyes:

WexCan

Do you have something to back up the 12 month warranty by law?

seamus

WexCan wrote:

Do you have something to back up the 12 month warranty by law?

In the sale of any goods, there is an "implied" warranty whereby the seller must honour repairs and parts for a "reasonable period" after the sale.

It's generally accepted that for electronic goods, a "reasonable period" is 8-12 months.

WexCan

But if the buyer knowingly enters into a contract where the warranty period is not implied, but rather set at 90 days, surely that would override it?

seamus

WexCan wrote:

But if the buyer knowingly enters into a contract where the warranty period is not implied, but rather set at 90 days, surely that would override it?

Edit, sorry I'm incorrect. If the period is expressly stated, then yes, that applies.

Linoge

Wexcan, the warranty is not the problem here. Its Dells shipping of a computer that breaks just out of warranty that is the problem. I paid €2200 for the laptop, is it right that it should be almost timed to break after 18 months?

WexCan

Timed implies deliberate. There may be a lot of Dell haters out there but I very much doubt that thay'd do it that way.

Only thing to do really is talk to a tech, ask for a manager and get it escalated. a) Making enough noise might get you a repair. b) If enough people do it then they could put a proactive programme in place.

far2gud

I used to work for Dell aswell

You can only expect repair within the warranty you buy. Motherboards do fail regardless of the manufacturer of the product. Computer companys abviously do not advertise this as it is bad for business- but is nonetheless fact. If your buying a expensive system pay the extra for the 3 year warranty to protect your investment. It costs dell almost a grand to replace a system board within the warranty and that cost is passed on to you if you dont purchase it. I am not a Dell fanboy or anything but I used to get quite annoyed by people screaming down the phone at me about company policy in relation to out of warranty systems. On the other hand if this is a known fault you should be intitled to repair..but dell willl not admit this very easily and if their refusing the repair generally they are not aware of a problem.

HelterSkelter

far2gud wrote:

I used to work for Dell aswell

You can only expect repair within the warranty you buy. Motherboards do fail regardless of the manufacturer of the product.

Not according to the Director of Consumer Affairs website

When goods are bought the 'consumer' has a contract with the seller. Under this contract the consumer has a legal right to expect that the goods will be of merchantable quality. This means that the goods should be of reasonable quality taking into account what is said about them (advertising), what they are supposed to do, their durability and their price. Goods must also be fit for their purpose: in short they must do what they are sold as being capable of doing, and they must also be as described. The description on a package must not be misleading. Goods can be described in a brochure, or orally by a salesperson. Where goods are bought on seeing a sample, they should correspond with the sample. [e.g: if a consumer buys 20 rolls of wallpaper on the basis of looking at a sample roll the remaining 19 rolls must be the same as the sample roll looked at].

A consumer cannot claim for faults specifically brought to his or her attention or for faults which should have been noticed assuming that the goods were examined.

If things go wrong who is responsible for putting them right?

The seller: -always. It is the seller who has the contract with the buyer/consumer and the seller is always responsible to the consumer.

Your rights when things go wrong.

If goods are not of merchantable quality or are not fit for their purpose or are not as described the consumer is entitled to a remedy.

If the reason for the complaint is not trivial and is discovered soon after purchase, the consumer is entitled to reject the goods and insist on a full refund provided prompt action is action is taken.

If the goods have been used for some time, or if there is undue delay in making the complaint, or if there is reason to believe that the goods have been accepted, the consumer's entitlement, at best, may be to a repair or to a partial refund.

There are no hard and fast rules as each case has to be considered on its merits.

These are the rights every customer has. Any warranty you pay for is in addition to these rights and does not override them.

WexCan

Dell Ts and Cs wrote:

Warranty
Unless otherwise stated, Dell guarantees to you that Dell-branded Products will be free from defects for 12 months from delivery and spare parts for 90 days from installation or delivery date, whichever is the earlier. Should Product be defective within this period, Dell will repair or replace Product within a reasonable time. All reasonable care and endeavour shall be used to resolve problems within a realistic period in the circumstances. Dell manufactures and repairs using components, which are new or equivalent to new in accordance with industry standards and practice. Notebook batteries are delivered with one-year warranty (not upgradeable). Dell warranty is given in place of all implied warranties and that such implied warranties are excluded to the fullest permitted extent. Dell may revise its limited warranties from time to time but any such change will not affect products ordered by you prior to the date of such change.
Dell does not give a warranty guarantee protection for:

1. damage caused by incorrect installation, use, modifications or repair by any unauthorised 3rd party or yourself;

• <LI class=point_normal>damage caused by any party (except Dell) or other external force; <LI class=point_normal>fitness for any particular purpose; <LI class=point_normal>3rd Party Products, Software and IM specified by you. You will receive the warranty or licence for these products directly from their manufacturer or licensor;
• any instruction given by you and correctly performed by Dell.

You must provide Dell with all reasonable courtesy, information, cooperation, facilities and access to enable Dell to perform duties, failing which Dell shall not be obliged to perform any Service or assistance. You are responsible for the removal of non Dell-supplied products during Service, the back up and confidentiality of all data in Product and all of your legal and regulatory requirements.
Please note that your calls to Dell may be monitored for training purposes.

@HelterSkelter - there's nothing in your quote about time periods.

Charlie

WexCan wrote:

But if the buyer knowingly enters into a contract where the warranty period is not implied, but rather set at 90 days, surely that would override it?

No. Its the same as the shops that have a sign on the window saying "NO REFUNDS". There are certain consumer rights which the Law feels that even the consumer cannot contract out of it. This is done under the pretense of the common good. Every consumre has the right that there good will last for and objective, reasonable period. If the product fails within that period through no fault of the consumer, then it is likely that the seller is liable. how long this period actually is depends on the good itself, price etc. But in relation to a new laptop I would be pretty certain that period is not 90 days. It would be more in the region of 12-18 months.

far2gud

That is all all well and good. But consumer affairs sadly are not really an issue for dell. If you read the small print they have about every eventual lawsuit covered, as well as a team of lawyers to back it up. You would be lucky to find a solicitor in the land willing to represent you. I sympathise with the situation but the only chance he has is Dell goodwill which can also be flaky at times.

HelterSkelter

Dell warranty is given in place of all implied warranties and that such implied warranties are excluded to the fullest permitted extent.

It is not permitted to exclude statuory rights so they cannot be excluded by this agrement or any agreement no matter what contract you sign. As charlie mchugh said with the no refunds signs the same applies here. Also the time periods are not stated so if Dell refuse to repair/replace it is up to the customer to take them to the small claims court (only costs the customer €9) and the judge will decide what is a fair period of time. I assume 90 days will be considered unfair.

HelterSkelter

far2gud wrote:

That is all all well and good. But consumer affairs sadly are not really an issue for dell. If you read the small print they have about every eventual lawsuit covered, as well as a team of lawyers to back it up. You would be lucky to find a solicitor in the land willing to represent you. I sympathise with the situation but the only chance he has is Dell goodwill which can also be flaky at times.

He doesn't need a solicitor, he can go to the small claims court for €9 (correction €15). A judge will decide who is wrong and who is right.
http://oasis.gov.ie/justice/small_claims_court/small_claims_court.html

far2gud

HelterSkelter wrote:

He doesn't need a solicitor, he can go to the small claims court for €9. A judge will decide who is wrong and who is right.
http://oasis.gov.ie/justice/small_claims_court/small_claims_court.html

Waste of nine quid me thinks

twogunkid

They will settle if you threaten them with the small claims court.
It will cost you €9.00 only.( Dell potentially millions )
The court writes to them explaining that they are to appear on a due date.
You bring in any evidence which backs your claim

---

receipt etc,info from other disgruntled users ( which you can download from the web )
Do you honestly think they will appear and make bad publicity for themselves !!!
Michael Dell would shorten their careers abruptly were his company exposed to this kind of bad press.It just wouldnt happen. Besides they have the potential to lose millions in forgone sales

---

u lose €9.00

---

Its a no brainer---.
Secondly before going down that route u should write to them explaining your dissapointment.This gives them the opportunity to put it right and shows the judge that you have done your best to get them to do the right thing.

One more thing

---

my experience with Dell leads me to beleive that they will do all they can to keep a customer happy---decent crowd to deal with.
Go for it
Good luck !!

Slutmonkey57b

I think there's a big difference here between out-of-warranty repairs, and inherent defects. If a product fails outside the warranty period, then Dell are under no obligation to repair it free. If, however, they are knowingly selling a product which has an inherent defect, then they are breaking the law by selling laptops which they know are not of merchantable quality. While it's true that individual sales people and repair people who are dealing with the products may not all know about the problem above, it would be true to say that Dell themselves are aware of it, which leaves them with a very shaky defense in the small claims court.

WexCan

tbh I'd say it'd be the other way around. People on the floor might know but the upper echelons, so to speak, might not.

Charlie

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

I think there's a big difference here between out-of-warranty repairs, and inherent defects. If a product fails outside the warranty period, then Dell are under no obligation to repair it free.

I have to disagree with you to a certain extent. Dell cannot fob people off with a "free" 90 warranty, and if the laptop needs repair outside of that period then you're on your own? I find it very hard to believe that this would comply with the Sale of Goods And Supply of Services Act 1980. If Dell weren"t so cheap they would realise that the minimum "free " warranty they should be giving on new laptops is at least 12 months.

WexCan

How is Dell "fobbing" people off? They're providing an inexpensive option to bring down the cost of their products. People are made well aware that the warranty peoriod is 90 days. This is the contract that the company has entered into with the buyer.

Boggles

WexCan wrote:

How is Dell "fobbing" people off? They're providing an inexpensive option to bring down the cost of their products. People are made well aware that the warranty peoriod is 90 days. This is the contract that the company has entered into with the buyer.

Anyone in the know that can actually clear this up with fact.

If you buy a desktop with Dell 90 day warranty, on the 91st day if the hard drive fails they are not obliged to replace it. Is this true or bogus under Irish consumer law.

WexCan

(you do get 1-2 weeks grace period after warranty expires)

Boggles

WexCan wrote:

(you do get 1-2 weeks grace period after warranty expires)

That's official?

You get 104 days warranty. Dell ovbiously have covered themselves, how is it not in conflict with 12 month warranty, do you know? Would be nice to clear that up too.

WexCan

With all warranty periods you get 1-2 weeks grace period. It's a generally accepted thing on the floor.

When the customer buys a 90 day warranty that overrides the 1 year warranty as stated in the Ts and Cs.

Boggles

WexCan wrote:

With all warranty periods you get 1-2 weeks grace period. It's a generally accepted thing on the floor.

When the customer buys a 90 day warranty that overrides the 1 year warranty as stated in the Ts and Cs.

Fair play to you, for arguement sake so, if you sign up fro 90 days that's all your going to get (excluding grace period).

You wave your right to a standard 12 month warranty. I wonder has this ever been contested?

Charlie

WexCan wrote:

With all warranty periods you get 1-2 weeks grace period. It's a generally accepted thing on the floor.

When the customer buys a 90 day warranty that overrides the 1 year warranty as stated in the Ts and Cs.

As it has already been said , consumer right cannot be contracted out of. A consumer CANNOT SIGN THEM AWAY. The issue at hand is what the court would deem an acceptable period of time that a consumer could expect their new laptop not to need a repair for, and as I have already stated I doubt the court would consider 90 days that such period.

Boggles

charlie mchugh wrote:

As it has already been said , consumer right cannot be contracted out of. A consumer CANNOT SIGN THEM AWAY. The issue at hand is what the court would deem an acceptable period of time that a consumer could expect their new laptop not to need a repair for, and as I have already stated I doubt the court would consider 90 days that such period.

So it is up to a judge to decide. Is there no law that states that electrical equipment should last for a certain amount of time, I always thought 12 months?

WexCan

charlie mchugh wrote:

As it has already been said , consumer right cannot be contracted out of. A consumer CANNOT SIGN THEM AWAY. The issue at hand is what the court would deem an acceptable period of time that a consumer could expect their new laptop not to need a repair for, and as I have already stated I doubt the court would consider 90 days that such period.

Where does it say that they can't? The retailer has entered into a contract with the buyer that gives a fixed warranty period. The law gives no fixed warranty period, as far as I can see...

Charlie

Section 10 subsection 3 staes: "Goods are of merchantable quality if they are as fit for the purpose or purposes for which goods of that kind are commonly bought and as durable as it is reasonable to expect having regard to any description applied to them, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances, and any reference in this Act to unmerchantable goods shall be construed accordingly"

See where it states that the goods should be durable, and that this is based on a ubjective test asto what the nature of the good is and the price paid for it. This has been interpreted by the judiciary as a time period which a person can expect there goods to be free of any problems. It has been commonly held that in respect of electronic household goods, that period is at least 12 and upto 36 months.

i71jskz5xu42pb

WexCan wrote:

Where does it say that they can't?

Jeez, have you never heard the expression "Your statutory rights are not affected"?
From the statute:

Rights under a guarantee shall not in any way exclude or limit the rights of the buyer at common law ....

Even the Dell T&C's that were quoted recognise this in the "implied warranties are excluded to the fullest permitted extent" i.e. they recognise that there is a limit on the exclusion.

There relevant law has already been pointed out to you. There's a reasonable expectation clause there. A reasonable person (and I'm excluding you from this group) might say that if you pay €2000 for a laptop it'll work for longer than 12/18 months (even if it is a Dell).

HelterSkelter wrote:

He doesn't need a solicitor, he can go to the small claims court for €9 (correction €15).

and only if the laptop cost less than €2,000

WexCan

So can anyone then explain to me the point of having a warranty option in the first place? Sure if anyone can run off to court within 3 years and put in a claim, why have a warranty service?

[edit] BTW, I don't appreciate being called unreasonable, I'm making valid arguments as much as you are. No need to add personal jibes into it.

Charlie

WexCan wrote:

So can anyone then explain to me the point of having a warranty option in the first place? Sure if anyone can run off to court within 3 years and put in a claim, why have a warranty service?

[edit] BTW, I don't appreciate being called unreasonable, I'm making valid arguments as much as you are. No need to add personal jibes into it.

This was my entire pooint if you look at my first post. This so called "free" 90 warranty is rubbish. To a greater extent so is the 1 year waranty thta you have to pay for. Warranties are useful for other goods, such as a mobile phone or a hard disk mp3 player. The cheaper the product and the greater the general acceeptence is that a good dosen't have much of life span, the more useful a purchased extended warranty is.

WexCan

Ok I see where you're coming from, but that doesn't answer the legal side of it. I'd love to know for definite myself, could solve a lot of arguments with customers.

hobie

As a long time Dell user I've always encouraged buddies to buy the 3 year warranty ..... it costs peanuts (on a typical desktop say less than a pint per week) ....... Dell pay for collection and return delivery by courier .... in the one return I've had they even sent me suitable packaging materials prior to collection :eek: .....

I've quoted my views from time to time on Forums and always been blown out of the water ...... "replacement parts are so cheap to buy it's not worth paying for a 3 year warranty"..... "Pc's are so reliable it's not worth paying !!!!" etc etc ....

But I've always payed the 100.00 odd euro's for the 3 year warranty and am quite happy to do so ...

i71jskz5xu42pb

WexCan wrote:

but that doesn't answer the legal side of it. I'd love to know for definite myself, could solve a lot of arguments with customers.

This is why I think you're being unreasonable. Each time some of the relevant legislation has been mentioned and linked to you seem to disregard it. The sale of goods and supply of services act is the legislation and it is linked to in its raw form and in consumer friendly formats above. What part of it do you not understand? I'm not trying to be glib here - I really don't know what part of it is not clear to you?

WexCan wrote:

So can anyone then explain to me the point of having a warranty option in the first place? Sure if anyone can run off to court within 3 years and put in a claim, why have a warranty service?

Nobody said that *anybody* can put in a claim - there needs to be a reasonable expectation that the product should have lasted longer. Warranties are also useful for on site service, global service, accidental damage or simply to avoid having to deal with the hassle and time of going though the courts.

WexCan

Relevant legislation that doesn't say much, IMO. At least not anything definite.

A lot of PCs last for years. I have a system from 1998 under my desk as a file server. The idealists would say that PCs should all last this long - this is where the law gets muddy. Who is in a place to objectively say how long something should last?

i71jskz5xu42pb

WexCan wrote:

Who is in a place to objectively say how long something should last?

Nobody - who said it had to be totally objective? The legal system is somewhat subjective by its nature. The phase "reasonable doubt" is one that gets trotted out at lot - that's subjective to the jury or judge that makes the decision as to what they consider reasonable.

And in this case a judge will take a view on a reasonable expectation as to how long the product should have lasted given the price.

If you're expecting a list of products with an expected lifetime somewhere in the statute books you'll be disappointed.

Charlie

WexCan wrote:

Relevant legislation that doesn't say much, IMO. At least not anything definite.

Now you are being unreasonable. "Relevant legislation that doesn't say much" what more does it need to say:mad: I'd love to see laughs you'd get in court if you said that in answer to being convicted of a statutory offence.

WexCan

With all respect to you, for something like this surely it should be less "wishy-washy"? If I was accused of theft, fine, the law is clear. The law in this case, is not.

Charlie

WexCan wrote:

With all respect to you, for something like this surely it should be less "wishy-washy"? If I was accused of theft, fine, the law is clear. The law in this case, is not.

Wrong. The law often has to be interpreted by the courts asto what the intention of the legislature is. This can involve deciding whether an offence is of strict liability, to detrming whether a person can be convicted of murder on the basis of recklessness rather than intent. Not everything is black and white and the law is one of the greatest examples of this. In case of the sale of goods act, it is prudent to allow a judge to decide whether a good is of merchantable quailty because, in order to adduce such a fact many onsiderations have to be taken into account. Therefore each case differs from the last and it would be foolish to set down a set of rules which could result in harshness on behalf of the consumer or the sellor.

Linoge

Ok, so has anyone actually dealt with Dell with regards to problems outside of warranty?

TempestSabre

On a slightly different tack. Did you try any other companies to repair it? Some of them may have Dell parts from other machines or buy them from the US etc.

http://www.computersunlimited.ie/

Never used them myself, but worth a try?

HelterSkelter

WexCan wrote:

So can anyone then explain to me the point of having a warranty option in the first place?

The benefit of the warrenty is that Dell pick up the laptop and deliever it back when it's repaired. Plus you don't have to go through arguing with someone on the phone like you who doesn't know what the customers rights are. Also a lot of customers don't know their own rights and assume if it is out of warrenty there is nothing they can do. Dell can make a few extra quid by selling extended warrenty to these people.

HelterSkelter

Linoge wrote:

Ok, About last May my laptop (Inspiron 5150) went on the blink. Just stopped booting for no reason. No overheating, no obvious hardware problem. Long story, but yes its been sitting there unused ever since.

Now I find out that there is actually well documented cases of the same fault and very much looks like Dell were at fault.

http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=insp_general&message.id=166703&view=by_date_ascending&page=1

Needless to say I am slightly annoyed:mad:

Has anyone else had this problem with any Dell? Has anyone had any experience with Dell outside of their warranty?

OP, any update, you been back on to Dell yet? Did you mention the Consumer Act?

WexCan

HelterSkelter wrote:

The benefit of the warrenty is that Dell pick up the laptop and deliever it back when it's repaired. Plus you don't have to go through arguing with someone on the phone like you who doesn't know what the customers rights are. Also a lot of customers don't know their own rights and assume if it is out of warrenty there is nothing they can do. Dell can make a few extra quid by selling extended warrenty to these people.

Hey, I'm only trying to work it all out myself, no need for all this WexCan-bashing.