My new article

Dragan

Roper wrote:

I'd tell them to get their lardy ass out of my gym and into weight watchers!:D

To quote Chuck Lidell "Man, thats messed up. Why you got to pick on the fat kids!"

Roper wrote:

Damn it Dragan! Don't take my point, disagree then we can have endless hours of amusement!:D

I'd love to , but i just don't have the mental capacity right now.... i keep getting interrupted by....."work" wft???

Liam,
you clearly have no understanding of wrestling if you keep thinking that all wrestling involves take downs.

STAB involves arm control and body control with strikes. Its fully pressure tested.

Do not attempt to "grapple" with a knifer. Once on the ground, you are not guaranteed to be able to control his knife arm well enough to prevent him from carving you up. If it were a barehanded fight, then you can often prevent him from being able to generate enough power to effectively strike you, but a knife doesn't need power, it just needs to touch you. And if you are attempting to control his arm while on the ground, he will wiggle free and repeatedly cut you until you can no longer continue to resist.

Grappling does not necessarily equal putting a guy on the ground. It can be controlling the knife arm while you headbutt and knee. Have you ever defended a knife drill against John Kavanagh or Judo Mick? Both would employ striking and grappling and would be able to deliver a knife blow quickly.

Colum

silat liam

columok wrote:

Liam,
you clearly have no understanding of wrestling if you keep thinking that all wrestling involves take downs.

STAB involves arm control and body control with strikes. Its fully pressure tested.



Grappling does not necessarily equal putting a guy on the ground. It can be controlling the knife arm while you headbutt and knee. Have you ever defended a knife drill against John Kavanagh or Judo Mick? Both would employ striking and grappling and would be able to deliver a knife blow quickly.

Colum

Hi Colum

Thats the point of my argument any person wheither they are trained in Martial Arts or not can deliver a knife blow very quickly. I dont believe one minute that there many good martial artist drifting around carrying knives looking for a fight. If they were they should be lock up. The knife is use by people as a equaliser, a way of getting you to do what they want. If your style of martial art teaches you how to realisticly defend against a blade thats cool.

To answer your question about John and judomick. Ive just met them once last year when they attended one of my seminars. But why if you were using a blade would you get involve in Grappling. First of all its illegal to use a blade and by grappling your attacker you therefore must assumed that he hasnt got a blade otherwise that would be foolish. So if the attacker hadnt got a blade why are you using one on him. You are therefore the attacker not the other way around. I dont think this is what these guys are teaching. You cannot carry blades around with you and you can never use a blade on a unarmed attacker full stop.This is why I started this thread on knife defence.

To judomick thats a fair point so if we look at all the people who use cars everyday. I think thats about 4 Million people and 400 get killed every year that represents I think a 0.001% of getting Killed than since it such a small number there would be no need to wear seatbelts as the chance of something happen is so little and its all used by the media as a way of hype and selling newspapers. Nobody nowadays would not think of not wearing a seatbelt. So people coming to Martial Arts if they are looking for Self defence should be aware of how to deal with some knife training that borders on being realistic. People join Martial Arts for all type of reasons and self defence is one of them, some join because they want to fight in the ring and if fills a need for them to prove themselves, some join because they want to get fitter, some join to help with stress, every reason is valied and we lucky in Ireland to have such a wide variety on offer to fill everyone needs and desired.

On a final note I do know about Grappling and wrestling as the Harimau and Cimande styles of Silat I learnt have a large percentage of grappling. I also learnt wrestling through the dumog. And a number of my private students trained in the US at gracies clubs. So I do have some experience of grappling. Maybe not to the same extents of other people on this forum, but silat is such a wide range of areas to enjoy and experience that it takes all my time just to do what I do.


As I said before this is not a anti someone else Martial Arts. I just saying be careful of applying locks, hold or takedowns to someone in the street in case he carrying a blade. Never thought so many of you guys would disagree with that.

Michael O Leary

judomick wrote:

id like everyone to ask this question why do i train? when you have
answered this then ask and what will that do for me

everyone regardless of what they train will eventually have the same answer

if someone says i train self defence/martial arts for self preservation i
say their full of ****

I think alot of people are naive about the reality of the dangers in society
the media sensationalises alot of topics to sell more papers the same with tv for
ratings

heres a non debatable fact

2003 52 people died from being attacked(whether it was a knife ,triangle
or multiple attackers with dildos and a flying monkey

2003 approx 15000 people died from heart related disease

im sure you agree theres a lesson there

Liam, Michael,Roper, Musashi, Colm etc if someone came to you who
was overweight and asked you about self defence would you tell them my martial art will
do that for you or would you tell them to go running twice a week and dont eat bad food?

Hi Judo Mick,

I train and teach solely for self-defence. Sorry that you think that I am full of ****. You seemed all right when we trained at a recent seminar, I didn't know that was what you were really thinking.

Actually the point of self-defence was one of the main topics at the seminar with the instructor stating that if you train for self-defence then you are somehow mentally unbalanced and need a therapist. He drew a scenario where a 30 stone survillist wearing combats questioning the self-defence aspect of grappling. This is a valid point however the instructor made the point that the individual is more likely to die of heart disease than be attacked. This is not a bad point but he did not address the question of grappling on the street and instead did a Gerry Adams and questioned the question.

Now here is the thing. Neither I nor any of my students are 30 stone. I have a body fat content of about 20-25% and am reasonably fit. I have a life outside of martial arts, a full time job, final year in college, good family/social relationships. For the instructor to suggest that I need a therapist due to my training for self-defence is insulting and silly. However maybe he is not so silly and is merely spouting his own propaganda by comparing the best in what he does with the worst in others. As I mentioned earlier we can all do that and compare the best in self-defence with the worst in sports.

As I mentioned in another post even though statictically we may never be physically attacked the value of learning a self-defence based martial art is that it can remove the feeling of being totally vunerable (without giving the person a false sence of security) and this can have a positive impact on someones quality of life.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Colm_OReilly

Judomick has bicep sliced the correct.

There is no excuse for being overweight: genetic predisposition, viral theory of obesity be damned. Energy In and Energy Out, balance these and you won't gain weight.

Columok has essentially answered any questions regarding knife defence and STAB/grappling so I won't reiterate them.

However, I'll point people to the post I made a while ago about creating your own reality. I live in Dublin, I go out to Night Clubs in Dublin quite frequently. I don't get in fights, get mugged, or anything like that. It doesn't happen to anyone in my social circle.

I'm not going to carry around a knife, phaser riffle, or Bathleth. Just don't get in fights, make that your reality.

Dragan

Colm_OReilly wrote:

There is no excuse for being overweight:

To be honest with you dude, that just a bit rough and unfair and if i may say so the words of someone who has obviously never had any sort of weight issues or eating problems, to either one extremem or the other. Why not just say that there is no excuse for bulimia, or anorexia?

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Just don't get in fights, make that your reality.

I'm happy for you, i really am. But just accept the fact that not all fights are fair, not all fights get started by both parties and not all fights leave you with an opportuinity to a) walk away from it or b) see it coming.

ninjawitatitude

LOL @

Roper wrote:

What's going on here folks, are we training for a post-apocalyptic nightmare world in which everyone carries knives and weapons around? Is this Thunderdome? I live in Dublin, it's not always safe but it's not Escape from New York either.

That's the funniest thing I've read in ages, it made me belly laugh my cornflakes all over the keyboard. Seriously though, knife attacks have gone up by 400% in the last ten years though (garda figures). These figures don't take into account the extra million people living here in the last ten years though.

Roper wrote:

Liam, we can all copy and paste, I'd like to hear you argue your points, not some "expert". And I've read about "Animal" McYoung, and he seems to me to have been in an awful lot of streetfights. That to me is the total opposite to anyone I want teaching me self defence. I'll take the guy who's avoided them thanks.

So, he's been in 1000's of streetfights, but now he wants to lecture US on awareness?

In fairness, Mark Mac Young was a bouncer/security when he got in most street fights and avoiding them probably wasn't an option. Having seen his videos and heard him talk I think he comes across as a fairly level headed guy. I doubt he's antagonised many of the situations. I could be wrong, but of the hundreds of "experts" I've listened to over the years, he's one of the few I'd like at my back in a hairy situation.

My two scents.

silat liam

Thought I would add this paste (yes another paste) found it this afternoon on the net about crime and violence figures in Ireland. It worth having a read and a think.
Totally agree with you Michael on your post



Crime
Going Up! Going Down!Ireland's police force, An Garda Siochanna, have spent tens of millions installing a new centralized computer system throughout the nation. Years late and with problems reputed to include an interface so complex and cranky that many Garda simply don't bother reporting anything but the most major crimes.

Vandalism and robbery in some parts of Dublin is so common that many people don't bother reporting minor thefts - garden furniture, kids bikes left outside for a few minutes and the like.

Gang related drug-turf fights probably make up the majority of murders. These are getting more vicious as the gangs acquire more guns. My advice is don't choose drug dealing as a career path.

Rape crisis experts report that they're dealing with more victims than ever. But, fewer are reporting such crimes to the police. The same goes for minor burglaries which are common enough in the towns to not be worth notifying the Garda/Police.

All told there were more than 100,000 serious crimes reported in a recent year. That's a big number even if it does undercount some crimes. And 4,000 assaults causing harm is hardly cause for rejoicing.

Avoiding Being a Victim

I know from following court cases reported in my local papers that the vast majority of these assaults are, as they say here, "drink related".

Let me summarise years of newspaper reports. A bunch of drunken and often drugged up yobs pour out of the weekend discos. The lads have somehow managed to pour a dozen or so pints down their bellies - something upward of a gallon of alcohol. Result - mayhem. Often between friends, or two guys putting the eye on the same girl. Or, in another oft-used phrase "words were exchanged" and before you know it someone is lying on the pavement getting his head stomped. Literally.

That takes care of maybe 80pc of those assaults causing harm. The rest, including unprovoked and dementedly vicious attacks, are what make headlines.

So, Ireland is not a paradise without problems.

I do know, however, that I can walk safely around my little town of Dungarvan - population 8,000 - on dark streets without worry. And I also know that, like everywhere, there are certain big city areas best avoided after dark. After the pubs and clubs close late on Friday and Saturday nights, I don't hang out on the streets. The worst drunken drivers usually hit the road and each other between 3am and 6am on the weekends.

Following a few common sense rules makes, well, common sense.

Safe Spots

The safest spots in the nation, based on headline crimes per 1,000 of populace, are

Roscommon/Galway East - 8.27
Donegal - 8.4
Clare - 8.4
Mayo - 8.77
Cork West - 8.93
Cavan-Monaghan - 8.95

The most dangerous spots, as would be expected, are in Dublin's inner city.

Dublin - North Central - 124.00
Dublin - South Central - 97.49

After this, the trouble spots in Dublin fall off hugely.

Dublin - Eastern - 23.84
Dublin - Southern - 23.80
Dublin - Western - 23.22
Dublin - Northern - 19.64

Cork City comes next at 20.93, then Waterford/Kilkenny at 20.05. Surprisingly, considering Limerick's poor reputation as "Stab City" for a few, high profile gang feuds, Limerick scores well at 16.75. Is that because Limerick was grouped with its peaceful countryside?

The rest of the nation came in somewhere in the low teens, between Cork North's 10.09 and Carlow/Kildare's 18.23.

In short, don't live in central Dublin and your chances of being a victim of a "headline" crime are generally below 2% in Ireland. Leave the nightclubs 30 minutes early and your risk becomes significantly lower.

Murder, She

Dragan

silat liam wrote:

Surprisingly, considering Limerick's poor reputation as "Stab City" for a few, high profile gang feuds, Limerick scores well at 16.75. Is that because Limerick was grouped with its peaceful countryside?

I can honestly say that few people outside of certain area's would be affected by any kind of violence in Limerick. Obviously it has it's trouble spots, but it's mostly native on native in there areas and the incidents are rarely reported.

All in all, i would say from having lived in Limerick that it's a pretty safe place for your average Joe.

ninjawitatitude

Hey Colm,

Colm_OReilly wrote:

However, I'll point people to the post I made a while ago about creating your own reality. I live in Dublin, I go out to Night Clubs in Dublin quite frequently. I don't get in fights, get mugged, or anything like that. It doesn't happen to anyone in my social circle.

I'm not going to carry around a knife, phaser riffle, or Bathleth. Just don't get in fights, make that your reality.

Are you honestly suggesting that 100% of victims of violent crimes brought it on themselves and are at least partly to blame for their injuries. Go down to the rape crisis centre and tell them that. I'm sure they'll all be relieved to know they can just walk away the next time.

It's not escape from New York (still funny) but there is plenty of violence out there. Now, most of it can be avoided. But some of it can't. If it could, there wouldn't be twelve thousand doormen in Dublin. Most guys with even a little proper training have little to worry about, but the average guy, who can't even scrap for thirty seconds, might want to think about what he's going to do in that situation, should it arise.

My two cents

Scramble

Actually the point of self-defence was one of the main topics at the seminar with the instructor stating that if you train for self-defence then you are somehow mentally unbalanced and need a therapist.

Hi Michael,

I was at that seminar too, although I interpeted what was said in a different way. The point I took away was that if someone is sincere about being safer, then fighting skills would be addressed after more statistically-likely causes of death or serious injury, like heart disease. It would come after improvements in your diet, the amount you exercise, the amount you drink, your knowledge of first aid, how you behave on the roads.

Suppose instead of spending the bulk of their time addressing the above, someone spends several hours a week training with the intention of learning to resist criminal assault, rehearsing knife defence, learning about the psychology of predators and victims and whatnot, then sharing information and talking about it on the internet each day. Taken in conjunction with the fact that we live in one of the safest countries in western europe, then I think they probably would benefit from examining what their real motivations are, because something is off. A disproportionate amount of time would be being spent preparing for an event that is statistically highly unlikely. I think a more honest explanation would be that time is spent this way because they enjoy this type of training and learning about this area. This then begs the question- Is it a bit of harmless Walter Mitty-esque fun, or is there something a bit sad about it...?

Responsibility for this whole debate also lies elsewhere. Maybe starting with the media and their 'if it bleeds, it leads' approach to selling copy. Individuals passing on endless anecodtal stories about rapes / muggings / imminent risk of the sky falling on our heads. And lastly, maybe the self defence industry itself, which depends upon a constant stream of 'vulernable' people for its livelihood.

I was reading through page 2, had my post written in my head and along comes Scramble and says it all for me.:)

Ok Liam, Michael and co. I have no problem with people training martial arts in any shape or form so now its time to ask a few pertinent questions...

Self-defence can be considered self-preservation, survival etc.

In my opinion (probably backed up by statistics) if survival of you as a person in this world is a concern then I would consider the following of prime importance...

a) Physical Health
1) Controlling obesity
2) Watching your intake of processed foods i.e. carcinogens
3) Exercising your body regularily and safely avoiding injury


b) Mental Health
1) Being content with your direction in life
2) Having balanced well intentioned people around you
3) Being challenged mentally by your daily life

c) Financial Health
1) Being in a position to provide for yourself
2) Being in a position to provide for yourself in the future
3) Being in a position to provide for those reliant on you

d) Social Health
1) Being able to have healthy interactions with those closest to you
2) Being able to have healthy interactions with acquaintances/workmates/etc.
3) Being able to have healthy interactions with strangers

Now to be honest if self preservation is your goal then things that are more likely to save your skin are...
-Being able to speak one or more foreign languages
-Being able to engage with a variety of people
-Having a manner that puts people at ease and doesnt provoke people
-Knowing first aid
-Practising taking out your phone and calling the police (reflexes needed for speedy phone drawing)
-Meeting a partner and procreating (having someone to care for you later in life which is important for survival)


How many people who consider carrying special quick draw knives consider carrying special quick draw speeddial phones to get the cops there...?

Colum

Dragan

To be honest dude, i'm not too sure why we are all talking health all of a sudden. I'm not really seeing the correlation at all. I have gone to "self defence glasses" because i was interested in "defending myself" , i have done kick boxing because i was interested in that, i go to the gym every day to get "healthier" and "stronger".

People study in self defence and in martial arts ( and i'm sure if you all go around your glass, regardless of the art you will find a few people who will say they started because they wanted to be able to defend themselves ) simply because they have the desire to do so, if does not strictly need to achieve anything and cement it's place in some sort of Maslow's theory at all. By your own argument, why would anyone spend time doing anything that does not involve getting food, shelter or a good ride????? if we want to break things down that far that is.

To be honest dude, i'm not too sure why we are all talking health all of a sudden.

Because self defence=self preservation=survival and if people say they're all about survival yet are spending a disproportionate amount of time working on things less likely to help them survive at the expense of things that are more likely to help them survive then I think they're fooling themselves.

I train for fun and not for self defence. If I was REALLY REALLY concerned about self defence=survival I'd run more and probably eat less junk and processed food. But really I'm a bit rubbish at the whole survival thing tbh. The amount of aspartame I consume on a day to day basis is a 100x factor of danger to my life than the lack of knife work in my MMA training or the fact that I'm predisposed to grappling.

Tim_Murphy

I train and teach solely for self-defence.

If a few years down the line you decided you weren’t enjoying your training anymore would you still keep it up purely for SD reasons?

I was at the seminar as well. What did you think of it overall?

I was at that seminar too, although I interpeted what was said in a different way. The point I took away was that if someone is sincere about being safer, then fighting skills would be addressed after more statistically-likely causes of death or serious injury, like heart disease. It would come after improvements in your diet, the amount you exercise, the amount you drink, your knowledge of first aid, how you behave on the roads.

Suppose instead of spending the bulk of their time addressing the above, someone spends several hours a week training with the intention of learning to resist criminal assault, rehearsing knife defence, learning about the psychology of predators and victims and whatnot, then sharing information and talking about it on the internet each day. Taken in conjunction with the fact that we live in one of the safest countries in western europe, then I think they probably would benefit from examining what their real motivations are, because something is off. A disproportionate amount of time would be being spent preparing for an event that is statistically highly unlikely. I think a more honest explanation would be that time is spent this way because they enjoy this type of training and learning about this area. This then begs the question- Is it a bit of harmless Walter Mitty-esque fun, or is there something a bit sad about it...?

Yes, that is what I took from it too. Colum has made some very good points on this issue.

Dragan

columok wrote:

self defence=self preservation=survival

em.....not really, no. Self defence equals self defence really , thats about as far as it goers. You can't really apply the "if your worried about survival you should worry about diet/money/happiness etc" why not go to the extreme of "your more likely to get hit by a car than get stabbed to death, so why do you go outside to get to your self defence class when you should stay inside".

Of all the people i know that go to anyform of self defence class, we're not sitting around coming up with imaginary scenario's going "Wow, and if someone tries to knife me, now i'll be able to do this!!!" We are well aware that all we are doing is mildly improving our chances. But when it comes to sitting at home watching Corrie because herself wants to or being out doing something like this i will choose this anyday. I go to the class, we all have a laugh and a chat and learn some new things and try them out and then we go home.

I go to the gym twice daily 5 days a week. One cardio session a day, and one weights session a day. I do watch very carefully what i eat and try and avoid any kind of fast or processed food. I like to cook my own meals as much as i can. At the moment i have a good job that satifies me with the work i do and the results i acheive. It challenges me but does not overly stress me and for this work i am handsomely rewarded in the grand scale of things. I live in a lovely area, in a beautiful apartment. I have a loving girlfriend. I have a loving family. I have a good close circle of friends who care for me and vice versa. I have a healthy and active social life and i am very calm, stable and most people who meet me for the first time seem to like me and i try and get on well with everyone.

I think i am meeting everything on your list so is it okay with you if i do some self defence now????

I'm not being sarcastic or smart, i'm just pointing out that you don't have any interest in "survival" and neither do I. I just what to learn something. And right now i want to learn this. In 12 months time i will most likely be doing BJJ or MMA, call me a dabbler if you will.

judomick

Michael what was it that you thought i was thinking?


has anyone asked themselves the question of why they train?

heres how my thought process go's

why do i train ?
because i want to compete
why?
because i like competing
why ?
because it makes me feel good


so there you go everyone trains because its fun and it makes them feel good, our reasons for starting martial arts may differ, health interest, fighting, self defence etc,
but the reason we continue to train is because we enjoy it anyone who doesnt i think does need a therapist because i think they have issues

Michael you also seemed cool, could you give us a run down of how the seminar was for you i would be interested in your feedback, for personal curiosity

Tim_Murphy

Guys, forget this STAB business, it's good all right, but there's much better out there!
http://www.hwarangdo.tv/videos/FSDanbongMLdsl.mov

Dave Joyce

Can all the MMA guys answer the guys who advocate RBSD in this thread (including myself!) the question are we either stupid, constantly looking for fights or paranoid. Because I know quite a few of these guys here and I know for a fact that they don't cause fights, know for a fact that they're not paranoid and are not stupid as the vast majority of people (let alone MAists or hopefully even MMAists) would walk away from a fight if possible, however, a number of posters have pointed out and its carefully avoided that sometimes its not an option because they may have their partner or kids with them, so what do you guys do then run off and leave them behind. We're also not talking drunken gob****es who can be talked out of hassle but scumbags who want to cause GBH!!

Its amazing how MMA guys can lecture RBSD guys about the street and "effective" training and yet I'd love to hear their reaction if guys who have no interest in sport started lecturing them about competing and preparing for a sporting contest.

In a previous thread a number of MMAers castigated TMA for giving ethic/moral training incorporated into their systems, yet now they lecture us about being fit, healthy and "friendly". Fuvk me talk about the pot calling the kettle black or is that statement politically incorrect?

For those living in their safe world since New Years Eve and I know I've missed a couple of incidents there have been at least 11 stabbings with I think 2 of those fatal in the 32 counties the majority on the east coast.

As a matter of interest, those who have advocated the STAB programme (btw I thought Karl Tanswell came up with this programme AFTER being stabbed so how is it pressure tested?), how often do you practise this exact programme as opposed to just grappling?

silat liam

columok wrote:

I was reading through page 2, had my post written in my head and along comes Scramble and says it all for me.:)

Ok Liam, Michael and co. I have no problem with people training martial arts in any shape or form so now its time to ask a few pertinent questions...

Self-defence can be considered self-preservation, survival etc.

In my opinion (probably backed up by statistics) if survival of you as a person in this world is a concern then I would consider the following of prime importance...

a) Physical Health
1) Controlling obesity
2) Watching your intake of processed foods i.e. carcinogens
3) Exercising your body regularily and safely avoiding injury


b) Mental Health
1) Being content with your direction in life
2) Having balanced well intentioned people around you
3) Being challenged mentally by your daily life

c) Financial Health
1) Being in a position to provide for yourself
2) Being in a position to provide for yourself in the future
3) Being in a position to provide for those reliant on you

d) Social Health
1) Being able to have healthy interactions with those closest to you
2) Being able to have healthy interactions with acquaintances/workmates/etc.
3) Being able to have healthy interactions with strangers

Now to be honest if self preservation is your goal then things that are more likely to save your skin are...
-Being able to speak one or more foreign languages
-Being able to engage with a variety of people
-Having a manner that puts people at ease and doesnt provoke people
-Knowing first aid
-Practising taking out your phone and calling the police (reflexes needed for speedy phone drawing)
-Meeting a partner and procreating (having someone to care for you later in life which is important for survival)


How many people who consider carrying special quick draw knives consider carrying special quick draw speeddial phones to get the cops there...?

Colum

Hi Colum
Not sure where you going with this. The thread was about the realities of a knife attack and what would happen if you tried to wrestle or grapple with the attackers. I understand the flavour of your message and those point are all very important. Silat is not just a self defence system Its a traditional Martial art and most people who do silat try it for a variety of reasons. Learning to defend themselves, getter fitter, and trying a new hobby are probely the three main reasons. This is what we advertise ourselves at, but going by your remarks you are now talking about mental health / social health and Financial Health. How many of the MMA guys actually teach Internal and mental training, using meditation and other forms to help focus, de stress and bring direction to the mind for the every day world. I was under the impression this was made fun off by the majority of MMA guy (Maybe I wrong in this thinking)I dont know what you teach, but I def dont talk about Financial Health what Martial arts teacher would you go to, to talk about investments and mortages. People dont ask this of a Martial Arts teacher they go to class to learn a martial art. I think this thread has kinda run out of steam and has move to other directions.

Musashi

Quote-Silat Liam

I do know, however, that I can walk safely around my little town of Dungarvan - population 8,000 - on dark streets without worry

I guess the author of this hasn't noticed the boys in and out of prison, or the growing Cocaine problem here then? No mention made of the at least four stabbings and several more beatings of last year, including one which is now a murder investigation? The crime reports from this "safe" town are bad enough, we don't need to go to Dublin or Cork for it.

Just yesterday a mate of mine was asked by Gardai to make a statement concerning an assault on his GF on a night out. The guy who attacked her and her female friend is currently having a file prepared by the DPP regarding a previous assault, where he broke the arm of a mobile chip van operator. This guy wouldn't even be one of the worst in town for this kind of carry on.
I know at least two guys who go armed at all times as they've stabbed each other previously while serving in Cork prison. I know two more who took beatings, one with a hammer and one a pool cue from local thugs. There's two guys in town with severe facial scars from attacks, on Stanley knife type and one with a nail in a stick. The guy took the nail to the face had an arguement with a crowd who entered a function in a local hotel and started drinking peoples pints. A while after the people at the function were told their bus had arived but waiting outside was a tooled up mob who beat hell out of them. Does this mean we should avoid IFA socials as well?

My point is this is just a small percentage of the stuff going on here in a smallish town that I know has happened off the top of my head. So there's no point saying it doesn't or won't once you eat right, exercise and avoid bad people and areas. All areas have the potential to be bad areas.

As for my being unhealthily fixated or something, guess I'll just have to live with it

silat liam

Hi Dave
Well written, totally agree with you on those points.

Liam

padraigcarroll

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Judomick has bicep sliced the correct.

There is no excuse for being overweight: genetic predisposition, viral theory of obesity be damned. Energy In and Energy Out, balance these and you won't gain weight.

gotta disagree!

while being 100% correct about Energy in versus Energy out, you're 100% wrong about there being no excuse for being overweight. eating disorders are rife in society and are the reason for obesity. People don't just decide to eat untill they are obese, in fact the decision is no more in their hands than it is in the hands of a heroin addict who knows he is poisoning himself with drugs, but cannot stop, or even a smoker that cannot quit.

Being over weight is a psychological state rather than a physical state.

Im not saying you cannot ballance input and output to maintain weight or to achieve a desired result (weight gain or loss), but a lot of people suffer from eating disorders and simply dont know how to, or even why what is happening to them, is occurring.

judomick

padraigcarroll wrote:

you're 100% wrong about there being no excuse for being overweight. eating disorders are rife in society and are the reason for obesity.

Being over weight is a psychological state rather than a physical state.

good point padraig although i think most eatin disorders would focus on people not eating anyways if it is a psychological state then these people need professional help, all the other over weight people basically eat too much and dont exercise enough, i cant see this point being debatable

also i see no-one has answered ultimately why they train? is there an answer there that upsets people? you guys dont want to enjoy it?

Dave Joyce

also i see no-one has answered ultimately why they train? is there an answer there that upsets people? you guys dont want to enjoy it?

Thats not accurate for a start, as Liam and Michael have both answered! Are you suggesting anyone in particular?

if someone says i train self defence/martial arts for self preservation i
say their full of ****

And I think that statement is a crock, as its one of the main reasons A LOT of people take up MARTIAL arts! Apart from being very inspired by Bruce Lee in the late '70's, I was also a coward which I hated and thought MA would help me overcome this, which it has. Now I totally enjoy my training, but still train for self protection reasons, (although I have competed and thoroughly enjoyed it in a number of areas), those of protecting my family and myself if needs be. I have also noticed you and others have failed to answer the questions I posed.

There is no excuse for being overweight: genetic predisposition, viral theory of obesity be damned. Energy In and Energy Out, balance these and you won't gain weight.

What a friggin crass statement! Wow, some of you guys must have your lives planned out really well and already know, family/mid life won't be affecting you or your MMA training.....well that is if you're still training MMA when you're in mid-life.

Columok has essentially answered any questions regarding knife defence and STAB/grappling so I won't reiterate them.
Really??

Roper

This debate is heading fast towards over-polarisation. People are beginning to state things that I think on second reading they might reconsider. With that it mind, here's some thoughts you might all consider.

1. There is violent crime in Ireland. But it's not as prevalant as some would have you believe. Some people live in areas where they might feel more under threat than others and might feel they require self-defence training. I don't think it's fair to lump all of these people into on "crazy psycho SD guy" bundle. It's very easy to be on the outside (like me) of a situation where somebody feels under threat and to say "have no fear". Personally, I think such training places you in a fear cycle. Train cos afraid, afraid cos train.....

2. While I broadly agree with some of the sentiments expressed regarding health issues, particularly regarding the dangers of heart disease vs. the dangers of the STREET, I fundamentally disagree with the comments regarding obesity. It's once again very, very easy for a psychologically and physically healthy person from a good background to point the finger and shout "fat". This belies all the research done on obesity from a sociological and psychological perspective that indicated that social class and psychological ill-health are contributary factors in obesity. To make some of the comments above smacks of an elitist mentality. To say there's no excuse for being overweight is an odd thing to say which fails to take into account lifestyles etc. I'll probably never be badly overweight, but since fatherhood I've been unable to train half as much as before and I've noticed a bit of weight going on by my standards. If you were talking about someone living a sedentary lifestyle due to pure laziness... well that's different, but it's still a lifestyle choice and it remains their choice no matter how much I might disagree with it.

Dave Joyce,
I take your points. But the thread that spawned this thread was started by someone to get a reaction out of grapplers. You can't say he's not getting what he wanted!

Colm_OReilly

You know what, I started writing a reply but just couldn't be bothered.

I'm off to do something more productive to me.

MaxBax

seriously, dave joyce et al pleaes look at the attached image.

padraigcarroll

judomick wrote:

i think most eatin disorders would focus on people not eating anyways if it is a psychological state then these people need professional help, all the other over weight people basically eat too much and dont exercise enough, i cant see this point being debatable

also i see no-one has answered ultimately why they train? is there an answer there that upsets people? you guys dont want to enjoy it?

Hey Mick!

well, I'd partially disagree and definitely debate it!

not eating... ie. anorexia (not sure if there are other starvation types???) is one type.
Bulimia is another, binging and regurgitation but not starvation/not eating

imo and afaik, binge eating disorder (over eating/comfort eating/emotional eating - all same thing) is the most common eating disorder, but people dont know much about it, hence obese/fat people are often looked down upon, as being lethargic/lazy people that just wont get up and excercise/eat less or what have ya.

No-one chooses to be that fat, and its certainly not a part of human nature. The problems start from adolescence or even earlier, and in most cases aren't ever addressed.

Dont get me wrong, im not saying every fat person is there from binge eating, but imo most of them are. Like you say they basically eat too much, but they cannot control it, and there are reasons for it.

Not having control over your eating habits is a scary thought, and yes you're right, anyone that suffers from that type of disorder needs help, and there is help there in the form of cognitive behavioural therapy, but most people never know what they have or how to fix it.

If you think it's not quite as widespread as I say or that i exaggerate, walk into easons and see how many diet books are in the health section. It's unreal.
These books are proof of the Millions of people worldwide that cannot control their weight,dont know why, but are trying to do something about it (ie. they are reaching out for help albeit in the form of a diet that will never work permanently). Same as most heavyweight boxers, when they stop gym'ing it/dieting, their eating spirals outta control (or possibly stays the same but the lack of loadfs of excercise now doesnt keep the fat at bay) and they put on lots of body fat.

Michael O Leary

Hi Dragan,

I wish I had your life

Hi Scramble,:)

Nice to talk to you. I don't think we have written directly before. Did we talk at the seminar? Some of your point are pretty valid however you are a lot more diplomatic than the instructor. I didn't mind his 20 rant on Wing Tsun/Wing Chun & Silat being crap however he actually did basically say, (and I can't remember his exact words), that if you train for self-defence then you are better off seeing a therapist as you have emotional problems. This for me is silly but then he is an American with a product to sell. You are also more diplomatic than Judo Mick who feels we SD people are full of ****.

Hi Colum,

A lot of your points on self-preservation are valid but whilst one spends time working on their financial, mental, emotional, social and physical health all it can take is one bad incident to ruin it all. Granted statictically the chance may be small however the same could be said for wearing seatbelts, I don't want to be that 0.5%.

Hi Judo Mick and Tim,

Overall the seminar was pretty good. For further details you can ask JK. By the way I would like to thank everyone whom I trained with. As a "RAW" beginner I feel that I held some of my training partners back but everyone was very supporting and encouraging. Who was the fella that I did most of my training with? The one who looked like Ryan Tubridy? Lovely fella!

Regarding why I personally do martial arts, I do it both to practise my self-defense skills and also to teach it to others. What would happen if I no longer enjoyed it? That happened to me in 2000 and I gave all martial arts up for one year, changed organisations and haven't look back since.

Why do I enjoy the self-defence aspect of it? There are many reasons however you can get bogged down in "paralysis by analysis". You can look at any reason for doing something and draw negative or positive conclusions. What "some" of the MMA people have done is to paint the motivations of self-defence people as somehow sinister. However we could compare two types of martial artists. One who trains in the hope that he will never have to use his skills and the other who trains so that in six months time he will elbow someone in face in a competition. Which is the most sinister? And to an onlooker, say someone in the basketball section, they would see all martial artists debating the best way to defeat someone as sinister. So the whole thing is highly subjective.

I personally feel that you MMA guys have enjoyed riding high on the crest of a wave for the past few years and fair play to you. You deserve it. The whole "Raison d'etre" of MMA was to find the best way to fight and yous have done pretty well. However now it seems that when we question the validity of grappling in a street fight your now saying we don't train for the street and anyone who does is unbalanced. The goalposts seem to be shifting.

Hi Roper,

I agree with you that we becoming polarised but disagree that we cannot find some common ground. Personally speaking I have attended 2 BJJ seminars now and have just finished the book, "Mastering JuJitsu" by Renzo Gracie. I am interested in coming to the new centre in tallaght in May and training some MT and BJJ. I can see value in what you do however some of the MMA guys need to meet us SD guys half way. When we draw attention to some self-defence aspect of BJJ or MMA, calling us names, saying we are full of ****, suggesting we are emotionally unbalanced will not bridge the divide and will ultimately inhibate growth as persons.

Regards all, (even Tim:p )

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie