My new article

Here's a copy and paste of an article I wrote. It's been inspired by the words of Mr. Murphy and Mr. Sanders.

Is fighting safe on the street? by Colum O'Keeffe

Today many people have been led to believe that this system or that system are the answer for winning many brutal street fights. I would like to address the fallacy of this thinking and hopefully enlighten many of our readers on the boards.

Fighting is never safe on the street. Whether you train 7 days a week as a professional fighter or weekends at a cardio boxing class. Bad things happen on the streets. Bad people happen on the streets. When you're outside of a night club and you get in a scrap you might be a great striker, a wonderful karateka or kung fu artist. You might be well versed in pressure points, No touch Kos or just have a mean right hook.

Either way to use such skills on an opponent on the street has many risks. You might get your fists cut on the guys teeth, you might break your hand, you might knock the guy down with his head hitting a kerb and splitting open, you might fall yourself and split your head open on a railing or bicycle rack. You might damage your karma by being in a fight in the first place.

There is one sure fire way to win any street encounter... any time any where with minimal training. Dont get in them in the first place. If you can avoid a scrap avoid it. Walk away, run away, get away from it. Appease the guy, let him call you all the names under the sun, walk away. There are no winners in a street fight.

So is fighting safe on the streets-with Silat or with Savate, with MMA or TMA? No. Fighting on the streets is never safe. So dont do it.

Colm_OReilly

If ever I would make another sticky it would be that post!

Roper

That's a copy and paste from the moral at then end of an old He-Man episode. Colum, plagiarism is a crime!

That's a copy and paste from the moral at then end of an old He-Man episode. Colum, plagiarism is a crime!

Curses! My secret has been found.

MaxBax

Nice essay.

Michael O Leary

In fairness Colum I do not think that anyone would disagree with you including Liam or William Saunders. The point being made is that "if" you have to fight then there is a difference in knowing what to do "if" you are brought to the ground and purposely bringing someone to the ground.

A MMA fight takes place in a reasonably safe environment where to my knowledge no-one has been killed yet. Compare that to people who have been killed in the street during the year from either getting stabbed or getting their head kicked in from multiple attackers.

So fighting in the street is not safe however if you have to do so some strategies would be safer than others. About 18 months ago I was attacked by 3 lads and ended up on the ground getting kicked in the head. Grappling in this situation would have been feck all use to me however my Wing Tsun came in fine and when things went against them "they" were the ones to run off.

"Some" MMA'ers are quick to say that high kicks or pressure points (for example) will not work in the street. All that Liam is doing is applying the same logic and questioning the validity of grappling in the street and I would agree with him.

Regards,:)

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Ah but Michael I read an Irish Fighter article written by William Sanders where a knife wielder threatens him and he provokes and taunts his attacker. He said something, after playing with the guy trying to stab him, that I was less than impressed with. I cant recall the exact quote and I wouldnt be silly enough to misquote him.

Also Sanders uses a disparaging tone when referring to "glorified tough man contests".

Tbh theres a little too much stabby stabby fixations to be healthy, in my opinion at least.

Michael O Leary

Hi Colum,

I cannot comment on the article you mentioned however we can still seperate the point from the person who makes it and I thought the point was a valid one. However I did not read all of Liam's original post as it was a bit too long. I have been guilty of that in the past myself.:D

The problem is with the nature of debate. In order for a person to make a point they draw extremes and compare the best in what they do to the worst in what others do. This is how propaganda works. So "some" sports orientated MMA'ers state that those who specialise in self-defence or blade work are a bit paranoid and psycotic. However we could claim that sports orientated martial artists are just egomaniacs who want to win titles. There are some reasons to elbow someone in the face. Is winning a title one of them?

I know this is a cop-out but I would say there are positive and negative elements in both approaches.

Regards,

Michael.
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

P.S. Good to talk to you again.:)

MaxBax

Who are these sanders guys? please don't say the guy from eurosport cos that man is legend.

Clive

Michael O Leary wrote:

There are some reasons to elbow someone in the face. Is winning a title one of them?

That, and it's fun!

MaxBax

Clive wrote:

That, and it's fun!

It's wrong to hit people.

Good to talk to you too Michael.

Another reason not to admire the guy. He hates and I mean HATES bears of all shapes and forms.

http://www.cimande.com/about/bio.htm
Between pulling their hair and shooting them with bows and arrows no wonder he gets in so many PETA related knife fights.

Michael O Leary

Clive wrote:

That, and it's fun!

Clive

MaxBax wrote:

It's wrong to hit people.

Not if it's in the dark - then it's a victimless crime.

Michael O Leary

columok wrote:

Good to talk to you too Michael.

Another reason not to admire the guy. He hates and I mean HATES bears of all shapes and forms.

http://www.cimande.com/about/bio.htm
Between pulling their hair and shooting them with bows and arrows no wonder he gets in so many PETA related knife fights.

Hmmm.:( I'll say nothin. G' night all. (g'night john boy)

Michael.
www.wi (ah, you know the rest)

silat liam

columok wrote:

Ah but Michael I read an Irish Fighter article written by William Sanders where a knife wielder threatens him and he provokes and taunts his attacker. He said something, after playing with the guy trying to stab him, that I was less than impressed with. I cant recall the exact quote and I wouldnt be silly enough to misquote him.

Also Sanders uses a disparaging tone when referring to "glorified tough man contests".

Tbh theres a little too much stabby stabby fixations to be healthy, in my opinion at least.

Hi Columok
Here is the quote from the article you are referring to

"A person who is confident and assumes the Cimande on guard knife position is less likely to even be attack than most other ready positions. A few years back I was attacked by a man with two knives, assuming the position he only made one weak attempt to close with me and when he saw what he was getting he wound up leaving. I said to him you got two knives and what are you afraid of? He made the right decision as at that point with him having two blades" I can honestly say this is the only defence I have seen that when faces with a real situation, I felt totally confident with. Through the years I have had matches with individuals using wooden and rubber knives. Some were so called experts, Navy Seals etc… The wooden knives break bones with these techniques and the rubber ones cut very easy. Nothing is guaranteed to work every time but this is the best insurance policy I know of when faced with a knife Wielding assailant."

Columok. Your remarks were way out of context, what he was talking here about in that article was the delievery system of the blade defence which is call "Shock and Shatter" where the principle is to destroy the hand or limb holding or using the blade. The talking which you describe as taunts is completely misdiscribe by you. Taunting a knife weiding attacker would be so very wrong and dangerous. But Talking is often used as a way of confusing, or calming an attacker down. Knowing how to use the tone in your voice, the manner of how you hold your body can be life saving and be better than fighting . Talking is also used to confused the mind of an attacker. It is a tactic used by many good street fighter or thugs as a way of closing the gap in a street fight, or taking the edge of the person they are defending with. Its a tactic used by negotiators to talk in a calm way to undermind kidnappers or hostage takers and even use by great Muhammad Ali in the ring as he was know to talk before, during and after a fight to his opponents. The rest of the article was to do with this.

I totally agree with the article "Is fighting on the street safe" and running away is cool, but what happens if you cant run away either because your escape route is closed off, our you there with your children or girlfriend or mother. It was just a question. If you believe what you learn in class will protect you from a knife attacker(s) than fair play to you. It doesnt matter if you do wing chun, karate, MMA, Silat, Hong Kong fuey. It you can make it work against a blade thats great. I thought this would be a good topic to talk about after reading on another thread in this forum about should we carry knives on us. Knife defence is a reality for Dublin 2006 and if you are saying to your students dont worry about knives, just run away, you are not been fair or honest to your students.To answer where are the Saunders guys. There right here in Dublin, Ballymena, Letterkenny, Liverpool, London, Tampere, and even now in the Congo in Africa and soon to be Spain, Portugal and Italy so we about.

But for more details of where to find us or train in the Cimande system check out www.silateurope.com

Musashi

In fairness we all have common sense. This tells us the best fight, street or otherwise, is one we are not involved in. The best way to deal with a knife attack is not be attacked, or get away as soon as possible. Same for multiples, muggings, rapings, gangland shootings etc. etc.

The problem arises where getting away means leaving wife,GF,BF, signifigant Other or a dependant behind, be they a minor, disabled in some way or just slower than yourself. Muggings and bad things happen, even if we live monkish lives and stay away from bad areas and bars. Why would you try rob someone in a poor area when the rich live and play in the more rarefied areas? So predators will travel and seek out victims. Victim selection and how not to get selected are a big part of RBSD, with no fighting being done you start to defend yourself by being a more difficult target than the next guy. It's not all paranoia and "stabby stabby"

I would ask the MMA community onboard if they take any precautions as to their personal safety besides training flying triangles and stuff? Do ye profile strangers approaching ye, not wear personal stereos when out running late at night, decide in advance and mentally rehearse possible responses to being accosted on the road, on a bus, in your home? Or does having a good attitude and MMA training make you safer in and of itself ?

Hell, we can all agree in some ways that fighting will bring "bad karma" or some equivalent, yet Mick Leonard breaking some guys arm was portrayed in a more positive light on another thread as proof that clinch can defeat punchers/strikers? So is breaking arms ok now? Or is MMA the only sport where it's ok to injure your opponnent, now that Rugby and GAA ban players for it and court cases often arise from these incidents? I would submit that a high incidence of serious injuries like these will eventually lead to a death in the ring ( going by Industrial Health and Safety Figures) and can only lead to calls for the sports banning, in much the same fashion as Boxing and other so called "blood sports".

Musashi,

I would say that most muggings can be dealt with quickly and safely by - handing over your cash and going to the cops.

Or does having a good attitude and MMA training make you safer in and of itself ?

I would say being in good shape, being confident and having nothing to prove are the ways to go. If you do get attacked without a knife in my opinion MMA training is the training thats likely gonna help you out if something bad happens. With a knife well theres the STAB program- which used greco roman wrestling fundamentals...

yet Mick Leonard breaking some guys arm was portrayed in a more positive light on another thread as proof that clinch can defeat punchers/strikers?

Hardly positive. Mick held the guy in the position and he wouldnt tap. Mick kept looking at the referee and gave the guy plenty of time. If anything that anecdote shows that a) some people need to learn when to tap and b) no grappling isnt very useful in a one on one fight. The tap is there for a reason- for fighter safety. Its has to be universally respected by both the submitter and the submitted. When either doesnt occur then there is a serious problem. Anyone who in my eyes says "Never tap!!!!" is an idiot and is not only damaging MY sport but is breaking a cardinal rule and forcing someone to injure them

Dragan

columok wrote:

I would say that most muggings can be dealt with quickly and safely by - handing over your cash and going to the cops.

To be honest dude, i wouldn't. When i was 17 and i tried this great technique all i got a was a hiding for my troubles, a friend of mine in school was stabbed, and she did the same.

Lets face it guys, the folks here who learn and train most techniques like BJJ and MMA, they are not doing so from a self defence point of few, and to be honest, were i to contract JK and go to a class and here the words "on the street" i would be a little upset. I would have no interest in that side of things, as i'm sure a huge amount of people don't. I don't go to the gym twice a day, 5 days a week to get stronger for striking people, or picking them up and throwing them, or to work on my endurance so i can beat them up for longer. I go to get healthier and stronger and it has nothing to do with fighting, the same way i do kickboxing to improve myself, and Silat to improve myself.

I don't think it's right to attack something or someone who trains for a sport because we don't see it as practical.

Is it useful to have this strenght, and some striking and some self defence should something occur, yes it is. But i would never expect it to save my life.

When doing door work there was a knife pulled on one of two occassions, and my physical abilites never came into it, everything was just a talk down situation. There was no running here, i was responsible for the safety of others and that was priority one, however, i was never going to tangle with the knife wielder. It is rare than someone will draw a knife and talk and have a solid intention to use it, so the opportuinity is there to talk them out of something that they may regret.

Let us not confuse training for sport and training for other reasons folks. And let us not assume that because we would try and avoid or walk away from fights that no harm shall come to us.

There are situations when we simply have no choice but to take what is coming to us and hope we get through it.

Ask a friend of mine who was glassed in the face outside a pub in town while having a cigarette.....simply because he had been talking to a girl. The result, 67 stitches.
Ask a friend of mine who was attacked with a rock on a bus simply because he looked like someone else. The result, a broken cheek bone, a shattered occular socket and over 30 stitches.
Ask a friend of mine who was gunned down outside his house simply for having done his job and done it well.

To be honest folks some people here need to get over this "my art keeps me safe" or "you can always walk away". Guess what. You can't.

Sure, walk away if you can, but be willing and able to defend yourself should you need to. And hope to Christ that you get the chance.

Roper

I agree to with Michael when he says

In order for a person to make a point they draw extremes and compare the best in what they do to the worst in what others do

But this debate is like comparing the high jump with curling, there is no real common ground.

The trouble with this debate is that the two sides have no common frame of reference. One side trains for a sporting contest, the other for a street conflict. Having never trained for the STREET I cannot understand the mindset of that type of person. Equally, Liam seems to have some difficulty understanding the mindset of a sportsman.

This always seems difficult to grasp, but if you asked the average amateur boxer, who by the way would probably hand all of us our asses;) to participate in this debate he probably wouldn't bother with it. He's a sportsman, what would be the point?

silat liam

columok wrote:

Musashi,

I would say being in good shape, being confident and having nothing to prove are the ways to go. If you do get attacked without a knife in my opinion MMA training is the training thats likely gonna help you out if something bad happens. With a knife well theres the STAB program- which used greco roman wrestling fundamentals...


Here is a article that was wrote by Marc (Animal) Mac Young who is a top self defence Instructor in USA. It dealing with reality of knife attacks. www.nonsenceselfdefence.com

Grappling with a knife
By Marc Mc Young

I was in Germany with a group of martial artists teaching "street knife work." While demonstrating an empty-handed with one of them, he tackled me and took me to the ground (This is no big deal as when I do demo's I don't allow "courtesy attacks." I insist people attack me like they would were it a real fight -- this occasionally means that I get slugged or taken down. This was one of those times). Anyway, when we hit the floor I realized that there was no way I could contest this guys strength, he was a bull, full of muscle and grappling skill. The thing was I had landed next to a practice knife that I calmly picked up and dragged it across his throat.

We stood up and his eyes were the size of saucers because he realized what the significance of what had just happened. A knife had come out of nowhere and had this been real, he would have been dead. The amazing thing was is there were only a few other people there who did too. On of the bigger proponents of grappling stood there and said, "He tackled you." To which I replied, "Yes, and I slit his throat" "But, he tackled you."

In their minds there was no difference in the levels of damage. The fact that I had been taken down counted the same as a knife across the throat. Personally, I'll take getting slammed to the ground any day over getting my throat slit.

The myth of grappling is that it works everywhere. The fact that it proved so successful in the UFC ring has blinded many people to the fact that there are critical differences between fighting barehanded and fighting with weapons. While empty-hand fighting might easily turn into an endurance marathon, where size, strength, physical shape and ability to endure punishment significantly influence the outcome of an altercation, that is not applicable to weapons work. In that arena, every man bleeds the same.

Oh yeah, remember how I said bio-mechanical cutting did have validity to it about the damage a knife can cause? What makes you think you can keep on fighting with that kind of damage being done to you? All a guy has to do is cut you a few times to seriously reduce your ability to move and then wait while you bleed out. Now the really bad news, being pumped up on adrenalin is going to make that happen faster, the higher your heart rate, the faster you bleed out and lose strength. All he has to do is out wait for your strength to fail before finishing the job.

Do not attempt to "grapple" with a knifer. Once on the ground, you are not guaranteed to be able to control his knife arm well enough to prevent him from carving you up. If it were a barehanded fight, then you can often prevent him from being able to generate enough power to effectively strike you, but a knife doesn't need power, it just needs to touch you. And if you are attempting to control his arm while on the ground, he will wiggle free and repeatedly cut you until you can no longer continue to resist.

Now for the fun news, I know of a small knife being manufactured that is called the "clinch pick." A small concealable -- and easily accessible -- knife, that can be rammed into a grappler's guts and chest three or four times before the grappler knows it is there. Where it is carried makes it nearly impossible for the grappler to prevent its deployment. When you realize he has it, it is too late....

Roper

What's going on here folks, are we training for a post-apocalyptic nightmare world in which everyone carries knives and weapons around? Is this Thunderdome? I live in Dublin, it's not always safe but it's not Escape from New York either.

Liam, we can all copy and paste, I'd like to hear you argue your points, not some "expert". And I've read about "Animal" McYoung, and he seems to me to have been in an awful lot of streetfights. That to me is the total opposite to anyone I want teaching me self defence. I'll take the guy who's avoided them thanks.

Yet, as one who lived despite the blood-splattered streets, MacYoung knows that survival isn’t a matter of how "tough" you are or your ability to fight. Nor is it how many stripes you have on a black belt or how many tournaments you’ve won. Although some physical skill is indeed necessary, survival is more a matter of knowledge and awareness. And that is what he stresses. Without those two key elements, you won’t make it out of a dark and lonely parking lot.

So, he's been in 1000's of streetfights, but now he wants to lecture US on awareness?

Dragan

Roper wrote:

So, he's been in 1000's of streetfights, but now he wants to lecture US on awareness?

Are you trying to say that no-one can change there ways??? Maybe he was a bit rough and tumble in his younger days, hell, maybe he was until yesterday but as of now he just seems to be trying to make people aware of the dangers that do exist.

You said yourself that people train for different reasons. As for the part about everyone carrying knifes and guns around, nope, not everyone does. But right now, someone, somewhere is dealing with someone who does. What makes you think it will never be you? Is it not better to be prepared than not be prepared?

I'm not getting on one side of the other here, i'm just playing devils advocate with points that i would like to get answers to, so please don't feel like i'm disagreeing with you in any way, just asking you a question is all.

silat liam

Roper wrote:

What's going on here folks, are we training for a post-apocalyptic nightmare world in which everyone carries knives and weapons around? Is this Thunderdome? I live in Dublin, it's not always safe but it's not Escape from New York either.

Liam, we can all copy and paste, I'd like to hear you argue your points, not some "expert". And I've read about "Animal" McYoung, and he seems to me to have been in an awful lot of streetfights. That to me is the total opposite to anyone I want teaching me self defence. I'll take the guy who's avoided them thanks.

So, he's been in 1000's of streetfights, but now he wants to lecture US on awareness?

Hi
You only have to read the daily papers to realise there is danger out there. I dont think Marc Mc Young was in actually in 1000's of fights. I say that was hype. But at the end of the day would you not rather learn how to defend yourself by learning from someone who has survive a knife attack than someone who has learnt from a book or dvd or maybe just did a weekend course. All my teachers have experience Knife situation. One of them fought in a knife fighting contests in Pendang behind closed doors. Another teacher I learnt from is a militart Commander and another has taught Federal forces in USA. Myself personally I been very lucky never to get involve as my work doesnt take me there to often. But I glad of what I learnt from these guys as they experience it.

To give you a comparrison of what you saying. If you wanting to learn about sex, would you go to a virgin or to someone who experience sex. You decide but by your statement you would go to a virgin. Why??? If you wanted a builder to build you a house, would you not go to someone who has plenty of experience to draw apon or would you go to someone fresh out of school, by your statement you would go to the school leaver why??? Would you not go to the best person in that field and learn from them. This is a free country so you have the right to decide. Awareness is perfect and it should be taught first but what happens it awareness fails you, either by your mistake or bad luck. This is what I'm talking at.

I just using cut and paste as the vast majority on this forum is from one group and I'm using these paste as a way to support my views. And there only my views. I just helping people to understand the reality of the knife.

Roper

Dragan wrote:

But right now, someone, somewhere is dealing with someone who does.

I don't doubt that training for a knife is a valid way of training. Of course it is, there is a harsh reality that some people do use knives to attack people and if you want to train for it, off you go. I think unless your job puts you in that position on a regular basis you're probably wasting your time when you could be doing something far healthier.

Liam,
My point is that this guy, MacYoung, is lecturing on how to avoid fights and conflict when he has obviously been in an awful lot. Now in my experience, 90% of fights (that I've seen) could have been avoided very easily through talking, walking or running. Now it's all very well for this guy, with the beneift of age and hindsight to say "oh yeah I've made mistakes", but you know what? I've known what he's trying to tell me since I was about 12 years old and so have most healthy people.

But then again, healthy minded, non-paranoid individuals are probably not his audience are they?

Dragan

Roper wrote:

But then again, healthy minded, non-paranoid individuals are probably not his audience are they?

You know, for someone who pointed out that we all train for different reasons, you don't seem to have too much of a problem dogging on people who might train for reasons that you don't agree with or reasons that may be different to yours.

MaxBax

in reference to what roper says i recommend we all start a street-sport like skate boarding.

Roper

Dragan wrote:

You know, for someone who pointed out that we all train for different reasons, you don't seem to have too much of a problem dogging on people who might train for reasons that you don't agree with or reasons that may be different to yours.

You've misinterpreted me Dragan.
Training for self defence, the dreaded street, for competition is all good. Whatever floats your boat. But when it comes down to it, some people prey on others problems. Many people start martial arts because they've had experiences with bullying, or because they feel afraid constantly. There is a culture of fear in the western world, it's very easy to make money off it by telling people exactly what they want to hear.

Now for example, Millionaire who posts here makes no qualms about being primarily RBSD focussed, and while I'll probably never train that way, I can see that what he does is genuine as is his desire to do it. However when I see articles from notorious "street fighters" being posted, alarm bells ring.

I don't see a difference in Martial Arts from one "style" to another. It's all punching, kicking, striking locking grappling to me. Where I see distinctions is in psychology and methods, which are interlinked for the most part.

Now I could say to Liam, "thanks for posting that. See you soon". But that wouldn't be a very good debate would it?

judomick

id like everyone to ask this question why do i train? when you have
answered this then ask and what will that do for me

everyone regardless of what they train will eventually have the same answer

if someone says i train self defence/martial arts for self preservation i
say their full of ****

I think alot of people are naive about the reality of the dangers in society
the media sensationalises alot of topics to sell more papers the same with tv for
ratings

heres a non debatable fact

2003 52 people died from being attacked(whether it was a knife ,triangle
or multiple attackers with dildos and a flying monkey

2003 approx 15000 people died from heart related disease

im sure you agree theres a lesson there

Liam, Michael,Roper, Musashi, Colm etc if someone came to you who
was overweight and asked you about self defence would you tell them my martial art will
do that for you or would you tell them to go running twice a week and dont eat bad food?

Dragan

Roper wrote:

You've misinterpreted me Dragan.

In that case then i do apologise. I guess i was just reading things into the "healthier" line that were not there.

Roper

judomick wrote:

Liam, Michael,Roper, Musashi, Colm etc if someone came to you who
was overweight and asked you about self defence would you tell them my martial art will
do that for you or would you tell them to go running twice a week and dont eat bad food?

I'd tell them to get their lardy ass out of my gym and into weight watchers!:D

Case in point: I once had a kid who's mother enrolled him in MA because he was being bullied for being overweight. Now he's genetically pre-disposed to weight gain, but when he's being given a packet of crisps straight after training... well, I'm sure you take my point. She took him out after about 2 months when it "wasn't working". The kid was enjoying himself but hadn't beaten anyone up yet.... ugh, when I think of it I still get annoyed.:mad:


Damn it Dragan! Don't take my point, disagree then we can have endless hours of amusement!:D