My new article

columok

Here's a copy and paste of an article I wrote. It's been inspired by the words of Mr. Murphy and Mr. Sanders.

Is fighting safe on the street? by Colum O'Keeffe

Today many people have been led to believe that this system or that system are the answer for winning many brutal street fights. I would like to address the fallacy of this thinking and hopefully enlighten many of our readers on the boards.

Fighting is never safe on the street. Whether you train 7 days a week as a professional fighter or weekends at a cardio boxing class. Bad things happen on the streets. Bad people happen on the streets. When you're outside of a night club and you get in a scrap you might be a great striker, a wonderful karateka or kung fu artist. You might be well versed in pressure points, No touch Kos or just have a mean right hook.

Either way to use such skills on an opponent on the street has many risks. You might get your fists cut on the guys teeth, you might break your hand, you might knock the guy down with his head hitting a kerb and splitting open, you might fall yourself and split your head open on a railing or bicycle rack. You might damage your karma by being in a fight in the first place.

There is one sure fire way to win any street encounter... any time any where with minimal training. Dont get in them in the first place. If you can avoid a scrap avoid it. Walk away, run away, get away from it. Appease the guy, let him call you all the names under the sun, walk away. There are no winners in a street fight.

So is fighting safe on the streets-with Silat or with Savate, with MMA or TMA? No. Fighting on the streets is never safe. So dont do it.

Colm_OReilly

If ever I would make another sticky it would be that post!

Roper

That's a copy and paste from the moral at then end of an old He-Man episode. Colum, plagiarism is a crime!

columok

That's a copy and paste from the moral at then end of an old He-Man episode. Colum, plagiarism is a crime!

Curses! My secret has been found.

MaxBax

Nice essay.

Michael O Leary

In fairness Colum I do not think that anyone would disagree with you including Liam or William Saunders. The point being made is that "if" you have to fight then there is a difference in knowing what to do "if" you are brought to the ground and purposely bringing someone to the ground.

A MMA fight takes place in a reasonably safe environment where to my knowledge no-one has been killed yet. Compare that to people who have been killed in the street during the year from either getting stabbed or getting their head kicked in from multiple attackers.

So fighting in the street is not safe however if you have to do so some strategies would be safer than others. About 18 months ago I was attacked by 3 lads and ended up on the ground getting kicked in the head. Grappling in this situation would have been feck all use to me however my Wing Tsun came in fine and when things went against them "they" were the ones to run off.

"Some" MMA'ers are quick to say that high kicks or pressure points (for example) will not work in the street. All that Liam is doing is applying the same logic and questioning the validity of grappling in the street and I would agree with him.

Regards,:)

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

columok

Ah but Michael I read an Irish Fighter article written by William Sanders where a knife wielder threatens him and he provokes and taunts his attacker. He said something, after playing with the guy trying to stab him, that I was less than impressed with. I cant recall the exact quote and I wouldnt be silly enough to misquote him.

Also Sanders uses a disparaging tone when referring to "glorified tough man contests".

Tbh theres a little too much stabby stabby fixations to be healthy, in my opinion at least.

Michael O Leary

Hi Colum,

I cannot comment on the article you mentioned however we can still seperate the point from the person who makes it and I thought the point was a valid one. However I did not read all of Liam's original post as it was a bit too long. I have been guilty of that in the past myself.:D

The problem is with the nature of debate. In order for a person to make a point they draw extremes and compare the best in what they do to the worst in what others do. This is how propaganda works. So "some" sports orientated MMA'ers state that those who specialise in self-defence or blade work are a bit paranoid and psycotic. However we could claim that sports orientated martial artists are just egomaniacs who want to win titles. There are some reasons to elbow someone in the face. Is winning a title one of them?

I know this is a cop-out but I would say there are positive and negative elements in both approaches.

Regards,

Michael.
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

P.S. Good to talk to you again.:)

MaxBax

Who are these sanders guys? please don't say the guy from eurosport cos that man is legend.

Clive

Michael O Leary wrote:

There are some reasons to elbow someone in the face. Is winning a title one of them?

That, and it's fun!

MaxBax

Clive wrote:

That, and it's fun!

It's wrong to hit people.

columok

Good to talk to you too Michael.

Another reason not to admire the guy. He hates and I mean HATES bears of all shapes and forms.

http://www.cimande.com/about/bio.htm
Between pulling their hair and shooting them with bows and arrows no wonder he gets in so many PETA related knife fights.

Michael O Leary

Clive wrote:

That, and it's fun!

Clive

MaxBax wrote:

It's wrong to hit people.

Not if it's in the dark - then it's a victimless crime.

Michael O Leary

columok wrote:

Good to talk to you too Michael.

Another reason not to admire the guy. He hates and I mean HATES bears of all shapes and forms.

http://www.cimande.com/about/bio.htm
Between pulling their hair and shooting them with bows and arrows no wonder he gets in so many PETA related knife fights.

Hmmm.:( I'll say nothin. G' night all. (g'night john boy)

Michael.
www.wi (ah, you know the rest)

silat liam

columok wrote:

Ah but Michael I read an Irish Fighter article written by William Sanders where a knife wielder threatens him and he provokes and taunts his attacker. He said something, after playing with the guy trying to stab him, that I was less than impressed with. I cant recall the exact quote and I wouldnt be silly enough to misquote him.

Also Sanders uses a disparaging tone when referring to "glorified tough man contests".

Tbh theres a little too much stabby stabby fixations to be healthy, in my opinion at least.

Hi Columok
Here is the quote from the article you are referring to

"A person who is confident and assumes the Cimande on guard knife position is less likely to even be attack than most other ready positions. A few years back I was attacked by a man with two knives, assuming the position he only made one weak attempt to close with me and when he saw what he was getting he wound up leaving. I said to him you got two knives and what are you afraid of? He made the right decision as at that point with him having two blades" I can honestly say this is the only defence I have seen that when faces with a real situation, I felt totally confident with. Through the years I have had matches with individuals using wooden and rubber knives. Some were so called experts, Navy Seals etc… The wooden knives break bones with these techniques and the rubber ones cut very easy. Nothing is guaranteed to work every time but this is the best insurance policy I know of when faced with a knife Wielding assailant."

Columok. Your remarks were way out of context, what he was talking here about in that article was the delievery system of the blade defence which is call "Shock and Shatter" where the principle is to destroy the hand or limb holding or using the blade. The talking which you describe as taunts is completely misdiscribe by you. Taunting a knife weiding attacker would be so very wrong and dangerous. But Talking is often used as a way of confusing, or calming an attacker down. Knowing how to use the tone in your voice, the manner of how you hold your body can be life saving and be better than fighting . Talking is also used to confused the mind of an attacker. It is a tactic used by many good street fighter or thugs as a way of closing the gap in a street fight, or taking the edge of the person they are defending with. Its a tactic used by negotiators to talk in a calm way to undermind kidnappers or hostage takers and even use by great Muhammad Ali in the ring as he was know to talk before, during and after a fight to his opponents. The rest of the article was to do with this.

I totally agree with the article "Is fighting on the street safe" and running away is cool, but what happens if you cant run away either because your escape route is closed off, our you there with your children or girlfriend or mother. It was just a question. If you believe what you learn in class will protect you from a knife attacker(s) than fair play to you. It doesnt matter if you do wing chun, karate, MMA, Silat, Hong Kong fuey. It you can make it work against a blade thats great. I thought this would be a good topic to talk about after reading on another thread in this forum about should we carry knives on us. Knife defence is a reality for Dublin 2006 and if you are saying to your students dont worry about knives, just run away, you are not been fair or honest to your students.To answer where are the Saunders guys. There right here in Dublin, Ballymena, Letterkenny, Liverpool, London, Tampere, and even now in the Congo in Africa and soon to be Spain, Portugal and Italy so we about.

But for more details of where to find us or train in the Cimande system check out www.silateurope.com

Musashi

In fairness we all have common sense. This tells us the best fight, street or otherwise, is one we are not involved in. The best way to deal with a knife attack is not be attacked, or get away as soon as possible. Same for multiples, muggings, rapings, gangland shootings etc. etc.

The problem arises where getting away means leaving wife,GF,BF, signifigant Other or a dependant behind, be they a minor, disabled in some way or just slower than yourself. Muggings and bad things happen, even if we live monkish lives and stay away from bad areas and bars. Why would you try rob someone in a poor area when the rich live and play in the more rarefied areas? So predators will travel and seek out victims. Victim selection and how not to get selected are a big part of RBSD, with no fighting being done you start to defend yourself by being a more difficult target than the next guy. It's not all paranoia and "stabby stabby"

I would ask the MMA community onboard if they take any precautions as to their personal safety besides training flying triangles and stuff? Do ye profile strangers approaching ye, not wear personal stereos when out running late at night, decide in advance and mentally rehearse possible responses to being accosted on the road, on a bus, in your home? Or does having a good attitude and MMA training make you safer in and of itself ?

Hell, we can all agree in some ways that fighting will bring "bad karma" or some equivalent, yet Mick Leonard breaking some guys arm was portrayed in a more positive light on another thread as proof that clinch can defeat punchers/strikers? So is breaking arms ok now? Or is MMA the only sport where it's ok to injure your opponnent, now that Rugby and GAA ban players for it and court cases often arise from these incidents? I would submit that a high incidence of serious injuries like these will eventually lead to a death in the ring ( going by Industrial Health and Safety Figures) and can only lead to calls for the sports banning, in much the same fashion as Boxing and other so called "blood sports".

columok

Musashi,

I would say that most muggings can be dealt with quickly and safely by - handing over your cash and going to the cops.

Or does having a good attitude and MMA training make you safer in and of itself ?

I would say being in good shape, being confident and having nothing to prove are the ways to go. If you do get attacked without a knife in my opinion MMA training is the training thats likely gonna help you out if something bad happens. With a knife well theres the STAB program- which used greco roman wrestling fundamentals...

yet Mick Leonard breaking some guys arm was portrayed in a more positive light on another thread as proof that clinch can defeat punchers/strikers?

Hardly positive. Mick held the guy in the position and he wouldnt tap. Mick kept looking at the referee and gave the guy plenty of time. If anything that anecdote shows that a) some people need to learn when to tap and b) no grappling isnt very useful in a one on one fight. The tap is there for a reason- for fighter safety. Its has to be universally respected by both the submitter and the submitted. When either doesnt occur then there is a serious problem. Anyone who in my eyes says "Never tap!!!!" is an idiot and is not only damaging MY sport but is breaking a cardinal rule and forcing someone to injure them

Dragan

columok wrote:

I would say that most muggings can be dealt with quickly and safely by - handing over your cash and going to the cops.

To be honest dude, i wouldn't. When i was 17 and i tried this great technique all i got a was a hiding for my troubles, a friend of mine in school was stabbed, and she did the same.

Lets face it guys, the folks here who learn and train most techniques like BJJ and MMA, they are not doing so from a self defence point of few, and to be honest, were i to contract JK and go to a class and here the words "on the street" i would be a little upset. I would have no interest in that side of things, as i'm sure a huge amount of people don't. I don't go to the gym twice a day, 5 days a week to get stronger for striking people, or picking them up and throwing them, or to work on my endurance so i can beat them up for longer. I go to get healthier and stronger and it has nothing to do with fighting, the same way i do kickboxing to improve myself, and Silat to improve myself.

I don't think it's right to attack something or someone who trains for a sport because we don't see it as practical.

Is it useful to have this strenght, and some striking and some self defence should something occur, yes it is. But i would never expect it to save my life.

When doing door work there was a knife pulled on one of two occassions, and my physical abilites never came into it, everything was just a talk down situation. There was no running here, i was responsible for the safety of others and that was priority one, however, i was never going to tangle with the knife wielder. It is rare than someone will draw a knife and talk and have a solid intention to use it, so the opportuinity is there to talk them out of something that they may regret.

Let us not confuse training for sport and training for other reasons folks. And let us not assume that because we would try and avoid or walk away from fights that no harm shall come to us.

There are situations when we simply have no choice but to take what is coming to us and hope we get through it.

Ask a friend of mine who was glassed in the face outside a pub in town while having a cigarette.....simply because he had been talking to a girl. The result, 67 stitches.
Ask a friend of mine who was attacked with a rock on a bus simply because he looked like someone else. The result, a broken cheek bone, a shattered occular socket and over 30 stitches.
Ask a friend of mine who was gunned down outside his house simply for having done his job and done it well.

To be honest folks some people here need to get over this "my art keeps me safe" or "you can always walk away". Guess what. You can't.

Sure, walk away if you can, but be willing and able to defend yourself should you need to. And hope to Christ that you get the chance.

Roper

I agree to with Michael when he says

In order for a person to make a point they draw extremes and compare the best in what they do to the worst in what others do

But this debate is like comparing the high jump with curling, there is no real common ground.

The trouble with this debate is that the two sides have no common frame of reference. One side trains for a sporting contest, the other for a street conflict. Having never trained for the STREET I cannot understand the mindset of that type of person. Equally, Liam seems to have some difficulty understanding the mindset of a sportsman.

This always seems difficult to grasp, but if you asked the average amateur boxer, who by the way would probably hand all of us our asses;) to participate in this debate he probably wouldn't bother with it. He's a sportsman, what would be the point?

silat liam

columok wrote:

Musashi,

I would say being in good shape, being confident and having nothing to prove are the ways to go. If you do get attacked without a knife in my opinion MMA training is the training thats likely gonna help you out if something bad happens. With a knife well theres the STAB program- which used greco roman wrestling fundamentals...


Here is a article that was wrote by Marc (Animal) Mac Young who is a top self defence Instructor in USA. It dealing with reality of knife attacks. www.nonsenceselfdefence.com

Grappling with a knife
By Marc Mc Young

I was in Germany with a group of martial artists teaching "street knife work." While demonstrating an empty-handed with one of them, he tackled me and took me to the ground (This is no big deal as when I do demo's I don't allow "courtesy attacks." I insist people attack me like they would were it a real fight -- this occasionally means that I get slugged or taken down. This was one of those times). Anyway, when we hit the floor I realized that there was no way I could contest this guys strength, he was a bull, full of muscle and grappling skill. The thing was I had landed next to a practice knife that I calmly picked up and dragged it across his throat.

We stood up and his eyes were the size of saucers because he realized what the significance of what had just happened. A knife had come out of nowhere and had this been real, he would have been dead. The amazing thing was is there were only a few other people there who did too. On of the bigger proponents of grappling stood there and said, "He tackled you." To which I replied, "Yes, and I slit his throat" "But, he tackled you."

In their minds there was no difference in the levels of damage. The fact that I had been taken down counted the same as a knife across the throat. Personally, I'll take getting slammed to the ground any day over getting my throat slit.

The myth of grappling is that it works everywhere. The fact that it proved so successful in the UFC ring has blinded many people to the fact that there are critical differences between fighting barehanded and fighting with weapons. While empty-hand fighting might easily turn into an endurance marathon, where size, strength, physical shape and ability to endure punishment significantly influence the outcome of an altercation, that is not applicable to weapons work. In that arena, every man bleeds the same.

Oh yeah, remember how I said bio-mechanical cutting did have validity to it about the damage a knife can cause? What makes you think you can keep on fighting with that kind of damage being done to you? All a guy has to do is cut you a few times to seriously reduce your ability to move and then wait while you bleed out. Now the really bad news, being pumped up on adrenalin is going to make that happen faster, the higher your heart rate, the faster you bleed out and lose strength. All he has to do is out wait for your strength to fail before finishing the job.

Do not attempt to "grapple" with a knifer. Once on the ground, you are not guaranteed to be able to control his knife arm well enough to prevent him from carving you up. If it were a barehanded fight, then you can often prevent him from being able to generate enough power to effectively strike you, but a knife doesn't need power, it just needs to touch you. And if you are attempting to control his arm while on the ground, he will wiggle free and repeatedly cut you until you can no longer continue to resist.

Now for the fun news, I know of a small knife being manufactured that is called the "clinch pick." A small concealable -- and easily accessible -- knife, that can be rammed into a grappler's guts and chest three or four times before the grappler knows it is there. Where it is carried makes it nearly impossible for the grappler to prevent its deployment. When you realize he has it, it is too late....

Roper

What's going on here folks, are we training for a post-apocalyptic nightmare world in which everyone carries knives and weapons around? Is this Thunderdome? I live in Dublin, it's not always safe but it's not Escape from New York either.

Liam, we can all copy and paste, I'd like to hear you argue your points, not some "expert". And I've read about "Animal" McYoung, and he seems to me to have been in an awful lot of streetfights. That to me is the total opposite to anyone I want teaching me self defence. I'll take the guy who's avoided them thanks.

Yet, as one who lived despite the blood-splattered streets, MacYoung knows that survival isn’t a matter of how "tough" you are or your ability to fight. Nor is it how many stripes you have on a black belt or how many tournaments you’ve won. Although some physical skill is indeed necessary, survival is more a matter of knowledge and awareness. And that is what he stresses. Without those two key elements, you won’t make it out of a dark and lonely parking lot.

So, he's been in 1000's of streetfights, but now he wants to lecture US on awareness?

Dragan

Roper wrote:

So, he's been in 1000's of streetfights, but now he wants to lecture US on awareness?

Are you trying to say that no-one can change there ways??? Maybe he was a bit rough and tumble in his younger days, hell, maybe he was until yesterday but as of now he just seems to be trying to make people aware of the dangers that do exist.

You said yourself that people train for different reasons. As for the part about everyone carrying knifes and guns around, nope, not everyone does. But right now, someone, somewhere is dealing with someone who does. What makes you think it will never be you? Is it not better to be prepared than not be prepared?

I'm not getting on one side of the other here, i'm just playing devils advocate with points that i would like to get answers to, so please don't feel like i'm disagreeing with you in any way, just asking you a question is all.

silat liam

Roper wrote:

What's going on here folks, are we training for a post-apocalyptic nightmare world in which everyone carries knives and weapons around? Is this Thunderdome? I live in Dublin, it's not always safe but it's not Escape from New York either.

Liam, we can all copy and paste, I'd like to hear you argue your points, not some "expert". And I've read about "Animal" McYoung, and he seems to me to have been in an awful lot of streetfights. That to me is the total opposite to anyone I want teaching me self defence. I'll take the guy who's avoided them thanks.

So, he's been in 1000's of streetfights, but now he wants to lecture US on awareness?

Hi
You only have to read the daily papers to realise there is danger out there. I dont think Marc Mc Young was in actually in 1000's of fights. I say that was hype. But at the end of the day would you not rather learn how to defend yourself by learning from someone who has survive a knife attack than someone who has learnt from a book or dvd or maybe just did a weekend course. All my teachers have experience Knife situation. One of them fought in a knife fighting contests in Pendang behind closed doors. Another teacher I learnt from is a militart Commander and another has taught Federal forces in USA. Myself personally I been very lucky never to get involve as my work doesnt take me there to often. But I glad of what I learnt from these guys as they experience it.

To give you a comparrison of what you saying. If you wanting to learn about sex, would you go to a virgin or to someone who experience sex. You decide but by your statement you would go to a virgin. Why??? If you wanted a builder to build you a house, would you not go to someone who has plenty of experience to draw apon or would you go to someone fresh out of school, by your statement you would go to the school leaver why??? Would you not go to the best person in that field and learn from them. This is a free country so you have the right to decide. Awareness is perfect and it should be taught first but what happens it awareness fails you, either by your mistake or bad luck. This is what I'm talking at.

I just using cut and paste as the vast majority on this forum is from one group and I'm using these paste as a way to support my views. And there only my views. I just helping people to understand the reality of the knife.

Roper

Dragan wrote:

But right now, someone, somewhere is dealing with someone who does.

I don't doubt that training for a knife is a valid way of training. Of course it is, there is a harsh reality that some people do use knives to attack people and if you want to train for it, off you go. I think unless your job puts you in that position on a regular basis you're probably wasting your time when you could be doing something far healthier.

Liam,
My point is that this guy, MacYoung, is lecturing on how to avoid fights and conflict when he has obviously been in an awful lot. Now in my experience, 90% of fights (that I've seen) could have been avoided very easily through talking, walking or running. Now it's all very well for this guy, with the beneift of age and hindsight to say "oh yeah I've made mistakes", but you know what? I've known what he's trying to tell me since I was about 12 years old and so have most healthy people.

But then again, healthy minded, non-paranoid individuals are probably not his audience are they?

Dragan

Roper wrote:

But then again, healthy minded, non-paranoid individuals are probably not his audience are they?

You know, for someone who pointed out that we all train for different reasons, you don't seem to have too much of a problem dogging on people who might train for reasons that you don't agree with or reasons that may be different to yours.

MaxBax

in reference to what roper says i recommend we all start a street-sport like skate boarding.

Roper

Dragan wrote:

You know, for someone who pointed out that we all train for different reasons, you don't seem to have too much of a problem dogging on people who might train for reasons that you don't agree with or reasons that may be different to yours.

You've misinterpreted me Dragan.
Training for self defence, the dreaded street, for competition is all good. Whatever floats your boat. But when it comes down to it, some people prey on others problems. Many people start martial arts because they've had experiences with bullying, or because they feel afraid constantly. There is a culture of fear in the western world, it's very easy to make money off it by telling people exactly what they want to hear.

Now for example, Millionaire who posts here makes no qualms about being primarily RBSD focussed, and while I'll probably never train that way, I can see that what he does is genuine as is his desire to do it. However when I see articles from notorious "street fighters" being posted, alarm bells ring.

I don't see a difference in Martial Arts from one "style" to another. It's all punching, kicking, striking locking grappling to me. Where I see distinctions is in psychology and methods, which are interlinked for the most part.

Now I could say to Liam, "thanks for posting that. See you soon". But that wouldn't be a very good debate would it?

judomick

id like everyone to ask this question why do i train? when you have
answered this then ask and what will that do for me

everyone regardless of what they train will eventually have the same answer

if someone says i train self defence/martial arts for self preservation i
say their full of ****

I think alot of people are naive about the reality of the dangers in society
the media sensationalises alot of topics to sell more papers the same with tv for
ratings

heres a non debatable fact

2003 52 people died from being attacked(whether it was a knife ,triangle
or multiple attackers with dildos and a flying monkey

2003 approx 15000 people died from heart related disease

im sure you agree theres a lesson there

Liam, Michael,Roper, Musashi, Colm etc if someone came to you who
was overweight and asked you about self defence would you tell them my martial art will
do that for you or would you tell them to go running twice a week and dont eat bad food?

Dragan

Roper wrote:

You've misinterpreted me Dragan.

In that case then i do apologise. I guess i was just reading things into the "healthier" line that were not there.

Roper

judomick wrote:

Liam, Michael,Roper, Musashi, Colm etc if someone came to you who
was overweight and asked you about self defence would you tell them my martial art will
do that for you or would you tell them to go running twice a week and dont eat bad food?

I'd tell them to get their lardy ass out of my gym and into weight watchers!:D

Case in point: I once had a kid who's mother enrolled him in MA because he was being bullied for being overweight. Now he's genetically pre-disposed to weight gain, but when he's being given a packet of crisps straight after training... well, I'm sure you take my point. She took him out after about 2 months when it "wasn't working". The kid was enjoying himself but hadn't beaten anyone up yet.... ugh, when I think of it I still get annoyed.:mad:


Damn it Dragan! Don't take my point, disagree then we can have endless hours of amusement!:D

Dragan

Roper wrote:

I'd tell them to get their lardy ass out of my gym and into weight watchers!:D

To quote Chuck Lidell "Man, thats messed up. Why you got to pick on the fat kids!"

Roper wrote:

Damn it Dragan! Don't take my point, disagree then we can have endless hours of amusement!:D

I'd love to , but i just don't have the mental capacity right now.... i keep getting interrupted by....."work" wft???

columok

Liam,
you clearly have no understanding of wrestling if you keep thinking that all wrestling involves take downs.

STAB involves arm control and body control with strikes. Its fully pressure tested.

Do not attempt to "grapple" with a knifer. Once on the ground, you are not guaranteed to be able to control his knife arm well enough to prevent him from carving you up. If it were a barehanded fight, then you can often prevent him from being able to generate enough power to effectively strike you, but a knife doesn't need power, it just needs to touch you. And if you are attempting to control his arm while on the ground, he will wiggle free and repeatedly cut you until you can no longer continue to resist.

Grappling does not necessarily equal putting a guy on the ground. It can be controlling the knife arm while you headbutt and knee. Have you ever defended a knife drill against John Kavanagh or Judo Mick? Both would employ striking and grappling and would be able to deliver a knife blow quickly.

Colum

silat liam

columok wrote:

Liam,
you clearly have no understanding of wrestling if you keep thinking that all wrestling involves take downs.

STAB involves arm control and body control with strikes. Its fully pressure tested.



Grappling does not necessarily equal putting a guy on the ground. It can be controlling the knife arm while you headbutt and knee. Have you ever defended a knife drill against John Kavanagh or Judo Mick? Both would employ striking and grappling and would be able to deliver a knife blow quickly.

Colum

Hi Colum

Thats the point of my argument any person wheither they are trained in Martial Arts or not can deliver a knife blow very quickly. I dont believe one minute that there many good martial artist drifting around carrying knives looking for a fight. If they were they should be lock up. The knife is use by people as a equaliser, a way of getting you to do what they want. If your style of martial art teaches you how to realisticly defend against a blade thats cool.

To answer your question about John and judomick. Ive just met them once last year when they attended one of my seminars. But why if you were using a blade would you get involve in Grappling. First of all its illegal to use a blade and by grappling your attacker you therefore must assumed that he hasnt got a blade otherwise that would be foolish. So if the attacker hadnt got a blade why are you using one on him. You are therefore the attacker not the other way around. I dont think this is what these guys are teaching. You cannot carry blades around with you and you can never use a blade on a unarmed attacker full stop.This is why I started this thread on knife defence.

To judomick thats a fair point so if we look at all the people who use cars everyday. I think thats about 4 Million people and 400 get killed every year that represents I think a 0.001% of getting Killed than since it such a small number there would be no need to wear seatbelts as the chance of something happen is so little and its all used by the media as a way of hype and selling newspapers. Nobody nowadays would not think of not wearing a seatbelt. So people coming to Martial Arts if they are looking for Self defence should be aware of how to deal with some knife training that borders on being realistic. People join Martial Arts for all type of reasons and self defence is one of them, some join because they want to fight in the ring and if fills a need for them to prove themselves, some join because they want to get fitter, some join to help with stress, every reason is valied and we lucky in Ireland to have such a wide variety on offer to fill everyone needs and desired.

On a final note I do know about Grappling and wrestling as the Harimau and Cimande styles of Silat I learnt have a large percentage of grappling. I also learnt wrestling through the dumog. And a number of my private students trained in the US at gracies clubs. So I do have some experience of grappling. Maybe not to the same extents of other people on this forum, but silat is such a wide range of areas to enjoy and experience that it takes all my time just to do what I do.


As I said before this is not a anti someone else Martial Arts. I just saying be careful of applying locks, hold or takedowns to someone in the street in case he carrying a blade. Never thought so many of you guys would disagree with that.

Michael O Leary

judomick wrote:

id like everyone to ask this question why do i train? when you have
answered this then ask and what will that do for me

everyone regardless of what they train will eventually have the same answer

if someone says i train self defence/martial arts for self preservation i
say their full of ****

I think alot of people are naive about the reality of the dangers in society
the media sensationalises alot of topics to sell more papers the same with tv for
ratings

heres a non debatable fact

2003 52 people died from being attacked(whether it was a knife ,triangle
or multiple attackers with dildos and a flying monkey

2003 approx 15000 people died from heart related disease

im sure you agree theres a lesson there

Liam, Michael,Roper, Musashi, Colm etc if someone came to you who
was overweight and asked you about self defence would you tell them my martial art will
do that for you or would you tell them to go running twice a week and dont eat bad food?

Hi Judo Mick,

I train and teach solely for self-defence. Sorry that you think that I am full of ****. You seemed all right when we trained at a recent seminar, I didn't know that was what you were really thinking.

Actually the point of self-defence was one of the main topics at the seminar with the instructor stating that if you train for self-defence then you are somehow mentally unbalanced and need a therapist. He drew a scenario where a 30 stone survillist wearing combats questioning the self-defence aspect of grappling. This is a valid point however the instructor made the point that the individual is more likely to die of heart disease than be attacked. This is not a bad point but he did not address the question of grappling on the street and instead did a Gerry Adams and questioned the question.

Now here is the thing. Neither I nor any of my students are 30 stone. I have a body fat content of about 20-25% and am reasonably fit. I have a life outside of martial arts, a full time job, final year in college, good family/social relationships. For the instructor to suggest that I need a therapist due to my training for self-defence is insulting and silly. However maybe he is not so silly and is merely spouting his own propaganda by comparing the best in what he does with the worst in others. As I mentioned earlier we can all do that and compare the best in self-defence with the worst in sports.

As I mentioned in another post even though statictically we may never be physically attacked the value of learning a self-defence based martial art is that it can remove the feeling of being totally vunerable (without giving the person a false sence of security) and this can have a positive impact on someones quality of life.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Colm_OReilly

Judomick has bicep sliced the correct.

There is no excuse for being overweight: genetic predisposition, viral theory of obesity be damned. Energy In and Energy Out, balance these and you won't gain weight.

Columok has essentially answered any questions regarding knife defence and STAB/grappling so I won't reiterate them.

However, I'll point people to the post I made a while ago about creating your own reality. I live in Dublin, I go out to Night Clubs in Dublin quite frequently. I don't get in fights, get mugged, or anything like that. It doesn't happen to anyone in my social circle.

I'm not going to carry around a knife, phaser riffle, or Bathleth. Just don't get in fights, make that your reality.

Dragan

Colm_OReilly wrote:

There is no excuse for being overweight:

To be honest with you dude, that just a bit rough and unfair and if i may say so the words of someone who has obviously never had any sort of weight issues or eating problems, to either one extremem or the other. Why not just say that there is no excuse for bulimia, or anorexia?

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Just don't get in fights, make that your reality.

I'm happy for you, i really am. But just accept the fact that not all fights are fair, not all fights get started by both parties and not all fights leave you with an opportuinity to a) walk away from it or b) see it coming.

ninjawitatitude

LOL @

Roper wrote:

What's going on here folks, are we training for a post-apocalyptic nightmare world in which everyone carries knives and weapons around? Is this Thunderdome? I live in Dublin, it's not always safe but it's not Escape from New York either.

That's the funniest thing I've read in ages, it made me belly laugh my cornflakes all over the keyboard. Seriously though, knife attacks have gone up by 400% in the last ten years though (garda figures). These figures don't take into account the extra million people living here in the last ten years though.

Roper wrote:

Liam, we can all copy and paste, I'd like to hear you argue your points, not some "expert". And I've read about "Animal" McYoung, and he seems to me to have been in an awful lot of streetfights. That to me is the total opposite to anyone I want teaching me self defence. I'll take the guy who's avoided them thanks.

So, he's been in 1000's of streetfights, but now he wants to lecture US on awareness?

In fairness, Mark Mac Young was a bouncer/security when he got in most street fights and avoiding them probably wasn't an option. Having seen his videos and heard him talk I think he comes across as a fairly level headed guy. I doubt he's antagonised many of the situations. I could be wrong, but of the hundreds of "experts" I've listened to over the years, he's one of the few I'd like at my back in a hairy situation.

My two scents.

silat liam

Thought I would add this paste (yes another paste) found it this afternoon on the net about crime and violence figures in Ireland. It worth having a read and a think.
Totally agree with you Michael on your post



Crime
Going Up! Going Down!Ireland's police force, An Garda Siochanna, have spent tens of millions installing a new centralized computer system throughout the nation. Years late and with problems reputed to include an interface so complex and cranky that many Garda simply don't bother reporting anything but the most major crimes.

Vandalism and robbery in some parts of Dublin is so common that many people don't bother reporting minor thefts - garden furniture, kids bikes left outside for a few minutes and the like.

Gang related drug-turf fights probably make up the majority of murders. These are getting more vicious as the gangs acquire more guns. My advice is don't choose drug dealing as a career path.

Rape crisis experts report that they're dealing with more victims than ever. But, fewer are reporting such crimes to the police. The same goes for minor burglaries which are common enough in the towns to not be worth notifying the Garda/Police.

All told there were more than 100,000 serious crimes reported in a recent year. That's a big number even if it does undercount some crimes. And 4,000 assaults causing harm is hardly cause for rejoicing.

Avoiding Being a Victim

I know from following court cases reported in my local papers that the vast majority of these assaults are, as they say here, "drink related".

Let me summarise years of newspaper reports. A bunch of drunken and often drugged up yobs pour out of the weekend discos. The lads have somehow managed to pour a dozen or so pints down their bellies - something upward of a gallon of alcohol. Result - mayhem. Often between friends, or two guys putting the eye on the same girl. Or, in another oft-used phrase "words were exchanged" and before you know it someone is lying on the pavement getting his head stomped. Literally.

That takes care of maybe 80pc of those assaults causing harm. The rest, including unprovoked and dementedly vicious attacks, are what make headlines.

So, Ireland is not a paradise without problems.

I do know, however, that I can walk safely around my little town of Dungarvan - population 8,000 - on dark streets without worry. And I also know that, like everywhere, there are certain big city areas best avoided after dark. After the pubs and clubs close late on Friday and Saturday nights, I don't hang out on the streets. The worst drunken drivers usually hit the road and each other between 3am and 6am on the weekends.

Following a few common sense rules makes, well, common sense.

Safe Spots

The safest spots in the nation, based on headline crimes per 1,000 of populace, are

Roscommon/Galway East - 8.27
Donegal - 8.4
Clare - 8.4
Mayo - 8.77
Cork West - 8.93
Cavan-Monaghan - 8.95

The most dangerous spots, as would be expected, are in Dublin's inner city.

Dublin - North Central - 124.00
Dublin - South Central - 97.49

After this, the trouble spots in Dublin fall off hugely.

Dublin - Eastern - 23.84
Dublin - Southern - 23.80
Dublin - Western - 23.22
Dublin - Northern - 19.64

Cork City comes next at 20.93, then Waterford/Kilkenny at 20.05. Surprisingly, considering Limerick's poor reputation as "Stab City" for a few, high profile gang feuds, Limerick scores well at 16.75. Is that because Limerick was grouped with its peaceful countryside?

The rest of the nation came in somewhere in the low teens, between Cork North's 10.09 and Carlow/Kildare's 18.23.

In short, don't live in central Dublin and your chances of being a victim of a "headline" crime are generally below 2% in Ireland. Leave the nightclubs 30 minutes early and your risk becomes significantly lower.

Murder, She

Dragan

silat liam wrote:

Surprisingly, considering Limerick's poor reputation as "Stab City" for a few, high profile gang feuds, Limerick scores well at 16.75. Is that because Limerick was grouped with its peaceful countryside?

I can honestly say that few people outside of certain area's would be affected by any kind of violence in Limerick. Obviously it has it's trouble spots, but it's mostly native on native in there areas and the incidents are rarely reported.

All in all, i would say from having lived in Limerick that it's a pretty safe place for your average Joe.

ninjawitatitude

Hey Colm,

Colm_OReilly wrote:

However, I'll point people to the post I made a while ago about creating your own reality. I live in Dublin, I go out to Night Clubs in Dublin quite frequently. I don't get in fights, get mugged, or anything like that. It doesn't happen to anyone in my social circle.

I'm not going to carry around a knife, phaser riffle, or Bathleth. Just don't get in fights, make that your reality.

Are you honestly suggesting that 100% of victims of violent crimes brought it on themselves and are at least partly to blame for their injuries. Go down to the rape crisis centre and tell them that. I'm sure they'll all be relieved to know they can just walk away the next time.

It's not escape from New York (still funny) but there is plenty of violence out there. Now, most of it can be avoided. But some of it can't. If it could, there wouldn't be twelve thousand doormen in Dublin. Most guys with even a little proper training have little to worry about, but the average guy, who can't even scrap for thirty seconds, might want to think about what he's going to do in that situation, should it arise.

My two cents

Scramble

Actually the point of self-defence was one of the main topics at the seminar with the instructor stating that if you train for self-defence then you are somehow mentally unbalanced and need a therapist.

Hi Michael,

I was at that seminar too, although I interpeted what was said in a different way. The point I took away was that if someone is sincere about being safer, then fighting skills would be addressed after more statistically-likely causes of death or serious injury, like heart disease. It would come after improvements in your diet, the amount you exercise, the amount you drink, your knowledge of first aid, how you behave on the roads.

Suppose instead of spending the bulk of their time addressing the above, someone spends several hours a week training with the intention of learning to resist criminal assault, rehearsing knife defence, learning about the psychology of predators and victims and whatnot, then sharing information and talking about it on the internet each day. Taken in conjunction with the fact that we live in one of the safest countries in western europe, then I think they probably would benefit from examining what their real motivations are, because something is off. A disproportionate amount of time would be being spent preparing for an event that is statistically highly unlikely. I think a more honest explanation would be that time is spent this way because they enjoy this type of training and learning about this area. This then begs the question- Is it a bit of harmless Walter Mitty-esque fun, or is there something a bit sad about it...?

Responsibility for this whole debate also lies elsewhere. Maybe starting with the media and their 'if it bleeds, it leads' approach to selling copy. Individuals passing on endless anecodtal stories about rapes / muggings / imminent risk of the sky falling on our heads. And lastly, maybe the self defence industry itself, which depends upon a constant stream of 'vulernable' people for its livelihood.

columok

I was reading through page 2, had my post written in my head and along comes Scramble and says it all for me.:)

Ok Liam, Michael and co. I have no problem with people training martial arts in any shape or form so now its time to ask a few pertinent questions...

Self-defence can be considered self-preservation, survival etc.

In my opinion (probably backed up by statistics) if survival of you as a person in this world is a concern then I would consider the following of prime importance...

a) Physical Health
1) Controlling obesity
2) Watching your intake of processed foods i.e. carcinogens
3) Exercising your body regularily and safely avoiding injury


b) Mental Health
1) Being content with your direction in life
2) Having balanced well intentioned people around you
3) Being challenged mentally by your daily life

c) Financial Health
1) Being in a position to provide for yourself
2) Being in a position to provide for yourself in the future
3) Being in a position to provide for those reliant on you

d) Social Health
1) Being able to have healthy interactions with those closest to you
2) Being able to have healthy interactions with acquaintances/workmates/etc.
3) Being able to have healthy interactions with strangers

Now to be honest if self preservation is your goal then things that are more likely to save your skin are...
-Being able to speak one or more foreign languages
-Being able to engage with a variety of people
-Having a manner that puts people at ease and doesnt provoke people
-Knowing first aid
-Practising taking out your phone and calling the police (reflexes needed for speedy phone drawing)
-Meeting a partner and procreating (having someone to care for you later in life which is important for survival)


How many people who consider carrying special quick draw knives consider carrying special quick draw speeddial phones to get the cops there...?

Colum

Dragan

To be honest dude, i'm not too sure why we are all talking health all of a sudden. I'm not really seeing the correlation at all. I have gone to "self defence glasses" because i was interested in "defending myself" , i have done kick boxing because i was interested in that, i go to the gym every day to get "healthier" and "stronger".

People study in self defence and in martial arts ( and i'm sure if you all go around your glass, regardless of the art you will find a few people who will say they started because they wanted to be able to defend themselves ) simply because they have the desire to do so, if does not strictly need to achieve anything and cement it's place in some sort of Maslow's theory at all. By your own argument, why would anyone spend time doing anything that does not involve getting food, shelter or a good ride????? if we want to break things down that far that is.

columok

To be honest dude, i'm not too sure why we are all talking health all of a sudden.

Because self defence=self preservation=survival and if people say they're all about survival yet are spending a disproportionate amount of time working on things less likely to help them survive at the expense of things that are more likely to help them survive then I think they're fooling themselves.

I train for fun and not for self defence. If I was REALLY REALLY concerned about self defence=survival I'd run more and probably eat less junk and processed food. But really I'm a bit rubbish at the whole survival thing tbh. The amount of aspartame I consume on a day to day basis is a 100x factor of danger to my life than the lack of knife work in my MMA training or the fact that I'm predisposed to grappling.

Tim_Murphy

I train and teach solely for self-defence.

If a few years down the line you decided you weren’t enjoying your training anymore would you still keep it up purely for SD reasons?

I was at the seminar as well. What did you think of it overall?

I was at that seminar too, although I interpeted what was said in a different way. The point I took away was that if someone is sincere about being safer, then fighting skills would be addressed after more statistically-likely causes of death or serious injury, like heart disease. It would come after improvements in your diet, the amount you exercise, the amount you drink, your knowledge of first aid, how you behave on the roads.

Suppose instead of spending the bulk of their time addressing the above, someone spends several hours a week training with the intention of learning to resist criminal assault, rehearsing knife defence, learning about the psychology of predators and victims and whatnot, then sharing information and talking about it on the internet each day. Taken in conjunction with the fact that we live in one of the safest countries in western europe, then I think they probably would benefit from examining what their real motivations are, because something is off. A disproportionate amount of time would be being spent preparing for an event that is statistically highly unlikely. I think a more honest explanation would be that time is spent this way because they enjoy this type of training and learning about this area. This then begs the question- Is it a bit of harmless Walter Mitty-esque fun, or is there something a bit sad about it...?

Yes, that is what I took from it too. Colum has made some very good points on this issue.

Dragan

columok wrote:

self defence=self preservation=survival

em.....not really, no. Self defence equals self defence really , thats about as far as it goers. You can't really apply the "if your worried about survival you should worry about diet/money/happiness etc" why not go to the extreme of "your more likely to get hit by a car than get stabbed to death, so why do you go outside to get to your self defence class when you should stay inside".

Of all the people i know that go to anyform of self defence class, we're not sitting around coming up with imaginary scenario's going "Wow, and if someone tries to knife me, now i'll be able to do this!!!" We are well aware that all we are doing is mildly improving our chances. But when it comes to sitting at home watching Corrie because herself wants to or being out doing something like this i will choose this anyday. I go to the class, we all have a laugh and a chat and learn some new things and try them out and then we go home.

I go to the gym twice daily 5 days a week. One cardio session a day, and one weights session a day. I do watch very carefully what i eat and try and avoid any kind of fast or processed food. I like to cook my own meals as much as i can. At the moment i have a good job that satifies me with the work i do and the results i acheive. It challenges me but does not overly stress me and for this work i am handsomely rewarded in the grand scale of things. I live in a lovely area, in a beautiful apartment. I have a loving girlfriend. I have a loving family. I have a good close circle of friends who care for me and vice versa. I have a healthy and active social life and i am very calm, stable and most people who meet me for the first time seem to like me and i try and get on well with everyone.

I think i am meeting everything on your list so is it okay with you if i do some self defence now????

I'm not being sarcastic or smart, i'm just pointing out that you don't have any interest in "survival" and neither do I. I just what to learn something. And right now i want to learn this. In 12 months time i will most likely be doing BJJ or MMA, call me a dabbler if you will.

judomick

Michael what was it that you thought i was thinking?


has anyone asked themselves the question of why they train?

heres how my thought process go's

why do i train ?
because i want to compete
why?
because i like competing
why ?
because it makes me feel good


so there you go everyone trains because its fun and it makes them feel good, our reasons for starting martial arts may differ, health interest, fighting, self defence etc,
but the reason we continue to train is because we enjoy it anyone who doesnt i think does need a therapist because i think they have issues

Michael you also seemed cool, could you give us a run down of how the seminar was for you i would be interested in your feedback, for personal curiosity

Tim_Murphy

Guys, forget this STAB business, it's good all right, but there's much better out there!
http://www.hwarangdo.tv/videos/FSDanbongMLdsl.mov

Dave Joyce

Can all the MMA guys answer the guys who advocate RBSD in this thread (including myself!) the question are we either stupid, constantly looking for fights or paranoid. Because I know quite a few of these guys here and I know for a fact that they don't cause fights, know for a fact that they're not paranoid and are not stupid as the vast majority of people (let alone MAists or hopefully even MMAists) would walk away from a fight if possible, however, a number of posters have pointed out and its carefully avoided that sometimes its not an option because they may have their partner or kids with them, so what do you guys do then run off and leave them behind. We're also not talking drunken gob****es who can be talked out of hassle but scumbags who want to cause GBH!!

Its amazing how MMA guys can lecture RBSD guys about the street and "effective" training and yet I'd love to hear their reaction if guys who have no interest in sport started lecturing them about competing and preparing for a sporting contest.

In a previous thread a number of MMAers castigated TMA for giving ethic/moral training incorporated into their systems, yet now they lecture us about being fit, healthy and "friendly". Fuvk me talk about the pot calling the kettle black or is that statement politically incorrect?

For those living in their safe world since New Years Eve and I know I've missed a couple of incidents there have been at least 11 stabbings with I think 2 of those fatal in the 32 counties the majority on the east coast.

As a matter of interest, those who have advocated the STAB programme (btw I thought Karl Tanswell came up with this programme AFTER being stabbed so how is it pressure tested?), how often do you practise this exact programme as opposed to just grappling?

silat liam

columok wrote:

I was reading through page 2, had my post written in my head and along comes Scramble and says it all for me.:)

Ok Liam, Michael and co. I have no problem with people training martial arts in any shape or form so now its time to ask a few pertinent questions...

Self-defence can be considered self-preservation, survival etc.

In my opinion (probably backed up by statistics) if survival of you as a person in this world is a concern then I would consider the following of prime importance...

a) Physical Health
1) Controlling obesity
2) Watching your intake of processed foods i.e. carcinogens
3) Exercising your body regularily and safely avoiding injury


b) Mental Health
1) Being content with your direction in life
2) Having balanced well intentioned people around you
3) Being challenged mentally by your daily life

c) Financial Health
1) Being in a position to provide for yourself
2) Being in a position to provide for yourself in the future
3) Being in a position to provide for those reliant on you

d) Social Health
1) Being able to have healthy interactions with those closest to you
2) Being able to have healthy interactions with acquaintances/workmates/etc.
3) Being able to have healthy interactions with strangers

Now to be honest if self preservation is your goal then things that are more likely to save your skin are...
-Being able to speak one or more foreign languages
-Being able to engage with a variety of people
-Having a manner that puts people at ease and doesnt provoke people
-Knowing first aid
-Practising taking out your phone and calling the police (reflexes needed for speedy phone drawing)
-Meeting a partner and procreating (having someone to care for you later in life which is important for survival)


How many people who consider carrying special quick draw knives consider carrying special quick draw speeddial phones to get the cops there...?

Colum

Hi Colum
Not sure where you going with this. The thread was about the realities of a knife attack and what would happen if you tried to wrestle or grapple with the attackers. I understand the flavour of your message and those point are all very important. Silat is not just a self defence system Its a traditional Martial art and most people who do silat try it for a variety of reasons. Learning to defend themselves, getter fitter, and trying a new hobby are probely the three main reasons. This is what we advertise ourselves at, but going by your remarks you are now talking about mental health / social health and Financial Health. How many of the MMA guys actually teach Internal and mental training, using meditation and other forms to help focus, de stress and bring direction to the mind for the every day world. I was under the impression this was made fun off by the majority of MMA guy (Maybe I wrong in this thinking)I dont know what you teach, but I def dont talk about Financial Health what Martial arts teacher would you go to, to talk about investments and mortages. People dont ask this of a Martial Arts teacher they go to class to learn a martial art. I think this thread has kinda run out of steam and has move to other directions.