Applying for a job while pregnant

Buttony

WOW Thankfully there is laws in place.

You have to inform your employeer 4 weeks before you are due to go on leave which can be 2 weeks before due date so your employer needs to know 6 weeks from your due date. Obviously most people inform employers before then. You are then giving an employer six weeks notice which is about the notice period most people would have to give to leave a job too.

BTW pregnancy is not in the same class as an illness or disability. Generally it does not affect a womans ability to perform her job. For jobs where there is health and safety concerns an employeer is obliged to carry out a risk assesment and take necessary actions.

From an employers perspective: The paid leave is paid by the state not by the employer who sometimes top this up to the employees current salary. Most small employers don't pay this so they are not out of pocket.

WhiteWashMan

dbnavan wrote:

source : Employment Rights Explained
published by : Comhairle
Link : http://www.comhairle.ie/publications/entitlements/downloads/employment_rights.pdf

Does an employee have to have worked a certain length of time
before she is entitled to maternity leave?
No, a pregnant employee is entitled under legislation to take maternity
leave provided she gives the required notice, irrespective of how long she
has been working for her employer, what hours she works or the nature of
her employment (permanent, fixed-term or casual).


What notice does an employee need to give an employer before
taking maternity leave?
An employee needs to give her employer at least 4 weeks’ notice in
writing of her intention to take maternity leave. A medical certificate
confirming the pregnancy must be provided with the notice.
If the employee intends to take the additional 8 weeks’ maternity leave,
at least 4 weeks’ notice in writing of this must be given to the employer.
Both these notices can be given at the same time.
It is important to comply with these notice requirements, as failure to do
so may cause loss of rights.

thats fine, but its not what you asked

i think we are all in agreement with this, and why wouldnt we be.

however, you did ask about revealing pregnancy during an interview. that is something entirely different.
i dont know what the law is on this, but i have a feeling i would step on the same side as seamus.
although, whether it is discrimination is one thing, whether you could prove it is entirely another.

Sleipnir

Well then think of the hole we would be in if women couldn't get maternity leave unless they had worked in a company for let's say 3 years.
Also think of how many women are now in the workforce compared with 30 or even 20 years ago. What if a large proportion of them now left the workforce to have kids?

Now imagine what would happen if all those women couldn't have kids because they would lose their jobs.
two questions;
1.) What would happen to the population of this country?
2.) How would that affect the future workforce?
3.) How would that affect your pension (let's say in 30 years when the workforce is half what it is now)

Those are the REAL consequences.

dbnavan

WhiteWashMan wrote:

thats fine, but its not what you asked

i think we are all in agreement with this, and why wouldnt we be.

however, you did ask about revealing pregnancy during an interview. that is something entirely different.
i dont know what the law is on this, but i have a feeling i would step on the same side as seamus.
although, whether it is discrimination is one thing, whether you could prove it is entirely another.

But it is illegal for them to ask, so why should you be bound to tell them? By making it illegal for them to ask means that, that information is none of their business at that moment in time. Therefore if you do get the job you havent withheld information because it was not within their rights to have that information. if they are pi**ed off about it that is their personal opinion and nothing to do with the empolyee.

seamus

dbnavan wrote:

Seamus now you have lost plot, you cannot justify any discrimination. Discrimination is discrimination except maybe in a job where a medical declaration of fitness is required, ie Gardai, Fireperson. Pregnancy does not prevent a woman say.... sit at a checkout, or answer phones.

Someone else made the exact same comment before. Discrimination is not a bad word. There are plenty of times when discrimination is not only legal, it's perfectly valid. I'll bring up the same example: Children cannot buy alcohol. Discrimination? Yes. Justified? Yes.
You even contradict yourself in your own post - "you cannot justify any discrimination.....except maybe in a job where a....".

whats the difference in them giving maternity leave weather she is there 6 weeks or 6 years, it is a right of every female citizen in the state.

There's absolutely no difference, provided that the employer is well aware of the need, when hiring in the former case.

Comments like that are just unedutcated, that is why the government has issued many pregnacy protection bills. Everything has personal consequences, however discrimination is not one of them,

The problem is that plenty of people seem to have forgotten the right of the employers. That's not to say that employers are downtrodden, but so many people in modern Ireland think that they should be able to walk all over an employer because they're the big, bad elite.

As I state quite reasonable above, why should an employer feel guilty about not hiring a pregnant woman, if they quite blatantly do not suit the position in the short-term?

dbnavan

seamus wrote:

There's absolutely no difference, provided that the employer is well aware of the need, when hiring in the former case.

As stated in the law the employee only has to give 4 weeks notice, up until then they dont have to disclose, and its none of the empolyers business.

seamus

dbnavan wrote:

As stated in the law the employee only has to give 4 weeks notice, up until then they dont have to disclose, and its none of the empolyers business.

I noticed that, but we're on to debating the moral side of it here.
Put down your "I'm going to be a Daddy soon" stick and think what you would feel if you were a small employer who's just hired some girl. She's there to replace the previous guy who pissed off without any notice, and left a huge backlog of work, and a pile of irate clients behind him. You're delighted that this girl is coming in. She interviewed well, she's friendly and she's qualified. You're optimistic that she'll actually get through it all in about a year and improve client relations.

Then 2 months later, she's quite clearly pregnant, and will only be halfway through the workload by the time she's gone on maternity leave. The rest of your staff, who've had their workloads initially lifted by her joining, have taken on more work, so there's no way you can possibly survive without her while she's gone on maternity leave. So you have to pay a contractor even more money for the 22 weeks that she's gone, purely to keep your business from collapsing.

Would you be pissed off and tempted to fire her?

dbnavan

seamus wrote:

I noticed that, but we're on to debating the moral side of it here.
Put down your "I'm going to be a Daddy soon" stick and think what you would feel if you were a small employer who's just hired some girl. She's there to replace the previous guy who pissed off without any notice, and left a huge backlog of work, and a pile of irate clients behind him. You're delighted that this girl is coming in. She interviewed well, she's friendly and she's qualified. You're optimistic that she'll actually get through it all in about a year and improve client relations.

Then 2 months later, she's quite clearly pregnant, and will only be halfway through the workload by the time she's gone on maternity leave. The rest of your staff, who've had their workloads initially lifted by her joining, have taken on more work, so there's no way you can possibly survive without her while she's gone on maternity leave. So you have to pay a contractor even more money for the 22 weeks that she's gone, purely to keep your business from collapsing.

Would you be pissed off and tempted to fire her?

Would I be pissed.....probably yes,

Anything I could do about, no.

Fire her?? Not worth the court battle, I'd lose

Put down your "I'm going to be a Daddy soon" stick. Who told u? ~~Thinks back~~, did I annouce it here yet??

and I dont have a stick, thats what debating is about.

seamus

dbnavan wrote:

Fire her?? Not worth the court battle, I'd lose

Probably. But in the above circumstances, I'd probably go for it on principle

Put down your "I'm going to be a Daddy soon" stick. Who told u? ~~Thinks back~~, did I annouce it here yet??

I assumed. Why else would you ask?

dbnavan

seamus wrote:

Probably. But in the above circumstances, I'd probably go for it on principle

Principles dont make you right. And in this case would lose you alot of money

seamus wrote:

I assumed. Why else would you ask?

Could be a sister, friend, cousin, however your right its the wife, expecting our first

Well thats it the cats out the bag, dbnavan's gonna be a daddy for the first time and is very happy about it.

Sleipnir

Well congratulation dbnavan, welcome to the club. My second kid is expected, well, today!

seamus

Well congrats!

FTR, I'm not an employer, so you're safe on that count

Mr. Presentable

seamus wrote:

I noticed that, but we're on to debating the moral side of it here.
Put down your "I'm going to be a Daddy soon" stick and think what you would feel if you were a small employer who's just hired some girl. She's there to replace the previous guy who pissed off without any notice, and left a huge backlog of work, and a pile of irate clients behind him. You're delighted that this girl is coming in. She interviewed well, she's friendly and she's qualified. You're optimistic that she'll actually get through it all in about a year and improve client relations.

Then 2 months later, she's quite clearly pregnant, and will only be halfway through the workload by the time she's gone on maternity leave. The rest of your staff, who've had their workloads initially lifted by her joining, have taken on more work, so there's no way you can possibly survive without her while she's gone on maternity leave. So you have to pay a contractor even more money for the 22 weeks that she's gone, purely to keep your business from collapsing.

Would you be pissed off and tempted to fire her?

I have a very small company, three people, and in the above scenario taking on a person would put me out of business.

I don't agree with discriminating against a person who wants to have kids, but I also don't agree I should be the one to pay for it.

Sleipnir

Well I sort of agree with that.
I believe the government (and past governments) are mostly responsible.
They called for women to go into the workforce, so the women did. Then the women said
"how are we going to have kids and keep working?" and the govenments said
"that's not our problem, you went out and got a job"

Wait a few years and the government will be saying
"Ladies, leave the workforce and have kids!"

dbnavan

nipplenuts wrote:

I have a very small company, three people, and in the above scenario taking on a person would put me out of business.

I don't agree with discriminating against a person who wants to have kids, but I also don't agree I should be the one to pay for it.

The employerr does not have to pay for materity leave Social Welfare do that all you'd have to do is hire a temp. Meaning the only cost involved would be cost of recruiting

Boggles

Litcagral wrote:

eeyore's mate wrote:

It's part of your fundamental rights living in Ireland that you don't have to divulge personal information to your (potential) employers.QUOTE]


An employer is entitled to know any personal information IF it may affect one's ability to do one's job (e.g. pregnancy, illness, disability etc.).

An employer is not entitled to know personal information which is unconnected with one's ability to do one's job (e.g. religion, sexual preferences).

Would this persons quote not answer the original question if it is indeed taken from something legally binding?

daisychain

Congratulations! When is the baby due?

I'm thinking similar thoughts, but not pregnant. I've been trying to get pregnant since last summer, unsuccessfully but AFAIK problems were temporary due to long term pill use etc. and I'm fairly back to normal now and ready to go

problem with job is I'm on a temporary contract, I thought i'd conceive straight away, (I did when I was 18 and wasn't even trying :eek: ) and by the time my contract (covering maternity leave, ironically) ended, I'd be nearly ready to pop myself. But now I have 10 weeks left in the job and am starting to look for another. work have asked me to stay on another 12 months (some1 else going out on ML!) but i declined as I can't guarantee I'll be available that long. If I get pregnant this month, I'll be 10 weeks gone starting whatever new job I get and really won't start to show til about 20 weeks, won't be going out on ML til 38 weeks so I'd be giving a good 6 and a half months work.

I don't see a problem looking for a job while pregnant, but I think I feel a bit cheeky all the same, planning to start a new job but planning to get pregnant at the same time. But its my life, as someone once said work to live, don't live to work.

b3t4

Article discussing the topic of the thread:
http://www.irishjobs.ie/forum/IndividualArticle.aspx?ForumTypeID=101&SID=7

Nine grounds of discrimination
http://www.equality.ie/index.asp?docID=48#q2

A.

dbnavan

b3t4 wrote:

Article discussing the topic of the thread:
http://www.irishjobs.ie/forum/IndividualArticle.aspx?ForumTypeID=101&SID=7

Nine grounds of discrimination
http://www.equality.ie/index.asp?docID=48#q2

A.

there iss the answer folks, I believe I was right all along ~coughs~, thanks b3t4.

~sits back waiting for someone to question it, ~ no doubt it will happen however irishjobs.ie is sound enough for me.

WhiteWashMan

dbnavan wrote:

there iss the answer folks, I believe I was right all along ~coughs~, thanks b3t4.

~sits back waiting for someone to question it, ~ no doubt it will happen however irishjobs.ie is sound enough for me.

its still not an official line, and the second item actually doesnt cover the instance of telling a prospective employer of your pregnancy.

so, while you may feel vindicated, i dont see any legal evidence that you are in the right position.

as for being right all along. now you just sound childish, which is quite distasteful.

dbnavan

WhiteWashMan wrote:

its still not an official line, and the second item actually doesnt cover the instance of telling a prospective employer of your pregnancy.

so, while you may feel vindicated, i dont see any legal evidence that you are in the right position.

as for being right all along. now you just sound childish, which is quite distasteful.

Some people are never happy, who do u want this 'offical line' from Bertie Ahern, I already gave answer from A HR Manager, and one of the bigger recruitment website. Now who's been childish? Havent seen your line offically backed up

WhiteWashMan

dbnavan wrote:

Some people are never happy, who do u want this 'offical line' from Bertie Ahern, I already gave answer from A HR Manager, and one of the bigger recruitment website. Now who's been childish? Havent seen your line offically backed up

2 things...

the official line is important becuase people come here looking for advice. i dont want people to get screwed over because some person got 'advice' from someone that turned out to be wrong.
it does happen. it has happened.

and secondly, i havent made any points. i have simply said that i thought that seamus was in the right, but i did say i wasnt sure.

if youre now going to get into a debate over it, i will happily do so, but somewhere else.
i would be delighted if you someone can supply an answer to your question about revealing pregnancy during an interview, that is linked to an official source.

i peraonlly still belive that an employer has the option not to hire someone who is expecting, otherwise all you need to do is be preganant, go for a job, not get it and sue. and that would be a rediculous situation. otherwise, i have just let the biggest legal loophole in ireland out of the bag, and we can all expect to be sued by every woman in future.

dbnavan

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i peraonlly still belive that an employer has the option not to hire someone who is expecting, otherwise all you need to do is be preganant, go for a job, not get it and sue. and that would be a rediculous situation. otherwise, i have just let the biggest legal loophole in ireland out of the bag, and we can all expect to be sued by every woman in future.

Look I have a physical disability and I know for a fact it has prevented me getting jobs I knew I could do, proving it is another thing. Nobody is ever gonna say sorry but if you were not disabled the job is urs. Proving discrimination is extreamly hard to do.

Original question was should u volenteer the information. I dont put I am disabled on my CV because if I did everything else becomes secondary information, like it or not.

b3t4

i peraonlly still belive that an employer has the option not to hire someone who is expecting

This is why I attached the second link.
Not hiring someone because they are pregnant is a form of discrimination.

It would be discrimination in according to the person family status.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA8Y2000S3.html

A.

chump

dbnavan wrote:

The employerr does not have to pay for materity leave Social Welfare do that all you'd have to do is hire a temp. Meaning the only cost involved would be cost of recruiting

http://oasis.gov.ie/birth/benefits_and_entitlements_relating_to_birth/maternity_benefit.html?CONTACTSID=8f3e27d8e808b632630732de3b3f3d25
It's not as straightforward as that....
Meaning this person may apply for Maternity Benefit, and simply not get it, as they haven't passed the requirements laid out above. And also quite a few employers probably put paid maternity leave in their contracts... does anyone know what percentage of employers do? and if this is common?

WhiteWashMan

b3t4 wrote:

This is why I attached the second link.
Not hiring someone because they are pregnant is a form of discrimination.

It would be discrimination in according to the person family status.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA8Y2000S3.html

A.

by that reasoning, not hiring someone because they are pregnant is also valid grounds for discrimination....

WhiteWashMan

dbnavan wrote:

Look I have a physical disability and I know for a fact it has prevented me getting jobs I knew I could do, proving it is another thing. Nobody is ever gonna say sorry but if you were not disabled the job is urs. Proving discrimination is extreamly hard to do.

Original question was should u volenteer the information. I dont put I am disabled on my CV because if I did everything else becomes secondary information, like it or not.

im aware of your situation, and im quiet sure it has prevented you from getting jobs.
i am very aware that it happens.

the question as to whether or not you should mention a pregnancy is not made invalid by your experiences, however, the question on the legality of it has not been shown.

that is all im saying. you can have a parade if you want, but i cant see anything that suggests thats its unlawful for an employee to take into acount a potential employees pregnancy when it comes to deciding what candidate should get a job.

im not saying its right, and im not saying its wrong, im simply saying i have yet to see proof.

AARRRGH

It's wrong to hide a pregnancy from an employer.

He can fire you when he finds out. You won't be able to sue him because you'll have been in the company less than 12 months so the Unfair Dismissals Act won't cover you.

Whether you legally have to reveal it or not, you should. You're cheating the employer.

dbnavan

dublindude wrote:

It's wrong to hide a pregnancy from an employer.

He can fire you when he finds out. You won't be able to sue him because you'll have been in the company less than 12 months so the Unfair Dismissals Act won't cover you.

Whether you legally have to reveal it or not, you should. You're cheating the employer.

If you should tell them why is illegal for them to ask, I am getting sick of people saying......in principle......or....your cheating......your not the fact is you dont have to tell them by law, anyone agruing the other side is giving opinions and cannot legally back anything up, whereas I have legally backed up my side,

Legalalities and moralities are different things.

AARRRGH

OK. Don't tell him. I hope he fires you and you're left with a big black hole on your CV.

It's a scummy thing to do. As a previous poster said, sometimes your actions can affect the employer too (his example: he'd end up going out of business.)

I know it's a difficult concept for some people, but sometimes you have to think beyond yourself.