Applying for a job while pregnant

dbnavan

Do you have to declare your pregnant and will need materity leave if you are pregnant when going for a job.

Before any replies saying they will notice, not in the early stages they wont.

Kingmaker

AFAIK you do have to declare it

dbnavan

Kingmaker wrote:

AFAIK you do have to declare it

You actually dont have to declare it, found out else where,

WhiteWashMan

can you post up the details of where you saw this.

dbnavan

WhiteWashMan wrote:

can you post up the details of where you saw this.

Wasnt found online, was told by HR person.

eeyore's mate

It's part of your fundamental rights living in Ireland that you don't have to divulge personal information to your (potential) employers.
I'm sure you could find more info on google!

qwertz

Don't blindly trust your HR contact. Check with a solicitor.

dbnavan

qwertz wrote:

Don't blindly trust your HR contact. Check with a solicitor.

I would think that HR manager would have to know employment law just as much as a solicitor if not more so since a solicitor does deal with employment law all the time.

asked few people and all gave same answer u dont have to disclose. Its also discussed on a pregnancy forum.

onedmc

No, you dont have to declair it, but you employer dosn't have to hold the job open for you if you take maternity leave within your first year.

onedmc

WhiteWashMan

dbnavan wrote:

I would think that HR manager would have to know employment law just as much as a solicitor if not more so since a solicitor does deal with employment law all the time.

asked few people and all gave same answer u dont have to disclose. Its also discussed on a pregnancy forum.

no offence, but i would rather have some sort of proof rather than some heresay.

just becuase you heard it from an HR director means nothing. I know plenty of HR people who dont know jack about the law.

I simply want the facts from somewhere trustworthy, so far all i have is opinion with no fact.

seamus

There would be very little to stop an employer from firing her on the spot when she sprung it on them. It wouldn't be appealable under the unfair dismissals procedure, and they'd have good cause anyway.

WhiteWashMan

personally i would be of the opinion that you are obliged to inform any potential employer that you are pregnant. i could be completely wrong.

thats why factual information is important.

although, i do not understand why they would be allowed to dismiss someone who went out on maternaity leave. if thats what youre saying?

dbnavan

seamus wrote:

There would be very little to stop an employer from firing her on the spot when she sprung it on them. It wouldn't be appealable under the unfair dismissals procedure, and they'd have good cause anyway.

That is bull**** seamus. sorry I normally agree with you but this time your wrong, that is a clear case for discrimination, whatever about not getting maternity leave etc, they can not sack you for being pregnant, beside even if they could they would have to prove you knew you where pregnant, when you took the job.

WhiteWashMan

well, if you cant give us the links stating otherwise, steady on with your condemnations.

why not check out the oasis website and see if that has it.

anyway, how come you asked the question and then seemed pretty sure of the answer?

Litcagral

A few points:


1. Normally the Unfair Dismissals Act only applies to persons employed for more than 365 days but there are several exceptions - pregnancy is one of them.

2. It is a requirement that an employee gives at least four weeks notice of the intention to take Maternity leave therefore if one intends to take maternity leave within four weeks of commencing a new job (unlikely I agree) one will have to inform the employer at interview stage.

3. For some occupations, it is a requirement that the employee inform the employer that she is or may be pregnant as to continue to work in certain environments may put the mother or unborn child at risk.

dbnavan

WhiteWashMan wrote:

well, if you cant give us the links stating otherwise, steady on with your condemnations.

why not check out the oasis website and see if that has it.

anyway, how come you asked the question and then seemed pretty sure of the answer?

The unfair dismissals legislation sets out a number of grounds that will be taken to be unfair. The legislation covers dismissals due to: Your pregnancy, giving birth or breastfeeding or any matters connected therewith

source : http://www.oasis.gov.ie/employment/losing_your_job/unfair_dismissal.html?search=dismissal+pregnancy

WhiteWashMan

so what about your original query?

dbnavan

I answered it myself, and got HR's answer to it which I also posted.

Litcagral

eeyore's mate wrote:

It's part of your fundamental rights living in Ireland that you don't have to divulge personal information to your (potential) employers.QUOTE]


An employer is entitled to know any personal information IF it may affect one's ability to do one's job (e.g. pregnancy, illness, disability etc.).

An employer is not entitled to know personal information which is unconnected with one's ability to do one's job (e.g. religion, sexual preferences).

WhiteWashMan

dbnavan wrote:

I answered it myself, and got HR's answer to it which I also posted.

as i said, i would prefer proof rather than second hand info.
if we have it on an official website it means something.

im not saying you are wrong, im just saying thats what i like.

by the way, i would have agreed with the last poster as well.

seamus

dbnavan wrote:

That is bull**** seamus. sorry I normally agree with you but this time your wrong, that is a clear case for discrimination, whatever about not getting maternity leave etc, they can not sack you for being pregnant, beside even if they could they would have to prove you knew you where pregnant, when you took the job.

Well, I'll have to disagree. I don't believe it's discrimination when the potential employee deliberately witholds such information from the employer prior to signing the contract of employment. I would stand behind any employer's right to fire someone who withheld such information.
Now in this case, you may be on the cusp of it, but if an employee is say, five months pregnant when starting, she'd have a pretty tough case denying that she knew nothing about it.

dbnavan

WhiteWashMan wrote:

as i said, i would prefer proof rather than second hand info.

source : Employment Rights Explained
published by : Comhairle
Link : http://www.comhairle.ie/publications/entitlements/downloads/employment_rights.pdf

Does an employee have to have worked a certain length of time
before she is entitled to maternity leave?
No, a pregnant employee is entitled under legislation to take maternity
leave provided she gives the required notice, irrespective of how long she
has been working for her employer, what hours she works or the nature of
her employment (permanent, fixed-term or casual).


What notice does an employee need to give an employer before
taking maternity leave?
An employee needs to give her employer at least 4 weeks’ notice in
writing of her intention to take maternity leave. A medical certificate
confirming the pregnancy must be provided with the notice.
If the employee intends to take the additional 8 weeks’ maternity leave,
at least 4 weeks’ notice in writing of this must be given to the employer.
Both these notices can be given at the same time.
It is important to comply with these notice requirements, as failure to do
so may cause loss of rights.

Sleipnir

seamus wrote:

Well, I'll have to disagree. I don't believe it's discrimination when the potential employee deliberately witholds such information from the employer prior to signing the contract of employment. I would stand behind any employer's right to fire someone who withheld such information.
Now in this case, you may be on the cusp of it, but if an employee is say, five months pregnant when starting, she'd have a pretty tough case denying that she knew nothing about it.

Why should she have to deny it? It would be discriminating not to employ someone because they were pregnant. i.e. It should not be an issue in terms of deciding between one applicant or another.
How about if a potential employer were 'suspicious' that a prospective employee was pregnant? Would that be grounds not to employ her?

dbnavan

Sleipnir wrote:

Why should she have to deny it? It would be discriminating not to employ someone because they were pregnant. i.e. It should not be an issue in terms of deciding between one applicant or another.
How about if a potential employer were 'suspicious' that a prospective employee was pregnant? Would that be grounds not to employ her?

Speipnir, we know they cant ask, but question is should you tell them

seamus

Sleipnir wrote:

Why should she have to deny it? It would be discriminating not to employ someone because they were pregnant. i.e. It should not be an issue in terms of deciding between one applicant or another.

Not necessarily. It's reasonable that if an employer is going to hire someone, then they need a job to done. Thus, if they have a choice between someone who's going to be available the whole time, and someone who will *definitely* be taking an extended break, then they have the right to choose the person who best fits the bill.
What about the rights of the employer here? If you're pregnant, it's reasonable to say that you may not be suitable for a job, since you're not going to be around in a few months time. What if the employer is hiring someone for a project that needs to be completed in the next 12 months? Is it discrimination if they refuse to hire the pregnant woman? Of course it, but it's justified.

How about if a potential employer were 'suspicious' that a prospective employee was pregnant? Would that be grounds not to employ her?

Of course not. If the employer suspects as much, then he would have to ask her. This in reality would never happen, but if she then revealed she was pregnant, he would have grounds to fire her.

Pregnancy isn't something that "just happens". If you get pregnant, then among the other consequences, you have to accept that you lose the degrees of freedom to skip jobs mid-pregnancy, that you had pre-pregnancy.

Sleipnir

dbnavan wrote:

Speipnir, we know they cant ask, but question is should you tell them

Then, an applicant should also disclose the fact that they are gay?
Or would that be discriminating?

In the real world, you can't fire someone when you find out they are pregnant, even if you've just taken them on. It would be suicide.

seamus

Sleipnir wrote:

Then, an applicant should also disclose the fact that they are gay?
Or would that be discriminating?

An applicant should disclose all information that would affect their ability to do their job. Pregnancy is one such piece of information. Homosexuality is not.

Sleipnir

seamus wrote:

Pregnancy isn't something that "just happens".

The existence of my son proves otherwise

dbnavan

seamus wrote:

Not necessarily. It's reasonable that if an employer is going to hire someone, then they need a job to done. Thus, if they have a choice between someone who's going to be available the whole time, and someone who will *definitely* be taking an extended break, then they have the right to choose the person who best fits the bill.
What about the rights of the employer here? If you're pregnant, it's reasonable to say that you may not be suitable for a job, since you're not going to be around in a few months time. What if the employer is hiring someone for a project that needs to be completed in the next 12 months? Is it discrimination if they refuse to hire the pregnant woman? Of course it, but it's justified.
Of course not. If the employer suspects as much, then he would have to ask her. This in reality would never happen, but if she then revealed she was pregnant, he would have grounds to fire her.

Pregnancy isn't something that "just happens". If you get pregnant, then among the other consequences, you have to accept that you lose the degrees of freedom to skip jobs mid-pregnancy, that you had pre-pregnancy.

Seamus now you have lost plot, you cannot justify any discrimination. Discrimination is discrimination except maybe in a job where a medical declaration of fitness is required, ie Gardai, Fireperson. Pregnancy does not prevent a woman say.... sit at a checkout, or answer phones.

whats the difference in them giving maternity leave weather she is there 6 weeks or 6 years, it is a right of every female citizen in the state.

seamus wrote:

Pregnancy isn't something that "just happens". If you get pregnant, then among the other consequences, you have to accept that you lose the degrees of freedom to skip jobs mid-pregnancy, that you had pre-pregnancy.

Comments like that are just unedutcated, that is why the government has issued many pregnacy protection bills. Everything has personal consequences, however discrimination is not one of them,

chump

Does anyone think of the employer in these situations...
Think of a small company with a few employees that's just making ends meet...

Then along comes a new employee who with-held they were pregnant, took 22 weeks paid maternity leave

If you are starting maternity leave on or after 1 March 2006 you will be entitled to 22 weeks maternity leave. You will also be entitled to take an additional four weeks unpaid maternity leave. (In other words, from that date, you can avail of an additional 12 weeks unpaid maternity leave, after your maternity leave ends).

and then a few entra unpaid weeks...

It seems very unfair to me

dbnavan

chump wrote:

Does anyone think of the employer in these situations...
Think of a small company with a few employees that's just making ends meet...

Then along comes a new employee who with-held they were pregnant, took 22 weeks paid maternity leave

If you are starting maternity leave on or after 1 March 2006 you will be entitled to 22 weeks maternity leave. You will also be entitled to take an additional four weeks unpaid maternity leave. (In other words, from that date, you can avail of an additional 12 weeks unpaid maternity leave, after your maternity leave ends).

and then a few entra unpaid weeks...

It seems very unfair to me

It's the law, if ur not happy write to a minister or start a protest, you will become a hated man of many hormonal women, rather you then me pal.:D

Buttony

WOW Thankfully there is laws in place.

You have to inform your employeer 4 weeks before you are due to go on leave which can be 2 weeks before due date so your employer needs to know 6 weeks from your due date. Obviously most people inform employers before then. You are then giving an employer six weeks notice which is about the notice period most people would have to give to leave a job too.

BTW pregnancy is not in the same class as an illness or disability. Generally it does not affect a womans ability to perform her job. For jobs where there is health and safety concerns an employeer is obliged to carry out a risk assesment and take necessary actions.

From an employers perspective: The paid leave is paid by the state not by the employer who sometimes top this up to the employees current salary. Most small employers don't pay this so they are not out of pocket.

WhiteWashMan

dbnavan wrote:

source : Employment Rights Explained
published by : Comhairle
Link : http://www.comhairle.ie/publications/entitlements/downloads/employment_rights.pdf

Does an employee have to have worked a certain length of time
before she is entitled to maternity leave?
No, a pregnant employee is entitled under legislation to take maternity
leave provided she gives the required notice, irrespective of how long she
has been working for her employer, what hours she works or the nature of
her employment (permanent, fixed-term or casual).


What notice does an employee need to give an employer before
taking maternity leave?
An employee needs to give her employer at least 4 weeks’ notice in
writing of her intention to take maternity leave. A medical certificate
confirming the pregnancy must be provided with the notice.
If the employee intends to take the additional 8 weeks’ maternity leave,
at least 4 weeks’ notice in writing of this must be given to the employer.
Both these notices can be given at the same time.
It is important to comply with these notice requirements, as failure to do
so may cause loss of rights.

thats fine, but its not what you asked

i think we are all in agreement with this, and why wouldnt we be.

however, you did ask about revealing pregnancy during an interview. that is something entirely different.
i dont know what the law is on this, but i have a feeling i would step on the same side as seamus.
although, whether it is discrimination is one thing, whether you could prove it is entirely another.

Sleipnir

Well then think of the hole we would be in if women couldn't get maternity leave unless they had worked in a company for let's say 3 years.
Also think of how many women are now in the workforce compared with 30 or even 20 years ago. What if a large proportion of them now left the workforce to have kids?

Now imagine what would happen if all those women couldn't have kids because they would lose their jobs.
two questions;
1.) What would happen to the population of this country?
2.) How would that affect the future workforce?
3.) How would that affect your pension (let's say in 30 years when the workforce is half what it is now)

Those are the REAL consequences.

dbnavan

WhiteWashMan wrote:

thats fine, but its not what you asked

i think we are all in agreement with this, and why wouldnt we be.

however, you did ask about revealing pregnancy during an interview. that is something entirely different.
i dont know what the law is on this, but i have a feeling i would step on the same side as seamus.
although, whether it is discrimination is one thing, whether you could prove it is entirely another.

But it is illegal for them to ask, so why should you be bound to tell them? By making it illegal for them to ask means that, that information is none of their business at that moment in time. Therefore if you do get the job you havent withheld information because it was not within their rights to have that information. if they are pi**ed off about it that is their personal opinion and nothing to do with the empolyee.

seamus

dbnavan wrote:

Seamus now you have lost plot, you cannot justify any discrimination. Discrimination is discrimination except maybe in a job where a medical declaration of fitness is required, ie Gardai, Fireperson. Pregnancy does not prevent a woman say.... sit at a checkout, or answer phones.

Someone else made the exact same comment before. Discrimination is not a bad word. There are plenty of times when discrimination is not only legal, it's perfectly valid. I'll bring up the same example: Children cannot buy alcohol. Discrimination? Yes. Justified? Yes.
You even contradict yourself in your own post - "you cannot justify any discrimination.....except maybe in a job where a....".

whats the difference in them giving maternity leave weather she is there 6 weeks or 6 years, it is a right of every female citizen in the state.

There's absolutely no difference, provided that the employer is well aware of the need, when hiring in the former case.

Comments like that are just unedutcated, that is why the government has issued many pregnacy protection bills. Everything has personal consequences, however discrimination is not one of them,

The problem is that plenty of people seem to have forgotten the right of the employers. That's not to say that employers are downtrodden, but so many people in modern Ireland think that they should be able to walk all over an employer because they're the big, bad elite.

As I state quite reasonable above, why should an employer feel guilty about not hiring a pregnant woman, if they quite blatantly do not suit the position in the short-term?

dbnavan

seamus wrote:

There's absolutely no difference, provided that the employer is well aware of the need, when hiring in the former case.

As stated in the law the employee only has to give 4 weeks notice, up until then they dont have to disclose, and its none of the empolyers business.

seamus

dbnavan wrote:

As stated in the law the employee only has to give 4 weeks notice, up until then they dont have to disclose, and its none of the empolyers business.

I noticed that, but we're on to debating the moral side of it here.
Put down your "I'm going to be a Daddy soon" stick and think what you would feel if you were a small employer who's just hired some girl. She's there to replace the previous guy who pissed off without any notice, and left a huge backlog of work, and a pile of irate clients behind him. You're delighted that this girl is coming in. She interviewed well, she's friendly and she's qualified. You're optimistic that she'll actually get through it all in about a year and improve client relations.

Then 2 months later, she's quite clearly pregnant, and will only be halfway through the workload by the time she's gone on maternity leave. The rest of your staff, who've had their workloads initially lifted by her joining, have taken on more work, so there's no way you can possibly survive without her while she's gone on maternity leave. So you have to pay a contractor even more money for the 22 weeks that she's gone, purely to keep your business from collapsing.

Would you be pissed off and tempted to fire her?

dbnavan

seamus wrote:

I noticed that, but we're on to debating the moral side of it here.
Put down your "I'm going to be a Daddy soon" stick and think what you would feel if you were a small employer who's just hired some girl. She's there to replace the previous guy who pissed off without any notice, and left a huge backlog of work, and a pile of irate clients behind him. You're delighted that this girl is coming in. She interviewed well, she's friendly and she's qualified. You're optimistic that she'll actually get through it all in about a year and improve client relations.

Then 2 months later, she's quite clearly pregnant, and will only be halfway through the workload by the time she's gone on maternity leave. The rest of your staff, who've had their workloads initially lifted by her joining, have taken on more work, so there's no way you can possibly survive without her while she's gone on maternity leave. So you have to pay a contractor even more money for the 22 weeks that she's gone, purely to keep your business from collapsing.

Would you be pissed off and tempted to fire her?

Would I be pissed.....probably yes,

Anything I could do about, no.

Fire her?? Not worth the court battle, I'd lose

Put down your "I'm going to be a Daddy soon" stick. Who told u? ~~Thinks back~~, did I annouce it here yet??

and I dont have a stick, thats what debating is about.

seamus

dbnavan wrote:

Fire her?? Not worth the court battle, I'd lose

Probably. But in the above circumstances, I'd probably go for it on principle

Put down your "I'm going to be a Daddy soon" stick. Who told u? ~~Thinks back~~, did I annouce it here yet??

I assumed. Why else would you ask?

dbnavan

seamus wrote:

Probably. But in the above circumstances, I'd probably go for it on principle

Principles dont make you right. And in this case would lose you alot of money

seamus wrote:

I assumed. Why else would you ask?

Could be a sister, friend, cousin, however your right its the wife, expecting our first

Well thats it the cats out the bag, dbnavan's gonna be a daddy for the first time and is very happy about it.

Sleipnir

Well congratulation dbnavan, welcome to the club. My second kid is expected, well, today!

seamus

Well congrats!

FTR, I'm not an employer, so you're safe on that count

Mr. Presentable

seamus wrote:

I noticed that, but we're on to debating the moral side of it here.
Put down your "I'm going to be a Daddy soon" stick and think what you would feel if you were a small employer who's just hired some girl. She's there to replace the previous guy who pissed off without any notice, and left a huge backlog of work, and a pile of irate clients behind him. You're delighted that this girl is coming in. She interviewed well, she's friendly and she's qualified. You're optimistic that she'll actually get through it all in about a year and improve client relations.

Then 2 months later, she's quite clearly pregnant, and will only be halfway through the workload by the time she's gone on maternity leave. The rest of your staff, who've had their workloads initially lifted by her joining, have taken on more work, so there's no way you can possibly survive without her while she's gone on maternity leave. So you have to pay a contractor even more money for the 22 weeks that she's gone, purely to keep your business from collapsing.

Would you be pissed off and tempted to fire her?

I have a very small company, three people, and in the above scenario taking on a person would put me out of business.

I don't agree with discriminating against a person who wants to have kids, but I also don't agree I should be the one to pay for it.

Sleipnir

Well I sort of agree with that.
I believe the government (and past governments) are mostly responsible.
They called for women to go into the workforce, so the women did. Then the women said
"how are we going to have kids and keep working?" and the govenments said
"that's not our problem, you went out and got a job"

Wait a few years and the government will be saying
"Ladies, leave the workforce and have kids!"

dbnavan

nipplenuts wrote:

I have a very small company, three people, and in the above scenario taking on a person would put me out of business.

I don't agree with discriminating against a person who wants to have kids, but I also don't agree I should be the one to pay for it.

The employerr does not have to pay for materity leave Social Welfare do that all you'd have to do is hire a temp. Meaning the only cost involved would be cost of recruiting

Boggles

Litcagral wrote:

eeyore's mate wrote:

It's part of your fundamental rights living in Ireland that you don't have to divulge personal information to your (potential) employers.QUOTE]


An employer is entitled to know any personal information IF it may affect one's ability to do one's job (e.g. pregnancy, illness, disability etc.).

An employer is not entitled to know personal information which is unconnected with one's ability to do one's job (e.g. religion, sexual preferences).

Would this persons quote not answer the original question if it is indeed taken from something legally binding?

daisychain

Congratulations! When is the baby due?

I'm thinking similar thoughts, but not pregnant. I've been trying to get pregnant since last summer, unsuccessfully but AFAIK problems were temporary due to long term pill use etc. and I'm fairly back to normal now and ready to go

problem with job is I'm on a temporary contract, I thought i'd conceive straight away, (I did when I was 18 and wasn't even trying :eek: ) and by the time my contract (covering maternity leave, ironically) ended, I'd be nearly ready to pop myself. But now I have 10 weeks left in the job and am starting to look for another. work have asked me to stay on another 12 months (some1 else going out on ML!) but i declined as I can't guarantee I'll be available that long. If I get pregnant this month, I'll be 10 weeks gone starting whatever new job I get and really won't start to show til about 20 weeks, won't be going out on ML til 38 weeks so I'd be giving a good 6 and a half months work.

I don't see a problem looking for a job while pregnant, but I think I feel a bit cheeky all the same, planning to start a new job but planning to get pregnant at the same time. But its my life, as someone once said work to live, don't live to work.

b3t4

Article discussing the topic of the thread:
http://www.irishjobs.ie/forum/IndividualArticle.aspx?ForumTypeID=101&SID=7

Nine grounds of discrimination
http://www.equality.ie/index.asp?docID=48#q2

A.

dbnavan

b3t4 wrote:

Article discussing the topic of the thread:
http://www.irishjobs.ie/forum/IndividualArticle.aspx?ForumTypeID=101&SID=7

Nine grounds of discrimination
http://www.equality.ie/index.asp?docID=48#q2

A.

there iss the answer folks, I believe I was right all along ~coughs~, thanks b3t4.

~sits back waiting for someone to question it, ~ no doubt it will happen however irishjobs.ie is sound enough for me.

WhiteWashMan

dbnavan wrote:

there iss the answer folks, I believe I was right all along ~coughs~, thanks b3t4.

~sits back waiting for someone to question it, ~ no doubt it will happen however irishjobs.ie is sound enough for me.

its still not an official line, and the second item actually doesnt cover the instance of telling a prospective employer of your pregnancy.

so, while you may feel vindicated, i dont see any legal evidence that you are in the right position.

as for being right all along. now you just sound childish, which is quite distasteful.