What is Karma

Asiaprod

bluewolf wrote:

Eh peanuts was agreeing with me - what did you misread? I'm confused now =/

Er:o I think I am too. I have just spent the last two week down with influenza and boxes of pills. i think I must be going crazy. Let me go back over what I wrote in reply to what I thought I read. I have a feeling i missread a few posts. Sorry for the confussion, not 100% myself at the moment

coffee_cake

Asiaprod wrote:

Er:o I think I am too. I have just spent the last two week down with influenza and boxes of pills. i think I must be going crazy. Let me go back over what I wrote in reply to what I thought I read. I have a feeling i missread a few posts. Sorry for the confussion, not 100% myself at the moment

Aw, *hugs* get better soon!

democrates

May you get well soon asiaprod.

To add to the birth of the universe angle, 11 dimensional string theory now unites cosmology and quantum physics in a coherent mathematical model. The theory holds that the big bang was created by the collision of membranes which exist in the multiverse, and that there could be as many universes in the multiverse as there are stars in the sky, each with their own laws of physics. Some eastern religion postulated this long ago.

On cause and effect, if all that happens is decided by the laws of physics, then there is no such thing as free will. If my brain just follows physics, the outcome is unavoidable. I decide nothing, it just seems as if I do, I am like a passenger observing. Therefore there is no responsibility, and justice itself is irrelevant. In this scenario buddism or any other belief system is irrelevant, becauset the future is set.

But I like free will, so I choose to believe I have it. Yes physics is there, but it's not the only determinant of the unfolding timeline, we can make choices and change the future. We are responsible for our thoughts and actions, and justice is our highest practical aspiration.

Therefore my moral compass is to evaluate all thoughts and actions by four measures. The cost to myself, the benefit to myself, the cost to others, and the benefit to others. I take the view that every action eventually if not immediately has an effect on others.

This yields the following behaviour classifications, where C = cost, B = benefit, S = self, O = others :
CS, CO = Destructive
BS, CO = Selfish
CS, BO = Self sacrificing
BS, BO = Constructive

Obviously where there are costs and benefits on one side, it is the net of these that is counted. So far this is working out fine for me. Whether the mechanism for consequences is karma, physics, or divine judgement isn't critical, what's most important for me to feel good is to know I've been good.

That said I think the search for higher truth is fascinating. Would we be happy with a definite answer? I wonder. I think mystery makes life more interesting. No matter how tiny or colossal the scopes through which we gaze or the theories we imagine, we are still left with questions. For our minds, everything is made of something, and everything is in something. Furthermore we're not observing everything everywhere all the time. So we will always have questions. If there is a God I theorise that our free will and perennial wonderment are gifts without equal.

Asiaprod

bluewolf wrote:

Aw, *hugs* get better soon!

Thank you, there is nothing like a nice hug to make the day look better....and you give such nice hugs as well.:)

Asiaprod

democrates wrote:

May you get well soon asiaprod.

Aw, thank you for you kindness. And thank you for such an enjoyable post. There is great stuff here and you are raising issues here that I am sure many want to talk about so I will gladly start the ball rolling.

To add to the birth of the universe angle, 11 dimensional string theory now unites cosmology and quantum physics in a coherent mathematical model. The theory holds that the big bang was created by the collision of membranes which exist in the multiverse, and that there could be as many universes in the multiverse as there are stars in the sky, each with their own laws of physics. Some eastern religion postulated this long ago.

Oooh!!! This is a topic that I have spent years thinking about. I have to study the 11 dimensional string theory aspect as I know as much about string theory as a Kitten does about a ball of wool. What I am interested in is the idea of "many universes in the multiverse as there are stars in the sky", I have always wondered about this. What started me off was realizing that since the beginning of time there has been millions of people born, who also keep on multiplying, so by now we must have gone over the limit of what this earth can support. Otherwise there is an incredibly long line of individuals waiting to be reincarnated. The only four logical answers I could come up with were:
1. The number of individuals is fixed; the same group just continues to be reborn
2. There are more universes than the one we know.
3 There are other planets in this universe that we have not yet discovered that support life
4 There are many more dimensions than we originally thought.
And today I found a fifth possible answer that was posted by joseph dawton on the Pagan Forum

joseph dawton wrote:

If everyone was reincarnated that would be impossible unless people shared souls as there are more people alive now than have existed in human history. This begs the questions are some people new souls?

Personally I believe yes, I am not entirely sure about what the Greeks called metempsychosis or Transmigration of Souls - they (and also the Druids) believed we could transform into a tree or dog or anything else not just humans.

I do believe in an afterlife and from looking at people I could well believe that some souls are old and others new. Perhaps it's true that we keep returning until we have fulfilled our soul's destiny? There's no real way to find out without dying as past life regression is not entirely reliable otherwise there are an awful lot of Cleopatras and Napoleons in the world!

I do of course believe in reincarnation. I have not to date given any thought to the idea of new vs old as I have always put this one down to progress in a previous life showing through in the new life. The idea of twinned or multiples reminds me of Aristophanes' speech in Plato's Symposium on the Origin of Love, I liked his idea of looking for our other half. I recommend anyone who has not yet read this to do so.

democrates wrote:

On cause and effect, if all that happens is decided by the laws of physics, then there is no such thing as free will. If my brain just follows physics, the outcome is unavoidable. I decide nothing, it just seems as if I do, I am like a passenger observing. Therefore there is no responsibility, and justice itself is irrelevant. In this scenario buddism or any other belief system is irrelevant, becauset the future is set.

Agree with you 100%

But I like free will, so I choose to believe I have it. Yes physics is there, but it's not the only determinant of the unfolding timeline, we can make choices and change the future. We are responsible for our thoughts and actions, and justice is our highest practical aspiration.

You nailed it better than I could have done

Therefore my moral compass is to evaluate all thoughts and actions by four measures. The cost to myself, the benefit to myself, the cost to others, and the benefit to others. I take the view that every action eventually if not immediately has an effect on others.

I like this approach a lot, and want to study it more before making a comment

what's most important for me to feel good is to know I've been good.

I think this applies to just about every belief system I know of.

That said I think the search for higher truth is fascinating. Would we be happy with a definite answer? I wonder. I think mystery makes life more interesting. No matter how tiny or colossal the scopes through which we gaze or the theories we imagine, we are still left with questions.

This is a nice quote to end this post with. I for one look forward to finding more answers and I thank you for such a thought provoking post.

Goodshape

Ah.. Babylon 5 by all account the type of thing I'm into (scifi) but I never really watched the show.

Asiaprod wrote:

If I decide to shoot my wife and her mother how will that effect you?

Something like that is bound to have an effect on what you post (or don't post) in this forum, for one thing. But I know what you're saying and that's hardly a fair answer..

The correct answer is 'who knows?' The effects of something like that could take decades to reach me, but I do think that the changing of situations - even on the other side of the world - will change, destroy and create situations everywhere.

Humm. It is an interesting concept. I know to little about the origins of humanity. I think any thing that comes up in this respect is speculation. We just do not know

That's very true. Although I don't feel it holds me back from looking at the posibilities.. it's almost liberating (and fun) to have many possible truths -- and all of them possible lies -- instead of one over rulling fact.

Therefore we all build the best scenario for ourselves. the one that makes us the most comfortable or makes the most sense at the time. As we grow older and learn more of the world around us we refine this idea more and more. In this case, all ideas are equally valid.

Exactly. I would also take it as a duty to keep an open mind about uncertin things. Some people seem to find this hard to do.

(of course, keeping a truly open mind you must also question the 'facts'. make sure they're not only true because you believe them to be).

What I do believe is that on a higher level there is some type of collective consciousness, but I see this collective if you like as all individual components. The sum of the parts making up the whole so to speak.

I know what you're saying but I think I'd prefer to look at it the other way -- that we amalgamate into one, like a glass of water into the ocean.

For me, the idea of remaining individual begs the obvious question -- why can't I remember? Does the memory of a thousand individual past lives comes to me only while I'm in the after/inbetween-life? And then taken again when I reincarnate? What would be the point?

And if the memorys, experiences and whathaveyou of a person are absorbed into a collective consciousness, with the idea of still maintaining individuals... I don't see the distinction of individual here either. We will be one collective.

So far so good. Let me ask you a question about this, we are here to explore, discover and experience. Ok, for what purpose are we doing this, just for the sake of exploring, discovering and experiencing? Could there be a higher purpose to these actions.

If there's a higher purpose than exploring, discovering and experiencing, I haven't found it.

If so, what could it be? What would it all mean if we just carried out these actions and just died? Who or what would benefit, the collective consciousness.

Hmm.. who knows, again . I read a great theory that supposed life on this planet was, in essence, planted here by supreme-being extra terrestrials way way back in the beginning. Over the millenia the life grew and 'we' are just a part of its latest manifestation.

Aparently this is a life in its larva stage. The eventual outcome is that we will evolve to a point where we are capable of leaving this planet to another space or dimension and join the family, so to speak. Of course It's taken a hell of a long time (in our perception) so far and there's not much to suggest it hasn't got the same amount of time to go.

Sounds wacky but it's not without it's charm either.

Its all belongs to you and you alone. It goes with you, and your mission, should you accept it, is to continue to refine yourself, work of this bad karma and attain enlightenment.

I can't accept that while at the same time assuming we're all one, on one mission.

I would strongly disagree. Its all belongs to you. If I follow your line of thinking then what it says to me is that I, the entity you all know as asiaprod, is just an experimental probe. He is being used to pass on his experience for the greater good. In other words, he was created to be used. He does not have to take responsibility for his action. There is not repayment due from him for any bad things he did. He is just our tool so that we, the higher consciousness (for want of a better name), can experience and grow. Then if this is the case, there is nothing stopping me going out now and robbing that bank to live comfortably for the rest of my days.

Yes and no. You may be 'just an experimental probe', if you want to put it that way, but you are also yourself a part of the collective consciousness which is conducting the 'experiement'. You are living and experiencing for the benifit of everyone and everything.

And as I don't think life (another word for the collective consciousness) on this planet has reached the end its cycle, I think the best thing we can do is to keep discovering, growing, keep the karma good and look forward to the future.

Yes, there is a lot to ponder here, and I hope we can over the duration work through this. I can state with conviction that this action is neither a selfish nor an unattainable goal. I would even venture so far as to say, this is the meaning of life.

Perhaps

I'll remain open to the posibility.

Goodshape

democrates wrote:

lots of stuff

All fasinating. I must read up on string throry ideas.

I don't discount the idea that of the unavoidable physics-based outcomes either, but I think there's an x-factor that this doesn't account for.

Asiaprod

Goodshape wrote:

Originally Posted by Asiaprod

Goodshape wrote:

If I decide to shoot my wife and her mother how will that affect you?

Something like that is bound to have an effect on what you post (or don't post) in this forum, for one thing. But I know what you're saying and that's hardly a fair answer.

I think you misunderstand my comment Goodshape. This is a very fair answer. Your original question was: All life on this planet (and therefore all life we know of in the universe) is necessary for my existence as it is today. Change any part of it and I too will experience change (the butterfly flapping its wings...). We are therefore all connected. All one. And I asked you a question in return:
If I decide to shoot my wife and her mother how will that affect you?
That is a valid question to ask. It is not any taking of any position by me. You claim it will affect you, I am fine with that, all I am asking is for you to explain how it will affect you. This is for the purpose of learning how others feel and understand Buddhism. I am very aware of what I post and am the first to admit when making an error. I just want to see what you will say, without the Butterflies or the one hand clapping:)

Goodshape

hmm.. this thread has gotten very confusing for some reason :-/

Asiaprod wrote:

And I asked you a question in return: [/FONT]
If I decide to shoot my wife and her mother how will that affect you?
That is a valid question to ask.

Yes, it is valid. When I said "that's hardly a fair answer.." I was referring to my own answer to that question -- that you killing your wife and mother in law would effect what you post here, and therefor effect me.

But in the case of you being a total 100% stranger, then I can no more predict what effects it would have on me than I can predict the future. But :

Goodshape wrote:

I do think that the changing of situations - even on the other side of the world - will change, destroy and create situations everywhere.

I'm not neccessarally talking about earth shattering (or even noticable) changes in most cases.

It's not actually something I've thought about much on practical terms tbh :-/

Asiaprod

Goodshape wrote:

hmm.. this thread has gotten very confusing for some reason :-/

Yes, sorry for this. I was quite at a loss as to what was happening.

Yes, it is valid. When I said "that's hardly a fair answer.." I was referring to my own answer to that question -- that you killing your wife and mother in law would effect what you post here, and therefore effect me.

Ah, my apologies, I took it that you were saying my answer was unfair and I was surprised (and a little hurt :-(, I`m a sensitive Buddhist)

But in the case of you being a total 100% stranger, then I can no more predict what effects it would have on me than I can predict the future.

I think that was the point I was trying to make to you, it just came out all wrong

I'm not necessarily talking about earth shattering (or even noticeable) changes in most cases.

Understood, now what you say makes sense to me. Thanks for promptly clearing it up. I like the fact that this forum rarely degenerates into bickering, and all misunderstanding get sorted out quickly.

Asiaprod

Goodshape wrote:

I know what you're saying but I think I'd prefer to look at it the other way -- that we amalgamate into one, like a glass of water into the ocean. For me, the idea of remaining individual begs the obvious question -- why can't I remember? Does the memory of a thousand individual past lives comes to me only while I'm in the after/inbetween-life? And then taken again when I reincarnate? What would be the point?

I also used to have this question. When I asked for an answer to this question I told that of the four sufferings the Buddha talked about, birth, sickness, old age and death, birth and death are very special.
Death was the pain or suffering that released or spirit from this earthly body, and that the pain of birth erased that memory of previous lives to enable us to experience this new rebirth. Well, that's the short version of it. I felt comfortable with this answer. I think the point to not remembering is that the spirit does remember and this shapes you as you continues on learning through karma towards reaching enlightenment. Again, this is my understanding, no claim to it being correct, but it does feel right to me.


One interesting thing I would point out is the story of a 12 year old girl in India, a Buddhist, who had an incredible experience of her previous life.
The girl remembered crystal clearly that in her previous life at the age of 12 she was playing by the river and either fell or was pushed in and drowned. She had vivid recollection of this event. Her story was taken up by a local film producer who researched her story and discovered that an event, just as she had described had indeed happened 12 years earlier. He persuaded her to join him in visiting the site of the tragedy. She did so , and this action released even more memories of her past siblings, mother and father and even the name of the village. They decided to visit this family without any pre warning on their part. The moment the family met the girl they knew it was their daughter and she in turn knew her sisters and mother and father. So strong was the instant recognition and feeling of being home, that the current parents of the girl upon meeting the parents and watching the girl just told her to go back and live with her original parents. As far as all were concerned it was beyond doubt that these people were here original parents. This story really impressed me, especially as there was never any commercialization of her story.
I will try to find the link and post it, it was a long time ago when I read of this girl. I think she may have appeared on Ripley's Believe it or not. Certainly, all the experts were baffled by her detailed knowledge of her previous life, but it was the siblings reaction to their long lost sibling and their shared memories that sealed the issue for all.
Of course we have to keep an open mind, but this was truly to all accounts a remarkable event.
I also have to point back to the Dalai Lama being a reincarnation that happens 39 days after death.

hairyheretic

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

Oh, you read my mind, I have the same one hanging on my wall. I am a big Dibert fan:D

hairyheretic

I found that one by accident today, but felt I had to post it here

I have a couple up at work myself .. one is Dogbert going "Welcome to Dogberts technical support, how may I abuse you?" and the other one something along the lines of

Dilbert - I realised that I hate everyone in the entire world. I used to think that there were some people I hadn't met that I might like, but now I think they're weasels too.
Dobert - How about a tiny and wide eyed child who loves you unconditionally?
Dilbert - Tiny weasels.

I work in support, in case you hadn't guessed

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

I work in support, in case you hadn't guessed

Yes, I guessed that.
My fav has to be Dilbert's "sanitation engineer" the mysterious character who has inexplicable knowledge of all subjects from science to philosophy, and a lot of Buddist quotes.;)

Yoda

Technically, in Buddhism, karma is "the fruit of volitional action".

Asiaprod

Yoda wrote:

Technically, in Buddhism, karma is "the fruit of volitional action".

Yoda, could you expand on what you mean by volitional action, thanks

Yoda

Action, or deeds, which one intends. Not accidents. "Luck is not a factor."

Asiaprod

Yoda wrote:

Action, or deeds, which one intends. Not accidents. "Luck is not a factor."

Thanks, understood it.

DinoBot

Asiaprod wrote:

Especially when you meet people who are really evil and they seem to have everything. I always console myself by saying enjoy it now, cause you will not enjoy what's coming down the line in your next life.

Hi Asiaprod,

That brings up a question I have. How do buddhists view disabled people or people who are having a tough life, from being poor ...... etc ?

I mean, are these people just working off bad karma. If so, it means they were bad in a previous life and so deserve what they are getting. It is just karma. ????

Were they evil and had everything in a previous life ?

coffee_cake

DinoBot wrote:

That brings up a question I have. How do buddhists view disabled people or people who are having a tough life, from being poor ...... etc ?

I mean, are these people just working off bad karma. If so, it means they were bad in a previous life and so deserve what they are getting. It is just karma. ????

Were they evil and had everything in a previous life ?

I don't think any of us are in a position to judge others and their circumstances like that. Actions have consequences, and perhaps this is a consequence of their actions in a previous life. It doesn't mean we should ignore them or show them any less compassion than we show anyone else, however. Definitely not a "well you must be a horrible person who deserved it so I'm not helping you" etc attitude is warranted.
Personally I don't think it matters how it started from an outside point of view, only that it's more suffering which they and perhaps those who are in a position to help, should try to overcome. Or cease. I suppose...

Asiaprod

bluewolf wrote:

I don't think any of us are in a position to judge others and their circumstances like that. Actions have consequences, and perhaps this is a consequence of their actions in a previous life. It doesn't mean we should ignore them or show them any less compassion than we show anyone else, however. Definitely not a "well you must be a horrible person who deserved it so I'm not helping you" etc attitude is warranted.
Personally I don't think it matters how it started from an outside point of view, only that it's more suffering which they and perhaps those who are in a position to help, should try to overcome. Or cease. I suppose...

Sorry for my delay, have been away on vacation.
Great answer, I agree totally. We cannot really say why these people are suffering so in this life. There is a school of thought that says we must all experience the four sufferings to progress, Birth, sickness, old age and death. If we miss one, we have to rebirth to experience that suffering. In one way this seems unfair, but in another, it seems correct. I guess it is not just a matter of leading a good life, but leading a life that does account.
What I myself have noticed is that quite a large percentage of people that I would consider to be much better Buddhists than myself seem to be suffering ill health or something else for one reason or another. The same applies for things like being poor or living in bad circumstances. They may have been rich before, but they may have earned their money from say slave labour. It is very tempting to say that they led a bad previous life, but we honestly do not know.

maitri

bluewolf wrote:

I don't think any of us are in a position to judge others and their circumstances like that. (...)
Personally I don't think it matters how it started from an outside point of view, only that it's more suffering which they and perhaps those who are in a position to help, should try to overcome. Or cease. I suppose...

As Acarya Shantideva says in "Bodhicaryavatara" A guide to a bodhisattvas way of life:

“If somebody does something because he is confused,
And another gets angry because he is confused, too,
How can we say who is innocent and who is guilty”

One should be compassionate towards everybody (us selves included). It is confsion and ignorance that creates suffering for everybody, we know that from our own lives and should therefore try not to judge, but to help if we can. And since we are all interconnected (and since our "outward" personality, feelings, thoughts and actions are part of change and impermanence), on a deeper level there is really no receiver and no giver.

If I understand it correctly...

coffee_cake

Sounds good, maitri *nod*

Asiaprod

maitri wrote:

“If somebody does something because he is confused,
And another gets angry because he is confused, too,
How can we say who is innocent and who is guilty”...

Very deep maitri, nice quote indeed.

maitri wrote:

“One should be compassionate towards everybody (us selves included). It is confsion and ignorance that creates suffering for everybody, we know that from our own lives and should therefore try not to judge, but to help if we can. And since we are all interconnected (and since our "outward" personality, feelings, thoughts and actions are part of change and impermanence), on a deeper level there is really no receiver and no giver“...

That was very nicely put. Following on from there could we also then say that by helping others we are really only helping ourselves

DinoBot

Thanks all

democrates

Asiaprod wrote:

Following on from there could we also then say that by helping others we are really only helping ourselves

Well, I wouldn't say *only* helping ourselves, some people use that to argue that everything we do is ultimately selfish.

As I posted before:

I measure all acts on the cost and benefit to myself and others. If you don't count all of these you fail to consider the full implications of your actions.
This yields the following behaviour classifications, where C = cost, B = benefit, S = self, O = others :
CS, CO = Destructive
BS, CO = Selfish
CS, BO = Self sacrificing
BS, BO = Constructive

Obviously where there are costs and benefits on one side, it is the net of these that is counted.

Whether the mechanism for consequences is karma, physics, or divine judgement isn't critical, what's most important for me to feel good is to know I've been good.

I'm interested to understand why people look to karma, what question does it answer for them? Is it for the comfort of belief that good is rewarded and bad punished? Are any decisions made differently because of a belief in karma? Or is it possible to behave well purely because it allows contentment to a person who knows right from wrong?

coffee_cake

democrates wrote:

I'm interested to understand why people look to karma, what question does it answer for them? Is it for the comfort of belief that good is rewarded and bad punished? Are any decisions made differently because of a belief in karma? Or is it possible to behave well purely because it allows contentment to a person who knows right from wrong?

Karma basically says that actions have consequences. This is plain enough to see on a daily basis, is it not?
We don't like having karma, because it prevents us from attaining enlightenment. A comfort? Most certainly not.
As for decisions made differently, I don't think mine are. I just don't like doing bad things. But I do keep in mind that what I do has results.

maitri

Asiaprod wrote:

Following on from there could we also then say that by helping others we are really only helping ourselves

I think you are right. On one level I think that all that we do towards our "neighbour" we do towards ourselves, and in a very concrete way.
And I think that realizing this gives us a very sane selfish motive for actions. Nothing wrong with that from my point of view.

When it comes to true unselfishness - or really selflessness - I believe that is when we understand in a deeper way that our normal self, our personality, ideas, and emotions are really empty of absolute being - then we are free, I think. Then we can stop clinging to what is impermanent and changing. Then we can really be of help to ourselves and the world.

This, at least, is how I understand the buddhist teaching of shunyata - emptiness.

Bluewolf wrote: "We don't like having karma, because it prevents us from attaining enlightenment. A comfort? Most certainly not."

I wonder, do you think karma could also been seen as something that can help us attaining enlightenment? That our everyday experiences can be viewed as valuable teachings that we can use - as our own personal dharma"wealth" - to help us on the way. If we don't run away from what it can teach us. (But if we do run, don't worry, it'll happen again and again and again until we learn... That, at least, is personal experience... )
I know some buddhist teachers teach it this way.

coffee_cake

maitri wrote:

I wonder, do you think karma could also been seen as something that can help us attaining enlightenment? That our everyday experiences can be viewed as valuable teachings that we can use - as our own personal dharma"wealth" - to help us on the way. If we don't run away from what it can teach us. (But if we do run, don't worry, it'll happen again and again and again until we learn... That, at least, is personal experience... )
I know some buddhist teachers teach it this way.

I suppose it is useful to learn more about it. I do regard a lot of experiences in life as opportunities to learn more, whether they're good or bad.
I suppose if we don't understand karma we're not going to figure out how to stop getting it.