What is Karma

Asiaprod

I just came across this nice short explanation of what Karma is. Its worth the read


There are 3 types karma:
karma created in this life which results are experienced in this life
karma created in this life which results are experienced in the next life
karma created in this life and which results are experienced after many lifetimes
Karma that is repeatedly done becomes very powerful. Karma that is done in relation to a powerful object such as one’s parents, etc. also becomes very powerful. This is true of even small harmful or disrespectful actions on the one hand, or small actions of service and respect on the other. This is especially true of actions done in relation to the guru, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. These are very powerful objects. Consequently, one can experience in this life the suffering results of negative actions committed in relation to the guru, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, as well as experience in this life the favorable results of any small virtuous actions done in relation to the objects of refuge.
The four general outlines of karma are:
1) Karma is definite. This means that having committed an action, one will definitely experience the appropriate result according to the kind of action done: virtuous actions bring positive results and non-virtuous actions bring suffering results.
2) Karma is expandable. This means that once karma is created, its results will be experienced in many, many future lifetimes. Thus, the suffering result of a non-virtuous action will be experienced many times, not only in this life but in hundreds or even thousands of lifetimes to come. It is said by Nagarjuna - the great pandit who is like a second Buddha and who propagated the Mahayana teachings, especially those on emptiness - that if one cheats one sentient being, then the result will be that one will be cheated for a thousand lifetimes by others. This is from Nagarjuna’s text Letter to a King. One shouldn’t be careless even in doing one small negative karma thinking this wont hurt me.
It is mentioned by Buddha in the sutra Dul lung, one small fire spark can burn piles of hay mountains high. Same, one shouldn’t think one small virtuous will not benefit me. Like the example, by collecting drops of water one a large bucket can be filled! Therefore one need to, by practicing remembrance and awareness, one should abandon even the smallest negative karma and practice even the smallest virtue.
3) Karma always has a cause. If one hasn’t created the karma, that is, if one has not done the action that is the cause, one can never experience the result of that.
4) Karma created is never lost. This means that once karma is created, it will not disappear of its own accord. If virtuous or non-virtuous karma is not interrupted, then it will never get lost. However, if karma is interrupted, then it can be destroyed. For example, by purifying a non-virtuous action, you can interrupt the potential to experience the suffering result. In order to interrupt negative karma, one must purify it through practices such as strong confession. If one has created negative karma such as the ten non-virtues or other negative actions, just living one’s life being scared, upset, and depressed, that alone is not a solution. The solution is to do something to purify the negative karma immediately. If negative karma has been created, then it can be purified.

coffee_cake

Sounds about right. I wonder how one can purify it.

hairyheretic

Asiaprod wrote:

2) Karma is expandable. This means that once karma is created, its results will be experienced in many, many future lifetimes. Thus, the suffering result of a non-virtuous action will be experienced many times, not only in this life but in hundreds or even thousands of lifetimes to come. It is said by Nagarjuna - the great pandit who is like a second Buddha and who propagated the Mahayana teachings, especially those on emptiness - that if one cheats one sentient being, then the result will be that one will be cheated for a thousand lifetimes by others.

I'd like to touch on this point.

If karma is expanded, as is given in that example, what of the ones doing the chaeting for those thousand lifetimes? Are they doing this solely to fulfill the karma of the one who originally cheated, or are they cheating themselves, their actions being directed towards the original person?

And if the thousand are cheating themselves, does their karma not multiply out a thousand-fold as well?

Is it possible to see yourself as an agent of karma (if thats an acceptable term) ? Can you act in a negative manner in order to fulfill someone else karma? And if you do, what are the consequences to yourself?

Asiaprod

bluewolf wrote:

Sounds about right. I wonder how one can purify it.

From what I was taught I believe it means finding Buddhism in you new rebirth and living according to the Buddhis ideal. I will touch on this a little better when I reply to HH's question. Hold on, I am studying furiously:eek:

coffee_cake

hairyheretic wrote:

I'd like to touch on this point.

If karma is expanded, as is given in that example, what of the ones doing the chaeting for those thousand lifetimes? Are they doing this solely to fulfill the karma of the one who originally cheated, or are they cheating themselves, their actions being directed towards the original person?

And if the thousand are cheating themselves, does their karma not multiply out a thousand-fold as well?

Is it possible to see yourself as an agent of karma (if thats an acceptable term) ? Can you act in a negative manner in order to fulfill someone else karma? And if you do, what are the consequences to yourself?

I think with all the complexity of people's actions and the consequences, it is no problem to be born into circumstances where there are people who cheat. It is what they choose to do, and one of the consequences is to help fulfil someone else's karma; another consequence is to incur bad karma.
That is how I would look at it anyway.

Sinister

i would look at this in a simplified way, so that karma is an action reaction causing action.

please correct me if im wrong,

Asiaprod wrote:

The four general outlines of karma are:
1) Karma is definite. This means that having committed an action, one will definitely experience the appropriate result according to the kind of action done.

if u are good to people then people will feel good, likewise if you are bad to people then they will feel bad, like a cause and effect.

Asiaprod wrote:

2) Karma is expandable. This means that once karma is created, its results will be experienced in many, many future lifetimes..

so if u were bad to someone else then they feel bad and may pass on the bad feeling further. bit like a pyramid or family tree diagram.
so for example on a larger scale, after being ruled by britain for so long and after so much conflict and trouble so much bad karma had developed in ireland that was continued for generations even after independance.

Asiaprod wrote:

3) Karma always has a cause. If one hasn’t created the karma, that is, if one has not done the action that is the cause, one can never experience the result of that..

someone has to get the ball rolling, how one behaves, good or bad will create a reaction unless one does nothing.

Asiaprod wrote:

4) Karma created is never lost. This means that once karma is created, it will not disappear of its own accord. If virtuous or non-virtuous karma is not interrupted, then it will never get lost. .

unless someone stops the good\bad then the karma gets passed on, remembering that passed on does not clear u of it.

karma is the feeling you give to others, how you present it and how its received and how they will then deal with it either creating more or stopping it there. because these things are part of our daily life then karma is part of our daily life. its how we conduct ourselves.

i dont follow the thinking that what comes around goes around lark. yes when you do bad things then bad things will happen but that it has a direct backlash, no.

bubonicus

Sinister wrote:

i dont follow the thinking that what comes around goes around lark. yes when you do bad things then bad things will happen but that it has a direct backlash, no.

Asiaprod

HH wrote:

If karma is expanded, as is given in that example, what of the ones doing the cheating for those thousand lifetimes? Are they doing this solely to fulfill the karma of the one whom originally cheated, or are they cheating themselves, their actions being directed towards the original person?

Wow, now we are getting into some heavy stuff.
At this point I have to make a stand and declare my position. I posted this thread on Karma because I believe it is great raw material for some worthy debating. IMHO, this is the best way for us all to learn together. However, like anything that passes down from hand to mouth it is subject to change. It has truths within it, but that does not mean it is the whole truth. I use these teachings as a springboard to discover new things. For any that have not, or do not remember clearly, the story of the Buddha’s enlightenment. Please indulge me while I recap it.
The Buddha achieved enlightenment based on his own experiences. He desired to pass this on to others. However, he realized that in order to grasp it, the others would have to also experience life as he had to a degree to enable them to understand what he was about to teach. He developed a 5 step program of teaching. “HE” called these the provisional teachings. They were meant as preparatory teachings to get us in the correct frame of mind to receive the true teachings which came later when he wrote the Lotus Sutra.
Step one, he declared that desire was a root cause of unhappiness and was something that had to be controlled and put in its proper place. Some of the listeners thought wow, that’s it I understand every thing, I got it. And rushed of to their respective villages to teach the idea that all we had to do to achieve enlightenment was to conquer desire.
They missed the next step.
Step two dealt with the mind, the Buddha declared that desire comes from the mind; to conquer desire meant we had to conquer our mind. Again some of the listeners thought wow, that’s it I understand every thing. I got it I got it, and rushed of to teach the idea that all we had to do to achieve enlightenment was to conquer the mind. (This one developed into ZEN.) And so on down the line.

The point I am trying to make, is that Buddhism does not strike suddenly like a flash of lightning. It is a process of investigation over I have no idea how many lifetimes. Each time, we understand the process more and more. I for one believe in continuity after death. This is not up for debate right now; it’s what I have come to believe after 30 years of very real and dedicated practice. However, someone here recommended keeping an open mind which was excellent advice and I will have many questions to ask he who-shall-not-be-named that will require a lot more than to answer:p . For me, it makes absolutely no sense to live a life, learn, and create good/bad karma to then just pass on. It would make the whole point of my life, well, pretty pointless. How can I create bad karma for myself that will be passed on as the responsibility of someone else? I can’t. That would be neither fair nor just. It is my cause and the effect must be directed back at me. I also do not agree with this multiplication formula used to justify the concept that Karma is expandable. I don’t believe it works that way. Karma is also referred to as an individual’s tendency to act/react in a give way to certain situations. In this respect, if we do not shall we say, fix this Karmic tendency, it will move with us. When we find ourselves in this situation again we will again act in the same way and the circle will continue. I can also act as the catalyst for others to create good/bad karma, as they can also be the same for me. Irrespective of which, the results will also come back on me. To this extent I believe I could use the phrase expandable. Nice phrase HH, an agent of karma. I am going to remember that one. It would make a great signature.

Sinister wrote:

So if u were bad to someone else then they feel bad and may pass on the bad feeling further. Bit like a pyramid or family tree diagram. So for example on a larger scale, after being ruled by Britain for so long and after so much conflict and trouble so much bad karma had developed in Ireland that was continued for generations even after independence.

This sounds very reasonable to me. It is actually borne out in the teachings when they refer to a persons Karma, and a country’s karma. It all has to do with the Buddhist principle of influencing our environment, instead of letting it influence us. “If the shadow is bent so to is the society”. This would certainly sum up the Northern Ireland issue.

Bluewolf wrote:

I think with all the complexity of people's actions and the consequences, it is no problem to be born into circumstances where there are people who cheat. It is what they choose to do, and one of the consequences is to help fulfill someone else's karma; another consequence is to incur bad karma.
That is how I would look at it anyway.

Very nicely put, I will definitely need to ponder more on the “help fulfill someone else's karma” bit as I am sure there is always an element of choice involved.

Sinister wrote:

I don’t follow the thinking that what comes around goes around lark. yes when you do bad things then bad things will happen but that it has a direct backlash, no.

Count on it that you will reap what you sow now or later. That to my understanding is an inescapable fact of life.


In ending, please remember that these are my thoughts. This is what I think. My life is a work in progress and is subject to change.

hairyheretic

Asiaprod wrote:

Wow, now we are getting into some heavy stuff.

It does make for interesting debating though.

Asiaprod wrote:

At this point I have to make a stand and declare my position. I posted this thread on Karma because I believe it is great raw material for some worthy debating. IMHO, this is the best way for us all to learn together. However, like anything that passes down from hand to mouth it is subject to change. It has truths within it, but that does not mean it is the whole truth.

There is wisdom to be found pretty much everywhere.

Asiaprod wrote:

How can I create bad karma for myself that will be passed on as the responsibility of someone else? I can’t. That would be neither fair nor just. It is my cause and the effect must be directed back at me.

Would it perhaps be better then to say that karma (good or bad) is attracted to a person, based on their own actions?

I do something bad. I now attract bad karma to me.
You do something bad. Your bad action affects me, as a result of the attraction of bad karma I am suffering.
Someone else does something bad, which affects you as a result of your bad karma.

Would that be a reasonable view?

Asiaprod wrote:

I also do not agree with this multiplication formula used to justify the concept that Karma is expandable. I don’t believe it works that way.

It does seem a bit too much. I wonder though if its meant as a guideline, rather than an absolute. Perhaps the meaning is that you will continue to suffer the effects of that action, repeated how many times, until you recognise, acknowledge and overcome it?

Asiaprod wrote:

Karma is also referred to as an individual’s tendency to act/react in a give way to certain situations.

I'd not seen that definition before.

Asiaprod wrote:

Nice phrase HH, an agent of karma. I am going to remember that one. It would make a great signature.

Feel free.

Sinister

Asiaprod wrote:

Count on it that you will reap what you sow now or later. That to my understanding is an inescapable fact of life.

youre not being very specific here,

what i ment was that if i go and do something bad now it doesnt mean that something bad has to happen to me in equal measure as a result of that one action.

could you possibly mean one of these.
1.by causing/aiding bad karma that lets say continues for 100s of years that one can be reborn into that karma either to add to it or be on the end of it.

2.bad karma could be a stain on the soul, the trueself, and so the stain would be carried by the trueself on the path until the stain is destroyed.

3.got to stand back from the picture for this one, we all are the living thinking learning and all experiencing universe, we are one, whats good for u is good for me and whats bad for u is bad for me. if i hurt you i hurt myself.
therefore by passing on bad karma you are actually hurting yourself.

i think "what goes around comes around" is just a way of making it digestable to the mass market. its quick its simple and will probably be the first thing someone says when you mention karma.

Asiaprod

Sinister wrote:

youre not being very specific here,

My apologies, I do not know the answer to everything. I too am learning.

what i ment was that if i go and do something bad now it doesnt mean that something bad has to happen to me in equal measure as a result of that one action.

Why not? For the sake of argument, lets assume that you are a drug dealer. Someone has not paid you, so you decide with your buddies to go teach him a lesson. You beat him up and as a result he dies of the injuries. Thats a pretty bad cause I think will agree.
You walk out the door of your house the next morning and slip on a banana skin and break your leg. That is your karmic return. Do you consider that a fair price to pay for killing someone? I do not. I imagine that the payback would be in proportion to the bad you did. If you knew it was bad and still did it, I could see the proportion being even bigger.

could you possibly mean one of these.

1.by causing/aiding bad karma that lets say continues for 100s of years that one can be reborn into that karma either to add to it or be on the end of it.

You do not get reborn into a karma, you inherit it by your actions. Its all yours and it travels where ever you go. Wither you add to it or end it is really up to you.

2.bad karma could be a stain on the soul, the trueself, and so the stain would be carried by the trueself on the path until the stain is destroyed.

Correct, but you do not destroy it. You have to atone for it in some way.

3.got to stand back from the picture for this one, we all are the living thinking learning and all experiencing universe

Not sure where you got this one from. I dispute this theory of we are all the living thinking learning and all experiencing universe. You are you, I am I.

Whats good for u is good for me and whats bad for u is bad for me.

That may not be the case. That is an assumption on your part. Its too general.

if i hurt you i hurt myself.

Thats true

therefore by passing on bad karma you are actually hurting yourself.

How do you pass on bad karma. Its yours. You made it you have to deal with it. You cannot give it to someone else.

i think "what goes around comes around" is just a way of making it digestable to the mass market. its quick its simple and will probably be the first thing someone says when you mention karma.

I can agree with this statement 100%

Sinister

it all seems very organised, you do hurt to someone then you get hurt, who decides your punishment, how badly you get hurt, when it happens.

good thinks happen to good people,
bad things happen to good people,
good things happen to bad people,
bad things happen to bad people.
thats life.

on the other hand from a spiritual sence i can see where youre going, a bit like the christians atoning for their sins before entering heaven.

Asiaprod

Sinister wrote:

it all seems very organized, you do hurt to someone then you get hurt, who decides your punishment, how badly you get hurt, when it happens.

That's an excellent question Sinister and is one I am still having trouble sorting out. What I do know its that it is not a someone. Just how it is decided is what I would like to know. I hope some other of our resident Buddhists here might feel the urge to put fingers to the key board here and help out. One of the things that attracted me to Buddhism in the first place was how well organized it was.

good thinks happen to good people, bad things happen to good people,
good things happen to bad people, bad things happen to bad people.
that's life.

Yes, funny how that works. Especially when you meet people who are really evil and they seem to have everything. I always console myself by saying enjoy it now, cause you will not enjoy what's coming down the line in your next life. Still get envious though:eek:

on the other hand from a spiritual sense I can see where you're going, a bit like the Christians atoning for their sins before entering heaven.

In the broadest sense, yes, something like that. We want to get rid of as much Karma as we can in this life to enjoy better fortune in the next.

Asiaprod

HH wrote:

It does make for interesting debating though.

It does indeed. It is so nice to have meaningfull discussion without the arguing and fighting that generallly follows. This is cool.

There is wisdom to be found pretty much everywhere..

Never was a truer word spoken. This was another of thethings that attracted me to Buddhism. It was one of the core points, to look everywhere for truth and study other beliefs to see how they can apply or relate to you.

Would it perhaps be better then to say that karma (good or bad) is attracted to a person, based on their own actions?.

Very close, very close indeed. Karma exists in a dormant state (for simplicity sake). It is neither good nor bad in an of itself, but it has the potential to be either. It is an integral part of a persons makeup. The closest concept to it would be the Christian soul i.e everyone has got one weither they believe it or not. Karma rides along with you, its all yours and nobody elses. As you go through your day it racks up the good points and the bad points and does all the balancing calculations for you. Keeping this explimnation very simple, if the karma is negitivley balanced it will draw negative influences to it. If it is positivly balanced it will draw positive influences to it....it of course being you. Sorry for my feeble attempt to explain it. This is the best I can do without running into pages.

I do something bad. I now attract bad karma to me.

You do something bad. Your bad action affects me, as a result of the attraction of bad karma I am suffering.
Someone else does something bad, which affects you as a result of your bad karma.

Would that be a reasonable view?

It would be a short and very reasonable view IMHO. If you keep this up, you will end up teaching me.

It does seem a bit too much. I wonder though if its meant as a guideline, rather than an absolute. Perhaps the meaning is that you will continue to suffer the effects of that action, repeated how many times, until you recognise, acknowledge and overcome it?

a perfect 100% score, it is exactly just like that

Karma is also referred to as an individual’s tendency to act/react in a give way to certain situations.

I'd not seen that definition before.

Oh yes, very much so. How many time have you heard the expression "it just my karma" in reply to something that keeps going wrong. Simple example, some guy who just has no luck getting a girl friend. Every time it starts to get good, something goes wrong and it breaks down. Is this a result of a past karmic action. No, it is more likely to be a karmic tendency. Again the example. everytime the girl show a careing side to him, he takles advantage of her and expects her to wait on him hand and foot. This is his karmic tendency, to be selfish. Boy I can hear all those ladies out their nodding their heads and muttering yes yes.:eek:

hairyheretic

Asiaprod wrote:

It does indeed. It is so nice to have meaningfull discussion without the arguing and fighting that generallly follows. This is cool.

As was stated in the karma / grace thread, you get back what you put out. If you can discuss things civilly, you get a good debate.

Asiaprod wrote:

Never was a truer word spoken. This was another of the things that attracted me to Buddhism. It was one of the core points, to look everywhere for truth and study other beliefs to see how they can apply or relate to you.

Its something I believe in, but doesn't come from any kind of teaching.

Asiaprod wrote:

Very close, very close indeed. Karma exists in a dormant state (for simplicity sake). It is neither good nor bad in an of itself, but it has the potential to be either. It is an integral part of a persons makeup. The closest concept to it would be the Christian soul i.e everyone has got one weither they believe it or not. Karma rides along with you, its all yours and nobody elses. As you go through your day it racks up the good points and the bad points and does all the balancing calculations for you. Keeping this explimnation very simple, if the karma is negitivley balanced it will draw negative influences to it. If it is positivly balanced it will draw positive influences to it....it of course being you. Sorry for my feeble attempt to explain it. This is the best I can do without running into pages.

Thats not a problem. Did you ever have a look into wyrd? I know I've mentioned it before, and it is quiet similar to karma, though (to my knowledge) without the reincarnation aspect.

Asiaprod wrote:

]It would be a short and very reasonable view IMHO. If you keep this up, you will end up teaching me.

Well, I intend doing that anyway, just not with buddhism . After LepreCon is over this weekend I should have more free time, so can start going through the futhark with you.

Asiaprod wrote:

Oh yes, very much so. How many time have you heard the expression "it just my karma" in reply to something that keeps going wrong. Simple example, some guy who just has no luck getting a girl friend. Every time it starts to get good, something goes wrong and it breaks down. Is this a result of a past karmic action. No, it is more likely to be a karmic tendency. Again the example. everytime the girl show a careing side to him, he takles advantage of her and expects her to wait on him hand and foot. This is his karmic tendency, to be selfish. Boy I can hear all those ladies out their nodding their heads and muttering yes yes.:eek:

Interesting. I can understand patterns of behaviour having assorted root causes, but I've never heard of a karmic link to them.

coffee_cake

hairyheretic wrote:

Interesting. I can understand patterns of behaviour having assorted root causes, but I've never heard of a karmic link to them.

Since it is just "action", then I suppose a tendency to a particular action is reasonable enough to see


I wouldn't look at karma as being quite so organised since it's mostly just the law of cause and effect, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, which carries on from physics. Maybe the natural tendency is to balance

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

Well, I intend doing that anyway, just not with buddhism . After LepreCon is over this weekend I should have more free time, so can start going through the futhark with you.

I will look forward to that, enjoy the LepreCon. By the way, what is the LepreCon?

hairyheretic

www.leprecon.ie

Probably the 2nd biggest gaming con around Dublin. I got drafted in to run one of the wargaming tournaments about a month ago. Specifically the Warhammer 40,000.

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

Probably the 2nd biggest gaming con around Dublin.

Sounds like heaven--oops, meant Nirvana. I used to spend hours playing Warcraft and Diablo I and II on my Mac, then the wife found out and Warcraft became a reality.
Now into Robin Hood. Rogues of Sherwood Forest

hairyheretic

Don't think we have any computer gaming at it. Roleplaying games and wargames for the main, probably some live action roleplaying as well.

Asiaprod

Here is an intesting quote I found that might help clarify some aspects of Karma, then again, it might just lead to lots more debate.:)

A fundamental teaching of Buddhism is the principle of dependent
origination. In other words, the idea that nothing exists alone, that all
phenomena arise from mutually interdependent relationships in response to
various causes and conditions.

Nothing exists in isolation. All things are intrinsically interrelated and
influence one another. The same is true of people. We are all supported,
aided, and influenced by others. Accordingly, we should be grateful not only
to our parents, siblings, and teachers but to everyone in the world.

Peanut

bluewolf wrote:

I wouldn't look at karma as being quite so organised since it's mostly just the law of cause and effect, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, which carries on from physics. ...

I've always understood it to be that - action & re-action translated to a non-physical dimension. Part of Natural Law, not decided by anyone, non-judgemental, but not necessarily an obvious 'equal & opposite reaction'. (also in Physics I think the action & reaction is not always so clear..)

democrates

What I like about Bhuddism is it's non-interference with others.
What I don't like about Bhuddism is it's non-interference with others.
Fine in theory to keep to yourself and pursue enlightenment, but hark - "It wasn't the jibes of my enemys that hurt the most, but the silence of my friends"
Sometimes lack of activity is wrong, because sometimes bad people force you to choose the lesser of two evils. Doing nothing except meditating in a temple while others suffer horribly is not exactly honourable in my book.

Asiaprod

democrates wrote:

Sometimes lack of activity is wrong, because sometimes bad people force you to choose the lesser of two evils. Doing nothing except meditating in a temple while others suffer horribly is not exactly honourable in my book.

Very good points raised here democrates. I am glad to say that my practice is not confined to meditating in a temple. My temple is in my house and our daily lives revolve around it. On special occasions I will go to the temple just to refresh my spirit, to listen to lectures or to seek guidence when confused. I am very active in the community. Have been involved with worldwide Aids, and Holocaust/African awareness seminars and exhibitions. For me, not to take action constitutes a selfish practice. It was not what the Buddha was about, and is not what we Buddhists should be about either

Asiaprod

Peanut wrote:

I've always understood it to be that - action & re-action translated to a non-physical dimension. Part of Natural Law, not decided by anyone, non-judgemental, but not necessarily an obvious 'equal & opposite reaction'. (also in Physics I think the action & reaction is not always so clear..)

Sorry Bluewolf, I misread your earlier statement. Peanuts take is correct.
Karma is highly organized, there are no gray areas. The law of cause and effect from which Karma is drawn is the central tenant of Buddhism and every thing else revolves around it. For every cause there is a definite effect which we experience as Karma. It may be instantaneous, it may be latent, but its there.

Goodshape

Hmmm... I've been meaning to read this thread for a while now, but I think I've been putting it off as this is a subject I'm still a long way from figuring out.

I believe in my idea of karma but I'm not at all sure how to articulate it (*ahem*, so here goes...)

3.got to stand back from the picture for this one, we all are the living thinking learning and all experiencing universe

Asiaprod wrote:

Not sure where you got this one from. I dispute this theory of we are all the living thinking learning and all experiencing universe. You are you, I am I.

I'm a bit suprised at that, Asiaprod. You are you and I am I in sofar as it matters on a day-to-day basis, but I've always found the idea of 'one life' to be fairly practical and beautiful. And also important to my understanding of karma. On a simple action-reaction basis, what benifits life on this planet will benifit me -- whether it be directly or indirectly.

All life on this planet (and therefor all life we know of in the universe) is neccessary for my existence as it is today. Change any part of it and I too will experience change (the butterfly flapping its wings...). We are therefor all conected. All one.


On another level I do feel that there's a good chance we are one consciousness experienceing itself subjectivly. If you imagine the start of the universe -- imagine that one grain of everything.. infintesimally small, without knowledge of anything because there is nothing to be knowledgeable about. There is only itself. So it sperates -- the big bang. The universe is created.

And billions of years later (no time at all when you conisder that time itself is irrelivent) the human race appears with an ability to think as 'individulas'. To look at each other, the world and the universe and finally see what its all about.

That's just one of a few ideas I have, but I like it and tend to revert back to it as it backs up my overriding 'meaning of life' -- which is that we are here to explore, discover and experience, like nothing before us has been able to do.

Asiaprod wrote:

How do you pass on bad karma. Its yours. You made it you have to deal with it. You cannot give it to someone else.

Does karma, in your view, get passed on to the next 'you' when you die (by reincarnation)? Or is everyone born with a clean slate?

My own view would be that karma is passed on through time, but is not linked to any one person or 'soul'. Taking the holocaust as an example, it will take (and is taking) the world a long time to get over that but I think it's something the whole world has to deal with, not only those who carried out the atrocities (in this or previous lifetimes). It is up to each individual to take onboard what has happend without letting it have a negitive effect on their own actions. If we can all live peacefully now, then the negitve karma of these past deeds will be undone.


As I said above, I like the idea (I try not to hold beliefs... but I do 'like' a few ideas) of 'one life'. I think that reincarnation happens but not on a one-to-one basis. On another thread I mentioned a metephore for unending life used by a monk on an RTE documentary... he said that a cloud does not simply cease to exist when it goes from the sky, it becomes rain, falls to earth and coninues on. Similarly your 'self' does not end when you die. But, when the rain falls it joins with many droplets of water, maybe even a river or an entire ocean. This gets heated by the sun and eventually becomes a cloud again. I think this too could be similar to life, or your sense of 'self'. The cloud which we started with will never exist again but what once made up the cloud will exist forever, in countless other clouds with coutless other combinations of 'droplets'. And in our case we will go on experiencing ourselves in countless different ways.

I'm still unsure wheather or not 'shuffling off this mortal coil' and steping outside the reincarnation loop into the universal consciousness (which records all information gathered through time and space) is a selfish and/or unatainable goal... or, indeed, maybe the whole idea is just nuts. But I do think that the universal consciousness is where the pangs of 'enlightenment' come from. And of course, figuring it all out is the reason why we're here.

Asiaprod wrote:

In ending, please remember that these are my thoughts. This is what I think. My life is a work in progress and is subject to change.

^^^ What he said



(why is it always stupid-o-clock when I read this forum?!)

Asiaprod

Goodshape wrote:

Hmmm... I've been meaning to read this thread for a while now, but I think I've been putting it off as this is a subject I'm still a long way from figuring out.

I believe in my idea of karma but I'm not at all sure how to articulate it (*ahem*, so here goes...)

I'm a bit suprised at that, Asiaprod. )

Hi Goodshape, its 12:30 and i have just pulled a double shift and am exhausted. I think you have missunderstood what i was trying to say here. Not you fault, just my bad writing. Let me get some sleep and I will try to explain what I meant to say. I think you will find it is in line with what you think.

Also let it be know that I have the greatest respect for bubonicus and feel he has a lot to teach us all.
Good night all, I am bushed

Sinister

i'm with Goodshape on this one

Goodshape

Asiaprod wrote:

Hi Goodshape, its 12:30 and i have just pulled a double shift and am exhausted. I think you have missunderstood what i was trying to say here. Not you fault, just my bad writing. Let me get some sleep and I will try to explain what I meant to say. I think you will find it is in line with what you think.

Cool. No problem, no pressure. if I picked you up wrong, at least it gave me a chance to get my own thoughts down.

And it was mild surprise, not outrage -- I'm always open to new ideas and viewpoints.

Asiaprod

Goodshape wrote:

Hmmm... I've been meaning to read this thread for a while now, but I think I've been putting it off as this is a subject I'm still a long way from figuring out.

I believe in my idea of karma but I'm not at all sure how to articulate it (*ahem*, so here goes...)

That was very well put.

I'm a bit suprised at that, Asiaprod. You are you and I am I in sofar as it matters on a day-to-day basis, but I've always found the idea of 'one life' to be fairly practical and beautiful. And also important to my understanding of karma. On a simple action-reaction basis, what benifits life on this planet will benifit me -- whether it be directly or indirectly.

(Ahem, clearing his throat and getting into preaching mode:rolleyes: )
I realize that I made one mistake when writing this post. That was I was directing it directly to bubonicus and had forgotten that all else would read it. This is kind of like Olympic fencing where both of us were claiming 30 years dedicated to our search and we were more or less feeling each other out.
What I was reacting to is the many hints at different belief systems I was reading in the OP. I saw Hinduism, Jainism, Vedic astrology and of particular irritation was the starstuff bit which comes strait from Babylon five ""Then I will tell you a great secret. Perhaps the greatest of all time. The molecules of your body are the same molecules that make up this station and the nebula outside, that burn inside the stars themselves. We are starstuff, we are the universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out. ( Delenn in Babylon 5:"A Distant Star). My answer, short as it was, was basically aimed to bubonicus that I did not go for this stuff. That is what the You are you , and I am I was aimed at.
Sorry for the confusion.

Now on to the other good stuff you posted

All life on this planet (and therefor all life we know of in the universe) is neccessary for my existence as it is today. Change any part of it and I too will experience change (the butterfly flapping its wings...). We are therefor all conected. All one.

If I decide to shoot my wife and her mother how will that effect you?

On another level I do feel that there's a good chance we are one consciousness experiencing itself subjectivly. If you imagine the start of the universe -- imagine that one grain of everything.. infintesimally small, without knowledge of anything because there is nothing to be knowledgeable about. There is only itself. So it sperates -- the big bang. The universe is created.

Humm. It is an interesting concept. I know to little about the origins of humanity. I think any thing that comes up in this respect is speculation. We just do not know, or have enough knowledge, to be sure. Therefore we all build the best scenario for ourselves. the one that makes us the most comfortable or makes the most sense at the time. As we grow older and learn more of the world around us we refine this idea more and more. In this case, all ideas are equally valid. What I do believe is that on a higher level there is some type of collective consciousness, but I see this collective if you like as all individual components. The sum of the parts making up the whole so to speak.

That's just one of a few ideas I have, but I like it and tend to revert back to it as it backs up my overriding 'meaning of life' -- which is that we are here to explore, discover and experience, like nothing before us has been able to do.

So far so good. Let me ask you a question about this, we are here to explore, discover and experience. Ok, for what purpose are we doing this, just for the sake of exploring, discovering and experiencing? Could there be a higher purpose to these actions. If so, what could it be? What would it all mean if we just carried out these actions and just died? Who or what would benefit, the collective consciousness.

Does karma, in your view, get passed on to the next 'you' when you die (by reincarnation)? Or is everyone born with a clean slate?

Its all belongs to you and you alone. It goes with you, and your mission, should you accept it, is to continue to refine yourself, work of this bad karma and attain enlightenment.

My own view would be that karma is passed on through time, but is not linked to any one person or 'soul'.

I would strongly disagree. Its all belongs to you. If I follow your line of thinking then what it says to me is that I, the entity you all know as asiaprod, is just an experimental probe. He is being used to pass on his experience for the greater good. In other words, he was created to be used. He does not have to take responsibility for his action. There is not repayment due from him for any bad things he did. He is just our tool so that we, the higher consciousness (for want of a better name), can experience and grow. Then if this is the case, there is nothing stopping me going out now and robbing that bank to live comfortably for the rest of my days.

Taking the holocaust as an example, it will take (and is taking) the world a long time to get over that but I think it's something the whole world has to deal with, not only those who carried out the atrocities (in this or previous lifetimes). It is up to each individual to take onboard what has happened without letting it have a negative effect on their own actions. If we can all live peacefully now, then the negative karma of these past deeds will be undone.

This is an excellent point and a very good way to look at it. I will take this on board. Thank you for that insight.

The cloud which we started with will never exist again but what once made up the cloud will exist forever, in countless other clouds with countless other combinations of 'droplets'. And in our case we will go on experiencing ourselves in countless different ways.

Exactly, that particular cloud will never exist again. What went into making that original cloud is the part of you that will live on through rebirth to rebirth and it will have to experience and deal with the karma that you in this life as the entity known as Gooshape the cloud, or Sinister the cloud, created, be it good or bad. There is no escape in Buddhism, you must pay for, or enjoy, the fortune you created. It does not, cannot, move on to someone /thing else.

I'm still unsure whither or not 'shuffling off this mortal coil' and steping outside the reincarnation loop into the universal consciousness (which records all information gathered through time and space) is a selfish and/or unatainable goal... or, indeed, maybe the whole idea is just nuts. But I do think that the universal consciousness is where the pangs of 'enlightenment' come from. And of course, figuring it all out is the reason why we're here.

Yes, there is a lot to ponder here, and I hope we can over the duration work through this. I can state with conviction that this action is neither a selfish nor an unattainable goal. I would even venture so far as to say, this is the meaning of life.

Hope that set the record strait. if you have any question on this, post them. I love finding answers to these questions.

I will rest my case on this final quote.

"Since according to Buddhism there is no permanent and unchanging soul there is no metempsychosis in the strict sense. However, Buddhism never rejected samsara, the process of rebirth or reincarnation; there is debate, however, over what is transmitted between lives. " To be honest, all higher Buddhist join their Hindu breathren in believing in rebirth/reincarnation. besides, where do believers think the curent Dalai Lama came from? Its stated very clearly, He is the reincarnation of the 13th Panchen Lama who was reborn 39 days after his original death. Buddhist do believe in Reincarnation, they just dont seem to be able to explain it very well:eek:

coffee_cake

Asiaprod wrote:

Sorry Bluewolf, I misread your earlier statement. Peanuts take is correct.
Karma is highly organized, there are no gray areas. The law of cause and effect from which Karma is drawn is the central tenant of Buddhism and every thing else revolves around it. For every cause there is a definite effect which we experience as Karma. It may be instantaneous, it may be latent, but its there.

Eh peanuts was agreeing with me - what did you misread? I'm confused now =/