VW's new TSI engine

Ayashii

What do people think about the new VW TSI engines that are coming out and supposed to be making an appearance in the Golf GT this month or next?
Big car performance from a 1.4L lump...

taken from http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/previews/59942/volkswagen_golf_gt_tsi.html

"The firm's innovative solution is the 1.4-litre TSI, which stands for turbocharged stratified injection. Based on the FSI petrol engine, the unit features a supercharger that operates up to around 2,000rpm, after which a turbocharger taker over. The result is 168bhp - about the same as the old 2.3-litre V5."

Will be interesting to see if the revenue/vrt/tax people are happy with this. Memories of the 1.3L Mazda Rx8 spring to mind which is classed as a 2.3L ....

SouperComputer

Will be interesting to see if the revenue/vrt/tax people are happy with this. Memories of the 1.3L Mazda Rx8 spring to mind which is classed as a 2.3L ....

Well, it is true, by virtue of the way the Wankel engine works it's effective capacity is equal to that of a 2.3L cylinder\piston engine. This is one reason why they are relatively heavy on fuel.

Since this TSI is a piston engine, I cant see revenue chancing their arm, but time will tell...

Turbocharged engines are apparently more effiencient fuel wise and produce less emissions for a given power output than a naturally aspired engine. So maybe vrt and tax people won't care.
But insurance companies will no doubt load this powerful engine into next year.

The rx-8 has a 1.3L wankel engine which works out classed as a 2.6L does it not?

kluivert

This is a great idea but VW, lowering emissions while keeping the power.

39mpg sounds very good and i would definately put my name down for one if i could afford it (Seriously doubt it)

I still think that TDi would be the better option.

Is RX8 with its 1.3 engine classed by the revenue as 2.6L, takes a joke.

kluivert

kluivert wrote:

Is RX8 with its 1.3 engine classed by the revenue as 2.6L, takes a joke.

Its a wankel engine, not a piston engine.

It generates upto twice the power for the same engine displacment.

Ayashii

I'm sure the insurance companies will load these cars even though they mus surely be safer in terms of overtaking etc. Will be intesting to see where VW position this in their pricing lineup without cannibalising existing offerings.

There was something funny about the Rx8 as I remember trying to buy one about 2 years back. I think that the motor tax is a 2.3 (for whatever reason) but my insurance company (Hibernian) classified it as a 2.6L and it was crazy money.

Henry Ford III

The idea of supercharging for low speed grunt plus turbocharging for top end power is not new.

168bhp is the crucial issue here for insurers, and they will charge accordingly.

The 1.4l capacity will help road tax, and keep the car in the low VRT bracket however.

maidhc

Henry Ford III wrote:

168bhp is the crucial issue here for insurers, and they will charge accordingly.

Possibly; but from personal experience hibernian do not change their premium depending on what variant of an engine you have; the higher powered variants are as insurance friendly as the weaker ones.

mike65

Just tell em its a 1.4 VW and they'll be fine! (its not a lie )

Mike.

Kermitt

I'm sure the Insurance companies will cop on, When i was changing after christmas asked Hibernian for quote on 01 1.9TDi golf, and they asked whether it was 90,110 or 130bhp version. Was a bit surprised by this, but ended up buying a 02 1.4 because the quote for a diesel was extortionate.
They are getting wiser to the power outputs of engines now, hence they ask for letters after the model of the car if there is any.

fletch

Kermitt wrote:

I'm sure the Insurance companies will cop on, When i was changing after christmas asked Hibernian for quote on 01 1.9TDi golf, and they asked whether it was 90,110 or 130bhp version. Was a bit surprised by this, but ended up buying a 02 1.4 because the quote for a diesel was extortionate.
They are getting wiser to the power outputs of engines now, hence they ask for letters after the model of the car if there is any.

Yeh when I rang up for a quote on a Fabia diesel...they said they wouldn't quote me on a performance car! Who ever thought they'd see the day when a diesel was classed as a performance car!

kluivert

I looked TSI up on the VW website and although this is not a new innovation, it is new from the point that this will be a production factory made car and not a car with bolt on aftermarket parts.

IMO a 1.4 or 1.6 engine is fast enough.

The servicing cost would be higher for the TSI, imagine the cost for a turbo or/and supercharger rebuild wow!

Id rather have the 1.6 after thinking about it.

bazz26

I cannot honestly see the VW marketing machine charging peanuts for this engine. I would expect it to sit below the GTi but far away from their bog standard 1.4 litre 75bhp version, maybe around the €30k mark and probably only available in one trim level, hence probably the GT badge.

It would have been nice to see it replace the ordinary 1.4 or 1.6 (8 valve) versions but in reality the high production costs of the supercharger/turbo just would not make financial sense I think.

It will probably replace the existing normally aspired 2.0 FSi (none GTi) engine here which costs around €29k. This is a tiny seller over here so it probably makes more sense to slot the 1.4 TSi version in there assuming they bring it to Ireland at all.

maidhc

Kermitt wrote:

I'm sure the Insurance companies will cop on, When i was changing after christmas asked Hibernian for quote on 01 1.9TDi golf, and they asked whether it was 90,110 or 130bhp version. Was a bit surprised by this, but ended up buying a 02 1.4 because the quote for a diesel was extortionate.
They are getting wiser to the power outputs of engines now, hence they ask for letters after the model of the car if there is any.

Interesting; I got the same quote from Hibernian on an 02 90bhp Focus TDDi as an 03 115bhp TDCi. Neither were extortionate!

Henry Ford III

maidhc wrote:

Interesting; I got the same quote from Hibernian on an 02 90bhp Focus TDDi as an 03 115bhp TDCi. Neither were extortionate!

I hope your bought the TDCI. The other one is old, slow and not too good in any respect tbh.

maidhc

Henry Ford III wrote:

I hope your bought the TDCI. The other one is old, slow and not too good in any respect tbh.

I did; fantastic car to drive and a far greater insurance risk than the TDDI

phoenix_nights

fletch wrote:

Yeh when I rang up for a quote on a Fabia diesel...they said they wouldn't quote me on a performance car! Who ever thought they'd see the day when a diesel was classed as a performance car!

Who would have ever thought a skoda would be classed as a performance car :rolleyes:

Kermitt

maidhc wrote:

Interesting; I got the same quote from Hibernian on an 02 90bhp Focus TDDi as an 03 115bhp TDCi. Neither were extortionate!

I'd well believe you, but I'm 22 and unfortunately had a wee tip last year and said bye bye to my no claims.. They wanted €4000 to insure a 90bhp TDi and only €1875 (Still a pain in the stones i know) for the 75bhp 1.4. Not much difference having driven both, 1.4 is pokey enough (Its the BSA engine thats in the 05 model). I think its because the cc of the car is that much higher. Although that would contradict the idea that they are wising up to power outputs

unkel

phoenix_nights wrote:

Who would have ever thought a skoda would be classed as a performance car :rolleyes:

You're too young to remember the 170BHP '74 Skoda 200 RS then?

Delta_ie

kluivert wrote:

I looked TSI up on the VW website and although this is not a new innovation, it is new from the point that this will be a production factory made car and not a car with bolt on aftermarket parts.

Its not new for mass production either. Nissan had a twincharged engine in the march/micra in the late 80's called the Superturbo...

unkel

bazz26 wrote:

maybe around the €30k mark and probably only available in one trim level, hence probably the GT badge

Yeah, looks like a good guess. About €31k and a few hundred I'd say based on the list price in the Netherlands of €30k (indeed only GT is available) and the slightly lower combined taxes over there

Manual GTI turbo:

NL: €33.7k
IE: €35.3k

Note that performance is nearly on a par with the GTI for €4k less. Might be an interesting proposition for the Irish market, depending on how tax and insurance work out

bazz26

unkel wrote:

Yeah, looks like a good guess. About €31k and a few hundred I'd say based on the list price in the Netherlands of €30k (indeed only GT is available) and the slightly lower combined taxes over there

Manual GTI turbo:

NL: €33.7k
IE: €35.3k

Note that performance is nearly on a par with the GTI for €4k less. Might be an interesting proposition for the Irish market, depending on how tax and insurance work out

I'd say they might start hitting GTi sales then (at least in Ireland anyway).

The Mazda rotary 1.3 engine is a nice excuse for the government to double the road tax as it is a different set up to a normal piston driven engine. Doubt they could get away with it on the TFSi engine.

VRT and insurance are a different kettle of fish and I think we will be totally at the mercy of the relevent parties involved.

Also if it is priced at around €31k then that puts it directly in competition with the new Octavia vRS which comes in at around €32k. Very interesting indeed.

unkel

bazz26 wrote:

Doubt they could get away with it on the TFSi engine

Agree. The tax saving for a 1.4l compared to a 2.0l is €247 per annum, so another grand added to the 4 grand price difference over a 4 year ownership

bazz26 wrote:

VRT and insurance are a different kettle of fish and I think we will be totally at the mercy of the relevent parties involved

VRT is also based on the engine capacity, but the prices we are comparing already include VRT. Insurance is the one to watch out for though

I would not be surprised if the insurance for the 1.4 TSI GT would be substantially lower than for the 2.0 GTI. Similar performance, but the TSI buyer is going the more sensible, value for money, route. I doubt he / she is in the same risk category as the "I must have a Golf GTI" fanboy-racer

bazz26 wrote:

the new Octavia vRS which comes in at around €32k

Not that impressed with that list price. The 1.8T vRS 180bhp version listed for €26k less than 3 years ago. What's the justification for that huge price hike?

Head The Wall

kluivert wrote:

I looked TSI up on the VW website and although this is not a new innovation, it is new from the point that this will be a production factory made car and not a car with bolt on aftermarket parts.

Lancia Delta S4 1985 0-60 in 3 seconds on gravel, same technology. NOt mass produced but they still had to make 200 of them.

http://www.stormloader.com/groupb/lancia.html

Henry Ford III

unkel wrote:

I would not be surprised if the insurance for the 1.4 TSI GT would be substantially lower than for the 2.0 GTI. Similar performance, but the TSI buyer is going the more sensible, value for money, route. I doubt he / she is in the same risk category as the "I must have a Golf GTI" fanboy-racer

I think the opposite will be the case.

If the performance is similar the insurance will be similar. They are both Golfs and would cost pretty much the same to repair.

In actual fact I reckon most co's might decline to quote, as this will be a relatively "affordable" performance car. The same thing applies to a Focus ST currently.

unkel

Henry Ford III wrote:

They are both Golfs and would cost pretty much the same to repair

The part of the insurance premium relating to the cost of physically repairing / replacing the car is only a fraction of the part of the premium relating to non material damages. It would cost me only a few euro more to comprehensively insure a brand new €60k BMW 525i compared to a brand new €30k Golf diesel

Henry Ford III wrote:

If the performance is similar the insurance will be similar

My very point was that that's not necessarily the case. The TSI buyer might be (I'm speculating here - only time will tell) more sensible and just looking for a bit more performance compared to the 1.6 FSI / 1.9TDI which both have a 0-100km/h acceleration of > 11 seconds. He / she might be a bit less boy-racer than the (same age, same gender) GTI buyer, hence a substantially reduced risk for the insurance company to pay damages

bazz26

unkel wrote:

VRT is also based on the engine capacity, but the prices we are comparing already include VRT. Insurance is the one to watch out for though

I know the rate of VRT is based on engine size but isn't the price it is calculated from influenced by VRT also? Isn't that why we see alot of poorly speced cars in Ireland as manufacturers try to keep the price down.

unkel wrote:

I would not be surprised if the insurance for the 1.4 TSI GT would be substantially lower than for the 2.0 GTI. Similar performance, but the TSI buyer is going the more sensible, value for money, route. I doubt he / she is in the same risk category as the "I must have a Golf GTI" fanboy-racer

I think the insurance companies will be wary and load it accordingly otherwise we could have a situation where young inexperienced drivers are insured on this 168bhp 1.4 for a similar price as other 1.4 cars.

unkel

bazz26 wrote:

I think the insurance companies will be wary and load it accordingly otherwise we could have a situation where young inexperienced drivers are insured on this 168bhp 1.4 for a similar price as other 1.4 cars.

Of course one would pay a lot more insurance for the TSI compared to the 75bhp bog standard 1.4

My point was that the insurance might still be a lot less than for a 2.0GTI Turbo, which only has fractionally better performance. In other words: relatively good insurance value for money for a decently performing car

bazz26

unkel wrote:

Of course one would pay a lot more insurance for the TSI compared to the 75bhp bog standard 1.4

My point was that the insurance might still be a lot less than for a 2.0GTI Turbo, which only has fractionally better performance. In other words: relatively good insurance value for money for a decently performing car

Agree. Definately cheaper than a GTi. Would anyone miss the extra 32bhp on Irish roads that much? That brings up my original point again that GTi sales could substantially reduce in Ireland especially if they decide to sell 1.4 GT with the DSG box.

unkel

bazz26 wrote:

That brings up my original point again that GTi sales could substantially reduce in Ireland especially if they decide to sell 1.4 GT with the DSG box.

Interesting to see what will happen. The 1.4 GT would be an attractive proposition over here, but then again, I'd say a lot of traditional GTI owners bought one as a style statement and they might not "move down" to a 1.4 GT

Perhaps VW will attract buyers from other makes to the 1.4GT? In that case they're onto a winner

HashSlinging

I'm really excited at the thoughts of the 1.4 Tsi, according to the press, it is replacing the 2.0 and apparently smaller engines are the way the R&D is heading in VW with '06 being the final year of diesel R&D, the 1.4 tsi is just the beginning of small petrol engine development. about time really.

maidhc

A quick google brought this up:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08/vw_introducing_.html

It wont take away too many diesel buyers with practically the same fuel economy as a 2.0 FSI petrol and less torque than the present 1.9 TDi.

I would imagine the developments with petrol engines will be nowhere near as dramatic as they have been with diesels due to the fact the fuel contains less energy.

lomb

i think vrt on 1.4s is only charged at 22.5 % of omsp, whereas 1.6 on are 30 % of omsp, so the 1.4 will make great sense there.
will be interesting to see how smooth the engine is. larger engines tend to run alot smoother.
also reliability of turbo engines is not good. many people on uk-mkivs are complaining about turbo failures on diesels. rebuild costs are more than fuel saved over 2 or 3 years!

HashSlinging

maidhc wrote:

A quick google brought this up:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08/vw_introducing_.html

It wont take away too many diesel buyers with practically the same fuel economy as a 2.0 FSI petrol and less torque than the present 1.9 TDi.

I would imagine the developments with petrol engines will be nowhere near as dramatic as they have been with diesels due to the fact the fuel contains less energy.

WOW I suppose your right but wernt diesel cars slow only 10 years ago, now look... maybe the same thing can be achived with petrol its called research and development. Besides who said anything about taking diesel buyers, VW have stated that they've really done everything thats possible with diesel, now the emphasis is going to be on petrol and other fuel sources.

maidhc

lomb wrote:

also reliability of turbo engines is not good. many people on uk-mkivs are complaining about turbo failures on diesels. rebuild costs are more than fuel saved over 2 or 3 years!

I would disagree strongly there. A turbocharger will last just as long as the rest of the engine if it isnt messed about though being switched off at speed and so forth. The basic design of a turbocharger is pretty straightforward, and really there isnt much to go wrong.

Turbocharging and supercharging is a very mature technology (weren't WWII spitfires supercharged...), Common rail diesels / FSI is not. I find the notion of a pump that compresses fuel to 1500psi slightly disturbing!

lomb

maidhc wrote:

Turbocharging and supercharging is a very mature technology (weren't WWII spitfires supercharged...), Common rail diesels / FSI is not. I find the notion of a pump that compresses fuel to 1500psi slightly disturbing!

it is but vw are i think putting the boost in earlier, so the turbo spools up more than in the past. all i know is that most of the complaints on uk-mkivs is from turbo diesels. there arent really any complaints from petrol owners. personally i think that the diesels shake the cars more and cause things to rattle and break. there are numerous reports of turbo issues there. i dont know alot about it, as ive never owned a turbocharged car.

Ice_Box

Prices out now from € 25,110

source www.carzone.ie

7. 1.4 TSI DSG GT 3 dr Hatchback Manual € 31,680
8. 1.4 TSI DSG GT 5 dr Hatchback Manual € 32,620
9. 1.4 TSI DSG SPORTLINE 3 dr Hatchback Manual € 27,295
10. 1.4 TSI DSG SPORTLINE 5 dr Hatchback Manual € 28,235
11. 1.4 TSI GT 3 dr Hatchback Manual € 30,275
12. 1.4 TSI GT 5 dr Hatchback Manual € 31,215
13. 1.4 TSI SPORTLINE 3 dr Hatchback Manual € 25,110
14. 1.4 TSI SPORTLINE 5 dr Hatchback Manual € 26,050

Ice_Box

Wait a second these might only be 140bhp

http://www.volkswagen.ie/configurator/index.cfm?fuseaction=vw.Variant&modelID=281&bodyID=4236

maidhc

The 1.4 TSI Sportline 1k cheaper than an equivalent 1.9TDi.

Hard to complain about the price really.


EDIT... Pity VW cant tell the difference between TDI and TSI on their website.

unkel

maidhc wrote:

Pity VW cant tell the difference between TDI and TSI on their website.

Yeah, what are they like? :rolleyes:

So looks like 168BHP has proven a bit too much and it's now deffo 140? Probably can be remapped to 168 if that's the case

fletch

Is it just me but I can't see the 1.4 TSI at all...I can see " 7. New Golf V 1.4 SPORTLINE 3DR TDI DSG 140BHP"
Oh I see it on carzone now...(was only lookin at the vw.ie site)

R.O.R

There were always going to be 2 versions of this engine. The 140ps and the 170ps. Looks like the Sportline is the 140ps version and the GT the 170ps version.

Ice_Box

I read somwehere that Audi have rejected the 1.4 tsi as its not smooth enough for their cars. The Jetta and Passat will have it as will Skodas

btkm8unsl0w5r4

ronoc wrote:

The rx-8 has a 1.3L wankel engine which works out classed as a 2.6L does it not?

Correct....taxed as a 1.7 and insured as a 2.6. It generates 232 BHp and goes like absolute stink and corners like a house fly. Very heavy on fuel averaging 25 MPG however mine runs more like 18 MPG :eek: .

CrowdedHouse

unkel wrote:

I'd say a lot of traditional GTI owners bought one as a style statement and they might not "move down" to a 1.4 GT

I certainly wouldn't anyway

Ice_Box

VW Jetta also has prices on www.carzone.ie
This is just adding to the confusion...

1. 1.4 TSI 170 BHP SPORTLINE 4 dr Saloon Manual € 29,580
2. 1.4 TSI 170BHP DSG SPORTLINE 4 dr Saloon Manual € 30,985
3. 1.4 TSI COMFORTLINE 4 dr Saloon Manual € 27,240
4. 1.4 TSI DSG COMFORTLINE 4 dr Saloon Manual € 29,420
5. 1.4 TSI DSG SPORTLINE 4 dr Saloon Manual € 30,215
6. 1.4 TSI SPORTLINE 4 dr Saloon Manual € 28,035

unkel

R.O.R wrote:

There were always going to be 2 versions of this engine. The 140ps and the 170ps. Looks like the Sportline is the 140ps version and the GT the 170ps version.

Ah, ok

Ice_Box wrote:

VW Jetta also has prices on www.carzone.ie
This is just adding to the confusion...

It is confusing. So the Jetta gets the 170BHP although it isn't called GT and the Golf doesn't get the 170BHP at all or just not yet?

HashSlinging

Ice_Box wrote:

I read somwehere that Audi have rejected the 1.4 tsi as its not smooth enough for their cars.

I'd seriously doubt that, as they've been using 80's technology (1.6 8v engine) in the current A4 - A3 range, but good enough for them i suppose.

endplate

The TSI 1.4 is 168HP as far as I'm aware and the 2l TDI's are available in 140 and 170hp. I think there is some confusion with the web people for carzone on the specs for the cars. I could be wrong but that is what it looks like to me

McSpud

The Golf 1.4 TSI has definitely been given VRT rate of 1.4L car.

Retailing at 26k for 140bhp & 30k for 170bhp.

Anyone know how insurers treating this? I suppose i could be treated as 2.0L?

I am tempted by the 140bhp but could take a while before find dealer with a model to test drive as they love those 80bhp 1.4s... 300 euro road tax for 140bhp is nice deal.

drdre

i test drove the 140 bhp at park motors 2 months ago.its much better than normal 1.4 golf.

McSpud wrote:

The Golf 1.4 TSI has definitely been given VRT rate of 1.4L car.

Retailing at 26k for 140bhp & 30k for 170bhp.

Anyone know how insurers treating this? I suppose i could be treated as 2.0L?

I am tempted by the 140bhp but could take a while before find dealer with a model to test drive as they love those 80bhp 1.4s... 300 euro road tax for 140bhp is nice deal.