Is Java hard to learn?

py2006

Hi guys,

A quick simple question. I have no programming experience other than perhaps HTML which isn't really the same thing.

I am considering doing a course in Java to give me a bit of a head start if I decide to do comp degree next sept!

How difficult is it to pick up a programming language like Java? and is it the best one to be working on at the moment as far as jobs go?

Thanks

Basq

Java is always a plus to know - mainly due to the fact it's platform independent.

I myself have a sustainable knowledge of C#, Java and VB and while Java would be the more difficult of the 3 in my eyes, it's definantly the most worthwhile to know. It isn't particularly difficult nowadays in the dawn of IDE's such as NetBeans which make drawing the interface take a matter of minutes using Drag-N-Drop controls as opposed to coding all the controls and where to place them on the form. Once you learn the basics, it's just extending your knowledge.

Give Netbeans a download and look through a few Java tutorials and see how you do.

Jobs are still pretty plentiful in Java.. though i'm seeing more and more for .NET developers!

On the plus side.. once you learn Java, you'll find most of the modern programming languages (C#, VB for example) to be a bit of a breeze.

Best of luck!

py2006

Cheers thanks for that

cyberwit

I am doing Java this year myself. My option is that JAVA is simpler to learn then that of C++ for instance. A great book for learning JAVA programming is Tony Mullins A First Course in Programming with JAVA.

Do an advanced Google search for PDF or powerpoint documents on JAVA example of one such helpful document is

http://www.eee.bham.ac.uk/spannm/Teaching%20docs/Java%20Course/EE2E1%20Lecture%201.ppt

DingChavez

It depends on the person really.

cyberwit

I would have to agree. But when starting out programming you do basically the same thing e.g. If statements , nested if, while statements etc the one thing different is the syntax of the different programming languages.:)

If i am wrong i await to be corrected .

Cake Fiend

py2006 wrote:

I am considering doing a course in Java to give me a bit of a head start if I decide to do comp degree next sept!

Don't bother, google for some Java primers. You can learn the basics in a few hours.

ARGINITE

cyberwit wrote:

I am doing Java this year myself. My option is that JAVA is simpler to learn then that of C++ for instance.

After learning C/C++ I think Java makes you lazy.
I thinks its easier to learn because its so well documented.

seamus

ARGINITE wrote:

After learning C/C++ I think Java makes you lazy.

If you're referring to memory management/efficiency, then you're probably right - I don't remember any lecturer giving us tips on writing the most efficient or the least bloated Java code.

That said, the fact that it's 100% OO, it's much easier to write well-structured Java code than to write dirty, badly designed code, almost forcing at least some good habits into novice programmers. C++'s backwards compatibility gives you scope to write dirty little hacks with little to no penalty when first starting out.

All languages have their upsides and downsides. The essence of programming is getting a general programming grounding. After that, learning a new language becomes easy. Imagine if every human language had an extremely similar structure and way of arranging words - all you'd have to do is learn new words for the same phrases. Programming languages work quite like this, with some notable exceptions (e.g Lisp).

For a starter language, Java isn't easy but after a couple of weeks (and particularly when OOP "Clicks") you'll be flying.

cyberwit

I studied C++ as well. I think we can all agree that doing any programming language is difficult it all depends on how logical a mind you have and if you can search Google for the mathematic equations.

Programming can be an enjoyable experience but requires some commitment.

Hobbes

Java was written to fix C++ shortcomings when it came to coding for devices+network at that time.

It still has the stigmata with a lot of developers (mainly those that don't code in it) that it is slow. This was the case when it started off. A bad JVM and everyone writing poor applets.

Nowdays though the JIT compilers can outperform native compiled code (however moreso for longer running programs).

it's much easier to write well-structured Java code than to write dirty, badly designed code,

That said Java alone won't teach you how to code well. I have seen piss poor code before. The best I have seen are (not mine)...

- System.gc() littered throughout the code.
- Created a bean but only had half of the getters/setters working and then ignored them half the time and used the variables which were public directly.
- Creating multiple variables in subclasses and then using various methods to access the data which would populate different variables.
- Creating temp variables as global to the object.

...
One more thing based on posts seen on this forum, knowing how to write something in Java and knowing how to code are two different things.

If you don't know how to even pseduo code your in for a hard time.

py2006

cyberwit wrote:

I am doing Java this year myself. My option is that JAVA is simpler to learn then that of C++ for instance. A great book for learning JAVA programming is Tony Mullins A First Course in Programming with JAVA.

Do an advanced Google search for PDF or powerpoint documents on JAVA example of one such helpful document is

http://www.eee.bham.ac.uk/spannm/Teaching%20docs/Java%20Course/EE2E1%20Lecture%201.ppt

Cheers, I was just about to ask for book recommendations!

py2006

Hobbes wrote:

Java was written to fix C++ shortcomings when it came to coding for devices+network at that time.

It still has the stigmata with a lot of developers (mainly those that don't code in it) that it is slow. This was the case when it started off. A bad JVM and everyone writing poor applets.

Nowdays though the JIT compilers can outperform native compiled code (however moreso for longer running programs).



That said Java alone won't teach you how to code well. I have seen piss poor code before. The best I have seen are (not mine)...

- System.gc() littered throughout the code.
- Created a bean but only had half of the getters/setters working and then ignored them half the time and used the variables which were public directly.
- Creating multiple variables in subclasses and then using various methods to access the data which would populate different variables.
- Creating temp variables as global to the object.

...
One more thing based on posts seen on this forum, knowing how to write something in Java and knowing how to code are two different things.

If you don't know how to even pseduo code your in for a hard time.

I've no idea what all that means but thanks anyway!

Ag marbh

Hobbes wrote:

Java was written to fix C++ shortcomings when it came to coding for devices+network at that time.

It still has the stigmata with a lot of developers (mainly those that don't code in it) that it is slow. This was the case when it started off. A bad JVM and everyone writing poor applets.

Nowdays though the JIT compilers can outperform native compiled code (however moreso for longer running programs).



That said Java alone won't teach you how to code well. I have seen piss poor code before. The best I have seen are (not mine)...

- System.gc() littered throughout the code.
- Created a bean but only had half of the getters/setters working and then ignored them half the time and used the variables which were public directly.
- Creating multiple variables in subclasses and then using various methods to access the data which would populate different variables.
- Creating temp variables as global to the object.

...
One more thing based on posts seen on this forum, knowing how to write something in Java and knowing how to code are two different things.

If you don't know how to even pseduo code your in for a hard time.

Show off to be honest....

...How would someone who has never programmed before be able to decipher what you said above?

Syth

If you go to a college you'll probably be learning Java, however I'm quite fond of Python. I think it's a great language to learn (but also good for serious stuff).

py2006

Syth wrote:

If you go to a college you'll probably be learning Java, however I'm quite fond of Python. I think it's a great language to learn (but also good for serious stuff).

Yea, the reason I am looking into Java at the moment is because I am considering starting a degree in Sept and as you say they all use Java.

Is Java what employers are after these days?

Tobias Greeshman

py2006 wrote:

Is Java what employers are after these days?

Yep! its fairly popular at the moment. Java developers seem to be earning a bit more than anyone else at the moment. Well worth having under your belt really if you're prepared to give it a go, its a fairly straightforward language to learn.

seamus

py2006 wrote:

Yea, the reason I am looking into Java at the moment is because I am considering starting a degree in Sept and as you say they all use Java.

Is Java what employers are after these days?

Java is what employers of Java programmers are looking for

If you're going for a degree, do the first year, and then in the second year, branch out into other languages in your spare time. If you want a programming job, then it helps to know a good few languages.

py2006

I went to the java site to download java but it gave me a mountain of options of differernt things to download. What exactly do I need to download?

I bought a cheap ass book for €12 which kinda gives a basic introduction. I will obviously get a better one if I can handle this programming malarky!

cyberwit

Development Environment / Text Editor so you can write programs :
TextPad
http://www.textpad.com

Java Development Kit so you can compile programs:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/download.jsp

I have just started doing java this year and its enjoyable the above will help you get started programming

The following is a good Introduction to Java site:

http://chortle.ccsu.edu/CS151/cs151java.html

Hope it's of some use

Hobbes

Ag marbh wrote:

Show off to be honest....

...How would someone who has never programmed before be able to decipher what you said above?

He can learn.

Seriously the examples were for the benefit of people who code in Java or did you honestly think I wrote that thinking he would understand? :rolleyes:

Hardly showing off, I have seen piss poor coding from people who learnt Java without learning how to actually code correctly.

There is more to programming then just learning syntax.

Hobbes

py2006 wrote:

I went to the java site to download java but it gave me a mountain of options of differernt things to download. What exactly do I need to download?

You need to download either Java1.4 or 1.5 JDK. Personally I'd recommend 1.5 and start learning the new stuff.

JRE is just for running programs and you won't be able to compile any code in it.

cyberwit

Correction if i said JRE

py2006

cyberwit wrote:

Development Environment / Text Editor so you can write programs :
TextPad
http://www.textpad.com

Java Development Kit so you can compile programs:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/download.jsp

I have just started doing java this year and its enjoyable the above will help you get started programming

The following is a good Introduction to Java site:

http://chortle.ccsu.edu/CS151/cs151java.html

Hope it's of some use

Cheers, thanks for that! Although, still confused as to what actually do download on that page!

Smellyirishman

Click link.
Click red button in upper right "Java - j2ee download the sdk"
Scroll down new window that pops up and get all-in-one bundle.
Click accept agreement radio button (Obviously after reading agreement )
Download appropriate Operating System version (windows is at bottom).

You could download the netbeans version, but the one I walked you through should be plenty for now and you can get netbeans when you want and know more about what is going on.

Lastly, good luck and have fun.

py2006

Smellyirishman wrote:

Click link.
Click red button in upper right "Java - j2ee download the sdk"
Scroll down new window that pops up and get all-in-one bundle.
Click accept agreement radio button (Obviously after reading agreement )
Download appropriate Operating System version (windows is at bottom).

You could download the netbeans version, but the one I walked you through should be plenty for now and you can get netbeans when you want and know more about what is going on.

Lastly, good luck and have fun.

Cheers buddy! Its downloading now!

And what in the blue hell is netbeans?? Is that something IT students put on their netToast??

canker

If you're going to learn Java in a degree program theres little point in learning it beforehand. If you're going into first year of the program they will teach it to you assuming that you have never heard of it before.

All you are likely to gain from pre-learning it is a lot of bad habbits and will probably result in you being bored for the first few weeks of your course.

Something I found starting java in college already knowing a bit was I was ignoring instructions on how to solve problems using simple code because I thought "I know a better way to do this using stuff we havent covered yet". I have since discovered that was a bad idea!

cognos

C++ and Java are the two languages that I have learnt the most, and most recently. I found Java much easier to learn but that probably has a lot to do with the fact that I did C++ first which is syntactically almost identical to Java. I leart them both in college and the styles of the courses/lecturers were very different which also makes a big difference. In any case if you start from the beginning and write as many programs as possible you certainly won't find Java hard to learn.

kyote00

The best development environment around is Eclipse. It also has excellent tutorial and will have you up and running in minutes. Save yourself a lot of pain by not using textpad or wordpad...

http://www.eclipse.org/

Java is very easy to learn but difficult to use well. There are many ways to achieve the same thing. Its strengths are the multitude of reusable code, the many development tools.

An excellent starter book is by Deitel 'Advanced Java™ 2 Platform How to Program" -- its very detailed and starts at the very start and work progressively through all the main topics.

It is also the case that programming a graphical user interface will require another set of learning --- in this case its mainly trying to understand what all the classes do.

good luck.

bpmurray

We're talking about a complete novice, so let's not confuse him.

1. You need a development environment. My personal preference is Eclipse, but NetBeans and JDeveloper are fine too.
2. You need to decide which version of Java you want to use. I'd recommend the latest (v1.5) which will probably be the level which you'll use when you get to college.
3. Start with the JDK. Avoid J2EE and J2ME initially: these are enterprise and micro (phones) versions, and will only confuse you. The reality is that the enormous sizes of these libraries is almost impossible to get your head around until you're comfortable with the basic JDK.

I'd also recommend that you get one of the Sun Certified Java Developer books. While this focuses on the certification exam, it will also direct you to best practices and make you a better Java programmer. It'll also methodically go through features of the language, to the extent that even seasoned Java pros find that they learn new stuff when they follow these books.

aidan_walsh

Guys, stop telling him to run off and download Eclipse or any other IDE. The man wants to learn the language, and the best way he is going to do that is not by having a program hold his hand along the way. Using a simple text editor and a command line compiler will teach him far more in the first few weeks than any IDE will allow.

EDIT: Fixed brainfarts - unfortunately I didn't see them until they were quoted... Teach me to try to write with more than one train of thought at a time.

Magown3

aidan_walsh wrote:

Guys, stop telling him to run off and download Eclipse or any other IDE. The man wants to learn the language, and the best way he is going to do that is not by having a program hold his hand along the way. Using a simple tect editor and a command line installer will teach him far more in the first few weeks than any IDE will allow.

Very true.... I was about to suggest NetBeans but thought the better of it.


Make sure you install the J2SE 5.0 before you install TextPad. That way your compile and run options will install automatically, but this isn't absolutely necessary. You can still add in the extra compile and run commands through the options.

democrates

class HelloWorldApp {
    public static void main(String[] args) {
        System.out.println("Hello World!"); //Display the string.
    }
}

This typical first program (freshly stolen from the sun) prints "Hello World!" to the command line.
Mad isn't it Ted!

But don't fret, most of it is stuff you'd copy and paste to any little program you write, it just sets up a place for your code in the java object-oriented environment,
System.out.println("Hello World!");
is the line that does your bidding.

You could change the class name from HelloWorldApp to py2006RulesOk or whatever, change Hello World! to Baste my steaming pudding, and delete or change "//Display the string." which is a comment to remind you what your code does when you come back to it in 3 months.
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/getStarted/application/index.html describes the program above in a basic way.

You can start learning more java syntax and write lots of pleasing programs just by adding to the above code using the sun java tutorials and your new book.

Eventually to unleash the real power of java you'll need to get to grips with how to design object oriented applications. This can be a headwrecker but when it comes together you'll find you are able to avoid re-inventing the wheel by re-using code.

Java doesn't just let you run a program you write, it comes with libraries of code you can call from within your program that do powerful things, Alladins code cave! The beauty is you don't have to know how they work, just how to use them, a bit like you can drive a car without knowing how the engine works.

Good luck and enjoy!

clearz

If you are gonna be doing java in September probably for 4 years my advice to you would be to start learning C++ now. Just some basic console apps will be fine but learn to do them using object oriented methods. Then when you start doing java you will be tought all the stuff again but in a different but similar language so it will be alot easier and you'll also know some c++ if you ever go back to using it later on.

Hobbes

aidan_walsh wrote:

Guys, stop telling him to run off and download Eclipse or any other IDE. The man wants to learn the language, and the best way he is going to do that is not by having a program hold his hand along the way. Using a simple text editor and a command line compiler will teach him far more in the first few weeks than any IDE will allow.

Thats a very good point. Eclipse is the win, but notepad is best starting off. Once you start using eclipse you will find it will start cleaning up your code for you (if you let it), it is better you get into those habits before an IDE takes over or your left with bad habits.

As for the HelloWorld program. The most common gotcha is having this not being able to run from the command line. So don't fret if you can't get it running first time, nearly everyone fails that first time. Its better you learn why yourself.

py2006

Thanks alot for the info guys! The whole thing sounds like double-dutch at the mo!

However, I did do a very brief intro to Visual Basic on a FAS course bout 7-8 years ago. Which I guess is a bit different but it seems along the same lines!

kyote00

>> "Guys, stop telling him to run off and download Eclipse or any other IDE. The man wants to learn the language, and the best way he is going to do that is not by having a program hold his hand along the way. Using a simple text editor and a command line compiler will teach him far more in the first few weeks than any IDE will allow."

This is just rubbish, when you are starting out you need all the help you can get. Perhaps you should have him using vi, or put his feet in cold water so he a little more uncomfortable.

Using textpad or the like will not make you a better programmer. You will spend more of your time trying to make the code look nice (indents,tabs etc) and less time understanding the main constructs. How long would it take to explain CLASSPATH for a newbie

Eclipse takes away the mundane formatting/typing of a program and setting up of the environment and lets you focus on the program you are trying to write, or the language you are trying to learn.
Note if you ever want to learn a new language (say C++) then you can also use Eclipse so the effort is reusable .

textpad
eclipse

jester77

It's probably a little daunting starting out.

A good place to start is Sun's (creator's of Java) Java Tutorial.
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/index.html

Use notepad at the start for writing your Java code, otherwise an IDE (Integrated Development Environment) will be doing alot of the work in the background for you and you won't understand what is happening. Once you understand how everything is working then use an IDE. NetBeans and Eclipse are probably the 2 most popular free IDE's at the moment. The last 2 companies I've worked for use Eclipse, that would be my favourite but try them all out.

Download the J2SE 5.0 and install it. That's all you need to get going. The tutorial will explain all of this for you with links to what you need and will help you on your way.

There is plenty of good info and sites on the web, no need to pay for a course or purchase books. Once you get through the tutorial have a read of Thinking in Java, 3rd Edition by Bruce Eckel. You can download it here:
http://www.mindview.net/Books/TIJ/

Here are a few good Java resources but I would stick with the tutorial to begin with:
http://wdvl.com/Authoring/Java/
http://www.javalobby.org/
http://www.javaranch.com/
http://javaboutique.internet.com/
http://www.javaworld.com/
http://java.oreilly.com/

seamus

kyote00 wrote:

Note if you ever want to learn a new language (say C++) then you can also use Eclipse so the effort is reusable.

When I was in first year in college, our lecturer informed us that JBuilder (what we'd been using in college) was free on the cover a PC mag that month. So we all promptly went out and got it and used nothing but JBuilder for Java. It was great, you just write the code, hit "Run" and everything works. Two years later, we were all struggling to submit projects because we hadn't a clue how to use the command-line compiler.

Now, we were sufficiently savvy to figure it out (though a couple of people never managed to), but I do think it makes more sense to start at the bottom. A "Run" button on a program isn't helping you learn, unless you already know what the run button is doing for you.

Incidentally, the year that came behind us were forced to use textpad to write their Java.

stevenmu

We used plain notepad and the command prompt. When I started doing GUI stuff, I did it all manually through notepad before I ever went near and IDE. This gave me a great insight into what an IDE is actually doing behind the scenes, and I can't count the number of times that's been very usefull to me.

py2006

seamus wrote:

When I was in first year in college, our lecturer informed us that JBuilder (what we'd been using in college) was free on the cover a PC mag that month. So we all promptly went out and got it and used nothing but JBuilder for Java. It was great, you just write the code, hit "Run" and everything works. Two years later, we were all struggling to submit projects because we hadn't a clue how to use the command-line compiler.

Now, we were sufficiently savvy to figure it out (though a couple of people never managed to), but I do think it makes more sense to start at the bottom. A "Run" button on a program isn't helping you learn, unless you already know what the run button is doing for you.

Incidentally, the year that came behind us were forced to use textpad to write their Java.

Jaysus, thats mad! Where did you go to college?

py2006

jester77 wrote:

It's probably a little daunting starting out.

A good place to start is Sun's (creator's of Java) Java Tutorial.
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/index.html

Use notepad at the start for writing your Java code, otherwise an IDE (Integrated Development Environment) will be doing alot of the work in the background for you and you won't understand what is happening. Once you understand how everything is working then use an IDE. NetBeans and Eclipse are probably the 2 most popular free IDE's at the moment. The last 2 companies I've worked for use Eclipse, that would be my favourite but try them all out.

Download the J2SE 5.0 and install it. That's all you need to get going. The tutorial will explain all of this for you with links to what you need and will help you on your way.

There is plenty of good info and sites on the web, no need to pay for a course or purchase books. Once you get through the tutorial have a read of Thinking in Java, 3rd Edition by Bruce Eckel. You can download it here:
http://www.mindview.net/Books/TIJ/

Here are a few good Java resources but I would stick with the tutorial to begin with:
http://wdvl.com/Authoring/Java/
http://www.javalobby.org/
http://www.javaranch.com/
http://javaboutique.internet.com/
http://www.javaworld.com/
http://java.oreilly.com/

Wow, thanks for all that! I will have no excuses now!

kyote00

forced to use 'textpad' :eek:

OK. I was just worried that we were creating hurdles for the OP (who I'm sure is by now an expert) to overcome --- when what he wants to do is learn java.

Most companies now will already have an IDE in use. They will also have coding guidelines/standards to ensure that the basic layout and syntax is similiar. They will not be using a command line compiler, this will be wrapped in a build environment, probably linked with the config mgt/source code control system. Most people I know use Ant as the builder for Java for personal projects. You still need to know the command line options (i.e what things are and how they work) (just as you need to know classpath,jar files etc with Eclipse) but it makes the management/changing of these items much easier.

PS what does the 'Run' button do in eclipse ?

BTW: How do all you textpad users debug your Java programs ?

seamus

py2006 wrote:

Jaysus, thats mad! Where did you go to college?

UCD. It wasn't actually textpad, but it was a similar text-only application.

stevenmu

kyote00 wrote:

BTW: How do all you textpad users debug your Java programs ?

I used the good old fashioned system.out.println(); debugger , handled everything I ever needed. While I have been very impressed with the Visual Studio debugger, it's still handy to have experience of debugging code the long way, I generally know exactly where any problems I have are before I start to debug.

py2006

FAS do online courses in:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]C++ Programming[/FONT] **
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]C Programming[/FONT] **
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Defining Microsoft.NET Solution Architectures[/FONT] **
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Dynamic Server Pages & Fundamentals CGI using Perl (CIW)[/FONT] **
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Java 2 Programming[/FONT] **
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Java 2 Enterprise Connectivity[/FONT] **
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JavaScript Fundamentals[/FONT] **
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Object Oriented Analysis & Design with UML[/FONT] **
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Perl Fundamentals[/FONT] **
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Visual C++ 6.0 - Designing and Implementing Applications[/FONT] **
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Visual Basic 6 Desktop Applications[/FONT] **
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Visual Basic 6 Distributed Applications[/FONT] **
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Visual Studio.NET Overview[/FONT] **
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Visual Basic.NET Windows Programming[/FONT] **
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Visual Basic.NET Web Programming[/FONT] **
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Visual Basic.NET Distributed Applications[/FONT] **

Anybody got any experience of these! They are really cheap to do but you have to pay for the exam itself seperate!

kyote00

"I used the good old fashioned system.out.println(); debugger , "


The defense rests....:p

aidan_walsh

kyote00 wrote:

The defense rests....:p

kyote00 wrote:

Using textpad or the like will not make you a better programmer.

Yes, it will.

kyote00 wrote:

You will spend more of your time trying to make the code look nice (indents,tabs etc) and less time understanding the main constructs.

Only if you allow yourself to get bogged down in that.

kyote00 wrote:

Eclipse takes away the mundane formatting/typing of a program and setting up of the environment and lets you focus on the program you are trying to write, or the language you are trying to learn.

Eclipse introduces another environment for him to have to learn, one that is only one of many possible ones. Its better for him to come to terms with the language first, and then when he is comfortable with that, start learning an environment to apply it in in a manner that allows him to be productive.

Having to learn Eclipse, or Netbeans, or JBuilder along with Java will only bog him down in the specifics of the environment more than the specifics of Java.

Nobody is telling him to use a simple editor for the rest of his life, ffs, just for the first few weeks while he is starting out. Do you honstly think he will learn the symantecs of a language better with something cleaning up around him as he goes?

kyote00 wrote:

Most companies now will already have an IDE in use. They will also have coding guidelines/standards to ensure that the basic layout and syntax is similiar. They will not be using a command line compiler, this will be wrapped in a build environment, probably linked with the config mgt/source code control system. Most people I know use Ant as the builder for Java for personal projects.

Most companies also like people with a few years experience under their belts.

kyote00 wrote:

You still need to know the command line options (i.e what things are and how they work) (just as you need to know classpath,jar files etc with Eclipse) but it makes the management/changing of these items much easier.

And exclusively using the command line compiler is the best way to learn what these are, how they are best used, what situations to use them in, etc. He can go on and figure out the rest afterwards.

Right now, he wants to learn Java, and nothing more. Not how to wrestle with Eclipse, not how to write an Ant script. Learn the language, not one of many environments.

Your witness.

kyote00

I know I shouldnt but there so much bad advice given, I cant help myself......

1) textpad issue.
Explain to me how textpad will use make him a better programmers ?

2) Eclipse introduces another environment........
We are trying to have him focus on learning the language. Eclipse removes one of the biggest headaches newbies have such as setting the classpath,
helping with solutions to common compiler errors, and helping understand how the program executes using the debugger. Imagine been able to run your program line by line, check whats variables are set and are not...
Colour coded editor so that you can see whats a reserved word, whats a variable. Tabbed windows so that you dont have the 'window blitz' problem if browsing several files.

3) And exclusively using the command line compiler is the best way to learn what these are
The command line is likely to be: $ javac foo.java ---- awesome learning there.

4) Learn the language, not one of many environments.
You appear to have missed the point of Eclipse. It hides the environment and focuses on the application under development -- that one of the main tenets of the eclipse project. You can also move projects to Mac or Linux

py2006

kyote00 wrote:

I know I shouldnt but there so much bad advice given, I cant help myself......

1) textpad issue.
Explain to me how textpad will use make him a better programmers ?

2) Eclipse introduces another environment........
We are trying to have him focus on learning the language. Eclipse removes one of the biggest headaches newbies have:

What exactly is eclipse?

kyote00

Its an integrated development environment that will enable you to work on learning Java and not have to struggle with command line options for the compiler, classpath settings. (IMHO)

Eclipse sorts your work into projects, each project has an editor that will allow you to see your code in a language aware window (colour coded and hints).

You can step through the execution of your program line by line, stop it at a given point and see what it happening.

You will need to invest some time upfront to learn about the project structure it uses --- this normally take not longer than a 1/2 day and will set you for a much more productive attempt to learn Java