M7 Nenagh to Limerick Motorway

mysterious

Local media states the road is to start in the coming weeks
the road is marked out and all fenced.

Also the Limerick Tunnell is to start in spring. So this means by 2009 we will have a continous dual carrigway from Crusheen to the east of Nenagh. impressive, hopefully the Nenagh - limerick is deemed to be (M)7 afterall its a simular standard to the fermoy M8 as it has a viaduct and simular traffic levels.

1huge1

lol funny how they said when the M7 was built it said it was the limerick dublin road but yet it was only the dublin side who actually got it and we got the N7 (thankfully its a much better road now)
anyway will they be doing a ringroad around the whole city mysterious or will it mostly stay stay with the southside?
will there be a toll on the limerick tunnel?

murphaph

1huge1 wrote:

anyway will they be doing a ringroad around the whole city mysterious or will it mostly stay stay with the southside?

No ringroad planned.

1huge1 wrote:

will there be a toll on the limerick tunnel?

Yes.

Chris_533976

You know Im still surprised they didnt toll the Lee Tunnel in Cork when they had the chance.

Thank you Debenhams for putting a colossal store in the only place they could build a toll plaza

murphaph

Chris_533976 wrote:

Thank you Debenhams for putting a colossal store in the only place they could build a toll plaza

Electronic tolling doesn't need a plaza.

impr0v

mysterious wrote:

Local media states the road is to start in the coming weeks
the road is marked out and all fenced.

..hopefully the Nenagh - limerick is deemed to be (M)7 afterall its a simular standard to the fermoy M8...

nope, high quality dual carriageway, therefore N7 and a 100kph limit.

Chris_533976

murphaph wrote:

Electronic tolling doesn't need a plaza.

Dont forget this is Ireland. Total electronic tolling will never happen on a main road

Maskhadov

impr0v wrote:

nope, high quality dual carriageway, therefore N7 and a 100kph limit.

Can they not bring that up to 120kmph since its high quality dual carriage way?

mysterious

Maskhadov wrote:

Can they not bring that up to 120kmph since its high quality dual carriage way?

Since they made minor changes to the EIM and CPO they could'nt change the desing of the road much only change the status of the road form (M) to N7 :rolleyes:

On the CPO the design speed is 120k/m/h and the Nenagh bypass is 100 k/m/h. Fact.


The road was ment to be a motorway when the plans first came out, road signs were marked in blue
The road plan heading on all the advertisements and displays in local community centres stated it as High dual carrigway/motorway Nenagh to Limerick. The plan says its Motorway standard.
It was not funded by the NDP and was not part of the new inter urban highwap plan as it did'nt exist when this road was first mooted. So what happened and why did they spend more money downgrading it ?? maybe Its just that Limerick is not a priorthy compared to other cities of Ireland.

impr0v

Maskhadov wrote:

Can they not bring that up to 120kmph since its high quality dual carriage way?

I don't think so. The alignment is so close to motorway standard as to be almost indistinguishable, but the land was acquired under a compulsory purchase order, rather than a motorway order and therefore does not have the proper legal status. As far as I know, the local authority would have to reaquire the land from themselves as part of a Motorway Order in order to fulfil the legal obligations for the creation of such a road, though I am open to correction on this.

As part of the description of the scheme in the environmental impact statement it states that the intention is to provide...'a High Quality Dual Carriageway (to motorway standard) connecting the Limerick Southern Ring Road (LSRR) Phase I and the Nenagh Bypass (a length of approximately 27.8km)', but I can't locate anywhere which gives a reasoning for not actually providing a motorway. The usual rationale for this would be that the predicted traffic figures did not justify it, but it doesn't seem to state as much here.

murphaph

It's idiotic as usual. They will have a motorway spec road (at least as far as Nenagh) yet because it will be an all-purpose road I can walk my dog, take a ride on my horse or cycle my bike along it! Nevermind slow moving agri vehicles! It takes a theoretically very safe road and turns it into a theoretically quite unsafe road. Very disappointing.

Lennoxschips

they need an in-between spec

in holland you have roads, auto-roads, and motorways

the auto-roads are intercity roads that aren't full motorway spec (sometimes only one lane in each direction), but they are closed to pedestrians and only open to vehicles capable of a certain speed (60 km/hr I think)

murphaph

Lennoxschips wrote:

they need an in-between spec

in holland you have roads, auto-roads, and motorways

the auto-roads are intercity roads that aren't full motorway spec (sometimes only one lane in each direction), but they are closed to pedestrians and only open to vehicles capable of a certain speed (60 km/hr I think)

No, not in this case. This road is ull m-way spec so should just be classed as m-way with full m-way restrictions applied. The 'in-between spec' is a good idea but will have limited use here as any roadslike that will probably replace existing rights of way, thereby will have to be all purpose roads with no restrictions.

Maskhadov

If its high quality dual carriage way with all the proper fly overs and no crappy juntions then it shouldnt be too hard to upgrade to motorway in the future.

impr0v

It's motorway spec, except for the Nenagh Dual Carraigeway section which will have slightly narrower cross sectional elements, so in that sense there is no engineering impediment to upgrading, the question is the legal aspect I've mentioned above.

Maskhadov

Thats excellent !!

mackerski

Councils are free to post 120 limits on non-motorway roads. None have yet done so. Don't hold your breath.

Dermot

mysterious

If its meets the criteria for a motorway and was meant to be a motorway, why not class this road the M7???

traffic on the existing road is already over 14,000 vehicles a day clearly justifies a motorway??


The M3 north of Navan has traffic levels lower than the N7 ??

sweeper4

mackerski wrote:

Councils are free to post 120 limits on non-motorway roads. None have yet done so. Don't hold your breath.

Dermot

Cork County Council have posted in local newspapers that they will designate a 120 km/h speed limit on the existing stretch of 100 km/h dual carriageway between Watergrasshill and the beginning of the Glanmire dual carriageway. The change was approved in November I believe following a council vote.
Hopefully others will follow their lead in suitable locations.

murphaph

sweeper4 wrote:

Cork County Council have posted in local newspapers that they will designate a 120 km/h speed limit on the existing stretch of 100 km/h dual carriageway between Watergrasshill and the beginning of the Glanmire dual carriageway. The change was approved in November I believe following a council vote.
Hopefully others will follow their lead in suitable locations.

Excellent news. Cork Co Co yet again showing a lead for other councils to follow.

murphaph

mysterious wrote:

traffic on the existing road is already over 14,000 vehicles a day clearly justifies a motorway??

No, not really, at least it wouldn't automatically justify a m-way upgrade in the UK at an rate. Plenty of S2 roads over there carrying in excess of 14k vehicles a day. Leixlip had over 20k cars passing through the town before the M4 was built. I'm in favour of a motorway to Limerick but it's more future proofing than because the traffic numbers justfy it today. In reality a few 2+1 bypasses and online upgrades of the existing S2 road would work wonders!

spacetweek

impr0v wrote:

The alignment is so close to motorway standard as to be almost indistinguishable, but the land was acquired under a compulsory purchase order, rather than a motorway order and therefore does not have the proper legal status. As far as I know, the local authority would have to reaquire the land from themselves as part of a Motorway Order in order to fulfil the legal obligations for the creation of such a road, though I am open to correction on this.

Seems like an anomaly.

So all you need to do to convert an existing road to a motorway (assuming it's already up to spec) is to get your Motorway order together? I can think of a few places where they should do that, N8 Watergrasshill, N3 Blanch-Clonee (with very minor changes). To not do so just kinda seems like a waste of infrastructure.

mysterious

The Nenagh Limerick route and the Southern Ring road Phase 2 is confirmed by the NRA it is to start very soon and will be finished by 2009. Which will leave the Toomevara section to Portlaoise to be the last leg of the N7 route.

1huge1

mysterious wrote:

The Nenagh Limerick route and the Southern Ring road Phase 2 is confirmed by the NRA it is to start very soon and will be finished by 2009. Which will leave the Toomevara section to Portlaoise to be the last leg of the N7 route.

i know im getting a bit ahead of myself here but are there plans for them to make it M7 the whole way to Dublin

icdg

spacetweek wrote:

Seems like an anomaly.

So all you need to do to convert an existing road to a motorway (assuming it's already up to spec) is to get your Motorway order together? I can think of a few places where they should do that, N8 Watergrasshill, N3 Blanch-Clonee (with very minor changes). To not do so just kinda seems like a waste of infrastructure.

Alas for Blanchards-Clonee, I drove along that stretch last night and there is at least one, probably more buildings with exits directly onto the road - that stops it being m/way. This is a problem with designating things all-purpose. If its built as motorway, you can't build anything that exits directly onto it. If its AP dual carrigeway, then there's a chance that if you propose to build something, and have money to appeal it as far as you want someone will eventually say yes. Then it can never be upgraded to motorway without someone providing an alternative access.

The NRA acknowledges as such in their proposal for service stations last week, on HQ dual carrigeways, you can simply use the planning process. For a motorway, you need a motorway order for the slip roads on and off the motorway before you can build a service station.

I don't think you need to go to re-acquiring land though. The N7 Curragh bypass is one example of a road upgraded from all-purpose to motorway when the Kildare bypass was built (formerly the mway restrictions only began at J10 eastbound), I think getting a motorway order is probably enough.

impr0v

As stated by icdg, the access aspect is crucial. A motorway order, as opposed to a compulsory purchase order contains a number of additional schedules, in particular schedule 4, in which it methodically lists, and outlines on mapping, all the adjacent land plots to the land on which it is proposed to provide a motorway, and prohibits access between the two.

corktina

i assume if you want to upgrade an existing road to motorway standard, then you would have to compensate all the adjoining property owners for loss of potential and real access. There wouldnt need to be actual access as for example a farmer would lose the ability to climb over his fence and cross the road to his other field (probably both fields would originally have been one field) .

Spengman

murphaph wrote:

No, not really, at least it wouldn't automatically justify a m-way upgrade in the UK at an rate. Plenty of S2 roads over there carrying in excess of 14k vehicles a day. Leixlip had over 20k cars passing through the town before the M4 was built. I'm in favour of a motorway to Limerick but it's more future proofing than because the traffic numbers justfy it today. In reality a few 2+1 bypasses and online upgrades of the existing S2 road would work wonders!

A high quality dc has a design capacity of up to 55,000 cars per day, after this a motorway would be required, this is according to the NRA''s own guidelines.If this was the case the only roads in Ireland that would meet this requirement are the M50, the naas road and the lucan road, plenty of new motorway sections such as the kildare, monasterevin bypasses and the kinnegad/kilcock scheme only have traffic volumes averaging around 20 - 25,000 cars a day yet they still get motorway status. The limerick ring when fully completed is expected to have an average of 40- 45,000 cars using it every day yet it wont be given motorway status, Pure double standards!:mad: . In fairness motorways in Ireland were never going to be built because of the high levels of traffic, its more to do with strategic and economic reasons.

The Limerick to Nenagh scheme was originally planned as a ppp project and was to be tolled,it was consistently referred to by the nra, limerick and north tipp county councils and the ndp as the " Limerick to Nenagh motorway/high quality dual carriageway", i.e. motorway from the limerick south ring to the nenagh bypass with the bypass itself being upgraded to high quality dc. Local residents in the birdhill area mounted a vigorous campaign firstly against the tolls and also because of the presence of(not a snail this time but) a rare butterfly,it got pretty silly at times, every week or so letters would appear in the local papers criticising the need for a new road, i remember 1 writer even reffered to the "current magnificent N7 being entirely adequate", it smacked of desperation at times.Local farmers then were angered by the amount of compensation they were to be paid and they were also unhappy at what they perceived was the excessive amount of land the road required. Things changed in mid 2004 when the scheme was dropped from the ppp list, without any publicity, it was also around this time that the motorway status was dropped, whether the two events are linked im not sure, it may also be result of the farmers protests, if this is true its a cowardly move by the NRA as it sets a precedent and undermines the development of the new intercity routes!

The whole roads programme has become a bit of a sham, take the N/M7 for example, they've finally began to sort out the naas road yet when its completed it wont be designated as a motorway,we're going to be left with a bit part motorway network!. There is already motorway from naas to the end of the portlaoise bypass and in a couple of years this will be extended to borris in ossory with high quality dual with a lower speed limit from there to the end of the route, despite the fact that the completed limerick ring road and the limerick to nenagh project will be motorway standard dual carriageways and a higher standard of road than older sections such as the naas bypass which was completed in 1983/1984, ludicrous!

murphaph

Spengman wrote:

The whole roads programme has become a bit of a sham, take the N/M7 for example, they've finally began to sort out the naas road yet when its completed it wont be designated as a motorway,we're going to be left with a bit part motorway network!. There is already motorway from naas to the end of the portlaoise bypass and in a couple of years this will be extended to borris in ossory with high quality dual with a lower speed limit from there to the end of the route, despite the fact that the completed limerick ring road and the limerick to nenagh project will be motorway standard dual carriageways and a higher standard of road than older sections such as the naas bypass which was completed in 1983/1984, ludicrous!

Arrrgghh, I hear what you're saying but the mere fact that the road is not a motorway does not mean it has to have a speed limit of less than 120km/h, similarly, many stretches of motorway (M1, M50 at least) have 100km/h stretches mandated for them. The local authorities in Tipp/Limerick/Clare can designate all these motorway standard roads as 120km/h ones if they wish. Somebody here posted that Cork has decided to increase the speed limit on their recently completed bit of N8 (m-way spec) from Glanmire to Watergrasshill, where it will tie in with the Fermoy bypass motorway to 120km/h. The designation of a road as all purpose does not mean it is doomed to have a lower speed limit forever. Blame your local county councils if they post a 100km/h limit on the road and it goes unchanged.

Spengman

murphaph wrote:

Arrrgghh, I hear what you're saying but the mere fact that the road is not a motorway does not mean it has to have a speed limit of less than 120km/h, similarly, many stretches of motorway (M1, M50 at least) have 100km/h stretches mandated for them. The local authorities in Tipp/Limerick/Clare can designate all these motorway standard roads as 120km/h ones if they wish. Somebody here posted that Cork has decided to increase the speed limit on their recently completed bit of N8 (m-way spec) from Glanmire to Watergrasshill, where it will tie in with the Fermoy bypass motorway to 120km/h. The designation of a road as all purpose does not mean it is doomed to have a lower speed limit forever. Blame your local county councils if they post a 100km/h limit on the road and it goes unchanged.

I can live with the reduced speed limit, what annoys me is the NRA's idiotic policy of almost spontaneous motorway.At this rate the country isnt going to have a coherent road network, the mixture of motorway and all-purpose roads on the main inter-urban routes makes absolutely no sense,why cant we have a full motorway route from the M50 to Limerick and Cork?, likewise from the M50 to Galway. The current policy is a joke, there will be no motorway access to Cork ,Limerick or Galway and indeed Waterford aswell.Taking the N8 route as an example: what is proposed is a motorway from the M7 interchange to cullahill, then the entire cullahill to cashel route is going to be a so called high quality dc except for ,(WAIT FOR IT) a short 8km or so section around urlingford ,then its dc all the way to the fermoy motorway bypass and back to dual for the watergrasshill bypass and on into Cork, this country can be so infuriating at times.Also the way that the NRA makes all these concessions to farmers is nothing short of a disgrace.

corktina

i dunno what the problem, i for one am delighted with the improvements that either are in place or are just around the corner.....