Alfa's any good?

ds20prefecture

colm_mcm wrote:

............and you would accept that reliability on 156's is below average?

I would not. What do you base your assertion on? Hearsay? You work in the service side of the motor trade, right? Surely you of all people understand the difference between rumour and fact. E.g. "BMWs never break down" - of course they do. The number of new shape 5-series I've seen on the back of AA trucks beggars belief (I'd estimate 10 since the car was launched). This does not mean that BMWs are unreliable.

I put 45000 faultless miles on my 2.0 156. My brother drove his 1.8 to 100000 miles, also without major fault. He wept when he was forced to sell it for a Scenic. The other 5 156s in my company at the time exhibited no faults whatsoever. These were 1.6 to 2.5 cars, from 99 to 2003. By contrast, we ran two Mercedes C classes also, and they were both back to the dealer within 3 months for alarm, electrical and trim issues.

I read a lot about 156's reliability on these forums, primarily from people who have not run a 156. 80% of those who have owned an Alfa would buy one again. That's enough for me. I would buy a 156 again. The only other car that I have owned that I would buy again is my DS. My wife has a Skoda Octavia - it's a great car, very hard to criticise, and as faultless as my Alfa was. I'd rather burn myself to death than do another 5 years in an Octavia. Alas, I'll need to dig out my lighter, as the car is my wife's.

Most cars are appliances these days. The 156 was a breath of fresh air in a sea of teutonic mediocrity. Can you picture yourself weeping as you sell your focus/Octavia/Golf/3-series?

I will concede that the Alfa dealer network contribute vigourously to the brand's reputation for poor reliability. They are certainly below average. By contrast, there are Alfa specialists who are both cheaper and better than the main dealers - use them regularly and you won't regret it.

Mods: How often can we have the same thread without there being a sticky?

maidhc

ds20prefecture wrote:

Mods: How often can we have the same thread without there being a sticky?

I think one is required alright.

I wonder sometimes though if Ford had brought out the 156 and Alfa the Focus would people still rave about the car with the Alfa badge.

ds20prefecture

maidhc wrote:

I think one is required alright.

I wonder sometimes though if Ford had brought out the 156 and Alfa the Focus would people still rave about the car with the Alfa badge.

Good point - there's a lot of baggage (good and bad) with that badge.

I can guarantee they would also rave about the Ford 156. The 156 was exceptional.

colm_mcm

ds20prefecture wrote:

I would not. What do you base your assertion on? Hearsay? You work in the service side of the motor trade, right? Surely you of all people understand the difference between rumour and fact. E.g. "BMWs never break down" - of course they do. The number of new shape 5-series I've seen on the back of AA trucks beggars belief (I'd estimate 10 since the car was launched). This does not mean that BMWs are unreliable.

I put 45000 faultless miles on my 2.0 156. My brother drove his 1.8 to 100000 miles, also without major fault. He wept when he was forced to sell it for a Scenic. The other 5 156s in my company at the time exhibited no faults whatsoever. These were 1.6 to 2.5 cars, from 99 to 2003. By contrast, we ran two Mercedes C classes also, and they were both back to the dealer within 3 months for alarm, electrical and trim issues.

I read a lot about 156's reliability on these forums, primarily from people who have not run a 156. 80% of those who have owned an Alfa would buy one again. That's enough for me. I would buy a 156 again. The only other car that I have owned that I would buy again is my DS. My wife has a Skoda Octavia - it's a great car, very hard to criticise, and as faultless as my Alfa was. I'd rather burn myself to death than do another 5 years in an Octavia. Alas, I'll need to dig out my lighter, as the car is my wife's.

Most cars are appliances these days. The 156 was a breath of fresh air in a sea of teutonic mediocrity. Can you picture yourself weeping as you sell your focus/Octavia/Golf/3-series?

I will concede that the Alfa dealer network contribute vigourously to the brand's reputation for poor reliability. They are certainly below average. By contrast, there are Alfa specialists who are both cheaper and better than the main dealers - use them regularly and you won't regret it.

Mods: How often can we have the same thread without there being a sticky?

i wouldn't buy into the BMW's never break down thing. i know they do, and when the do it'll be expensive. I have owned Italian cars in the past, and have found that their character and relatively low price make up for any problems the car might have. While i don't think Alfas are reliable (i know first hand that most aren't) I will agree that some owners don't have problems, but i think in 2006 that people shouldn't have to put up with the sorts of problems european cars give you.

ds20prefecture

colm_mcm wrote:

but i think in 2006 that people shouldn't have to put up with the sorts of problems european cars give you.

That's a bit of a generalisation. If you heed half of what you hear, German cars never ever ever break down. Swedish cars rarely. French, Italian and British cars every single day. You'd be licky to get to the bottom of your driveway with one of those. The Skoda Octavia has been nominated by the Pope for a sainthood, for it's crushing competence in the face of demand for innovation.

Nissan, Toyota and Mitsubishi are 95% porridge. Grey sludge that will satisfy you till lunchtime. Mazda are 80% the same. Their 20% is very sweet though. Honda - They're kind of a ready-brek. It's still grey, it still sludge, but it will keep you going till tea time.

A Ford Focus is like a really good kebab. Cheap, tasty, zesty, memorable.

An Alfa 156 is like the early bird in Jabob's Ladder. The best meal of that class served with style and with a suprisingly small bill at the end of the night.

Bluehair

ds20prefecture wrote:

That's a bit of a generalisation. If you heed half of what you hear, German cars never ever ever break down. Swedish cars rarely. French, Italian and British cars every single day. You'd be licky to get to the bottom of your driveway with one of those. The Skoda Octavia has been nominated by the Pope for a sainthood, for it's crushing competence in the face of demand for innovation.

Nissan, Toyota and Mitsubishi are 95% porridge. Grey sludge that will satisfy you till lunchtime. Mazda are 80% the same. Their 20% is very sweet though. Honda - They're kind of a ready-brek. It's still grey, it still sludge, but it will keep you going till tea time.

A Ford Focus is like a really good kebab. Cheap, tasty, zesty, memorable.

An Alfa 156 is like the early bird in Jabob's Ladder. The best meal of that class served with style and with a suprisingly small bill at the end of the night.

For half two in the morning the above is sheer genius, my tea was coming out my nose by the time i got to the Octavia bit!

Bluehair

Reliability issues aside what are they really like to drive? It is still fwd though right?

They're shockingly cheap at the moment, there's a 98 2.0 litre 156 going in Galway here for a shade under 4 grand.

lomb

Bluehair wrote:

Reliability issues aside what are they really like to drive? It is still fwd though right?

They're shockingly cheap at the moment, there's a 98 2.0 litre 156 going in Galway here for a shade under 4 grand.

that cars worth not more than 2200-2500 maximum from ros.ie
DATE: 22 January 2006 TIME: 08:43

STATISTICAL CODE: 40285016
MAKE: ALFA ROMEO
MODEL: 156
VERSION: 2.0 TS 16V 04DR / SALOON / MANUAL / PETROL ONLY /
MILEAGE: 65000 MILES

The information requested in respect of the vehicle shown is indicated below.
DATE OF FIRST REGISTRATION(MM/YY): JANUARY 1998
OPEN MARKET SELLING PRICE:
(applicable on enquiry date) €1839
RATE OF TAX: 30.0%
VEHICLE REGISTRATION TAX:
(payable on enquiry date) €551

at the end of the day i know for a fact if u are offered a company car in work for aib u can have any car to a price except one-- alfa. they have had to many problems with them ,where people dont show up for work. mayb they are on the back of low loaders or mayb they are out tearing around country lanes with a grin claiming the car didnt start. who knows? i suppose unless one owns an alfa one will never know.
one thing i do know is they depreciate like the clappers, when u go to trade against a mainstream german car no one will take the trade in unless they can dispose of it within the trade.

Eoin

lomb wrote:

at the end of the day i know for a fact if u are offered a company car in work for aib u can have any car to a price except one-- alfa. they have had to many problems with them ,where people dont show up for work. mayb they are on the back of low loaders or mayb they are out tearing around country lanes with a grin claiming the car didnt start. who knows? i suppose unless one owns an alfa one will never know.

B.O.I. don't allow Volvos as company cars - maybe the volvo drivers were not coming into work either, on country lanes as well, but doing the crossaire or something.

ds20prefecture

lol

unkel

ds20prefecture wrote:

An Alfa 156 is like the early bird in Jabob's Ladder

Well said

Henry Ford III

I like the 147 3 door.

A 2 litre engine in there makes for a zippy runabout.

prospect

I am curious,
If they are so unreliable how come all Opel, Suzuki, Saab & Volvo are switching to the fiat/alfa diesel engine.
If what you guys say is true, GM have a death wish.....

toffeapple

OK lets settle this with some stats--- Top gear magazine surveyed 72000 car owners in 2003, regarding reliability, satisfaction, etc etc....widely regarded as the largest independent car survey in Britian--given with percentage satisfaction

top ten as follows

1: Jaguar XJ Series - 90.9
2: Toyota Yaris - 90.5
3: Skoda Octavia - 90.4
4: Lexus IS200 - 90.2
5: Honda S2000 - 89.8
6: Mazda MX-5 - 88.9
7: Toyota Celica (new) - 88.4
8: BMW Z3 - 88.3
9: Mazda 323 - 88.1
10: Subaru Legacy - 88.1

Bottom ten as in least happy customers

128: Citroen Saxo - 73.2
129: Ford Galaxy - 73.1
130: Land Rover Freelander - 73.1
131: Alfa Romeo 156 - 72.9
132: Fiat Punto (new) - 72.5
133: Mercedes M-Class - 69.6
134: Renault Laguna (new) - 68.9
135: Peugeot 307 - 68.7
136: Renault Espace - 68.2
137: Volkswagen Sharan - 67.1

oh look theres the alf at number 131 ...7th from bottom.....

prospect

That is a satisfaction survey:

So if person A. is a very easy going run of the mill dude and spends €20K on a new octavia and has to go to the garage 4 or 5 times in 2 years they will most likely be VERY SATISFIED. (I.e. they didn't spend a lot and didn't expect anything spectacular)

If person B is a highly strung, stressed out company director and they spend €65K on an M-Class and have to bring it back to the garage 3 times in 2 years, they will most likely be dissatisfied. (They spent a lot of money, expecting to have completely trouble free motoring for several years)

In this scenario, the M-Class is actually more reliable, but would show poorer results than the Octavia. For this reason, imo that poll is B.S.


Regarding the Alfa, there are two types of buyers:

1. A fashion conscious person who wants a sexy & stylish car. They know Sweet F.A. about motoring and never check oil, and miss service intervals by several thousand miles, because they have a hair appointment or a round of golf to play. (Unfortunately there are more of this type of buyer. It is probably Alfas own fault for producing such a desirable looking car that is relatively cheap!)

2. A person who loves driving. They look after their car, keep it clean and go to the bother of finding out the best engine oil to use, and check the levels every fortnight. They have it serviced at the proper intervals and generally respect the delicacy of piece of fine engineering.

So person 1 is the twit you meet in the garage with a blown engine, and person 2 is the one who will come back again and again and buy more Alfas.

If you want to buy a second hand AR, or any car, buy off person 2.

my 42 cents.

ds20prefecture

toffeapple wrote:

OK lets settle this with some stats

We already did. 80% of boards users that owned Alfas would buy one again.

I guess the reason is that Alfas are a choice of motoring enthusiasts, who accept the need for a greater level of care in exchange for the greater level of driver satisfaction. Which is why I suggested the OP to buy a focus unless his wife is a motoring enthusiast.

ds20prefecture

toffeapple wrote:

137: Volkswagen Sharan - 67.1

I'd love to know where the Ford Galaxy and Seat Alhambra came....

maidhc

I accept people who like cars will probably like Alfas (I think they look lovely, but at this stage in my life I would rather something *guaranteed* to work, I cant afford repairs/high maintenace costs. It also happens I dont top up the fluids in my 11year old mondeo between services, and will be damned if I have to do so with a new car). For me a focus would be a better buy, especially when it is a more capable car (in my opinion, and I dont mean it is more *fun* to drive).

The argument about Merc owners being more discerning than Skoda owners is nonsense since a) It doesnt explain lexus, jaguar etc etc b) It ignores the fact Mercedes have major major issues (a reative took Belgard to court last year over an e-class) c) It presumes Skoda owners just moved on from the horse and cart/Austin Allegro.

prospect

maidhc wrote:

The argument about Merc owners being more discerning than Skoda owners is nonsense since a) It doesnt explain lexus, jaguar etc etc b) It ignores the fact Mercedes have major major issues (a reative took Belgard to court last year over an e-class) c) It presumes Skoda owners just moved on from the horse and cart/Austin Allegro.

The point was that the entire survey is based on individual peoples opinion.
As this very thread illustrates, everybody has differing opinions, desires and expectations.
There is no standard, or control measure in the survey, therefore I personally don't consider it any use.

ds20prefecture

maidhc wrote:

but at this stage in my life I would rather something *guaranteed* to work

Without meaning to be facetious, a new Alfa IS guaranteed to work, for 3 years or 36000 miles. This is as good or better than the guarantees that you get with any car.

RANT: Not directed at anyone in particular (certainly not you, maidhc):

What drives me absolutely nuts is how people who have never owned or even driven an Alfa will drag themselves into a discussion about Alfas to repeat rhetoric that they have heard 3rd or 4th hand. For example, why is nobody jumping into the Golf GTi vs 320i SE thread to say that a Toyota Avensis is more reliable than either of them, and it scores better in Top Gear and JD Power surveys, and so on. I know a guy who had major problems with his Mk IV Golf GTi - but I would not for a second assume that all mk IV golf GTis are badly built cars. However when the word Alfa is mentioned, the world and it's mother comes out of the woodwork to advise everyone away from them.

I think this is caused by the herd mentality of Irish car buyers. Alfa are a low volume car manufacturer, whose products by-and-large reflect a different set of priorities on behalf of the prospective owner. They sell to people who want style over practicality, entertaining handling instead of grip, a great exhaust note instead of economy and a sense of individuality instead of a BMW 3 series. The herd see this, and don't like it. Anything not part of the herd is a threat. Non-conformists are the enemy.

By and large, this goes unnoticed, because low volume manufacturers don't sell in large enough volumes to appear on the consciousness of the great unwashed. However, when they have a "hit" - as with the 156, they suddenly appear everywhere and the herd find themselves disturbed from their cud-chewing at the wheel of their grey Octavia/Avensis/3-series and challenged by this beautiful shape, this raspy exhaust note and (most worryingly) this excellent value. This can't be right! There must be something wrong, and it can't be the herd. Ah, there's a glimmer of hope that these Alfa 156s may not be the most robust car ever made. Whoo Hoo! Now the herd are vindicated - only reckless fools drive those Alfas - pass the word, they are the most unreliable car ever made. Phew! now back to my cud in my safe little bourge-mobile.

/rant
PS: I own a grey Octavia

toffeapple

prospect wrote:

That is a satisfaction survey:

So if person A. is a very easy going run of the mill dude and spends €20K on a new octavia and has to go to the garage 4 or 5 times in 2 years they will most likely be VERY SATISFIED. (I.e. they didn't spend a lot and didn't expect anything spectacular)

If person B is a highly strung, stressed out company director and they spend €65K on an M-Class and have to bring it back to the garage 3 times in 2 years, they will most likely be dissatisfied. (They spent a lot of money, expecting to have completely trouble free motoring for several years)

In this scenario, the M-Class is actually more reliable, but would show poorer results than the Octavia. For this reason, imo that poll is B.S.


Regarding the Alfa, there are two types of buyers:

1. A fashion conscious person who wants a sexy & stylish car. They know Sweet F.A. about motoring and never check oil, and miss service intervals by several thousand miles, because they have a hair appointment or a round of golf to play. (Unfortunately there are more of this type of buyer. It is probably Alfas own fault for producing such a desirable looking car that is relatively cheap!)

2. A person who loves driving. They look after their car, keep it clean and go to the bother of finding out the best engine oil to use, and check the levels every fortnight. They have it serviced at the proper intervals and generally respect the delicacy of piece of fine engineering.

So person 1 is the twit you meet in the garage with a blown engine, and person 2 is the one who will come back again and again and buy more Alfas.

If you want to buy a second hand AR, or any car, buy off person 2.

my 42 cents.

You seem to be able to provide a profile on people who buy alf's yet you hold no weight with their opinion when they are quizzed in a survey???..IM not just brandishing my own opinion on this the Top gear survey is a well respected survey within the british motoring industry....dealerships actually pay attention to the findings....as far as servicing goes this survey asks people who have bought NEW cars and have gone for servicing with their dealer.
I had an alf and i loved it...i always defended it to the bitter end when people told me it was a junker..they are great to won untill something goes wrong..I had a 33 clover leaf ..i know they have improved a lot since then but if new buyers are less happy with it than say a Saxo..what does this tell you
we all know alf's are nice to drive and look nice ...some mentioned that they are cheap!!! they are by no means cheap brand new..they are second hand..why is this?

toffeapple

ds20prefecture wrote:

Without meaning to be facetious, a new Alfa IS guaranteed to work, for 3 years or 36000 miles. This is as good or better than the guarantees that you get with any car.

eh...maybe in 99 when the 156 was out but not now..you should do some reseacrch before brandishing these "facts"...i do agree with your theory on the herd but very good point well made..

ds20prefecture

toffeapple wrote:

eh...maybe in 99 when the 156 was out but not now..you should do some reseacrch before brandishing these "facts".

I did say "new" alfa. But you're right, I should research every statement before making it. The warranty for the 156 is actually 36 months and 100,000km.

Who offers a better warranty?

toffeapple

ds20prefecture wrote:

I did say "new" alfa. But you're right, I should research every statement before making it. The warranty for the 156 is actually 36 months and 100,000km.

Who offers a better warranty?

depends on how you look at it its up after 3 years...not many will do a 100k in 3 years but i suppose a lot reps will so make a good company car purchase..merc and bmw offer 4 years dont they? off the shelf is different prospect than a second hand purchase anyway.

ds20prefecture

toffeapple wrote:

merc and bmw offer 4 years dont they?

AFAIK (but i haven't researched it ;-)) Mercedes and BMW offer a 1 year warranty. BMW have an excellent "free service for 3 years" deal, but it is an optional extra (€1000, I think)

toffeapple

cant find any info on ireland but in states you get 4 years..any way point is its different buying new than buying second hand....maybe we should stop arguing we have kinda high jacked this thread..my fault

prospect

toffeapple wrote:

You seem to be able to provide a profile on people who buy alf's yet you hold no weight with their opinion when they are quizzed in a survey???

It is not that at all, I respect every individuals opinion, but I would not use it as a solid foundation on which to buy a car.
For instance, if you were to ask me what I would think of buying a new 3 series BMW, I would not advise. It is a good car, but ugly. It is also VERY overpriced especially if you want any sort of decent spec. I think there are better options out there.
However, if you were to ask my colleague in the office here, who is driving an '06 320d, he would quite obviously tell you the opposite.

So if we are to judge a car on people's opinion, how does that work in this case? Two completely valid opinions, but they contradict each other?

So, all I am saying is that I don't consider that survey a benchmark.

prospect

toffeapple wrote:

maybe we should stop arguing we have kinda high jacked this thread

Agreed.

toffeapple wrote:

my fault

Disagree, it invariably happens too every alfa thread.

unkel

ds20prefecture wrote:

The warranty for the 156 is actually 36 months and 100,000km.

Who offers a better warranty?

BMW

3 years unlimited mileage

As does Jaguar. Mercedes-Benz and Audi have a 2 years unlimited mileage and Lexus has a 3 year max. 100,000km warranty

Wasn't there a Korean / Japanese manufacturer offering a 5 year warranty?

ds20prefecture

unkel wrote:

BMW 3 years unlimited mileage

Cool! And with that service inclusive deal, that's a really good warranty. What's the warranty on a Focus?

PS: I was asking for info, not making a statement ;-)