Royce Gracie Vs. Matt Hughes announced at May UFC

damo

P.S

i WILL dig this thread up when Royce is nursing his face in the A & E room in Nevada state hospital!

waterford mma

i think matt hughes will get the jd but i don't think its impossible for royce to win. . . everyone says that royces jiujitsu is outdated . . but the gracies were doin everything you see today years before ufc even hit the scene . . . maybe his mma is a little outdated . . . . i'm not gonna argue but i do believe that with the right training partners and if he performs to his best on the night royce can pull off a quick sub on the ground. he has the first round to do it, hughes will close down after that and not try anything. i don't think it will happen but if it does that would be the best day ever. fingers crossed for royce.

judomick

royce has not fought anyone with any world class skills since yoshida and that was years ago before yoshida became in any way competent in striking, his last fight was against a no name japanes guy (tokoro) and that ended in a draw! if he couldnt finish that guy hes not goin to finish hughes huhes has better striking better take downs and his g'n'p is in a different league to Royce's, Royce was the man 15 years ago and most of us would not be doing what were doing now if it wasnt for him, he is a great jiu jitsu player but mma is a different game, if my mma career is where Royce's is right now id take a big paycheck for gettin my ass kicked too!

retirement here i come:D

Dragan

I know i've put this out there before, but hey, seeing as people are doubting Hughes i'll stick it up again. I'll see if I can find a decent Royce Highlight anywhere as well.

http://www.youtube.com/w/Matt-Hughes-highlight?v=sjD4sISOxBQ&search=mma

Dragan

http://www.youtube.com/w/Royce-Gracie-vs-Sakuraba?v=_Py2nRD00KE&search=royce%20gracie

Not a highlight, but i think it accurately demonstrates the points being made against Royce. I will try and find something about the BJ Penn vs Matt Hughes fight so people can see the weaknesses in Hughes game ( which he has pretty much covered now by the way! )

Arnagan

Dragan wrote:

You can have all the BJJ you want to be honest, if a fighter like Hughes knows your brining it then it effectiveness is dulled.

So Hughes was unaware of Hallman and BJ?

Look at Evan Tanner when he took on Terrell. Terrell is a BJJ blackbelt who had never had a point scored against him. SO he was a BJJ blackbelt who would easily submit other BJJ blackbelts.

Keep in mind that a wunderkind in Jiu Jitsu doesn't necessarily translate into being a wunderkind at MMA. Look at the obvious difference in the MMA careers of Yoshida (went the distance with Vandelei twice, 1 ncontest 1 draw v Royce, tapped Hunt, decision loss to Roulan) and Oyama (the most protected hyped up bullcrap product out of Japan) both of wich r olympic medalists in Judo.

<<Tanner stood with him and rocked him, Terrell went for the take down which Tanner defended well, got Terrell against the cage and beat on him until the ref called an end to it.>>

Yeah but lets b fair now, as cagy and well prepaired as Evan Tanner was, Terrel did almost submit him in the same technique Hallman submitted Hughes in. If he'd been smart and better prepaired (maybe even better trained, who knows?) Terrell would have let go of the Guillotenne before loosing it, and worked Tanner into his guard, and begin attempts at transitioning into something better. As it were, he shot his load, Tanner flipped the switch and as everyone saw, would have put the rookies lights out as if Herb Deane hadda let him.

The reason Penn schooled Hughes was because Hughes took the match lightly, as far as he was concerned he would be stronger and more dominant then Penn as Penn was coming up a class

So what's the excuse gonna be when Hughes gets beaten this time, he took Royce lightley cause he respects the elderly?

Hughes was expecting to go in and control Penn. This was a mistake as Penn is an extrememly talented guy and Hughes just was not able to shake him. Hughes has also come along way with reversing subs and chokes since.

Hughes goes into every fight thinking the same exact thing, even if he trains well for contingency plans (ie the way he tapped GSP, and the way he's willing to win with submissions now last fight). His whole game is to dominate positioning with strength and power, taking his shots as they come weather they're slams or submition attempts opened up with atemi like usage of blows. Royce will slowly, methodically exploit this.

Arnagan

Ph3n0m wrote:

will this be televised anywhere or do we have to wait for the dvd?

I'll b watching it live, and by then I should have my Mac up and running. If thats the case, just e-mail me and I'll b more than willing to share the wealth with any die hards.

Two things working against Royce doing this:

Royce will slowly, methodically exploit this.

3 rounds...

And his very poor stand up and poor clinch particularily relative to a monster like hughes. Admittedly royce has a better sub game then hughes but without the gi and over 3 rounds I dont think Royce can control Hughes.

I can see Royce getting tagged standing up. Being semi safe on the ground (though getting tagged a few times) and failing to do anything tbh.

In spite of it all I'm up for the underdog but tbh I cant see it.

Arnagan

Clive wrote:

Valmont what are you basing Royce having equal or better BJJ than Penn on? Most people would definitely say the other way around!

I dunno about Val, but I'd base that assumption on Royces wins over Pardue, his draw with Yoshida, his 1 hour and 45 minute 7 round war with Sakuraba, his ability to utilise only ju jitsu to defeat fighters much muchbigger, and stronger than him while taking viscous poundings.
How many 250lbers has BJ fought and defeated on a regular basis?

damo

Arnagan wrote:

I dunno about Val, but I'd base that assumption on Royces wins over Pardue, his draw with Yoshida, his 1 hour and 45 minute 7 round war with Sakuraba, his ability to utilise only ju jitsu to defeat fighters much muchbigger, and stronger than him while taking viscous poundings.
How many 250lbers has BJ fought and defeated on a regular basis?

OK OK I take it all back, Royce is still the man and hes gonna pimp-slap Hughes into submission.

Next stop Fedor.

Dragan

Arnagan wrote:

So what's the excuse gonna be when Hughes gets beaten this time, he took Royce lightley cause he respects the elderly?

I imagine that just like with Penn there won't be an excuse should he lose, he will simply say that Royce was better.

As i said earlier dude, your really taking the whole Royce thing a bit too far. He has the same chance of losing as Hughes does and that's 50/50 plain and simple.

If you just want to write off Hughes then do that, but pray that Royce is not doing the same thing.

Oh yeah, and his seven round "war" with Saku was a 7 round hiding plain and simple.

Clive

Arnagan wrote:

I dunno about Val, but I'd base that assumption on Royces wins over Pardue, his draw with Yoshida, his 1 hour and 45 minute 7 round war with Sakuraba, his ability to utilise only ju jitsu to defeat fighters much muchbigger, and stronger than him while taking viscous poundings.
How many 250lbers has BJ fought and defeated on a regular basis?

Well, in terms of pure BJJ, Penn has won the mundials, and Royce has never won anything major that I know of.

In terms of subs for MMA, Royce's only sub win since 2000 was against Akebono, who, much like most of the people he beat early in his career, has little knowledge of submissions.

BJ, however has subbed Bang Ludwig, Matt Hughes and Gomi. He generally doesn't take part in freak show matches (hence no 250lbers on his record) but he has stepped up weight divisions in the past.

Royce is a legend, and I'd love to see him win, but BJ Penn is the Prodigy.

Arnagan

mark.leonard wrote:

Dear oh dear! If Royce was a veteran of these secret Brazilian MMA events do you not think it would be reflected in his performance in other events like Pride? (where he fought like a tired old man by the way)

I never said Royce was a veteran of any secret Brazilian MMA events, simply that MMA is only new outside of Brazil, where Royce came up. MMA started out as open challenge matches between Brazilian fighters, then Brazilian fight schools until it morphed into a sporting league that where athletes could b followed similarly along side the Jiu Jitsu, Judo, Mui Tai and Boxing leagues. That sporting league & sport is called Vale Tudo (anything goes) and was reborn in Brazil, after dying as pankration in Greece long ago.
E-mail me if u want my refferences as I don't wanna brake any rules having to do with links on this bb.
Now as for fighting like a tired old man in Pride, u can't possibly b reffering to his draw, or his no contest with Yoshida (technically it was called a Yoshida win via tap but then again, I do have eyes and yes . . . they work).
And if ur saying this about his fight with Sakuraba, implying that the outcome was due in some way to Royce being out of shape or over the hill or even outclassed somehow, then u haven't spent the hour and 45 minutes it takes to watch the match (probably read a review on it or something). So somehow, u must b reffering to Royces other matches in Pride, like the ones I've never heard about, so please enlighten me. I'll go out right now and find a dvd of the fights ur reffering too dude.

<<Royce has not got an MMA record from Brazil or anywhere else that would allow him to take advantage of the Brazilian experience in MMA.>>

As for Royces MMA record from Brazilian Vale Tudo as is sanctioned today and for the last 8 years by Sergio Batarelli, founder and president of CONFEDERAÇÃO BRASILEIRA DE LUTAS VALE TUDO, there is none.
But if ud like, e-mail me and I'll send u an mpeg file I have thats about 8500 kb's large, with sound, narated by Rixon I believe, showing Royce in one of these Open Challenge Vale Tudo matches u so strongly believe didn't happen.

Matt Hughes is ten times the wrestler that either Severn or Ken Shamrock is, and he is probably the strongest pound for pound fighter in MMA.

I understand now dude, uv never actually wrestled, or even followed the sport as an enthusiast, which is ok. Its not an easy sport to follow. If u did, ud know, that weight difference in that sport counts for so very very much. Regardless of Savern, Ken's or Matt Hughes amature wrestling careers, on the matt against each other, the heavier guy allways beats the significantly lighter guy in wrestling. My point was that if Royce could handle the gnp of the big boys, little Matt's GNP'd b relatively unthreatening.

<<If Matt's GnP (which has ALWAYS been minus headbutts and knees to the head) is of such trivial value how has he managed to destroy so many people with his ground control in the past?

Right, but the GNP Royce had to contend with in the early days of the UFC had head butts and had knees to the head, and he handled that pretty well.
As for little Matt's GNP, well he's been using it against people his weight while Royce has had to cope with GNP of folks who had up to 75 pounds on him.

DO you really think that if people like Sean Sherk and GSP couldn't submit him that someone with Jiu Jitsu as dated as Royce will be able to? That is just plain ignoring the facts!

I like u man, ur really trying to debate this well, ur stating an idea, backing it up with logical conclusions and it seems like ur not getting flustered or too caught up in the agression of it all (uv actually kept from insulting me personally which is nice). IMHO, ur just slightly less informed (seen less fights)than a fellow die hard should b, which is understandable as fight vids can b hard to come by.
Email me man, I'll send u any video files out of my archives that r small enough to go through cyberspace, that u want.
Just keep in mind man, I'm no Gracy fan. I just luv this sport and feel pretty confident in my assessments about fights, and fighters that I've seen a lot of.
U differ in ur thoughts, thats cool.
Can we both agree at least that we can't friggen wait for them to get it on?

Dragan

Arnagan wrote:

U differ in ur thoughts, thats cool.
Can we both agree at least that we can't friggen wait for them to get it on?

I think thats the cleverest thing you've said since you started this thing dude.:D

damo

Just out of interest Arnagan, did you happen to see Royces K-1 fight on new years just gone by?

Tim_Murphy

LOL, I can't believe that people are having a heated debate on this subject. :rolleyes:

IMHO, ur just slightly less informed (seen less fights)than a fellow die hard should b

LOL, I've seen Mr. Leonard dvd/tape collection. :eek: I think he has seen enough fights!!

over the hill or even outclassed somehow, then u haven't spent the hour and 45 minutes it takes to watch the match

I have (actually had) the event on DVD and I'm pretty sure it was an hour and a half long, not an hour and 45 mins.

john kavanagh

"the heavier guy allways beats the significantly lighter guy in wrestling."

well like any grappling contest "the heavier guy allways beats the significantly lighter guy" only if skill is equal. the heavier guy will not always beats the significantly lighter guy if the lighter guy is significantly more skillful.

as for who wins between Royce v Hughes - the heart says royce but the mind says matt however i've seen far too many 'upsets' in MMA fights to be confident in predicting ANY fight

Arnagan

As i said earlier dude, your really taking the whole Royce thing a bit too far. He has the same chance of losing as Hughes does and that's 50/50 plain and simple. If you just want to write off Hughes then do that, but pray that Royce is not doing the same thing.

In that vein we have a saying in American Football and it goes "Any Given Sunday." so sure, I'll give ya that. They both can win.
As for my need to so vociferously "call it" ull have to forgive me as its just one of those American habits I've unknowingly picked up.
But rest assured, I'm not writing Hughes off, I just see the deck stacked against the kid in this one, which isn't a bad thing. Kid could learn a lot and get very good loosing a long war of attrition to the likes of Royce.

Oh yeah, and his seven round "war" with Saku was a 7 round hiding plain and simple.

[/QUOTE]

LOL. It just kill's u to not have seen it yet, hugh?

Arnagan

damo wrote:

Just out of interest Arnagan, did you happen to see Royces K-1 fight on new years just gone by?

What that kimura win (I think it was) vs akebono?
Yeah, didn't really interest me as much as the Fugita vs that Egyptian wrestler match, or the lightweight k-1 kickboxing match for the belt. Didn't really dig the show all together, thought it was so so.
Or r u saying Royce fought this New Years?

Arnagan

I have (actually had) the event on DVD and I'm pretty sure it was an hour and a half long, not an hour and 45 mins.

[/QUOTE]

Did Hixon throw the towel in right before the beginning of the 7th? He did didn't he, I allways mistake that fight for a 7 rounder instead of a 6, I dunno why.

Dragan

Arnagan wrote:

LOL. It just kill's u to not have seen it yet, hugh?

Eh.....yeah....of course i haven't seen it :rolleyes: Sure Royce was doing his BJJ rather well, but either way Saku was hammering him and i do believe it was Royce's corner that threw in the towel.

As i said, it was a prime example of how Royce will lose to Hughes in that even when Royce had Saku in some hard positions the stikes he was landing were just not up to much, Saku was actually doing a very decent job of trying to submit him and Royces kicks just were not there ( for someone who has done kickboxinf gor 15 years ) The BJ Penn match is a prime example of how Hughes will lose to Royce in that Royce will quite simply work his way into a position that Hughes can do nothing about.

Do i think Royce can do this in 15 mins? Nope. Personnally i think that there are only a few people who can lay on the type of beating that Hughes can in the space of 15 minutes. I truly do not think the Royce can do that.

Clive

Arnagan wrote:

My point was that if Royce could handle the gnp of the big boys, little Matt's GNP'd b relatively unthreatening.

LMAO! I really hope you're trolling.

mark.leonard

damo wrote:

Just out of interest Arnagan, did you happen to see Royces K-1 fight on new years just gone by?

This was the fighte I was referring to Arnagan, I erred when I said in his last pride fight, just got confused between the promotions. I am feeling a little silly to be still debating this now so I am just going to sum up by saying that anythign can happen in MMA, but my pick is Hughes by late first round or early second stoppage from G'n'P. If Royce can pull out a win over someone like Hughes then more power too him, especially seeing as Hughes needs to be taken down a peg or two quite badly.
I'll come back on this thread after the fight happens and we can post mortem it then.

damo

Arnagan wrote:

What that kimura win (I think it was) vs akebono?
Yeah, didn't really interest me as much as the Fugita vs that Egyptian wrestler match, or the lightweight k-1 kickboxing match for the belt. Didn't really dig the show all together, thought it was so so.
Or r u saying Royce fought this New Years?

no new years as in 3 & 1/2 weeks ago against this guy http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=2276


He got his ass kicked, it was only declared a draw due to his special rules....go have a look at this fight and see if you still think he can handle matt hughes.

Arnagan

Dragan wrote:

Hughes is a hugley strong 170 pound guy, if you think that won't help him in ANY fight then your an idiot.

If, who thinks that?

MMA now compared to MMA back then is a totally different beast, there is far more involved now than when Royce and Frankie hugged each other for 30 mins

Well, being as my well deserved rep as a rambler has been cause enough for some to dissmiss the need for simple manners, a reference to my memory will b equally effective in exposing more of the same, so here goes.
If memory serves, I do seem to have a recolection of viewing a B&W video taped or low res analog of a very young Renzo, in a caged Vale Tudo match against a fighter from the Lute Libre (?) school. The Lute Libre fighter was shorter, and stockier, initially seeming as if he'd only prepared to try and fight Renzo in a squaring off only striking type no grappling match (meaning he looked outclassed). Renzo took him down quick, held him there and from the side and the full mount tried unsuccessfully to submit the dude (I even remember thinking to myself that the hand strikes from both sides were pretty heavy being as they were both prone).
Well, this continued for a minute or minute and a half till the shorter kid, unphazed and with a relativly calm demeaner gradually worked his back to the cage in a seated straddled position (ala Coture when he sat over and straddled Vitor during 3rd fight). They still trade strikes, in the meantime the kid gets one foot, then another under him and actually works his hips off of the matt, till he was finally able to stand (ala Lidell take down defence), toss a few, face Renzo and throw a few more, then clinch heard and (ala coture)dirty box (even turning the tide of the fight for a little while).
But Renzo being who Renzo is, ended that as soon as he started tasting the kids heat, and immediatly committing hard to a double leg take down. Unfortunatly for him the kid was ready this time and sprawled into it real hard (ala any good wrestler who utilizes his amature experiences to focus fully on keeping himself on his feet) and the kid started raining blows on Renzo's head while wearing him down with all the weight in his hips.
Renzo was able to get out I believe, throw another shot at him and even get him back in his mount before back and forth back and forth the lute libre guy worked himself back up (just like the beginning of Tanner v Terrel) and finally was able to get some time in pushing and clinching with Renzo, moving him around the ring while tossing his heavy hands at the young gracy.
As it were, thats about when I began to notice the ref more than ud expect to during a good match, as well as the fact that the lute libre guys corner seemed to b multiplying. They kinda seemed to be standing all together in an inadequatly sized space along the octagon, faces pressed against the cage walls, hands and arms over tops of the cage.
Heard a lot of Portugese yelling, remember what I couldn't believe to have witnessed as two swings and a mis from one of the lute libre guys outside the ring]at Renzo's back, while Renzo's face was firmly focusing on the increasingly dangerous kid in front of him, not even realizing he'd dodged a pair of shots from behind!!
Third time was the charm though as the guy outside the ring finally finger jabbed/poked smacked kinda Renzo in his right side, causeing him to quickley move in an evasive non-combatent like side shift away from both dangers, at which time all hell broke loose, the lights went out in the venue causing a black screen. A minute or so later, the image comes back to a considerably better lit auditorium empty except for folding chairs strewn on the ground, and many dark skinned men garbed in army fatigues carrying 4 or 5 foot sticks which they were casually swinging around side to side at nothing in particular.If memory servces correct, that was before Renzo's match with Taktarov, prolly around early 90's.
Hmmmmm, seems quite a long time ago for such modern day display mma tactics the innovators like Hughes, and Lidell just recently discovered.

Valmont

Just because Royce is older than the average fighter doesn't mean his BJJ is dated. The submissions he pulled in 1993 are the exact same ones guys are using today in modern mma. Triangles, Armbars and Rear naked chokes.

Arnagan

Dragan wrote:

Eh.....yeah....of course i haven't seen it :rolleyes: Sure Royce was doing his BJJ rather well, but either way Saku was hammering him and i do believe it was Royce's corner that threw in the towel.

Dude, this ain't translating and I need to know bra. Maybe its the subtle differences in our linguistic foundations, but was that u being sarcastic or humble, meaning did u or didn't u see tha Sak v Royce match?

As i said, it was a prime example of how Royce will lose to Hughes in that even when Royce had Saku in some hard positions the stikes he was landing were just not up to much,

I pretty much consider all of Royces strikes as basically atemi's at heart, and not meant to win the battle but lead the opponent into loosing against Gracie Jiu Jitsu branded techniques. The role Royce has chosen to take in his life, as the main representative of his families ma style, is what holds him back from being the all time MMA athlete he could b. Instead, he's one of the greatest "duelists" out there, but he's more a fighter in my opinion than an MMA athlete. I mean, with that chin of his, his gas tank, support system, and indominable spirit, imagine how much better he'd really be if granted the oportunity to loose every once in a while and develope fighting skills outside the ones his family is famous for?

The BJ Penn match is a prime example of how Hughes will lose to Royce in that Royce will quite simply work his way into a position that Hughes can do nothing about.

Thats how I see it, as long as this Nevada State Athletic Commition is set strait about the issue of gi's. If not, I'd say smart money's on a long and grueling draw.

Arnagan

Tim_Murphy wrote:

LOL, I can't believe that people are having a heated debate on this subject. :rolleyes:

Hey I don't mind one bit dude, I luve all full contact sports, MMA especially. The spirit of man and his indominable will to prevail is a beautifal thing to watch, especially when its presented next to other true sportsmen showing their own brand or flavor. And ya know, I don't think I'm the only one who feels that way either (just the only one who really knows what he's talking about )

LOL, I've seen Mr. Leonard dvd/tape collection. :eek: I think he has seen enough fights!!

Awesome dude, I'm actually happy that a fellow fight fan isn't as dissadvantaged as I assumed he was. Its a shame yall live so far, I'd luv to take a peek at ur selection fights and'd happily return the favor.

Arnagan

Clive wrote:

LMAO! I really hope you're trolling.[/QUO

Royce, wearing a gi, in a challenge match (ie time limit means draw) doesn't take a fight, no lemmie rephrase that, would not b allowed to take a fight where his corner thought he stood a chance of loosing.
That is, after all, the 55+ year heratige of the Gracie family isn't it?

Arnagan

mark.leonard wrote:

This was the fighte I was referring to Arnagan, I erred when I said in his last pride fight, just got confused between the promotions.

Off with ur head traitor!!!

I am feeling a little silly to be still debating this

Don't b dude. Ya like some of this stuff, I like some of this stuff its ok for us to have strong feelings about it. Just like its ok for us to vigorously debate our dissenting opinions.
What isn't ok is getting so flustered that we can't get each other to change our minds, that we start believing imaginary stuff.
Like if ya think to urself "Oh, he thinks this and he's wrong, so he must b jerk off" or "That dudes a friggen panty waste cause he's too friggen stubborn to see anything any way but his own, that cock sucker!!!" then, ya maybe u should feel silly, but I doubt ya feel like that.

If Royce can pull out a win over someone like Hughes then more power too him, especially seeing as Hughes needs to be taken down a peg or two quite badly.

Keep in mind, the Gracies would consider a time limit draw a win. Their goals in this r totally different, to them its not a sporting event its a continuation of Helios open challenge matches.