Who has right of way here?

cormie

Please see attached image. This would be at a non controlled junction. Yellow dots on side of car indicate which way they are waiting to turn.

1) Assuming all roads are of equal importance.
2) Assuming road left and right are of minor importance or entrance to a petrol station on either side say.

silverside

in this hypothetical situation, assuming both roads are same priority, no-one has right of way & common sense should prevail - make eye contact with other drivers & proceed slowly as appropriate.

fletch

Indicators are merely signals of intent and do not imply right-of-way....tis very difficult from your diagram to say who has right of way.....which road is the minor road and which is the major?

PowerHouseDan

Well the two one's on the right and left dont assuming there is a stop side or something at the end of there road...... In the other case neither would have the right of way. Thats my own personel judgement

cormie

1) Assuming all roads are of equal importance.
2) Assuming road left and right are of minor importance or entrance to a petrol station on either side say.

colm_mcm

i would say that the cars going north and south would turn around each other, then the ones going west and east would then go around each other.

the cars going north/south are already in the junction, and there isn't an obstruction so they should proceed, whereas the cars going west/east are blocked by the other two cars.

that said you're supposed to give way to traffic on the riggh.

perhaps they should build a roundabout instead

cormie

colm_mcm wrote:

the cars going north/south are already in the junction, and there isn't an obstruction so they should proceed, whereas the cars going west/east are blocked by the other two cars.

How about this then:eek: (see attachment)

fletch

cormie wrote:

How about this then:eek: (see attachment)

Looks like a free for all to me

mike65

This is where one of the north/south car drivers simply has to have the wit to clearly indicate to the opposing driver that you are letting him/her have priority. The east/west traffic clearly has to wait.

re fletch for the second one!

Mike.

johnnyrotten

cormie wrote:

1) Assuming all roads are of equal importance.
2) Assuming road left and right are of minor importance or entrance to a petrol station on either side say.

Bit of a contradiction there!

Idleater

colm_mcm wrote:

perhaps they should build a roundabout instead

I don't have a copy of the rules of the road to hand but I think the arrangement at a crossroads where roads were of equal importance, was that it is in effect a roundabout and traffic should giveway to traffic already on the junction, coming from the right.

In your example, whichever of the two cars "second" into the junction should have given way to the other car.

If for example, the junction is not a crossroads but a T junction where all roads are of equal importance, traffic coming up the T must give way to traffic going across the top of the T so to speak.

There are plenty of examples of both of these type junctions in the many housing estates in the country...

L.

Victor

Aren't you meant to hook left and turn right? Both cars in the junction have equal right of way.

cormie

johnnyrotten wrote:

Bit of a contradiction there!

That's meant to be Scenario 1 and Scenario 2:o Not the same scenario:)

Mike, it's against the ROTR to beckon on other drivers so the giving signals isn't the "proper" way about this:(

colm_mcm

use the indian system where the bigger car has right of way

kippy

Who cares.....
In both instances some common sernse and patience is needed.....especially the seconda scenario-whereby a number of drivers have clearly lost all common sense and gone into the junction at exactly the same time.
The first intance has already been addressed as to who has the "right of way and what needs to be done in order to follow the rules of the road.
The second case, if it ever happened would involve people giving signals to eachother and asking them selves how they managed to get into the situation in the first place.

Big Balls

The way I see scenario two, it's the same as if you are at a junction and the lights are out...

cormie

Big Balls wrote:

The way I see scenario two, it's the same as if you are at a junction and the lights are out...

Well without a Garda traffic director present it's a free for all right?

Big Balls

Within reason.. you can't just plough out into the middle of the junction and expect everyone to be able to stop for you !!!

pontovic

As far as I know, so I have been told, if 4 cars come to a junction where all roads are of equal importance, they all must stop, and then whoever was there first goes, and then it goes around by whoever was 2nd, 3rd etc. This is the way they do it in America and I have been told you should do the same here. Never been in that situation here though where right of way was not clearly signposted.

Seanie M

In a situation like this, you give way to traffic to your right, and treat it as a roundabout junction.

Seanie.

MargeS

colm_mcm wrote:

i would say that the cars going north and south would turn around each other, then the ones going west and east would then go around each other.

the cars going north/south are already in the junction, and there isn't an obstruction so they should proceed, whereas the cars going west/east are blocked by the other two cars.

I agree with colm here. The two cars in the middle of the junction are supposed to turn around the rear of each car not in front. Then the the west/east cars do the same manouver

Litcagral

Seanie M wrote:

In a situation like this, you give way to traffic to your right, and treat it as a roundabout junction.

Seanie.

That's the problem. If all four vehicles arrive at the same time, someone is always going to be on someone else's right - it would be a viscious circle. Four cars could possibly enter a large roundabout simultaneously but not at a junction like that.

Litcagral

MargeS wrote:

I agree with colm here. The two cars in the middle of the junction are supposed to turn around the rear of each car not in front. Then the the west/east cars do the same manouver

You're missing the point - all four roads are of equal importance - therefore why would the cars in the "middle" go first!

samo

Seanie M wrote:

In a situation like this, you give way to traffic to your right, and treat it as a roundabout junction.

Seanie.

The diagram posted is very similar to the junction in Celbridge if anyone is familiar with it at Celbridge bridge near McNamee's pub.

(Although there's a box and one or 2 stop lines thown in for good measure!)

Generally speaking I find most drivers seem to follows Seanie's way of thinking and give way to traffic coming from the right although there is one particular exit that tends to get a raw deal and is stuck there till someone 'give's way'!

colm_mcm

Litcagral wrote:

You're missing the point - all four roads are of equal importance - therefore why would the cars in the "middle" go first!

the cars in in the middle obviously got to the junction first, unless the east/west drivers have a death wish, they're not going to drive into the sides of the north/south cars.

Litcagral

colm_mcm wrote:

the cars in in the middle obviously got to the junction first, unless the east/west drivers have a death wish, they're not going to drive into the sides of the north/south cars.

I thought the whole point of the query was if they all arrived together at a junction with roads of equal importance - otherwise there would be no problem.

colm_mcm

if you look at the picture attached to the original post.............

Litcagral

colm_mcm wrote:

if you look at the picture attached to the original post.............

I know what you mean Colm but I think the picture provided does not represent the senario or query correctly. In most situations with a junction with roads of equal importance, the roads are very minor ones being little more that the width of a car. It would therfore be unlikely that they would be in the position pictured. If they were there would be no problem.The picture also gives the impression that the N/S road is a continuous one with lines in the centre and that the E/W roads are more minor.

Seanie M

Litcagral wrote:

That's the problem. If all four vehicles arrive at the same time, someone is always going to be on someone else's right - it would be a viscious circle. Four cars could possibly enter a large roundabout simultaneously but not at a junction like that.

True, but like any roundabout, there is a way. If treated like a roundabout, there shouldn't e any real problems.... except for those out there that do not know how to use a roundabout, or know about common sense.

colm_mcm

or maybe they should all swap cars and all turn left

seamus

Technically, it's an unrealistic picture. You do not enter a junction without first making sure that your way is clear. All of the cars arriving at the junction would see the vehicle coming from their right, and stop. At that point, it's essentially a matter of someone making the decision to go.
I don't think this is scenario is covered for in the rules of the road, since whichever car makes the decision to go is breaking the law by failing to yield to all three of the other vehicles - who technically have right of way over him.

ballooba

As far as I know from my reading of the ROTR, the driver who arrives at the junction first has right of way.

mike65

I think they should draw lots (or pistols!)

Mike.

cormie

ballooba wrote:

As far as I know from my reading of the ROTR, the driver who arrives at the junction first has right of way.

But were assuming everyone arrived at the same time:o

So it's basically down to whoever breaks the law first and goes ahead of the person to their right. Imagine that.

Seanie M

Assuming everyone arrived at the same time, the scenario should be treated as if it were at a roundabout, which is almost an identical scenario.

ballooba

If all four cars arrive at exactly the same time, you should stop your car and pray. The three Horsepowermen of the apocolypse are probably driving the other three cars. it says so in the bible.

prospect

Four roads of equal importance would never meet like that.
Two of the roads will always have a stop line or sign, where you come to a halt and wait until it is safe to proceed, this prevents the situation in your second picture occuring.
In your first picture, assuming there is no traffic going straight inside either of the cars stopped on the central line, both cars can proceed at the same time, turning in front of each other. Then the cars on the left'right road would proceed in the same manner.

Litcagral

prospect wrote:

Four roads of equal importance would never meet like that.
Two of the roads will always have a stop line or sign, where you come to a halt and wait until it is safe to proceed, this prevents the situation in your second picture occuring.QUOTE]




There are many examples of junctions like this in rural ireland - four roads of equal importance - no signage/markings etc. If there wasn't this thread wouldn't exist and the Rules of the Road booklet wouldn't need to provide advice on the matter.

(Co Donegal has many such junctions and locals users usually have their own system of deciding who informally has right of way)

69 mustang

ballooba wrote:

As far as I know from my reading of the ROTR, the driver who arrives at the junction first has right of way.

This ones spot on its a system used in America a lot as equal importance cross roads and stop signs are as common as roundabouts and half abouts here.:)

Litcagral

69 mustang wrote:

This ones spot on its a system used in America a lot as equal importance cross roads and stop signs are as common as roundabouts and half abouts here.:)

Yes but we are referring to a situation where all four vehicles arrive together on each road. Otherwise there would be no problem.

bungeecork

My 2 cents...

Picture 1 Scenario 1: North/south cars have right of way and can "hook around" each other and easily turn right. The east/west cars have to wait until the junction is clear and then could hook around each other too.

Picture 1 Scenario 2: As Picture 1 Scenario 1

Picture 2: Boy racers have priority, followed by general a55holes, followed by safe drives with low insurance premiums.

Litcagral

bungeecork wrote:

My 2 cents...

Picture 1 Scenario 1: North/south cars have right of way and can "hook around" each other and easily turn right. The east/west cars have to wait until the junction is clear and then could hook around each other too.
QUOTE]


How could the N/S cars have right of way? The four roads are of EQUAL importance and a vehicle on each road would have to come to a stop at the junction. Disregard the picture - it's not a proper representation of the senario.

toffeapple

Who evers driving a jeep or a van! at least they probably think so.....

ballooba

I'd like to see the copy of the Rules of The Road which mentions "hooking around" cars.

toffeapple

If your aunt had balls would she be your uncle???

prospect

Litcagral wrote:

There are many examples of junctions like this in rural ireland - four roads of equal importance - no signage/markings etc. If there wasn't this thread wouldn't exist and the Rules of the Road booklet wouldn't need to provide advice on the matter.

(Co Donegal has many such junctions and locals users usually have their own system of deciding who informally has right of way)

I am not doubting you, or calling you a liar. But in 11 years of driving, I personally have never come accross a junction with 4 roads of equal importance, there has always been one of the following:

1. A roundabout
2. Traffic lights
3. Staggered Junction
4. A yield sign
5. A stop line
6. A sign in advance of the junction indicating your road priority, i.e. Skinny black line or Thick black line.

Maybe the junctions you refer to have had the signs vandalised, or they are no buried in the hedging, which is not uncommon. Or maybe the stop line is worn away, covered in muck or black from tyre rubber.

Victor

Of course, one has to consider what direction each is going - vehicles travelling straight on have right of way over vehicles that are turning, with right-turning vehicles having hte least right of way.

Litcagral wrote:

the roads are very minor ones being little more that the width of a car.

In that case, nobody can proceed, because the road isn't wide enough to pass.

cormie wrote:

So it's basically down to whoever breaks the law first

No he's "taking command of the junction".

bungeecork

Litcagral wrote:

N/S cars have right of way? The four roads are of EQUAL importance (...) Disregard the picture - it's not a proper representation of the senario.

My comments were based on Picture 1, where the north/south cars are already in the junction, unlike the east/west cars

Litcagral

Victor wrote:

Of course, one has to consider what direction each is going - vehicles travelling straight on have right of way over vehicles that are turning, with right-turning vehicles having hte least right of way.In that case, nobody can proceed, because the road isn't wide enough to pass.
No he's "taking command of the junction".

Victor, if the four roads are of equal importance, one cannot go straight on. What would happen if the traffic going E/W decided to go straight on and the traffic travelling N/S also decided to go straight on. Remember, all roads are of equal importance.

Quote prospect "I am not doubting you, or calling you a liar. But in 11 years of driving, I personally have never come accross a junction with 4 roads of equal importance, there has always been one of the following:" Quote.


There is a sign on ROTR - a black cross on a yellow background with all lines of equal width. Again if these junctions didn't exist, why would ROTR give advice on them. They are not commom but they do exist. Maybe someone living in rural Co Donegal would support me on this - there are a few in the Ramelton area.

colm_mcm

what are the chances of four cars meeting at the same time at a junction where all roads are equally imoprtant in donegal?

Litcagral

colm_mcm wrote:

what are the chances of four cars meeting at the same time at a junction where all roads are equally imoprtant in donegal?

Yes, its not very likely as the roads I'm referring to are very minor often with grass in the centre. They are usually very quiet hence the absence of signage/road markings- but it is theoretically possible for four vehicles to meet at the same time. My brother has been wondering about this matter for years!