Unused Argos voucher

Cucullan

I found an Argos gift voucher (€10) in my wallet but the expiry date was last May, whats the chances of them accepting it?

rubadub

I would say fairly good, argos have great customer service IME, dont even mention it and just try and use it.

Nightwish

Cucullan wrote:

I found an Argos gift voucher (€10) in my wallet but the expiry date was last May, whats the chances of them accepting it?

I work in Argos, and we CANNOT accept expired vouchers

nava

rubadub wrote:

I would say fairly good, argos have great customer service IME, dont even mention it and just try and use it.

Hi

I used 1 expired Argos voucher in the past, it was 1 of the vouchers that they give last year before Xmas spend €50 get €5 or similar and have a date stamped on them, the best way is to give it in the midlle with other 5 or 6 vouchers and if they are busy even better.

Regards

Nightwish

If that occurs ie the person on the till isnt doing the job properly , its recorded as a till short and they get in trouble.
Where I work, I oversee this area and I have all my staff warned not to redeem these vouchers and they are all very vigilant about it.
But tbh, it depends what store you go to, it just doesnt happen where I work.

nava

Nightwish wrote:

If that occurs ie the person on the till isnt doing the job properly , its recorded as a till short and they get in trouble.
Where I work, I oversee this area and I have all my staff warned not to redeem these vouchers and they are all very vigilant about it.
But tbh, it depends what store you go to, it just doesnt happen where I work.

I can agree with you that it was lucky.

Let me also explain to you what happened to me on the same store just last moth the Monday before Xmas. Also at the time when they give free vouchers, I was buying 2 items, 1 was reserved over the phone, the other was an item I chose while in the shop from the catalog, so I went to the checkout with the Argos ordering paper with the item number and reservation number, what the person did for not known reason after a lot of messing was to give me 2 receipts 1 per each item, but he didn't give me the free €5 voucher that I was to get with the transaction as part of the offer, so I asked for it, what he did was to give me a voucher from the till, not receipt for it or even adding a little note in the receipts. So I will say that the till was €5 down that day. I have to say the shop was very busy only 2 tills open, a long queue and the guy look quite new and a bit stress.

You should let us know in what store you work so we know where not to go next time I have an expired voucher.

rubadub

Nightwish wrote:

If that occurs ie the person on the till isnt doing the job properly , its recorded as a till short and they get in trouble.

Why do they expire? what happens to the money? You must have some heated arguments at times, if somebody had say €400 in vouchers.

MorningStar

rubadub wrote:

Why do they expire? what happens to the money? You must have some heated arguments at times, if somebody had say €400 in vouchers.

It is an accontancy thing. It is unreasonable to keep an debit outstanding. THe same way a cheque expires. How would you feel if you gave a company a cheque and at any point they might cash it. THe same principle really.

The money stays with the company obviously but remeber the agree meant isn't at any point they will redeem the voucher it is within a set time we will redeem the voucher. This is not a trick just terms of the agreement made by the person buying the voucher.

Nightwish

MorningStar wrote:

It is an accontancy thing. It is unreasonable to keep an debit outstanding. THe same way a cheque expires. How would you feel if you gave a company a cheque and at any point they might cash it. THe same principle really.

The money stays with the company obviously but remeber the agree meant isn't at any point they will redeem the voucher it is within a set time we will redeem the voucher. This is not a trick just terms of the agreement made by the person buying the voucher.

thats exactly what it is..and to add to that, the voucher the OP has was a free voucher, in that it was given to him as part of a promotion and its his own fault he did not redeem it within the timeframe of the offer.

Branoic

God I hate people who moan about or question expiration dates on vouchers.

Now, I don't nor have I ever worked in a job where I had to deal with vouchers, so I don't get this from any personal bad experiencing dealing with customers. Its just common sense.

The vast vast vast majority of vouchers have expirations dates, and there are valid accounting / book keeping reasons for these dates. The companies are not trying to just screw stupid people over. That's just the stupid people's assumptions

If you get a voucher, assume that it has a use-by date and, get this, use it by that date!

rubadub

MorningStar wrote:

The money stays with the company obviously

Well I think dublin bus give unclaimed change to charity. I thought maybe a big company like that might do the same. If I saw that the money went to charity on an expired voucher I wouldnt feel as bad or swindled.

MorningStar wrote:

This is not a trick just terms of the agreement made by the person buying the voucher.

Are people informed of the expiry date when buying the vouchers in argos?

Branoic wrote:

The vast vast vast majority of vouchers have expirations

The vast majority do not in my experience. I have only seen 2 in the past with an expiry date, both for resturaunts. I still have vouchers for punts in HMV & virgin that get exchanged no problems. Any I think of have no dates, dunnes, tescos. I would expect any big company to have an adequate accounting department. I wonder how much argos earn per year on this.

MorningStar

rubadub wrote:

Well I think dublin bus give unclaimed change to charity. I thought maybe a big company like that might do the same. If I saw that the money went to charity on an expired voucher I wouldnt feel as bad or swindled.

Dublin bus don't give out vouchers they are change recipts

rubadub wrote:

Are people informed of the expiry date when buying the vouchers in argos?

It is on the voucher in the terms and conditions

rubadub wrote:

The vast majority do not in my experience. I have only seen 2 in the past with an expiry date, both for resturaunts. I still have vouchers for punts in HMV & virgin that get exchanged no problems. Any I think of have no dates, dunnes, tescos. I would expect any big company to have an adequate accounting department. I wonder how much argos earn per year on this.

You aren't very experienced then. I work for the retail trade and it is the norm.
What you think doesn't actually matter in legal and consumer rights as it is plain black and white in this case. Note Argos have given out vouchers free for the last 2 years with shorter than normal expiry dates. So they give more away in vouchers than I would guess they "make". Dunnes, tesco do have expirey dates and have so for over 5 years.

HelterSkelter

MorningStar wrote:

It is an accontancy thing. It is unreasonable to keep an debit outstanding.

It's not unreasonable, it's good customer relations. How come HMV & Golden Discs can do it?

MorningStar wrote:

THe same way a cheque expires. How would you feel if you gave a company a cheque and at any point they might cash it. THe same principle really.

I had something similar, I used to go to Virgin/UGC Cinemas a lot and always paid on my credit card. I never noticed I wasn't being charged until they suddenly charged me €150 a year later! I wasn't too pleased.

MorningStar wrote:

The money stays with the company obviously but remeber the agree meant isn't at any point they will redeem the voucher it is within a set time we will redeem the voucher. This is not a trick just terms of the agreement made by the person buying the voucher.

I understand it is an agreement but I think it is very bad customer relations. In the same way most clothes stores would not offer refunds (except if something was wrong) many moons ago. Then one or two offered and most of the other large stores were forced to follow. I would be much more inclined to buy my clothes in a store which will allow me to bring them back if I don't like them and offer a full refund. In the same way I will be more inclined to buy vouchers in a shop with no expiry date on the vouchers.

rubadub

MorningStar wrote:

Dublin bus don't give out vouchers they are change recipts

In both cases it is unclaimed money that I would prefer to see going to charity rather than back to the company.

MorningStar wrote:

It is on the voucher in the terms and conditions

Do you ever have people try and immediately return vouchers after reading this?

MorningStar wrote:

You aren't very experienced then. I work for the retail trade and it is the norm.

I have had plenty of vouchers in my time, does any other people think this is the norm? I certainly do not.

MorningStar wrote:

Note Argos have given out vouchers free for the last 2 years with shorter than normal expiry dates. So they give more away in vouchers than I would guess they "make". Dunnes, tesco do have expirey dates and have so for over 5 years.

Yes, if you are talking about free vouchers I would agree that the majority have expiry dates. I have some that do not also, walshes food ones never seem to have dates.
But we are talking about vouchers you buy. I have tesco vouchers which were bought in the store and there is NO expiry date on them. I have also gotten dunnes ones a few years back as a christmas bonus with no expiry date. The ones that come free in the post for clubcard points do and this makes perfect sense, they are basically promotional vouchers wanting you to buy within a specific time, and to buy in tescos. Tescos have plenty of offers on food with dates attached as to when they will end. The manufacturers know this and will produce more food knowing that the stores will be turning over more than usual.

HelterSkelter wrote:

I understand it is an agreement but I think it is very bad customer relations. In the same way I will be more inclined to buy vouchers in a shop with no expiry date on the vouchers.

Same here. I would not buy an argos voucher as a gift knowing this now. I honestly would have presumed it would have no expiry.

Cucullan

I just want to clear something up, the €10 voucher I got was free because I spent over €100 at that time. Its the same as the voucher you'd get if you went in and bought one it just has an expiry date stamped on it. So maybe if you buy a voucher there is no expiry date and they only put it on the ones they were giving out during this promotion.

MorningStar

rubadub wrote:

In both cases it is unclaimed money that I would prefer to see going to charity rather than back to the company.

THey aren't vouchers! Unused vouchers are not unclaimed money the store has made an agrement with the person purchasing the voucher

rubadub wrote:

Do you ever have people try and immediately return vouchers after reading this?

I have known none to do it but that is most people understand this and think it is reasonable.

rubadub wrote:

I have had plenty of vouchers in my time, does any other people think this is the norm? I certainly do not.

Well I work with many retailers big and small and it is certainly the norm now. It has legal backing world wide and I know of no court case being brought or won due to a voucher expiring. Not times change so maybe your time is coming to an end. Big companies will steal our money by giving us pretty but worthless cards, wait that is a card shop:rolleyes:

rubadub wrote:

Yes, if you are talking about free vouchers I would agree that the majority have expiry dates. I have some that do not also, walshes food ones never seem to have dates.
But we are talking about vouchers you buy. I have tesco vouchers which were bought in the store and there is NO expiry date on them. I have also gotten dunnes ones a few years back as a christmas bonus with no expiry date. The ones that come free in the post for clubcard points do and this makes perfect sense, they are basically promotional vouchers wanting you to buy within a specific time, and to buy in tescos. Tescos have plenty of offers on food with dates attached as to when they will end. The manufacturers know this and will produce more food knowing that the stores will be turning over more than usual.

Don't confuse vouchers and coupons. Coupons are of products and vouchers are value based. Coupons are based on a completely different business model. Promotion vouchers of value as being complained about here. Any company not putting dates on vouchers has a huge security risk due to forgers.

rubadub wrote:

Same here. I would not buy an argos voucher as a gift knowing this now. I honestly would have presumed it would have no expiry.

If you are being unreasonable you should go the whole hog and just never shop there again.

While you think it is some form of theft legally it is fine and what few companies don't do they all will change. Most of the times companies will exchange vouchers if you go in and say you missed the expiration.

The particular voucher mentioned here was part of a promotion that had a budget and was based on the fact some people would not redeem the vouchers and if the did it would help boost sales during slow times.

rubadub

MorningStar wrote:

THey aren't vouchers! Unused vouchers are not unclaimed money the store has made an agrement with the person purchasing the voucher

The shop is getting money for nothing, and I think it would prefer to see it go to charity, end of story, you can word it any way you want, voucher coupon credit note etc.

MorningStar wrote:

If you are being unreasonable you should go the whole hog and just never shop there again.

No, I just wont buy items that I dont think are worthwhile items or value for money.

MorningStar wrote:

While you think it is some form of theft legally it is fine and what few companies don't do they all will change.

I dont think of it as theft, just unfair to a consumer who did not read the small print and so looses out on what could be a very substantial sum of money. And as I said before I would prefer to see the money go to charity.

MorningStar wrote:

The particular voucher mentioned here was part of a promotion that had a budget and was based on the fact some people would not redeem the vouchers and if the did it would help boost sales during slow times.

I did initially think the OP had bought the voucher or was given it as a gift by somebody who bought it. I was talking of tescos clubcard vouchers that come in the post and are not for any specific item, it is simply a €10 voucher and it does have an expiry date. If you buy a voucher in tescos there is NO expiry date.
I have no issues with free vouchers having expiry dates.

HelterSkelter

Morning Star, are you seriously telling me that you think it is fair for a store to sell someone a €100 voucher with an expiry date and refuse to give the customer any form of refund if they don't spend it by the expiry date? Forget about legal points, just think about it rationally. They are taking money from a customer and giving them NOTHING in return...Is this good customer relations?

Gift Vouchers are a way of drumming up business where none exists. My uncle buys me Golden Discs vouchers every Christmas. If it wasn't for him I would never set foot in the store (or any record store as I buy all my CD's off the net). Thankfully they don't put expiry dates on the vouchers. How come they can manage it and other shops can't?

MorningStar

HelterSkelter wrote:

Morning Star, are you seriously telling me that you think it is fair for a store to sell someone a €100 voucher with an expiry date and refuse to give the customer any form of refund if they don't spend it by the expiry date? Forget about legal points, just think about it rationally. They are taking money from a customer and giving them NOTHING in return...Is this good customer relations?

YES
What is more it is legal. The deal is you give the store money for a voucher that they will in turn give the bearer sales to that value within a given time. If not used within that given time the store has meet with their part of the agreement. If the person doesn't use a voucher in a year they don't sound like a customer do they? Customer service has to be balanced with sound business sense. Rational says vouchers have a limited life span

HelterSkelter wrote:

Gift Vouchers are a way of drumming up business where none exists. My uncle buys me Golden Discs vouchers every Christmas. If it wasn't for him I would never set foot in the store (or any record store as I buy all my CD's off the net). Thankfully they don't put expiry dates on the vouchers. How come they can manage it and other shops can't?

Some shops do it becasue they are not aware of the problem or targeted gangs and credit card fraud. The credit card companies are involved in the push also due to the amount of fraud involved in getting vouchers on stolen CC.
It really doesn't matter what you think is fair or not it isn't up to you. If you don't use gift within a year I would consider it an unwanted gift anyway.
It's like talking to a Joe Duffy listener where they get indignant about anything reasonable if it means stupid people lose out. How hard is it to use a voucher within a year? As I said most will let you replace the voucher if you approach them especially if you approach them prior to expiration.

HelterSkelter

MorningStar wrote:

YES
What is more it is legal.

I did ask if you could leave aside legality for one minute *sigh*

MorningStar wrote:

The deal is you give the store money for a voucher that they will in turn give the bearer sales to that value within a given time. If not used within that given time the store has meet with their part of the agreement.

I'm well aware of what the deal is but as far as I can see it's a win-win situation for the retailer.

MorningStar wrote:

If the person doesn't use a voucher in a year they don't sound like a customer do they? Customer service has to be balanced with sound business sense. Rational says vouchers have a limited life span

Answer this question which you have dodged so far...If it is so difficult then Why can HMV, Golden Discs and many other stores offer vouchers with no expiry date?

MorningStar wrote:

Some shops do it becasue they are not aware of the problem or targeted gangs and credit card fraud.

Come off it, HMV are a worldwide chain of stores, are you trying to tell me they are ignorant to fraud? That really is a weak excuse.

MorningStar wrote:

It really doesn't matter what you think is fair or not it isn't up to you.

Erm, excuse me, let me remind you of an old saying that good businesses adher to, "the customer is always right" and I AM the customer.

MorningStar wrote:

It's like talking to a Joe Duffy listener where they get indignant about anything reasonable if it means stupid people lose out.

What is? Talking to me is like that? Just because you don't agree with my opinion? If you have to resort to slagging me then you're obviously struggling to justify your point. :rolleyes:

MorningStar

HelterSkelter wrote:

I'm well aware of what the deal is but as far as I can see it's a win-win situation for the retailer.

SO , what is the point you just don't like buiness doing things where they make money? Should they put themselves in a win-lose situation or maybe a lose-lose one. The one thing you can be sure of every business is out for themselves to think otherwise is to put it mildly silly.

HelterSkelter wrote:

Answer this question which you have dodged so far...If it is so difficult then Why can HMV, Golden Discs and many other stores offer vouchers with no expiry date?

HMV no longer do print voucher and Argos or in the middle of chaging theirs. I know this business very very well. You obviously don't know it as a recent consumer. I answered this several times by the way, they are all going to change sooner rather than later. Some will most likely go for the extra control with the card systems which don't really have expiry dates at all.

HelterSkelter wrote:

Come off it, HMV are a worldwide chain of stores, are you trying to tell me they are ignorant to fraud? That really is a weak excuse.

Your ignorance of detail is actually the weak argument. HMV brought in the card system before Christmas

HelterSkelter wrote:

Erm, excuse me, let me remind you of an old saying that good businesses adher to, "the customer is always right" and I AM the customer.

It's a saying not a company policy or the law. THe customer obviously isn't always right. If fact very few complaints ever get past the initial stage as people (customers) are often wrong. For example some people believe they are entitled to goods at the price in a catalogue even if the price was misprint. A price tag in the store does not entitle the customer to the item at that price. I am sure you don't believe me but I work in the business and know my facts

HelterSkelter wrote:

What is? Talking to me is like that? Just because you don't agree with my opinion? If you have to resort to slagging me then you're obviously struggling to justify your point. :rolleyes:

Worst retort ever... It's not that I don't agree with your opinion it is that you are being unreasonable. Would you expect a company to hold on to a cheque from you and cash it at anypoint? Cheques have expiry dates as do lottery tickets etc... You are just full of your own belief of right and wrong rather than what is a sensible approach to a business transaction.

HelterSkelter

MorningStar wrote:

SO , what is the point you just don't like buiness doing things where they make money?

Not at all, businesses are there to make money and I have no problem with that. In fact I think they would make more money if they were more reasonable about the whole thing. I will not buy vouchers in a shop where there is an expiry date. I'm sure there are many people like me. Argos and others like them are losing out on a whole lot of business.

MorningStar wrote:

Should they put themselves in a win-lose situation or maybe a lose-lose one. The one thing you can be sure of every business is out for themselves to think otherwise is to put it mildly silly.

No, I would say they should make the situation more fair for the customer. How about having an expiry date but allowing the customer to renew the voucher for another year at each expiry date? That seems more fair to me.

MorningStar wrote:

HMV no longer do print voucher and Argos or in the middle of chaging theirs. I know this business very very well. You obviously don't know it as a recent consumer. I answered this several times by the way, they are all going to change sooner rather than later. Some will most likely go for the extra control with the card systems which don't really have expiry dates at all.

Ok, I haven't shopped in HMV in a while, fair enough. But Golden Discs do still issue vouchers with no expiry date. From what other posters say I believe Dunnes are the same. Anyway my question is still unanswered. I want to know how come HMV could offer a voucher without en expiry date when other shops can't/won't? You said:

It is an accontancy thing. It is unreasonable to keep an debit outstanding

. Why was it not an accounting issue for HMV?

MorningStar wrote:

Your ignorance of detail is actually the weak argument. HMV brought in the card system before Christmas

I think your refusal to explain how some shops can manage to have no expiry date and others can't/won't is the main problem here.

MorningStar wrote:

It's a saying not a company policy or the law. THe customer obviously isn't always right.

God, you are obsessed with the law. I said it is good policy. I deal with customers every day and I try to do what keeps them happy even if they are wrong 50% of the time. I hope you don't have your own business because it will go down the tubes with the attitude you have.

MorningStar wrote:

If fact very few complaints ever get past the initial stage as people (customers) are often wrong. For example some people believe they are entitled to goods at the price in a catalogue even if the price was misprint. A price tag in the store does not entitle the customer to the item at that price. I am sure you don't believe me but I work in the business and know my facts

Maybe so, red herring though.

MorningStar wrote:

Worst retort ever... It's not that I don't agree with your opinion it is that you are being unreasonable. Would you expect a company to hold on to a cheque from you and cash it at anypoint? Cheques have expiry dates as do lottery tickets etc... You are just full of your own belief of right and wrong rather than what is a sensible approach to a business transaction.

Ok, If I get a bill from the ESB, I pay by cheque, there is a mistake made and they don't cash it before the expiry date I would accept that I am still liable for the bill. I would write a new cheque. As you are so up on your legal points can you tell me if I am still liable for the bill in this case or is it tough shít for the ESB?

MorningStar

HelterSkelter wrote:

Not at all, businesses are there to make money and I have no problem with that. In fact I think they would make more money if they were more reasonable about the whole thing. I will not buy vouchers in a shop where there is an expiry date. I'm sure there are many people like me. Argos and others like them are losing out on a whole lot of business.

Trust me when I say they aren't vaguely worried about losing business from the few customers who want a differernt view of reasonable.

HelterSkelter wrote:

No, I would say they should make the situation more fair for the customer. How about having an expiry date but allowing the customer to renew the voucher for another year at each expiry date? That seems more fair to me.

I think you will find most people think what companies do in this regard is both reasonable and fair. Your view of fair and business sense don't seem to be common so they really not bothered what your opinion is.

HelterSkelter wrote:

Ok, I haven't shopped in HMV in a while, fair enough. But Golden Discs do still issue vouchers with no expiry date. From what other posters say I believe Dunnes are the same. Anyway my question is still unanswered. I want to know how come HMV could offer a voucher without en expiry date when other shops can't/won't? You said: . Why was it not an accounting issue for HMV?

Golden discs and Dunnes are essentially Irish specific companies and the risk is lower. HMV now use a different system with traceability to prevent lots of fraud etc... The outstading vouchers left in deffintily are a constant accouting problem and they effectively write off the vouchers and will not redeem vouchers past the last two designs. The terms and conditions normally say that they can refuse to accept a voucher. In other words even the ones without actual dates do actually expire you just don't know. Again this is legal

HelterSkelter wrote:

I think your refusal to explain how some shops can manage to have no expiry date and others can't/won't is the main problem here.

I never refused anything and repeating it in the same post is just a waste of space.

HelterSkelter wrote:

God, you are obsessed with the law. I said it is good policy. I deal with customers every day and I try to do what keeps them happy even if they are wrong 50% of the time. I hope you don't have your own business because it will go down the tubes with the attitude you have.

The law is to prevent unreasonable views and designed to be fair and reasonable. Well than your company has a very poor training and customer handling process. The attitude I have does not mean I can't handle customers. I have no need to cowtow to your views here when th dealing with a customer I know policies and procedure combined with conflict resolution. That is how modren retail works. Irish people are extremely in effective in complaining. You for example would keep harping on about what you feel is fair and complain about references to law and policy. Instead of simply putting your complaint in a polite letter to somebody more senior.

HelterSkelter wrote:

Maybe so, red herring though.

Not really just an illistraton of how common sense is neither common or sense.

HelterSkelter wrote:

Ok, If I get a bill from the ESB, I pay by cheque, there is a mistake made and they don't cash it before the expiry date I would accept that I am still liable for the bill. I would write a new cheque. As you are so up on your legal points can you tell me if I am still liable for the bill in this case or is it tough shít for the ESB?

ESB is not a retail business in matter of bills for electricity consumption but I'll have a go. The procedure for having a cheque recieved in company normally means they certainly won't get lost. If the company has a record of the cheque and no cheque they will write off the money but if you found that out I'd be surprised. You are more likely to recieve a letter saying the cheque never arrived. The banking procedure in retail would mean the company would mean the account and record of cheque against customers are done at the saem time.

Look you obviously don't know enough about retail , accountancy and business to actually form a proper opinion. It is fine that you have an opinion cobbled together from what you feel is right. That is nice for you but the point will remain the law have decided waht is reasonable and fair. Your opinion is over rulled becasue you simply don't know enough. To have an opinion you should know the facts of the matter first you don't.

mdebets

MorningStar wrote:

It has legal backing world wide and I know of no court case being brought or won due to a voucher expiring.

This is not quite true. In Germany it's against the law to have an expiry date on vouchers, as they are seen as money (which can only be used in the one store), which also has no expiry date.

MorningStar

mdebets wrote:

This is not quite true. In Germany it's against the law to have an expiry date on vouchers, as they are seen as money (which can only be used in the one store), which also has no expiry date.

Good point but I said it has legal back world wide not it is the law in every country so what I said is true!!:p Germany the country where it is illegal to show comparative pricing

HelterSkelter

MorningStar wrote:

Trust me when I say they aren't vaguely worried about losing business from the few customers who want a differernt view of reasonable.

I think you will find most people think what companies do in this regard is both reasonable and fair. Your view of fair and business sense don't seem to be common so they really not bothered what your opinion is.

Fair enough, I'll take my money elsewhere.

MorningStar wrote:

Golden discs and Dunnes are essentially Irish specific companies and the risk is lower. HMV now use a different system with traceability to prevent lots of fraud etc...

What is their new system? Is it those swipe cards that Easons use? Do you really think they are safe from fraud? If these criminals can clone ATM & Credit cards they can sure as hell manage a gift swipe card.

MorningStar wrote:

The outstading vouchers left in deffintily are a constant accouting problem and they effectively write off the vouchers and will not redeem vouchers past the last two designs. The terms and conditions normally say that they can refuse to accept a voucher. In other words even the ones without actual dates do actually expire you just don't know. Again this is legal

You are trying to píss me off aren't you? I am not talking about the law here, I am not thinking of making a legal challenge to any company with expiry dates of their vouchers nor do I think anyone else is. What we are talking about here is good customer relations.

MorningStar wrote:

The law is to prevent unreasonable views and designed to be fair and reasonable...

WHAT LAW?!!! We're not talking about laws. See point above.

MorningStar wrote:

I know policies and procedure combined with conflict resolution.

WHy don't you put it in practice on boards.ie then?

MorningStar wrote:

You for example would keep harping on about what you feel is fair and complain about references to law and policy. Instead of simply putting your complaint in a polite letter to somebody more senior.

How do you know what I would do? You know nothing about me. I never made any reference to law, you are obsessed with law.

MorningStar wrote:

Look you obviously don't know enough about retail , accountancy and business to actually form a proper opinion. It is fine that you have an opinion cobbled together from what you feel is right. That is nice for you but the point will remain the law have decided waht is reasonable and fair. Your opinion is over rulled becasue you simply don't know enough. To have an opinion you should know the facts of the matter first you don't.

Ok, so what you're saying is that I have no right having an opinion here unless I understand the finer points of accountancy? In case you haven't noticed this is a consumer issues forum and we are dealing with a consumer relations issue here. So I have every right to reply. The customer doesn't care about the reasons why, they just see that one store offers a voucher with no expiry date and the other store has an expiry date, end of story.

You have a very condescending attitude and are very intolerant of people who disagree with you.

HelterSkelter

MorningStar wrote:

It has legal backing world wide and I know of no court case being brought or won due to a voucher expiring.

mdebets wrote:

This is not quite true. In Germany it's against the law to have an expiry date on vouchers, as they are seen as money (which can only be used in the one store), which also has no expiry date.

MorningStar wrote:

Good point but I said it has legal back world wide not it is the law in every country so what I said is true!!:p Germany the country where it is illegal to show comparative pricing

*sigh*

rubadub

They are taking money from a customer and giving them NOTHING in return...Is this good customer relations?

MorningStar wrote:

YES

So do you think vouchers without expiry dates are worse for customer relations? Or would you admit they are better for customer relations.

MorningStar wrote:

Irish people are extremely in effective in complaining. You for example would keep harping on about what you feel is fair and complain about references to law and policy.

The only person mentioning the law is yourself! nobody has claimed it is illegal. Stores do not have to accept back perfectly good products either, HMV do though, within 21 days you can get your money back, not and exchange CASH. I know plenty of people who still buy cds there rather than online if they are unsure of an album, safe in the knowledge they can return it even if it is a few euro more. Plenty of big shops accept back clothes too. You keep saying how much you know about the retail business surely you must agree that stores doing these services have good customer service. That is what people are talking about here, not the law.

MorningStar wrote:

Look you obviously don't know enough about retail , accountancy and business to actually form a proper opinion. It is fine that you have an opinion cobbled together from what you feel is right. That is nice for you but the point will remain the law have decided waht is reasonable and fair. Your opinion is over rulled becasue you simply don't know enough. To have an opinion you should know the facts of the matter first you don't.

That is laughable, how utterly patronising and condescending can you get! He does know the "facts of the matter", he knows it is perfectly legal and may make some accounting sense. All we are saying is that we think it is better for customers to get a voucher with no expiry date, most shops I see do it, argos do not and obviously could if they wanted to.

I don't know why there were so many threads about the smoking ban, didnt those people opposed to it realise their opinions meant absolutely nothing, the law decided what was fair. And they WERE questioning the law...

Nightwish

HEY!!! I know you've turned it into a debate on expiration dates on vouchers but just to remind you the OP was given the voucher for FREE as part of a promotion and was given a specified time limit in which to use it...as with all offers.

CJhaughey

Its just tough ****ski , I had vouchers from Aer arann after I was bumped off a flight and they expired I didn't cry I just accepted that I had made an error , one that I will not make again.

rubadub

Nightwish wrote:

HEY!!! I know you've turned it into a debate on expiration dates on vouchers but just to remind you the OP was given the voucher for FREE as part of a promotion and was given a specified time limit in which to use it...as with all offers.

I know, that was revealed later. I have absolutely no problem with that voucher having an expriation date. And there is certainly not a time limit on "all offers" like you said. I have plenty of coupons at home with no expiration dates.

MorningStar

rubadub wrote:

So do you think vouchers without expiry dates are worse for customer relations? Or would you admit they are better for customer relations.

No I in fact know this as it has no effect on voucher sales. There are codes to track replacing vouchers in stores due to expiration and it is rare. So not only do I not think it effects customer relations but it actually has no impact what so ever.

rubadub wrote:

The only person mentioning the law is yourself! nobody has claimed it is illegal. Stores do not have to accept back perfectly good products either, HMV do though, within 21 days you can get your money back, not and exchange CASH. I know plenty of people who still buy cds there rather than online if they are unsure of an album, safe in the knowledge they can return it even if it is a few euro more. Plenty of big shops accept back clothes too. You keep saying how much you know about the retail business surely you must agree that stores doing these services have good customer service. That is what people are talking about here, not the law.

I suggest you go into HMV and try to do that with a PS2 game and find out there policy for real . I don't agree that it improves customer service as you pay for the good by the premium margin they have on their goods. No retailer does anything for good customer service as such it is just a way to make more money.

rubadub wrote:

That is laughable, how utterly patronising and condescending can you get! He does know the "facts of the matter", he knows it is perfectly legal and may make some accounting sense. All we are saying is that we think it is better for customers to get a voucher with no expiry date, most shops I see do it, argos do not and obviously could if they wanted to.

I am sure I could do a better job of being condescending but would you understand any more? I will however admitt I did get something wrong, Argos are using the card system but they are using it with expiration dates. Actually you didn't say it was good for customer service it was about what was morally right and fair. The legal system assed the subject and came to what they thought was fiar, it isn't just a simple legal assement but firness in law.

rubadub wrote:

I don't know why there were so many threads about the smoking ban, didnt those people opposed to it realise their opinions meant absolutely nothing, the law decided what was fair. And they WERE questioning the law...

Actually that was legaslation for the safety of society and considerably differernt to what is fair. There was the element of fairness with regard to safety of the working environmnet which was ultimately what the law was brought into fix.

HelterSkelter

MorningStar wrote:

No I in fact know this as it has no effect on voucher sales. There are codes to track replacing vouchers in stores due to expiration and it is rare. So not only do I not think it effects customer relations but it actually has no impact what so ever.

What! Not even me? Do my sales not count at all?!!

MorningStar wrote:

I suggest you go into HMV and try to do that with a PS2 game and find out there policy for real . I don't agree that it improves customer service as you pay for the good by the premium margin they have on their goods.

Lots of stores accept clothes back for no reason once they are not worn. Dunnes & River Islands are a couple that spring to mind. Don't you think somebody is more likely to shop in one of those stores that has a 30 day no quibble returns policy?

MorningStar wrote:

No retailer does anything for good customer service as such it is just a way to make more money.

Yeah, I agree, but good customer service = more sales = more money

MorningStar wrote:

I will however admitt I did get something wrong...

Well I'm amazed, wonders never cease!!

MorningStar

HelterSkelter wrote:

What! Not even me? Do my sales not count at all?!!

Maybe if you write them a letter you could get filed under loon. The figures show no difference when it is brought in and no problems with customer service.

HelterSkelter wrote:

Lots of stores accept clothes back for no reason once they are not worn. Dunnes & River Islands are a couple that spring to mind. Don't you think somebody is more likely to shop in one of those stores that has a 30 day no quibble returns policy?

I can tell you in the US if you didn't have the policy it would be a problem. In Europe it is not and as I said who do you think pays for returned goods? If you take the tags off the clothes in most shops they will not let you return it no matter what country. Clothes are slightly different anyway with profit margins in the 3 figures typically 600%.

HelterSkelter wrote:

Yeah, I agree, but good customer service = more sales = more money

That is a nice belief but not true. Bad customer service causes a problem and a clearly stated policy is not bad customer service. The limited number of complaints and the type of people who would complain about such an issue would be basically deemed too much trouble for the net benifit. THey crunch numbers and work it out.

HelterSkelter

MorningStar wrote:

That is a nice belief but not true. Bad customer service causes a problem and a clearly stated policy is not bad customer service.

I have to disagree. I used to work for a retailler. There were 2 other retaillers on the same road within 500m selling the same product for the same price. He reckoned he got much more business because he concentrated on giving the customers good service.

MorningStar

HelterSkelter wrote:

I have to disagree. I used to work for a retailler. There were 2 other retaillers on the same road within 500m selling the same product for the same price. He reckoned he got much more business because he concentrated on giving the customers good service.

Well working with over 30 major retail chain that operate world wide I might just have a tad more experience on this:p
"Reckoning" as a way to calculate profit and costs tend to be the biggest problems companies experience. Performance and figures tell you what is working to make profit. As I said it is not good customer service that gets you business it is bad customer service that costs you. Just don't be bad is actually how retailers operate now.
The companies will not change the policy it is both logical and fair, it is also legal so there is no ground to complain excpet to be unreasonable. The customer is not always right.

HelterSkelter

MorningStar, to revert to one of your previous points, can you explain what is the difficulty with accepting old vouchers from an accounting point of view?

MorningStar

HelterSkelter wrote:

MorningStar, to revert to one of your previous points, can you explain what is the difficulty with accepting old vouchers from an accounting point of view?

No , I suggest you read the whole thread as it well explained.

HelterSkelter

I did read the thread. The two reasons I found are

It is an accontancy thing. It is unreasonable to keep an debit outstanding. THe same way a cheque expires. How would you feel if you gave a company a cheque and at any point they might cash it. THe same principle really.

and

there are valid accounting / book keeping reasons for these dates

I am just interested in the details behind why it is a problem. I mean is it just a pain in the arse for some accountant to deal with? Are the company afraid of a large number of vouchers building up thus they owe a lot of money to customers? Do the same problems arise when issuing a credit note to customers?

MorningStar

Businesses write off bad debits to balance such things you also write off bad credit. More to the point you treat the consumer like a normal bussiness. As I pointed out you wouldn't expect them to cash a cheque at any point this is the exact same as them.
That is it no discussion, no debate it is what is done. At any point the voucher can be made null and void as per the terms and conditions. Even the ones without expire dates expire. These are business not the central bank.

rubadub

MorningStar wrote:

No I in fact know this as it has no effect on voucher sales. There are codes to track replacing vouchers in stores due to expiration and it is rare. So not only do I not think it effects customer relations but it actually has no impact what so ever.

Are you for real? every comment you make is so absolutely definite. How in the name of jaysus do you think it has no effect on voucher sales when 2 of us have already said we would not buy them because of it. I know plenty who would not either. People may use them before the expiration date but could buy something they dont really want. I know plenty that go to HMV and blow them on stuff they don't really want, even though there is no expiration date, some would keep them for another day, but if they DID have an expiration date people would use them on a semi wanted cd. Then would think feck them I didnt like that expiration date forcing me to buy that so I will not buy a voucher for my mate. How on earth can your "figures" reflect peoples decisions to buy them in the first place.

MorningStar wrote:

suggest you go into HMV and try to do that with a PS2 game and find out there policy for real . I don't agree that it improves customer service as you pay for the good by the premium margin they have on their goods.

I already told you why it is good for the CUSTOMER, they have a no-quibble returns policy on cds and dvds anyways. I am not sure about games, I never bought one, maybe it is mentioned in the terms on the wall in HMV since so many people played it and returned it afterwards, treating it like a rental shop. Some people will pay the extra €2 as a form of insurance if you like. I bought plenty of cds in my time that I would not have "risked" buying if I was not sure I could have got a refund, I end up keeping about 80% of them.
You seem to know about argos, why do you think all their advertisements scream about the 16 day return policy, do you not think that pulls in more customers. For somebody who "knows everything about retail" you don't seem to be able to grasp the fundamental things customers want.

MorningStar wrote:

No retailer does anything for good customer service as such it is just a way to make more money.

Yes the retailer is making more money by selling good to people who otherwise may have bought it elsewhere where they knew they could return it if it was unwanted. The shop gets goodwill by word of mouth and return service. How can you claim to know so much about retail, and yet be completely BLIND to what a customer could possibly want. Your magical figures do not show a lot of what makes people decide to buy in one place or another.



Can you answer me this.
If somebody gave you a present of a voucher for a clothes shop that you do not usually frequent and said to you "I have 2 of these for €100 would you like the one with an expiry date of 1 year or the one with no expiry date?"
Which would you pick and why? ( and please not some weasily bullcrap like, "I would tell my friend to keep it himself")

Culchie

It's a good lively debate lads, but just keep it civil

MorningStar

rubadub wrote:

Are you for real? every comment you make is so absolutely definite. How in the name of jaysus do you think it has no effect on voucher sales when 2 of us have already said we would not buy them because of it. I know plenty who would not either.

Simple I implemented this in many stores due to the problems they had with fraud. Sales of vouchers have not been effected that is how I can diffitively answer the question. You can choose not to believe me and beleive the consumer power you weild really makes a difference.
If you paid a ttention you would have nooticed I said reissued vouchers are accounted for and are minimal.

rubadub wrote:

I already told you why it is good for the CUSTOMER, they have a no-quibble returns policy on cds and dvds anyways. I am not sure about games, I never bought one, maybe it is mentioned in the terms on the wall in HMV since so many people played it and returned it afterwards, treating it like a rental shop. Some people will pay the extra €2 as a form of insurance if you like. I bought plenty of cds in my time that I would not have "risked" buying if I was not sure I could have got a refund, I end up keeping about 80% of them.
You seem to know about argos, why do you think all their advertisements scream about the 16 day return policy, do you not think that pulls in more customers. For somebody who "knows everything about retail" you don't seem to be able to grasp the fundamental things customers want.

What the customer wants really doesn't matter as much as consumers believe. Look at this way Ford have been proven to have decided not to recall a car that had a fatal flaw becuase less would be paid oput in claims. Actual people died as a result. Do you think loosing a few customers is a big deal if it saves them a fortune?
As I explained theextra €2 extra doesn't really benifit the consumer as you think it is advertisemnet fluff to increase profits. The consumer looses out in the same way insurance is sold on new appliances. If you don't think so good for you but it isn't smart shopping.

rubadub wrote:

Yes the retailer is making more money by selling good to people who otherwise may have bought it elsewhere where they knew they could return it if it was unwanted. The shop gets goodwill by word of mouth and return service. How can you claim to know so much about retail, and yet be completely BLIND to what a customer could possibly want. Your magical figures do not show a lot of what makes people decide to buy in one place or another.

Far far overratted is the good word when dealing with large chains. It only really matters with small shops. There are lots of studies on this. If you worked on retail and read as many reports and studies as I have you might know the truth. As is you have belief that certain things make a difference but as I read the industry information I know what they base their stuff on. THey pay lip sevice to the common beliefs such as the customer is always right and you are falling for it. I know what you don't know about retail and what you believe.

By the way the retail movement is now starting to take name and addresses of people who return goods and will flag customers for repeated returns will be barred from stores. A lot of fraud is the reason along with CD copying etc...

rubadub wrote:

Can you answer me this.
If somebody gave you a present of a voucher for a clothes shop that you do not usually frequent and said to you "I have 2 of these for €100 would you like the one with an expiry date of 1 year or the one with no expiry date?"
Which would you pick and why? ( and please not some weasily bullcrap like, "I would tell my friend to keep it himself")

I have yet to weasle out of anything. It doesn't bother me becasue I know both have expiration dates whichg you don't believe or understand. Either way I wouldn't care. If I was stupid and really believed it made a difference it wouldn't bother me either. Expiration dates are normally 2 years by the way.

rubadub

MorningStar wrote:

It doesn't bother me becasue I know both have expiration dates whichg you don't believe or understand. Either way I wouldn't care. If I was stupid and really believed it made a difference it wouldn't bother me either. Expiration dates are normally 2 years by the way.

MorningStar wrote:

I have yet to weasle out of anything

You just did!
again, which would you pick? and why?

MorningStar

rubadub wrote:

You just did!
again, which would you pick? and why?

Listen I would base it on the stores if not the stores or value are any different I would pock the one closest to me.
I WOULD NOT CARE. That is my opinion. If you can't understand that it makes no difference then that is your problem. You obviously are missing something where by you can't see your view doesn't effect how others think.

rubadub

MorningStar wrote:

You obviously are missing something where by you can't see your view doesn't effect how others think.

No just wanted to verify your view. I think it is very odd that you would not care about being forced into buying within a specific time limit or risk loosing out completely.

If I was offered a €1000 voucher for a travel agents with a choice of one with a 1 year expiry date or one with no expiry date, I would go for the one with no expiry date. I honestly think most people would too, it is simple common sense. Why would people not care about restrictions.

MorningStar

rubadub wrote:

No just wanted to verify your view. I think it is very odd that you would not care about being forced into buying within a specific time limit or risk loosing out completely.

If I was offered a €1000 voucher for a travel agents with a choice of one with a 1 year expiry date or one with no expiry date, I would go for the one with no expiry date. I honestly think most people would too, it is simple common sense. Why would people not care about restrictions.

Becasue as I keep telling you the ones without expiry dates also expire! As I also said it is normally 2 years and that companies have handling practices in most cases for expiration. Nobody real loses you are just ranting on about something that is not really a problem except in small minded people who can't gasp simple business practices. You have the power to not buy such vouchers, why you would restrict anybody to one store in the first place?
When you ever get into your fantasy world where somebody is offering you two vouchers with and without expire dates printed you can make the right decision for you.
Some people aren't idiots and some people are you can decide what you think of somebody who doesn't care about expiration dates as you like. It won't change the business practice or law.

rubadub

MorningStar wrote:

Becasue as I keep telling you the ones without expiry dates also expire!

I used vouchers in punts last year in HMV. They may well be allowed to "expire" the vouchers by law. I would not be impressed with a company that did that.

MorningStar wrote:

you are just ranting on about something that is not really a problem except in small minded people who can't gasp simple business practices.

You are the one ranting about legality and alleged superior knowledge. We all know the reasons businesswise. Some companies obviously think it is worth their while to put no expiry dates on vouchers. Argos certainly must think their 16 day return policy is worthwhile financially, and HMV with their 21 days.

MorningStar wrote:

When you ever get into your fantasy world where somebody is offering you two vouchers with and without expire dates printed you can make the right decision for you.

Yes it is fanatasy, it is called a hypothetical question :rolleyes:

If a person won some competition and was offered the choice of a holiday voucher for €1000 that expired in 30 days or one that expired in 10 years I would think most would pick the 10 years one. I think you are in the minority if you didnt care which you got.

HelterSkelter

MorningStar wrote:

Becasue as I keep telling you the ones without expiry dates also expire! As I also said it is normally 2 years and that companies have handling practices in most cases for expiration.

If there is no expiry date printed on the terms & conditions then it can not expire. That would NEVER stand up in a court of law.

MorningStar

HelterSkelter wrote:

If there is no expiry date printed on the terms & conditions then it can not expire. That would NEVER stand up in a court of law.

WRONG! At any point the business can null and void the voucher at any time! This is in the terms and conditions and has legal backing. It doesn't really happen that way normally current vouchers are used as in most cases with expiration.

rubadub

MorningStar wrote:

No retailer does anything for good customer service as such it is just a way to make more money.

I dont see why they all do not just announce that you are getting nothing for your voucher so, that would be the best business practise according to your logic. I mean people bad mouthing or praising businesses does nothing to sales according to your magical figures.