Ravings of an aging gamer!!

Ciaran500

VeVeX wrote:

The PGR3 engine is not half as advanced as GT4. There was a hell of alot more development put into Gran Turismo 4. I think Gothem is an ordinary game that got a half polish for release on the 360. Graphically it is far from perfect and as for handling and the realism its a basic arcade game.

It is an arcade game, not a sim.

MadMoss

As someone in the IT industry (who has done some software work in the games industry too,) I would like to add a few points. I bought an xbox 360 before Christmas and I have now come to the conclusion how little Microsoft care for their customers and how much they just want money.

Firstly its initial cost, €300 (for the core system), I don't think this price is out of the ordinary for the price of a new console at launch. A valid point that should be made in this discussion

The price of a game for the x-box 360 varies from about €65-70 in most retail shops. IMO no game is worth this price. Is it fair to compare this price to the cost of a new movie released on DVD? While they are different industries with different markets, I think many comparisons can be drawn. A reasonable price for a game IMO is €30. €70 is ridicules. (A lot of thought put into this point BTW. I can elaborate, but it may bore u.)

I think that the way Microsoft launched the 360 is disgraceful. Many were disappointed at Christmas including younger children.

On a non-financial issue the 360 makes a lot of noise, substantially more than any console before it. As an “IT expert” I feel confident in saying that there is no reason for this other than it was released too early. Why not spend some time looking at a better cooling system? i.e. a slightly bigger, but slower fan, thus reducing noise for starters.

Backwards compatibility is a big problem. It seems that no original x-box game will work on less u have a hard disk costing u €100. It seems the emulator is on the hard disk instead of coming with the console itself, for obvious reasons. Also none of your original joy pads, memory sticks, remotes, cams, etc., etc. will work. Microsoft expects their customers to buy a whole new kit! They have a hard neck it seems.

Anyways, I hope I haven’t spoiled anyone’s console with my complaints, that not my intention. On the up side the lighting, and particle capabilities of the console really are fab, there is a lot of possibilities with this console so lets just wait and see.

Later.

xanthor

Vegeta wrote:

Also can someone please tell me why the games are so expensive?

Greed.





As for the greater fleibility thing with a PC,you're correct.

Personally, It would drive me nuts to have to change my Videocard every 6 to 9 monts and mess around with the latest version of Direct X in order to play a new game.

When one buys a console, there is certainty that games available for it will work without any need to take the console apart.... that's the main reason i go with consoles instead of PC's

KerranJast wrote:

I would expect sales of the 360 in Japan to pick up anyway towards next Christmas. The PS3 will probably have debuted by then and people will see that is not exactly sent from Heaven (although it could be pretty damn good) plus the 360 should have a stable platform by then with some good next gen games.

Bit off topic but.............

The vast majority of people who own a PS2 are casual gamers. They bought one becasue Sony marketing told them it was 'cool',and they don't see the need to own more than one current console at a time.

The marketing for the PS3 will be at least as agressive.

On top of that, although they are intersted in products/ideas from other countries, a lot of people in Japan are fiercely loyal to what they as domestic products.

Those two factors combined will mean MS can't win against Sony. Hopefully they will gain a lot of ground at least.

Vegeta

Project Mayhem and Mad Moss thanks for the comments.

To Steveic explain to me how you think PGR3 and PDZ are better than say GT4 or Halo 2 other than graphically.

PGR3 while being very fun to race is very limited in terms of modes, wow you can play it on line. I didn't see that comin.

PDZ is just weak all round, I cant think of one area that I thought it was "next gen"

I am not console bashing let me get that across, its just the games at the mo that I am unhappy with

Ciaran500

MadMoss wrote:

As someone in the IT industry (who has done some software work in the games industry too,) I would like to add a few points. I bought an xbox 360 before Christmas and I have now come to the conclusion how little Microsoft care for their customers and how much they just want money.

Just like every corporation in exsistance

MadMoss wrote:

The price of a game for the x-box 360 varies from about €65-70 in most retail shops.

They are priced like that cause they can get away with it. Its standard for any console launch, just wait it out and prices will drop with competiton.

MadMoss wrote:

I think that the way Microsoft launched the 360 is disgraceful. Many were disappointed at Christmas including younger children.

Microsoft were producing them as fast as they could, every new console and every must have christmas present has this problem.

MadMoss wrote:

Backwards compatibility is a big problem. It seems that no original x-box game will work on less u have a hard disk costing u €100. It seems the emulator is on the hard disk instead of coming with the console itself, for obvious reasons. Also none of your original joy pads, memory sticks, remotes, cams, etc., etc. will work. Microsoft expects their customers to buy a whole new kit! They have a hard neck it seems.

Once again this is standard and expected with new consoles, they take a huge hit on the console they have to get money from somewhere.

sillysquid

Give it some time, launch titles are rarely worth getting too excited about. Even Halo was over-rated.

To be honest though, I think PGR and Call Of Duty look and play wonderfully on the 360. I'm very happy with them! And while it's a fair point that a decent PC can be bought for a reasonable price, you'll find that in 18 months or so, you're gonna need to upgrade your hardware to get the best results when it comes to playing Half-Life 3 or whatever.

The reason I always invest more time/money in console gaming is that you know you're going to get a good few years worth of gaming out of your machine without the need to upgrade graphics cards etc. Also, as time progresses the quality of games available on a machine generally improves a great deal as companies master the platform. Just look at games like God Of War, Resi Evil 4, Halo 2....

Yeah I know the Xbox still had about a year left before the 360 came along and killed it, but this was more down to Microsofts desperation to get a firmer grip on the market. Consoles over pc gaming any day for me!

CiDeRmAn

The reason i invest money in a new console is so I can play the latest and best games, how long a format is to last is never a consideration.
Who cared at the Xboxes launch if it was going to die an early death?
Nope I went right out and bought one with PGR and Halo and loved every minute of it, same reason I bought a Gamecube and a PS2 at launch.
And as far as I remember the PS2 has a truely awful launch lineup compared to the games available at the time for the DC but people still went out and bought the infernal device in their droves.
The 360 is a nice machine, the games in the launch line up are pretty good overall, Perfect Darkbeing the only real let down.
I have no HD set and still can appreciate the increase in detail in each title.
So yes graphics are the most obvious area where the 360 is better that the last gen.
But to those that seem to be expecting so much more, i ask, what exactly do you want?
New Gameplay types?
New ways of entertaining ourselves?
Well, I think you are deluding yourselves, we have waited for a long time for some fundamental shift in gaming of the type when the N64 came out with Mario64 and I am afraid, you are going to be sorely disappointed.
Until the interface itself changes there is little to be done to alter ones gaming experience except to improve graphical realism or other art effects, beef up realism with graphics again and physics, better story telling and where thats not applicable the creation of more spectacular twitch games, like Geometry Wars 2.
If its a new way to play you want, wait for the Revolution, if its an evolution of gaming as you know it, the 360.
Don't kid yourself to thinking that the PS3 is going to be any different, its not, new versions of old game formats, platformers, racers, war games, FPS, RTS, etc.

And as for GT4 being a sim and PGR3 being arcade, yeah, sure, the way the cars in GT4 bounce off barriers and never recieve any damage is really, realy realistic, don't think so, its more like Pokemon for petrol heads, give me PGR, Ridge Racer and Toca any day.

And Halo being over-rated, what planet did you drop from?
It represented the biggest improvement in FPS gaming since Goldeneye and HalfLife, don't know what game you were playing pal.

Vegeta

What a lovely debate we have going here!!

I bought an N64 and PS2 at launch and didn't have to pay those prices for games, come to think of I bought a gamecube at launch also and didn't pay those game prices. I have never paid over 60 euro for a game.

And yes I expect a lot more form the 360 and PS3 games cos they are running on number crunching power houses, AI should be vastly better, the physics in all games could take a step forward, more dynamic interaction with the game environments to name the first few that come into my head.

Ok I agree that I prefer playing PGR3 driving wize cos I suck at driving games and its easire to drive in it but there is so much more depth in games like Forza and GT4

Well I suppose I should let up a little and give it a break, I just looked at all the launch titles for every console there on wikipedia and in fairness the 360 has quite a few. I suppose I'm just disappointed as I was expecting better, its my own high expectations that set me up for a fall, I'm sure I'll be impressed over the course of the year anyway with oblivion and Ghost recon of particular interest to me. I am definitely a quality over quantity man anyday

FrankGrimes

Interesting thread.

I’m normally a very shrewd consumer and will research things to death and will always buy online before purchasing. So I had heard all sorts of horror stories about overheating and noise about the 360 before I bought it, but having played the demos I couldn’t resist. Sensible part of me says I should have waited longer for a quieter and cooler version, but for once I just said screw it and bought it.

My main reason for buying it was for use as a Media Center Extender. I’m 25 and rarely play games though I do enjoy them when I get time, but the gaming side is a bonus as my focus is on using it in the living room as a source for all my media. I had the Extender setup for a few minutes but have run into a bug which is hard to resolve. Well disappointed at MS about this, but for the little while I had it essentially acting as a client of my media center pc it absolutely rocked. Media Center is my single most favourite piece of software ever and now I can dump the PC into the box bedroom and enjoy everything off it in the living room. The xbox is way too noisy but I really don’t notice it when I’m listening to my media – I had promised myself I would take it straight back if I could hear it while watching TV through the media center.

The animated transitions in the slideshows are great, and the visualizations are out of this world (though you have to stream via media connect for this as media center extender cant do it, but its all done from the one remote so whats the difference). And because its taking pride of place in my living room I’m finding I’m picking up the controller and playing more games than I expected (only got it on Sunday though).

To get the most out of the 360 I’d say you need to be using all the media aspects of it. I’m looking forward to getting the streaming setup so I can listen to my own tunes during games.

As for the gaming side, I’m pretty impressed. I have a lend of a mates €2000 philips 30inch crt while he is away for the year and the picture is simply amazing – way better than on my dads Mitsubishi black diamond. When he gets back next year I’ll be getting a HD TV and though I’m delighted with the current pic this will be even better. I have PGR3 and Quake4 (only bought this with the intention of swapping it in a week or two but girlfriend spilt water on it). Only played 30 mintues of Quake but it looks great so I might get into it, and I think PGR3 is class. I totally suck at it but think it plays very well, and the online aspect is class. I’m with most people here in thinking that the price of the games is ridiculous and totally unjustified but do have to say I feel anyone who bought a Core is only bringing extra expense on themselves cos you knew you were gonna need a HD so why not go the whole hog and spend that extra €100 up front and get €200 worth of gear you will need anyway (e.g. headset)?

Bottom line is its flawed, may not be as groundbreaking on the games side YET as some would like, but future games will improve, but it the media side of it is quality and will change your lifestyle so overall IMO it’s worth it.

Vegeta

Very constructive Frank cheers, cool to see someone get a 360 for reasons other than just gaming

MadMoss

Ciaran500 wrote:

Just like every corporation in existence

That fact doesn't negate my point. My point still stands.

Ciaran500 wrote:

They are priced like that because they can get away with it. Its standard for any console launch, just wait it out and prices will drop with competition.

Fair point I think. However, the reason they get away with it is because they have a cosy cartel with other corporations in relation to their price control. Their market would increase if the price was lower I would say.

Ciaran500 wrote:

Microsoft were producing them as fast as they could, every new console and every must have Christmas present has this problem.

You make it sound like Microsoft really cares! We as adults know the reason why Microsoft launched the 360 in the manner they did. No spin can alter their disgraceful behaviour, what I mean is, children do not understand why they are denied a toy which is heavily advertised, targeted at them, and are led to believe is available. This point cannot be argued with in my opinion.

Ciaran500 wrote:

Once again this is standard and expected with new consoles, they take a huge hit on the console they have to get money from somewhere.

I am not sure how your point relates to my complaint regarding backwards compatibility. So I think that my backwards compatibility point still stands. I am not 100% sure that all manufactures take a hit on all consoles. Can anyone else shed more light on this?

Later.

Ciaran500

MadMoss wrote:

That fact doesn't negate my point. My point still stands.

Fair point I think. However, the reason they get away with it is because they have a cosy cartel with other corporations in relation to their price control. Their market would increase if the price was lower I would say.

The point I was making is that its the same every launch or any market where one company has a monopoly. I don't know why you are suprised Microsoft is the same.[/QUOTE]

MadMoss wrote:

You make it sound like Microsoft really cares! We as adults know the reason why Microsoft launched the 360 in the manner they did. No spin can alter their disgraceful behaviour, what I mean is, children do not understand why they are denied a toy which is heavily advertised, targeted at them, and are led to believe is available. This point cannot be argued with in my opinion.

What was disgraceful about the launch? Would it be better if no kids at all got their Xbox360 for christmas so they could build up stock for the Christmas rush.

MadMoss

Ciaran500 wrote:

The point I was making is that its the same every launch or any market where one company has a monopoly. I don't know why you are surprised Microsoft is the same.

If that was your point then fair enough, I didn't cop it from your first post. At least we both seem to agree that Microsoft don't truly care about their customers and only care about maximum profits (, along with many other corporations as you say). BTW I am not surprised that Microsoft "think" this way, l was making a valid point in a debate about the xbox and its manufacturer. You are the first person to mention "surprise"; I don't think there is any need to.

Ciaran500 wrote:

What was disgraceful about the launch? Would it be better if no kids at all got their Xbox360 for Christmas so they could build up stock for the Christmas rush.

I have answered the first question already. See above.
To the second question; yes, it would have been better if no kids at all got the xbox 360 for Christmas rather than disappointing the majority. It would have been better to delay the release until they were better prepared to meet the demand. IMO anyway. As Rev. Lovejoys wife says, “Think of the children, won’t somebody please think of the children.”

Later.

mcgovern

I am not 100% sure that all manufactures take a hit on all consoles. Can anyone else shed more light on this?

Later.

Nintendo usually don't make a loss on consoles, pretty much everyone else does afaik.