Kung Fu or Tai Chi. Classes on the Northside

Anana

Can anyone recommend somewhere where I can start learning Kung Fu or Tai Chi near Portmarnock on the northside of Dublin. I am a total beginner. Also, is Tai Chi a good exercise? good for building up strength? Thanks

kenpo_dave

You might have a look here http://www.pslc.ie/clubs.htm theres a Kenpo Karate and Tai Chi club there. And if you dont like the place Im sure the instructor might know about other clubs in the area.
Anyway, good luck in your search.

Colm_OReilly

Also, is Tai Chi a good exercise? good for building up strength?

No, Tai Chi will not build up strength. For a list of the components of fitness check out this thread.

Tai Chi probably won't build up a lot of cardiovascular or locomuscular endurance as it is generally performed at very low intensities, so unless you are quite out of shape I don't believe it will offer a lot of benefits.

Good luck with your search,
Colm

kenpo_dave

Actually Tai Chi will offer a lot of benefits. The only thing with Tai Chi is that due to the nature of the training these benefits take much longer to become apparent than with other styles. Tai Chi is a 'life-time' martial art. From what I understand about the style, in most cases it can take 10 years before you start to learn the practical applications of Tai Chi techniques. Until then the training is about developing an effortless flow of motion and of course developing the internal power.
In my opinion, Tai Chi suffers criticism as much as Tae Kwon Do. So, if you are serious about studying Tai Chi you need to make up your own mind about it, and ignore what everyone else has to say about it.

For more information on Tai Chi you could read as much as you can find on the Internet. You might also try www.ymaapub.com for books, videos and dvds.

Colm_OReilly

Dave,

The OP asked if Tai Chi was good for building up strength, and I think I showed why it won't help you in that regard and directed Anana to a thread concerning the fitness benefits of martial arts, and what fitness is all about.

I didn't say Tai Chi wouldn't offer any benefits.

Peace Out,
Colm

kenpo_dave

"so unless you are quite out of shape I don't believe it will offer a lot of benefits"

Sorry, I was responding to this line mainly.

Anana

I have heard of a guy trained in tai chi beating a judo champion in a fight. He had been doing tai chi for a few years by then.

Anana

Anana wrote:

I have heard of a guy trained in tai chi beating a judo champion in a fight. He had been doing tai chi for a few years by then.

Any more details? Doesn't sound very likely

Sure you didn't hear thai boxing/muay thai?

Cabelo

Ah now, let's be fair here. I know a lad of Hong Kongesian decent who practices Tai-Chi and he is absolutely incredible. I admit I'd have doubted the legitimacy of the scéal if I'd not known him... but having seen him get into a scuffle once he's a force to be reckoned with. Quick and efficient is what all that flow stuff builds into I reckon.

vasch_ro

Anana wrote:

I have heard of a guy trained in tai chi beating a judo champion in a fight. He had been doing tai chi for a few years by then.

There is a martial art style(as oppsoed to the health type normally taught) of Tai Chi known as Practical Tai Chi run by a guy called Dan Doherty, as far as know they enter full contact competitions
http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/

on Dan the man from the above site
Dan Docherty was born in Glasgow, Scotland, in 1954. He graduated LL.B in 1974. He served as an inspector in the Royal Hong Kong Police Force from 1975 - 84. He has been training in Tai Chi Chuan under Cheng Tin-hung since 1975.

He has represented Hong Kong in Full-contact Fighting, in 1980 winning the Open Weight Division at the 5th South East Asian Chinese Pugilistic Championships in Malaysia.

hope this helps, they teach practical Tao Chi in UCD as far as I know
which although not north side is easy to get to.

Clive

Just returned from the 2005 IMAF & PWKA World Cup in Milan. 3 of us headed over from Ireland, in our respected categories we faced opponents from the UK, France, Switzerland, Spain, Italy, Moldova, Russia, Norway, U.S.A., China, Taiwan, India, Azerbaijan, Morocco, Argentina, Brazil and Peru. 3 Days of competition with over 450 competitors, representing 67 countries.

Paul Allen competing in Shuai Chaoi (Chinese Wrestling) was unlucky enough to be knocked out early on, in a deciding round due to a penalty point.

For myself I fought through the preliminary rounds and reached the final day and the semi final of the -85kg pro-San Da event (professional Chinese kickboxing), ended up 4th over all.

But the man of the hour is my coach Paul Mitchell who received Gold in the Shuai Chaoi event; by the way he did this without conceding a single point in the final!!!!

A good week for Ireland!

Niall Keane

MMA fighter Sami Berick also trains in the same style.

pma-ire

vasch_ro wrote:

There is a martial art style(as oppsoed to the health type normally taught) of Tai Chi known as Practical Tai Chi run by a guy called Dan Doherty, as far as know they enter full contact competitions
http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/

on Dan the man from the above site
Dan Docherty was born in Glasgow, Scotland, in 1954. He graduated LL.B in 1974. He served as an inspector in the Royal Hong Kong Police Force from 1975 - 84. He has been training in Tai Chi Chuan under Cheng Tin-hung since 1975.

He has represented Hong Kong in Full-contact Fighting, in 1980 winning the Open Weight Division at the 5th South East Asian Chinese Pugilistic Championships in Malaysia.

hope this helps, they teach practical Tao Chi in UCD as far as I know
which although not north side is easy to get to.

I think that the group in McCurtain Street in Cork are with Dan? They are linked to John Ding also? Or had been?? I hav'int seen or heard anything about them in a while??

Niall Keane

Anana,
There is a Practical Tai Chi Chuan class run by Clare Sheehy in UCD between 8 and 10pm on Wednesday nights. I give a class myself, but it’s in Churchtown. Here’s the link:
http://www.freewebs.com/sanshou

Some myths and misinformation about Tai Chi Chuan you’ll probably come across:

• “It takes 10 years of practice before learning applications”, if you hear this then your instructor doesn’t know them.
• “Tai chi chuan is all about softness and yielding.” Tai chi is the name of the yin-yang symbol, so we’re talking yin-yang boxing, both hard and soft, all soft yin training with no yang training leaves you with what the Chinese call “tu fu chuan” bean curd boxing. With techniques in the form such as “break arm style” and “parry and punch” clearly it is necessary to have the power to do so.
• “Tai Chi Chuan consists of only the hand form and chi gung.” Traditionally there are 5 aspects to the practice: The hand form. The weapon forms. Tui shou – 8 major sets of drills practicing martial movements and strategies also in free style we are basically practicing stand-up wrestling. Nei Gung - a set of 24 exercises practiced to develop what we could call muscle memory, training yourself how to move with correct structure and with aliveness and efficiency, these exercises also allow you to build up the ability to receive a fair amount of force, traditionally after 100 days the practitioner undergoes a test where someone jumps from a height of 6 feet on to his abdomen 3 times. San shou - this means scattering arms, i.e. self defense, in other words practicing applications and sparring.

Colm,
I can understand the usually negative opinion towards Tai chi Chuan’s martial benefits as most “players” who claim to teach it couldn’t deal with an attack even if you told them the limb you would use and when you would strike. These guys are basically playing boxercise. Now don’t you think it would be a little unfair to announce that western boxing was rubbish just because you’re understanding of it came through watching some middle aged women trying to shed a few pounds?

As for building up strength and power, I have regularly beaten opponents at international level competition in both wrestling and kickboxing who have out weighed me by over two stone. My ego might certainly like to believe that it comes down simply to superior skills, but clearly a degree of strength and power might be needed what do you think?

“The OP asked if Tai Chi was good for building up strength, and I think I showed why it won't help you in that regard”

What complete Tai Chi Chuan system have you mastered that you can make such a sweeping statement?
Personally over the past 7 years I have competed internationally I have met both good and bad fighters from too many different styles to remember and I’m a little too long in the tooth to believe that everyone who practices BJJ is on par with the Gracies, although for many that seems to be the selling point. What was it Mao said?, oh, yea “no evidence, no right to speak!”

Happy New Year man, and to the rest of yis!
Niall

kenpo_dave

"it can take 10 years before you start to learn the practical applications of Tai Chi techniques"

Looking at it now I think I was kinda stupid to say that. Im going to drop out of this discussion as my experience and knowledge of Tai Chi is very limited.

Happy New Year everyone!!

Anana

Thanks everyone for all the information. It's been a real help. I appreciate it.:)

Colm_OReilly

Colm,
I can understand the usually negative opinion towards Tai chi Chuan’s martial benefits as most “players” who claim to teach it couldn’t deal with an attack even if you told them the limb you would use and when you would strike. These guys are basically playing boxercise. Now don’t you think it would be a little unfair to announce that western boxing was rubbish just because you’re understanding of it came through watching some middle aged women trying to shed a few pounds?

Yes, yes it would be unfair, but that's not the point of discussion here.

As for building up strength and power, I have regularly beaten opponents at international level competition in both wrestling and kickboxing who have out weighed me by over two stone. My ego might certainly like to believe that it comes down simply to superior skills, but clearly a degree of strength and power might be needed what do you think?

Yes, in any combative or athletic endeavour, attributes do contirbute to the success of a practitioner. However, again that wasn't the point of discussion.

What complete Tai Chi Chuan system have you mastered that you can make such a sweeping statement?
Personally over the past 7 years I have competed internationally I have met both good and bad fighters from too many different styles to remember and I’m a little too long in the tooth to believe that everyone who practices BJJ is on par with the Gracies, although for many that seems to be the selling point. What was it Mao said?, oh, yea “no evidence, no right to speak!”

To address the selling point issue, an athletic club can advertise to children that they could be just like Seb Coe, so I can't see your beff with the point of some BJJ clubs alluding to the Gracies in their advertising.

I don't have to master Tai Chi to be able to examine it, I'm educated and experienced enough in sport and exercise to understand the benefits of an activity by observation.

Firstly let me say that any sort of activity will have knock on effects to all the areas of fitness. In order to build strength, you have to apply a certain amount of resistance to the muscles to have the appropriate response. Cardio work, be it low level or high intensity, does not directly produce these results, they work on the locomuscular and cardiovascular endurance and output abilities.

An activity such as martial arts can have a knock on effects on strength, but the primary fitness effect they'll have will be on locomuscular endurance.

Peace Out,
Colm

Niall Keane

Colm,

Original question:
“Is Tai Chi a good exercise? good for building up strength?”

Your response:
“No, Tai Chi will not build up strength.”

Mine:
“I can understand the usually negative opinion towards Tai chi Chuan’s martial benefits as most “players” who claim to teach it couldn’t deal with an attack even if you told them the limb you would use and when you would strike. These guys are basically playing boxercise. Now don’t you think it would be a little unfair to announce that western boxing was rubbish just because you understand of it came through watching some middle aged women trying to shed a few pounds?”

Yours:
“Yes, yes it would be unfair, but that's not the point of discussion here.”

Really, show me a competent martial artist without strength? Are you seriously suggesting that Tai chi neglects this requirement?

Quote:
“Yes, in any combative or athletic endeavour, attributes do contribute to the success of a practitioner. However, again that wasn't the point of discussion.”

My point exactly, which is that although skill is a factor, it is an acquired attribute born of experience, in order to compete a basic training would necessitate strength, fitness and power training.

“I don't have to master Tai Chi to be able to examine it, I'm educated and experienced enough in sport and exercise to understand the benefits of an activity by observation.”

So you’ve checked out and/ or trained with serious tai chi fighters? Funny that I haven’t trained with you or seen you observe a class, nor has Paul Mitchell, nor have any of our students, as I’ve already mentioned I’ve been in international competition in San Shou, San Da, Tui Shou and Shuai Jaoi for the past 7 years, Paul since 1992, I know every Irish competitor and you haven’t trained with us so where is the educated observation coming from? Or have you just seen public/ health tai chi in a park and decided as I have afore mentioned that Boxercise created Muhammad Ali?

Quote:
”Firstly let me say that any sort of activity will have knocked on effects to all the areas of fitness. In order to build strength, you have to apply a certain amount of resistance to the muscles to have the appropriate response. Cardio work, be it low level or high intensity, does not directly produce these results, they work on the locomuscular and cardiovascular endurance and output abilities.”

Wow man, you really believe that you know everything about Tai Chi Chuan and its syllabus. I have no argument about the science, and believe me Tai Ch Chuan incorporates it, my point stems from the fact that you believe that a complete tai chi chuan syllabus lacks certain fitness/ power elements. Your opinion has arrived from hearsay, I guess Tai Chi Chuan is generally a soft target, and due to the new age rubbish I can understand your misunderstanding, but although Practical Tai Chi Chuan Ireland have produced European and World champions which other posters on this forum have made you aware of, although I myself am ranked in the top 5 in the world in IMAF and PWKA pro San Da, you are seriously announcing here that basically Tai Chi doesn’t work without ever having trained in it, that’s kinda weird? You’d never catch me commenting on the BJJ syllabus, why because I acknowledge that I don’t know the first thing about it.
My point about the Gracies and BJJ is simply that I believe that fighters and not styles make fights. For example take Muay Thai: I have fought a Grevicious who trained with Vipers/ Fitness First, a Nash who trained with Peacock and Vos, a Shwardner (not sure on the spelling) who fought out of a gym in Milan and 2 other hard hittin bast—ds from Zurich can’t remember their names (that’s how hard they hit ‘_’), some of them I destroyed, one without conceding a point, another managed to (I found out afterwards) break my cheek bone. In my opinion as their opponent so I guess I should know, they were entirely different fighters, sure they all fought with round houses, push kicks and punching combos, and all lacked a sharp grappling attitude, some however had obviously practiced countering throws whereas other hadn’t. Some were prepared for and were hungry to win San Da competitions, others weren’t. That’s my point! Anyone who’s fought at international level knows this, style is irrelevant, we all practice for the same competition, and it is the attitude, intent and training of the fighter that is paramount!
Practical Tai Chi Chuan has consistently proved its reputation; our fight record speaks for itself, not hearsay? Yet people continually preach to us individually about the folly of practicing Tai Chi Chuan, of course these are people who’ve never seen us compete or been our opponents. I have to say thanks because it only makes us hungrier.

All the best,
Niall

patjunfa

I'd be interested to hear more of Tai Chi in relation to Sanshou. I've done some Tai Chi, and know friends who are well into it. I know it can be used effectively in combat application, but I didn't know it could be used much in competition like Sanshou. I can Imagine abilitys learned from Tai Chi would help, being able to ground , generally flow and redirect force.
However to compete in Sanshou you will need skills more associated with kickboxing and judo. How to take hits on a closed gaurd, some body conditioning, breakfalls and throws, general kicking and boxing ability, bobing and weaving etc
While I know Tai Chi can be practical, I've not heard of this being part of TaiChi Syllabus. Is TaiChi your only or main training for such events? Do you incorperate some padwork and elements not traditionally considered part of TaiChi? Essentially how much of "other" training do you have to include to compete in these events.
Well done to:)

Colm_OReilly

Niall,

a few questions:

What do you define as strength?

When did I argue regarding the practicality of Tai Chi in a fighting environment? I believe you'll find my posts addressed the strength related components of practicing Tai Chi or any martial art.

As for the rest of your post, I never mentioned Tai Chi in a combatitive environment nor did I ask for a list of your achievements/credentials. Without sounding patronising you appeared to take a very personal view over what I said.

Colm

Dave Joyce

Without sounding patronising you appeared to take a very personal view over what I said

If I can butt in here for a second, I'd hardly blame Niall for taking it personally
when Colm you were making a lot of carte blanche comments that were totally dismissive of Taiji. Dan Doherty and his guys have been to the forefront (in many ways lol!) in tackling the many untruths relating to Taiji over the years and more power to them!

"the strength related components of practicing Tai Chi or any martial art".

Well for one thing theres pushing hands practise/competition and then theres the internal strenght training/benefits. However, I suppose its "uncool" or unreal to think that there can be an internal benefit to this type of training. Feck it, who needs balence or an improved immune system in their life anyway!!


IMHO there are 3 types of Taiji, the new age crap where most "instructors":p (and I use that term loosely) know sweet FA and can barely pass on the form and only concentrate on the "yin" side of training, the guys who know the long form (barely) and don't have an instructor/the ability to teach any of the other aspects of the art, such as grounding, pushing hands, applications etc and then you have the guys (like Niall and the guys in PTCC who some of my students have fought many years ago AND they CAN walk the walk:eek: ) who do the WHOLE art including competing. To me Taiji is probley the most mis-understood/mis-quoted martial art out there. Personally I would still love to be training in Taiji, but when I was teaching Gong Fu very few of my (much younger) students wanted to do internal training and prefered the external styles of Longfist/White Crane. Now I'm so snowed under I don't have the time to train in it:mad:

kenpo_dave

"students wanted to do internal training and prefered the external styles of Longfist/White Crane"

Dave if youre talking about Shaolin White Crane, it is internal.

pma-ire

Dave Joyce wrote:

Now I'm so snowed under I don't have the time to train in it:mad:

Something to do when you get old and useless

Must be nice to have something to look forward to

Niall,

Really interesting posts on TaiChi!

Colm_OReilly

Dave,

I was talking purely on the strength, as a function of the ability of the body's "external" muscles to do work. I don't know about the internal benefits of a style but I'll say this: there really is no bad exercise, there are exercises that are performed badly that can injure the body, and there are exercises which will better help people achieve the objective at hand.

Firstly I can really understand Niall getting annoyed at people typecasting TaiChi people as hippy crystal hugging beardies and having seen Niall train in UCD and seen San Da and San shou before I have a lot of respect for these combat athletes.

I think Colm's POV is referring to the pursuit of strength development through martial arts and I think that Colm was saying (or trying to say) that most forms of Tai Chi like most martial arts arent great specifically for fitness. Also I believe that Colm was referring to the most common style of Tai Chi learning rather than, certainly in my eyes, the less common sparring involved styles. Again loose language probably didnt help.

So...getting back to the OPs question...

Fall in with some athletes and competitors like Niall and you'll find Tai Chi great for fitness/strength building. However be warned that this is not the case for many Tai Chi classes. Therefore if you really wanna get strong and fit then train with Niall and compete.

Tim_Murphy

I don't know much about tai chi.

Do you guys spend much time doing the forms when you are training for san shou competitions?

Dave Joyce

Granted Colm and I agree with most of your last post but I remember Master Yang Jwing Ming saying that a lot of people who train exclusively external CAN be very weak internally, so although they look the part, they can be suffering with lots of different ailments eg from my own and some of my fighters experiences your immune system can be crap when you're extremely fit, although you look AND feel great. Whereas it is possible to do internal strenght training (which Niall touched upon) and some people (and NO I don't mean the cliched overweight and under training types) may not look very impressive to the western eye (not cut or ripped, carrying a bit of weight) but CAN have far better overall health because their training emphasises internal training. I can't vouch for Niall but I know practising Taiji/Qigong while training for Thai fights worked really well for me, keeping me focused and very relaxed particularly in the lead up to events.

Anana

I know I am interrupting the tai chi debate, but I just remembered myself that my original question had been about tai chi and kung fu.

Are there places on the Northside that teach Kung Fu?

kenpo_dave

Theres a Kung Fu club in DCU but I dont know if they accpet non students

http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~kungfu/

paul moran

Dave if youre talking about Shaolin White Crane, it is internal.

Sorry Kenpo Dave,

I beg to differ, some of the aspects of Whitecrane "Qigong" can be internal but Shaolin Whitecrane is considered an External Martial Art!!!

Regards,
Paul

Michael O Leary

Anana wrote:

I know I am interrupting the tai chi debate, but I just remembered myself that my original question had been about tai chi and kung fu.

Are there places on the Northside that teach Kung Fu?

Hi Anana,

If Blanchardstown is not to far for you to travel you could have a look at the thread "clubs in Castleknock/Clonsilla". I teach a type of Kung-Fu called Wing Tsun there and you will get a lot of information on the above mentioned thread.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

patjunfa

"Kung Fu


I know I am interrupting the tai chi debate, but I just remembered myself that my original question had been about tai chi and kung fu.

Are there places on the Northside that teach Kung Fu?"


If Raheny's close to you, I teach a Kung Fu system called "Ching Wu" on Mon and Wed nights

For details call me on 0861675034