Timber Frames

PoolDude

Also building garage, any thoughts on whether that should be TF or Block?

yop

Cannot understand how it is considerably cheaper. how much exactly?

I presume they are putting insulation in this block house, in the long run this is where ur savings will be.

PoolDude

About 25k.

Block build will have:
60mm foil-backed insulation in the external cavity,
6” insulation between ground and 1st floor,
12” insulation to attic, and 4” insulation to the walls on the 1st floor. 18mm plywood underneath the floorboards of the 1st floor.

Macy

PoolDude wrote:

About 25k.

That's interesting, as we put our's out to tender with about 15 companies. The cheapest block quote was 10k more than the most expensive timber frame (which was about 15k more than the winner).

Like everyone says, the build time is the main thing with timber frame. Went up unbelievably quick, and in the end it was us who caused a delay in moving in as we weren't ready with the deviner/well/pump.

Only sound problem we have is where the shower backs on to another bedroom - if we were doing it again we'd move it to the external wall. Don't notice it with other rooms at all - including the utility (and washing machine and dryer) being next to the sitting room.

As has been said, major thing is the heat. Heats up really quickly compared to any block built houses I've lived in. You notice a difference in minutes. And it retains the heat too.

CJhaughey

The concrete industry has funded an anti-timberframe drive for the last few years and this I believe is primarily due to the fact that many concrete houses are substandard and will find it very difficult to meet the new EPBD.
There is nothing inherently wrong with block construction it is how it is constructed that is the important thing.
a Timberframe house is a proven house in many other countries that are as cold and wet as here such as Scotland.
I think that if you ask any opinions about timberframe houses here most owners would be positive with regard to the heating qualities and speed of erection.
With the EU directive supposed to be implemented as of Jan 1st 2006 It may be wise to look at the future energy costs of your proposed dwelling, with a view to resale.

YAPP

Garage:
We are opting for a TF garage.
Nobody likes working in a cold garage.
Problem is that a sturdy wall is essential, robust to take the hit of a flying hammer. - proposal is :
Insulate and Slab the TF for fire rating and then,
fit 18mm ply on int surface - robust and tool friendly - any ideas on this???

Concrete Built?
as CJ says, block build uses insulation outside the home leaf (inside leaf), and with the best will in the world a blocklayer will not get the Insul tight (air-tight) to the block, meaning that cold air in the cavity can get in behind the insulation and leave the block cold....!!! Just not a good system - no site quality ever imposed...!
Where as TF is fabricated in the companies controlled environment and walls are square and true, checked and straight. Insulation is fitted IN the dry stud wall and safe and dry giving the 6" insul a much better performance than the 2" aeroboard in the cold block cavity!!!! Draws its own picture, eh!

Speed:
Bear this is mind:
Scaffold is reqd for much less time for TF than block build!!!
Scaffold costs E300 to E700 /wk depending on size and nature of home/roof. This can be the differ of E3000 to maybe E6000 which says alot - cost a kitchen and curtains & carpets....! We had scaffold in place for 5 weeks. Our block layer (who did the ext leaf) reckoned that we'd need it for at least 10-12 weeks if we'd gone block...!! Such simple items that costs a fortune that people dont consider...!

S

PoolDude

Still not a 25k difference??

Ginger83

I am eager to hear how you come to 25k of a saving overall on the build. What size is the house? Are you comparing similar finishes to both types?
The main advantage I can see with a tf home is the heating time (and savings) and the ability of the house retaining that heat, together with the speed of erection it has to be worth its weight in gold. Consider the rising price of oil and the amount you will be pumping into this gaf over the next x years.

PoolDude

House is 2700 sq ft and the items included in both quotes from the builder are the same except for TF shell v Block and insulation differences for both:

TF:
140mm Acoustic Insulation for External Walls
300mm Fibreglass for Attic
No internal wall insulation quoted (add max 5k)

Block:
60mm foil-backed insulation in the external cavity,
6” insulation between ground and 1st floor,
12” insulation to attic
4” insulation to the walls on the 1st floor.
18mm plywood underneath the floorboards of the 1st floor.

Builders quote for TF excluding Kit is 23k less than block.
Kit cost in 48k, Net difference is 25k (48 - 23)

kadman

PoolDude wrote:

I am currently getting quotes from builders on a house I plan to build in the SE. I have access to the Timber Frame kit at a discounted price but based on the prices I have received from 2 reputable builders a block built house is substantially cheaper.

I've looked at www.irishconcrete.ie that gives a compelling argument in favour of block but the TF person who is giving me the deal on the kit and is a good friend is adamant TF is worth the extra cost (they're is nothing in for them).

I also cannot get over the price differences from builder to builder, up to €60k, although I have yet to get an apples with apples comparison.

I'm getting towards decision making time and would appreciate input as to whether TF is worth the significant additional cost over block build?

Of course you could go for the block build, and spend the 25k on internal tf insulated panels on the external walls. Gives you the solid construction of block work, coupled with the heat benefits of tf.;)


kadman:)

Victor

PoolDude wrote:

I also cannot get over the price differences from builder to builder, up to €60k, although I have yet to get an apples with apples comparison.

Perfectly normal.

chicken_food

Check out a company called balcas. I know for a fact they do timber frames and have a specialist 'in house' that can help you out. They are a saw mill,do skirting boards,doors etc-so you'd be buying direct from the supplier.They are based in kill,naas. hope its of some use to you.

RedLady

Hi,

We are thinking of going TF after getting some very expensive quotes from builders for block house - average 240 k for builders finish. It looks like TF kit will cost around 70k to supply and errect.One of the reasons we are thinking of going Timber Frame is for speed of erection and eventually completion - thinking that it would take 10 months to move in from start date.
If we went down the traditional concrete direct labour, how long would it take - anybody experiences of doing either would be welcomed.
The one thing that I am worried about is noise? We were going to put in hollow core into the block built house. What similar alternative could we use for a TF house.

Regards

yop

Redlady - We have a TF, I put in 100mm rockwool insulation in all internal walls, and 150mm rockwool to all external.
I also put fibreglass between the ceiling joists on the ground and 1st floor.

I then put a 25mm concrete on 25mm of insulation on the OSB on the 1st floor, this has given us an excellent level of sound insulation, BUT you have to inform your TF company of this as they need to know the finished floor height and take into account extra stress levels.

Gluck with it

PoolDude

I am going block build in the end. Over 40k cheaper than TF when I include the cost of the garage. We are using 60mm kingspan foil backed insulation in the external cavity, 6” insulation between ground and 1st floor, 12” insulation to attic, and 4” insulation to the walls on the 1st floor. 18mm plywood underneath the floorboards of the 1st floor will be used for extra soundproofing it provides.

He has also committed to completing it in 30 weeks once he starts next month (he was actually ready to go next week but I'm not) and a fixed price.

He was one of the last builders I contacted yet managed to come back with pricing quickly and responded to every e-mail ahead of when he committed (he's tell me Thursday and then Wednesday night text me to say he had sent me an e-mail)

Some of my family have their own businesses and have also worked with his company and rate him highly, only time will tell but he seems very professional so far.

RedLady

Thanks Yop. I'll ask them about this. Giving up the hollow core on the first floor is one of the biggest disadvantages for me in going for TF over block. It would be great if this was an alternative.
I know that you were putting in UFH - did you put it in the first floor as well?

yop

Redlady - yip UFH on both floors. 50mm batten screwed to the OSB, then the 25mm cut and put between them, then pipes then concrete.

YAPP

Fit a 'Compartment Floor' in your timber frame if you have noise worries....

Detail From Top down,
1. Floor covering as noraml (tile/hardwood/carpet/etc,.)
2. 18mm T&G Plywood Sheathing in 8'x4'
3. 19mm Plank Plasterboard screwed down to
4. accoustic battens (2"x2" with foam on undernerath in one piece) glued to
5. accoustic matting sponge layer on
6. 18mm Plywood Flooring nailled to
7. 9"x2" Floor joisting (as normal) filled with
8. 100mm Fiberglass insulation inbetween joists, then
9. 19mm plank plasterboard covered with
10. 1/2" plasterboard with 3mm skim applied to.

This gives better sound reduction than a 150mm hollowcore slab and provides 60min+ resistance to fire spread.

TF Company will normally supply all items for you!!!

S

RedLady

Hi,

Thanks for the post also Yapp. Can I use UFH with type of flooring?

Regards

simonvd

Hi,
I am currently doing an F.Y.P (final year project) on the Difference between timber frame construction between the United States and Ireland. I know that nearly all of the U.S use timber framing construction, and I just wanted to know if there is much difference between there methods and Ireland's methods.
Regard,
Simon

Victor

simonvd wrote: »

Hi,
I am currently doing an F.Y.P (final year project) on the Difference between timber frame construction between the United States and Ireland. I know that nearly all of the U.S use timber framing construction, and I just wanted to know if there is much difference between there methods and Ireland's methods.
Regard,
Simon

The tradition is much longer there.

One thing would be that in the USA, basements are much more popular than here. Quite a few buildings have even retro-fitted with basements, by jacking up the existing house.

Timber is used much more a cladding material there.

In some areas, snow loads can be considerable (5 metres or more of snow), while in others hurricanes (say goodbye to your house) and / or flooding need to be taken into account.

Fire proofing standards will vary, depending on the size of the building and whether it is attached or detached.

Of course, in a country the size of the USA, standards will vary, possibly hugely.