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Timber Frames

Ginger83

Hi, I have heard there are many advantages with building timber framed homes. Would it be worth looking into and could anyone recommend a good company?

Also, we are applying for a local needs pp in the north east area but only one of us is from the area. Would there be any drawbacks applying in one parties name? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

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Victor

simonvd wrote: »

Hi,
I am currently doing an F.Y.P (final year project) on the Difference between timber frame construction between the United States and Ireland. I know that nearly all of the U.S use timber framing construction, and I just wanted to know if there is much difference between there methods and Ireland's methods.
Regard,
Simon

The tradition is much longer there.

One thing would be that in the USA, basements are much more popular than here. Quite a few buildings have even retro-fitted with basements, by jacking up the existing house.

Timber is used much more a cladding material there.

In some areas, snow loads can be considerable (5 metres or more of snow), while in others hurricanes (say goodbye to your house) and / or flooding need to be taken into account.

Fire proofing standards will vary, depending on the size of the building and whether it is attached or detached.

Of course, in a country the size of the USA, standards will vary, possibly hugely.

simonvd

Hi,
I am currently doing an F.Y.P (final year project) on the Difference between timber frame construction between the United States and Ireland. I know that nearly all of the U.S use timber framing construction, and I just wanted to know if there is much difference between there methods and Ireland's methods.
Regard,
Simon

RedLady

Hi,

Thanks for the post also Yapp. Can I use UFH with type of flooring?

Regards

YAPP

Fit a 'Compartment Floor' in your timber frame if you have noise worries....

Detail From Top down,
1. Floor covering as noraml (tile/hardwood/carpet/etc,.)
2. 18mm T&G Plywood Sheathing in 8'x4'
3. 19mm Plank Plasterboard screwed down to
4. accoustic battens (2"x2" with foam on undernerath in one piece) glued to
5. accoustic matting sponge layer on
6. 18mm Plywood Flooring nailled to
7. 9"x2" Floor joisting (as normal) filled with
8. 100mm Fiberglass insulation inbetween joists, then
9. 19mm plank plasterboard covered with
10. 1/2" plasterboard with 3mm skim applied to.

This gives better sound reduction than a 150mm hollowcore slab and provides 60min+ resistance to fire spread.

TF Company will normally supply all items for you!!!

S

yop

Redlady - yip UFH on both floors. 50mm batten screwed to the OSB, then the 25mm cut and put between them, then pipes then concrete.

RedLady

Thanks Yop. I'll ask them about this. Giving up the hollow core on the first floor is one of the biggest disadvantages for me in going for TF over block. It would be great if this was an alternative.
I know that you were putting in UFH - did you put it in the first floor as well?

PoolDude

I am going block build in the end. Over 40k cheaper than TF when I include the cost of the garage. We are using 60mm kingspan foil backed insulation in the external cavity, 6” insulation between ground and 1st floor, 12” insulation to attic, and 4” insulation to the walls on the 1st floor. 18mm plywood underneath the floorboards of the 1st floor will be used for extra soundproofing it provides.

He has also committed to completing it in 30 weeks once he starts next month (he was actually ready to go next week but I'm not) and a fixed price.

He was one of the last builders I contacted yet managed to come back with pricing quickly and responded to every e-mail ahead of when he committed (he's tell me Thursday and then Wednesday night text me to say he had sent me an e-mail)

Some of my family have their own businesses and have also worked with his company and rate him highly, only time will tell but he seems very professional so far.

yop

Redlady - We have a TF, I put in 100mm rockwool insulation in all internal walls, and 150mm rockwool to all external.
I also put fibreglass between the ceiling joists on the ground and 1st floor.

I then put a 25mm concrete on 25mm of insulation on the OSB on the 1st floor, this has given us an excellent level of sound insulation, BUT you have to inform your TF company of this as they need to know the finished floor height and take into account extra stress levels.

Gluck with it

RedLady

Hi,

We are thinking of going TF after getting some very expensive quotes from builders for block house - average 240 k for builders finish. It looks like TF kit will cost around 70k to supply and errect.One of the reasons we are thinking of going Timber Frame is for speed of erection and eventually completion - thinking that it would take 10 months to move in from start date.
If we went down the traditional concrete direct labour, how long would it take - anybody experiences of doing either would be welcomed.
The one thing that I am worried about is noise? We were going to put in hollow core into the block built house. What similar alternative could we use for a TF house.

Regards

chicken_food

Check out a company called balcas. I know for a fact they do timber frames and have a specialist 'in house' that can help you out. They are a saw mill,do skirting boards,doors etc-so you'd be buying direct from the supplier.They are based in kill,naas. hope its of some use to you.

Victor

PoolDude wrote:

I also cannot get over the price differences from builder to builder, up to €60k, although I have yet to get an apples with apples comparison.

Perfectly normal.

kadman

PoolDude wrote:

I am currently getting quotes from builders on a house I plan to build in the SE. I have access to the Timber Frame kit at a discounted price but based on the prices I have received from 2 reputable builders a block built house is substantially cheaper.

I've looked at www.irishconcrete.ie that gives a compelling argument in favour of block but the TF person who is giving me the deal on the kit and is a good friend is adamant TF is worth the extra cost (they're is nothing in for them).

I also cannot get over the price differences from builder to builder, up to €60k, although I have yet to get an apples with apples comparison.

I'm getting towards decision making time and would appreciate input as to whether TF is worth the significant additional cost over block build?

Of course you could go for the block build, and spend the 25k on internal tf insulated panels on the external walls. Gives you the solid construction of block work, coupled with the heat benefits of tf.;)

kadman:)

PoolDude

House is 2700 sq ft and the items included in both quotes from the builder are the same except for TF shell v Block and insulation differences for both:

TF:
140mm Acoustic Insulation for External Walls
300mm Fibreglass for Attic
No internal wall insulation quoted (add max 5k)

Block:
60mm foil-backed insulation in the external cavity,
6” insulation between ground and 1st floor,
12” insulation to attic
4” insulation to the walls on the 1st floor.
18mm plywood underneath the floorboards of the 1st floor.

Builders quote for TF excluding Kit is 23k less than block.
Kit cost in 48k, Net difference is 25k (48 - 23)

Ginger83

I am eager to hear how you come to 25k of a saving overall on the build. What size is the house? Are you comparing similar finishes to both types?
The main advantage I can see with a tf home is the heating time (and savings) and the ability of the house retaining that heat, together with the speed of erection it has to be worth its weight in gold. Consider the rising price of oil and the amount you will be pumping into this gaf over the next x years.

PoolDude

Still not a 25k difference??

YAPP

Garage:
We are opting for a TF garage.
Nobody likes working in a cold garage.
Problem is that a sturdy wall is essential, robust to take the hit of a flying hammer. - proposal is :
Insulate and Slab the TF for fire rating and then,
fit 18mm ply on int surface - robust and tool friendly - any ideas on this???

Concrete Built?
as CJ says, block build uses insulation outside the home leaf (inside leaf), and with the best will in the world a blocklayer will not get the Insul tight (air-tight) to the block, meaning that cold air in the cavity can get in behind the insulation and leave the block cold....!!! Just not a good system - no site quality ever imposed...!
Where as TF is fabricated in the companies controlled environment and walls are square and true, checked and straight. Insulation is fitted IN the dry stud wall and safe and dry giving the 6" insul a much better performance than the 2" aeroboard in the cold block cavity!!!! Draws its own picture, eh!

Speed:
Bear this is mind:
Scaffold is reqd for much less time for TF than block build!!!
Scaffold costs E300 to E700 /wk depending on size and nature of home/roof. This can be the differ of E3000 to maybe E6000 which says alot - cost a kitchen and curtains & carpets....! We had scaffold in place for 5 weeks. Our block layer (who did the ext leaf) reckoned that we'd need it for at least 10-12 weeks if we'd gone block...!! Such simple items that costs a fortune that people dont consider...!

S

CJhaughey

The concrete industry has funded an anti-timberframe drive for the last few years and this I believe is primarily due to the fact that many concrete houses are substandard and will find it very difficult to meet the new EPBD.
There is nothing inherently wrong with block construction it is how it is constructed that is the important thing.
a Timberframe house is a proven house in many other countries that are as cold and wet as here such as Scotland.
I think that if you ask any opinions about timberframe houses here most owners would be positive with regard to the heating qualities and speed of erection.
With the EU directive supposed to be implemented as of Jan 1st 2006 It may be wise to look at the future energy costs of your proposed dwelling, with a view to resale.

Macy

PoolDude wrote:

About 25k.

That's interesting, as we put our's out to tender with about 15 companies. The cheapest block quote was 10k more than the most expensive timber frame (which was about 15k more than the winner).

Like everyone says, the build time is the main thing with timber frame. Went up unbelievably quick, and in the end it was us who caused a delay in moving in as we weren't ready with the deviner/well/pump.

Only sound problem we have is where the shower backs on to another bedroom - if we were doing it again we'd move it to the external wall. Don't notice it with other rooms at all - including the utility (and washing machine and dryer) being next to the sitting room.

As has been said, major thing is the heat. Heats up really quickly compared to any block built houses I've lived in. You notice a difference in minutes. And it retains the heat too.

PoolDude

About 25k.

Block build will have:
60mm foil-backed insulation in the external cavity,
6” insulation between ground and 1st floor,
12” insulation to attic, and 4” insulation to the walls on the 1st floor. 18mm plywood underneath the floorboards of the 1st floor.

yop

Cannot understand how it is considerably cheaper. how much exactly?

I presume they are putting insulation in this block house, in the long run this is where ur savings will be.

PoolDude

Also building garage, any thoughts on whether that should be TF or Block?

PoolDude

I am currently getting quotes from builders on a house I plan to build in the SE. I have access to the Timber Frame kit at a discounted price but based on the prices I have received from 2 reputable builders a block built house is substantially cheaper.

I've looked at www.irishconcrete.ie that gives a compelling argument in favour of block but the TF person who is giving me the deal on the kit and is a good friend is adamant TF is worth the extra cost (they're is nothing in for them).

I also cannot get over the price differences from builder to builder, up to €60k, although I have yet to get an apples with apples comparison.

I'm getting towards decision making time and would appreciate input as to whether TF is worth the significant additional cost over block build?

YAPP

Framing Timber Section sizing
being used by current NSAI Approved Companies in Ireland that
I can see are standard as follows:
89x38mm for Internal and
140x38mm For External Panels.
600mm c/c pass for majority, but some companies
recommend 400mm c/c, as do I.
We got 400mm c/c for both Internal & External Panels - Great sturdy
construction!!!

Victor:
Lead time for a block layer would be at least 4-7 weeks at the moment, or so I'm told,
and Lead in time from TF co is 4 to 6 weeks... SO I dont think that theres much of a difference, however at wk 7 or 8 when the Erectors are finished you have alot more on site to work with for your follow on trades (sparks, etc); roof up, felted & lathed, windows ready to go in.....
than you'd have when the brickies are finished and cleaned up...!!!
TF definately faster (depending on how you manage you build!)

Rockwool:
Far greater sound properties, but same thermal properties as Fibreglass.
We used 150mm FG in ext, 100mm Rockwool to internals and 200mm FG to attic. - Only way to satisfy yourselves is to experiment in a real finished TF and you'll see for your self - way to go!

Next project is looking like Sheepwool Insulation:
... slightly more expensive, but easier to work with and extra eco brownie points.

Q.
Has anyone ever heard of a Lobby Group to tackle the Govt for Grants for use of ecological building systems like they have in the Norht of Ireland?????

S

Victor

I think what the amateurs (no offence intended) are missing and the professionals aren't necessarily pointing out on this thread is that timber framed houses are an engineered product. They are designed to normal standards. Taking away from one part of that engineered designed, while not affecting that part, may affect another part - adversely.

kadman

Thank you for the link.

I have been unable to find any other reference to 3x2 on that site, other than in that paragraph.

I have checked through out, but came up with nothing. Indeed any reference to wall panels was concerned with the externals at 145x45. I have checked through their technical manual, and found no other refernce to 3x2. Even their sections ( which i have attached ) , show no sections of the break down of their internal panels.

In fairness , I may still be suffering from the after effects of the chrimbo, and may not have been as thorough as I could have. So if you have any other ref, please post.

Their construction would not be regarded as the norm, as far as peoples concept of a timber frame build in Ireland. It would be nearer to a chalet type construction, and by the sites own documentation, does have its limitations. Lighter section timbers like 3x2 is more prone to distortion, twisting ect, and due regard has to be given to this consideration. It is not the same as a standard tf build, in terms of its external plasterboard / timber cladding finish. As opposed to the norm of brick or block veneer, that people are used to.

I cannot imagine that the soundproofing, or running of services in a 3x2 stud would compare with a 95x45 or 145x45, but as I was unable to get a section through their internal stud ( 3x2 ) arrangement, I cant say anymore on it.

I accept that there is a reference to 3x2 for studwork on their site. But I am confused why I could not find any technical reference to any limitations on using it, or indeed any sections. Maybe I missed it.

Still if I was building a house tomorrow, I would opt for 150x44 studs at 400 centres, both internal and external.

I do believe that size matters;)

Kadman:)

CJhaughey

kadman wrote:

T
If you know of a timberframe company, or indeed a tf designer, that reccomends 3x2's for internal or external wall paneling, please post a link, as I imagine a lot of self builders would be interested in a quote, for the cheaper alternative. I would also be interested to see their specs on them.
kadman:)

http://www.scanhome.ie/houses.php
4th Paragraph

rooferPete

Hi Kadman,

Looking at the quote I wonder would it be ethical for the next new contractor to adopt the old saying "Never mind the Quality, Feel The Width" as the company motto

I suppose that standard now is dictated by volume and quantity , more so than by quality.
There may be some relation ship to the current requirements of tradesmen in their early apprenticeship training, as the standard they have to achieve in some areas of training is only set at 40% for pass rates. It seems low to me, but thats a whole other thread.

There are still a few around who work to "Ye Olde Standards"

150 x 44 for me , my good man, if you please.:)

Would a fair reply be, Building a Bungalow old chap ?

Happy New Year,

.

kadman

rooferPete wrote:

I mean no disrespect to Kadman, CJ and others, but this thread should not need to exist if proper standards of construction were covered and enforced by our Building Regulations.

I read threads where people who bought apartments and semi detached homes may as well be living with their neighbours due to the noise transfer between the walls and floors.

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.

Hi Rooferpete,

I think you have raised two very valuable points in your last post.

As you say, if proper construction methods prevailed, this thread should not exist. Unfortunately you are only too aware that the current construction methods predominately used, are of a very low standard. I suppose that standard now is dictated by volume and quantity , more so than by quality.
There may be some relation ship to the current requirements of tradesmen in their early apprenticeship training, as the standard they have to achieve in some areas of training is only set at 40% for pass rates. It seems low to me, but thats a whole other thread.

Indeed the current lifetime of a timberframe / block house has been stated in various quarters at between 25-50 years. Strange , when most of us expect to live into our octegenarian years. Stranger again I suppose, that my own cottage is over 200 years old, and still going strong, and would probably not conform by current day regs. But it will last alot longer than some of the tf builds I have seen.

OBTW as to the disrespect, non taken.

But I still would not use 3x2's for internal wall panels, load bearing or non load bearing. I served my apprenticeship with one of the first tf companies in Ireland. And their first houses were with 3x2's. And I have not seen any since , with 3x2. And thats 30 years ago.

150 x 44 for me , my good man, if you please.:)

kadman:)

rooferPete

Hi,

As I read it there appears to be a bit of confusion regarding the 3" x 2" timber for internal walls.

Kadman appears to be reading the studding as structural walls where CJ is referring to them as non structural partitions ?

I can recall when 8' x 4' plaster boards came on the market here with truss roofs, the 600 centres were not supposed to be important where the slabs were concerned.

Because the under side of the truss was supposed to be cross lathed at 400 centres for two reasons ;

The main reason was to prevent the truss from twisting at the ceiling level because of the extra strength supplied by the cross laths.

The second reason was to allow the slabs to be nailed up at the correct centres without them forming part of the building structure which seems to be happening a lot now due to the longer spans the trusses are covering.

I believe T/F has one main enemy in this country and that is abuse of what is a system proven in other countries.

150 mm would be considered the minimum size acceptable in places like the USA where they envy our concrete walls.

They have a lot more experience with T/F than we do considering 2 x 4 's has been a standard part of their construction language for over 150 years, 600 mm or 2 foot centres is standard with them but they would never consider a truss roof without a plywood deck (sheeting).

Even the old structures I have studied in the U.S. were close boarded with 6" x 1" regardless of the roof finish be it slate, tile, metal or felt shingles.

I am not saying their system is perfect considering in some places the decking is now 1/2" OSB or plywood but they do have the experience of harsher climates in some places too much sun and others have Ice Dams, but I believe we should be learning from them.

They do not fool themselves that a cheap T/F construction is a house built for what we refer to as a "Life Time", the official "Life" in today's Irish Construction Industry is fifty years.

Take a 25 year mortgage into consideration and it should not be too long before the lenders will start to value Irish Homes by the age and site value.

I mean no disrespect to Kadman, CJ and others, but this thread should not need to exist if proper standards of construction were covered and enforced by our Building Regulations.

I read threads where people who bought apartments and semi detached homes may as well be living with their neighbours due to the noise transfer between the walls and floors.

There should be no need for this discussion with the so called Standards Authority in this country causing materials to cost more by charging large amounts for IAB Certificates that mean nothing when the materials are used and drawing up regulations that are based on no true Quality Standard remaining totally unaccountable.

I know this is way off topic but it may be worth a look to those in the Industry and the consumers who are considering buying an apartment or semi detached home, http://www.firebar.ie/Legal_Proceedings.htm

.

kadman

CJhaughey wrote:

There is no problem with a 3x2 as far as strength goes, it all depends on where exactly you use them.
You should know that with your Cad skills.
I would not like to have them in my external walls however in the internal studs there is no problem.
You do have to be careful with screw placement but that would apply equally with 4x2 studs.
I would say that you are correct in that 3x2 is not widely used in this country but this country lags behind europe in a lot of building practice.
Witness the still widespread practice of allowing open cold water tanks in the attic.

There is a major problem using 3x2 for internal wall studs. They are entirely unsuitable for load bearing internal studwork, even from the point of running services, fixing units, soundproofing ect. All the timberframe companies in Ireland, would be of the same opinion, thats why they do not use them. if they were suitable, they would offer them as an option on their quotations. They do not.

If you know of a timberframe company, or indeed a tf designer, that reccomends 3x2's for internal or external wall paneling, please post a link, as I imagine a lot of self builders would be interested in a quote, for the cheaper alternative. I would also be interested to see their specs on them.

I do not understand the relation ship between my cad skills, and the suitability of 3x2 for timberframe panels. Please explain. I can draw 3x2 's in any area of a house, it does not make them suitable.

My construction experience tells me this, my timberframe experience, both design and erection , tells me this. I have never seen a tf build using 3x2's, nor a design or engineering spec for 3x2's. I would be very interested to see one.

kadman:)