Dublin Bus on strike today (9/12/2005)

Trampas

Buses will be going on strike today from 1pm. They are marching in town.

RobEire

Trampas wrote:

Buses will be going on strike today from 1pm. They are marching in town.

Good for them!

Hope they are back on board before rush hour...

Nala

****ing ****. Have been looking forward to going to the cinema all week and now i cant cos of them.

Gazza22

Dublin Bus are expected to resume service at the latest 4pm today

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

BrianD

Solitaryman666 wrote:

This post has been deleted.

perhaps you should take it upon yourself to be informed about national events. This is has been on the cards for almost 2 weeks now!

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

angeldelight

I had to go into college this morning to drop something in and I was curious about the bus situation so I rang Dublin Bus. Apparently only a fraction were going to the protest and the others were going to be covered... but they knew they were going to have problems getting buses into and out of town, so they couldn't guarantee anything after 11

PandaMania

The real reason for this march apart from trying to give the Labour Party a purpose, is really just union skanger xenophobia and barely hidden bigotry among SIPTU members and Labour Party 'creepin jesus' types. Think back to the taxi drivers claiming, they were "protecting the quality taxi service in Dublin" a few years back and you'll soon realise that this whole Irish Ferries bull**** is just a smokescreen for keeping another vested interest SIPTU, in a position of power they should not have. One of the best laughs I had this year was a comment from the SIPTU rep coming out of the Department of Trasnsport saying "the talks were good, free from any ideology".

They do not care one iota about the rights of Eastern Euopean workers, they simply do not want to share canteen space with them and are using this empathy to keep the SIPTU canteens filled with blokes wearing Celtic jerseys who are all "daycent skins" like themselves. Also eastern europeans can do something which the average SIPTU person can't. Actually be good at their jobs.

You have to remember that until VERY recently semi-state welfare agencies for the otherwise unemployable such as An Post and CIE were simply just providers of employment for familes across several generations. CIE used to have a space on their form for listing which family member you have already employed in CIE just to apply for a job there. This is why the train drivers at IE are all closely genetically linked. It is like the movie Deliverence without the bajos.

So anyway, these hysterical job-for-lifers are marching because they want to keep their little semi state scam going and hard working foreingers disgust them and show them up for the dossers many of them are. They don't care about immigrants in the private sector. But in the semi-states, "no why Jose, me oul China". This is what this is all about. The Chinese can work at Supermacs, but not driving DARTs.

If anybody was to vote for Labour in the next election under the guise that Labour care about ordinary people and therefore public transport, would be off their rockers. Labour only view public transport as a job creation and retention mechanism for SIPTU members and any public transport benefit which comes out of this cushy vested interest arrangement is purely a a side beneifit.

Here is Labour's next election manfesto.

Image of Pat Rabbite looking even more huffy, but holding up his hands to show his stigmata.

VOTE LABOUR FOR THE GOOD OLD DAYS OF ENDLESS STRIKES, 17% UNEMPLOYMENT and 55% TAXATION FOR PAYE WORKERS - UP THE WORKERS (well the semi-state ones, the rest of you can go **** yourselves).


This strike today was an absolute circus and in no way effected the managers of Irish Ferries, just thousands of poor bastards in the private sector trying to make a living. Worker solidarity me arse.

murphaph

PandaMania wrote:

VOTE LABOUR FOR THE GOOD OLD DAYS OF ENDLESS STRIKES, 17% UNEMPLOYMENT and 55% TAXATION FOR PAYE WORKERS - UP THE WORKERS (well the semi-state ones, the rest of you can go **** yourselves)

Wrong Thomas! The rest of us can go work our b0llixes off to generate enough tax revenue to pay the wages for these guys. Your post was spot on-these semi-state employees who benefit from guaranteed 'partnership' pay increases can happily go on protests because there is no possibility of their already loss-making (I don't have a problem with this per-se) employers upping sticks and fcuking off to China because they work for the government essentially. I wonder how many private sector employees will have downed tools for today's protest????

'Partnership' is a load of cock as far as I'm concerned and only spineless governments engage in it as it does not benefit the population at large, only those fortunate enough to work for one of the big jobs providers, I mean semi-states. The government use it because if a semi-state like CIE go out on strike the government get it at the polls, whereas if a private company treats it's staff like sh!t, who cares? The employees can strike all they want and it won't effect the next general election-that's all this sh!t boils down to.

shltter

PandaMania wrote:

The real reason for this march apart from trying to give the Labour Party a purpose, is really just union skanger xenophobia and barely hidden bigotry among SIPTU members and Labour Party 'creepin jesus' types. Think back to the taxi drivers claiming, they were "protecting the quality taxi service in Dublin" a few years back and you'll soon realise that this whole Irish Ferries bull**** is just a smokescreen for keeping another vested interest SIPTU, in a position of power they should not have. One of the best laughs I had this year was a comment from the SIPTU rep coming out of the Department of Trasnsport saying "the talks were good, free from any ideology".

They do not care one iota about the rights of Eastern Euopean workers, they simply do not want to share canteen space with them and are using this empathy to keep the SIPTU canteens filled with blokes wearing Celtic jerseys who are all "daycent skins" like themselves. Also eastern europeans can do something which the average SIPTU person can't. Actually be good at their jobs.

You have to remember that until VERY recently semi-state welfare agencies for the otherwise unemployable such as An Post and CIE were simply just providers of employment for familes across several generations. CIE used to have a space on their form for listing which family member you have already employed in CIE just to apply for a job there. This is why the train drivers at IE are all closely genetically linked. It is like the movie Deliverence without the bajos.

So anyway, these hysterical job-for-lifers are marching because they want to keep their little semi state scam going and hard working foreingers disgust them and show them up for the dossers many of them are. They don't care about immigrants in the private sector. But in the semi-states, "no why Jose, me oul China". This is what this is all about. The Chinese can work at Supermacs, but not driving DARTs.

If anybody was to vote for Labour in the next election under the guise that Labour care about ordinary people and therefore public transport, would be off their rockers. Labour only view public transport as a job creation and retention mechanism for SIPTU members and any public transport benefit which comes out of this cushy vested interest arrangement is purely a a side beneifit.

Here is Labour's next election manfesto.

Image of Pat Rabbite looking even more huffy, but holding up his hands to show his stigmata.

VOTE LABOUR FOR THE GOOD OLD DAYS OF ENDLESS STRIKES, 17% UNEMPLOYMENT and 55% TAXATION FOR PAYE WORKERS - UP THE WORKERS (well the semi-state ones, the rest of you can go **** yourselves).


This strike today was an absolute circus and in no way effected the managers of Irish Ferries, just thousands of poor bastards in the private sector trying to make a living. Worker solidarity me arse.

You have no idea what you are talking about I was on the march today as were my colleagues from Eastern Europe, Africa, Asia, Western and central Europe and America and we all Happily share the same canteen everyday.
The march was about securing equality for all workers and not allowing greedy bastards like Irish Ferries exploit people from anywhere in the world.

And you are so off the mark on the Labour Party because in the view of most of the people I know who were at the march today the Labour Party are useless they have been near silent on this issue.
They have alligned themselves with one of the most conservative parties in the country and nobody would put any faith in the Labour Party to look after workers interests if they were in power considering they failed completely when they were power before.

And Perhaps because you were not there you did not realise that that an awful lot of the workers on the march were from the private sector

Slippin Jimmy

Nala wrote:

****ing ****. Have been looking forward to going to the cinema all week and now i cant cos of them.

So if they are what you say, why do you use the buses if you are not happy with them. You are more or less saying that they do not have the right to protest over the Irish Ferries dispute, all they are trying to do is help their collegues. If you worked for Irish Ferries then you would be happy of all the support you got. Why can't you go because of them, can you not get a taxi?
Would you ever go and get a life and complain about something worth while:eek: .

gjim

You are more or less saying that they do not have the right to protest over the Irish Ferries dispute

No one is saying that. But if you want to protest/do some gardening/play football/etc., why not do it on your own time? National day of dossing more like. If it was on today, I wonder how many would give up their time for the protest. A delegation went from where I work (nothing to do with me - I'm not a union member) and I could hear two of the delegation planning a bit of shopping while they were in town.

PandaMania

The thing is that SIPTU is very much a middle class thing. In the Ballymun flats when I was a kid, I knew nobody who was in an trade union or worked in the semi-states.

All these so called opressed union men were all living in middle class private estates in Old Ballymun (sorry I mean "East Glasnevin!!!") Raheny, Santry and Drumcondra and looked down their noses at people in the Ballymun flats like we were vermin. There was no empathy and solidarity for us or semi-state jobs when we left school, they were reseved for the sons of CIE unions in these comfortable middle class neighbourhoods.

I can remember being a young kid getting on the old No 36 bus one day to Shangan Ave and the bus driver opening the door looking out at the people waiting to go to Ballymun and saying to the conductor. "Look at these ****ing animals, the state of them". Mind you, they had no problem taking our bus fare and not issuing a ticket and spending their "perks" at the CIE social club bar that night. This is the real reason why the conductor system on the buses and wagon load freight on the railways was stopped. There was wholesale mass "finger-in-the-till" going on within CIE union staff. These days they pilfer the taxes of the private sector, but the same "I'm alright jack!" mindset remains among the CIE employees in there late 40 and 50's and these very much represent the hardcore elements within CIE (and all semi-states for that matter).

The ironic thing is that real working class marginalised people don't want to join unions. They want to make money and get rich. The only people who see some kind of romance in being poor, are ones who have never been poor, like Christy Moore who gets paid 60,000 Euro a gig to play "ordinary man" to a civil servants and SIPTU reps who drive to the gig in their 4x4s. Why do you think so many rappers from the ghetto sing about being in the back of limo with a couple supermodels.

Did anybody see how few real working class union people there were actually there yesterday. Apart from the school teachers and civil servants who are not poeple who actual live in what most of us would consider the real world (unless six weeks paid holiday is the norm and getting bonus for being incompetent), the majority of the crowd were students who haven't graduated yet and found out that they are talking bollox (this is part of being young and I can forgive them), and the usual rent-a-crowd shower; Sinn Feiners and the adorable Socialist Workers Party. Ah yes, the SWP...god bless their stockbroker and cosmetic surgeon "mommies and deddies" in Dalkey who fund their bohemian lifestyle so they can act "sooooooo radical like you knowwwwww!"

If you compare yesterday's march with the ones in the 70's. Less that half the marchers were actually in unions in Ireland, unlike the 70's were all the marchers were union members and there are 1,000,000 more people living in Ireland today. If anything yesterday proved to all of us that the unions are on their last leg and if it were not for the semi-states and public sectors, they would be almost gone.

I would support Irish trade unions if there were really about social justice, but they are not. I am actually very liberal as I have strong belife in society taking care of the truly marginalised and disadvantaged, but I am also a huge fan of capitalism and wealth. Getting super rich to me is a noble thing as is having free health care and education for all citizens. Money is wonderful and so is social justice - what we saw yesterday have feck all to do with social justice.

Partnership is all about blackmail and more worringly it subverts democracy and real social justice away from the people who truly need it and into the hands of the pampered middle classes working in the semi-states and the civil service, while the hard working, dynamic, creative and unproteced Celtic Tiger creators in the working, middle and upper classes in the private sector foot the bill for these professional An Beal Bocht'ers and their hyper-inflated sence of personal self entiltlement.

and I repeat again, there is a strong under current of bigotry and xenophobia in all this which will continue to come out as they keep this "unrest" up. People in unions tend to be of very low intelligence and just like when the British miners dropped a concrete block on some "scabs" killing the taxi driver, it is only a matter of time before some half-witted SIPTU tossbag makes a racist coment to the cameras. Then the game will be up.

shltter

PandaMania wrote:

The thing is that SIPTU is very much a middle class thing. In the Ballymun flats when I was a kid, I knew nobody who was in an trade union or worked in the semi-states.

All these so called opressed union men were all living in middle class private estates in Old Ballymun (sorry I mean "East Glasnevin!!!") Raheny, Santry and Drumcondra and looked down their noses at people in the Ballymun flats like we were vermin. There was no empathy and solidarity for us or semi-state jobs when we left school, they were reseved for the sons of CIE unions in these comfortable middle class neighbourhoods.

I can remember being a young kid getting on the old No 36 bus one day to Shangan Ave and the bus driver opening the door looking out at the people waiting to go to Ballymun and saying to the conductor. "Look at these ****ing animals, the state of them". Mind you, they had no problem taking our bus fare and not issuing a ticket and spending their "perks" at the CIE social club bar that night. This is the real reason why the conductor system on the buses and wagon load freight on the railways was stopped. There was wholesale mass "finger-in-the-till" going on within CIE union staff. These days they pilfer the taxes of the private sector, but the same "I'm alright jack!" mindset remains among the CIE employees in there late 40 and 50's and these very much represent the hardcore elements within CIE (and all semi-states for that matter).

The ironic thing is that real working class marginalised people don't want to join unions. They want to make money and get rich. The only people who see some kind of romance in being poor, are ones who have never been poor, like Christy Moore who gets paid 60,000 Euro a gig to play "ordinary man" to a civil servants and SIPTU reps who drive to the gig in their 4x4s. Why do you think so many rappers from the ghetto sing about being in the back of limo with a couple supermodels.

Did anybody see how few real working class union people there were actually there yesterday. Apart from the school teachers and civil servants who are not poeple who actual live in what most of us would consider the real world (unless six weeks paid holiday is the norm and getting bonus for being incompetent), the majority of the crowd were students who haven't graduated yet and found out that they are talking bollox (this is part of being young and I can forgive them), and the usual rent-a-crowd shower; Sinn Feiners and the adorable Socialist Workers Party. Ah yes, the SWP...god bless their stockbroker and cosmetic surgeon "mommies and deddies" in Dalkey who fund their bohemian lifestyle so they can act "sooooooo radical like you knowwwwww!"

If you compare yesterday's march with the ones in the 70's. Less that half the marchers were actually in unions in Ireland, unlike the 70's were all the marchers were union members and there are 1,000,000 more people living in Ireland today. If anything yesterday proved to all of us that the unions are on their last leg and if it were not for the semi-states and public sectors, they would be almost gone.

I would support Irish trade unions if there were really about social justice, but they are not. I am actually very liberal as I have strong belife in society taking care of the truly marginalised and disadvantaged, but I am also a huge fan of capitalism and wealth. Getting super rich to me is a noble thing as is having free health care and education for all citizens. Money is wonderful and so is social justice - what we saw yesterday have feck all to do with social justice.

Partnership is all about blackmail and more worringly it subverts democracy and real social justice away from the people who truly need it and into the hands of the pampered middle classes working in the semi-states and the civil service, while the hard working, dynamic, creative and unproteced Celtic Tiger creators in the working, middle and upper classes in the private sector foot the bill for these professional An Beal Bocht'ers and their hyper-inflated sence of personal self entiltlement.

and I repeat again, there is a strong under current of bigotry and xenophobia in all this which will continue to come out as they keep this "unrest" up. People in unions tend to be of very low intelligence and just like when the British miners dropped a concrete block on some "scabs" killing the taxi driver, it is only a matter of time before some half-witted SIPTU tossbag makes a racist coment to the cameras. Then the game will be up.

Again you have no idea what you are talking about

Working in a semi state does not make someone middleclass.

None of what you say has any basis in fact it might be what you would like to be the case but it is purile nonsense.
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder because you were raised in Ballymun get over it.

So tell me what do you base your view that it is it is 40 to 50 year olds that represent the " Hardcore" in CIE and other semi states.

What do you base the opinion that CIE workers are pilfering from the private sector. I will remind you that CIE workers pay taxes and we have the lowest subvention of any European country.

What evidence have you that people do not "want" to join unions

You obviously were not at the march because it was not made up of Students. It was made up of ordinary working people from every union I have ever heard of in this country.

As for your statement that the union movement is on its last legs
YOu remind me of the US officials that keep announcing that the Iraqi insurgency is finished it is wishful thinking


And again provide one shred of evidence that the march was about anything other that what it claimed to be.
Personally I think we should be very proud that 150,000 people gave up their own time and money to protest against the naked greed that we have seen in Irish Ferries and that we will not accept people being discriminated against on the basis of where they are from.

daymobrew

shltter wrote:

Personally I think we should be very proud that 150,000 people gave up their own time and money to protest

Someone I know described how some of his Irish Rail coworkers (senior union members) got paid while protesting. They filled in their timesheets to say they finished hours after the actually finished. Upsettingly dishonest.

shltter

daymobrew wrote:

Someone I know described how some of his Irish Rail coworkers (senior union members) got paid while protesting. They filled in their timesheets to say they finished hours after the actually finished. Upsettingly dishonest.

It is if true.
personally I don't think anyone should expect to be paid whilst protesting

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

gjim

PandaMania, that was best and funniest posting I've read here. The Christy Moore fan particularly tickled me - you've described a person I know exactly.

Victor

PandaMania wrote:

This is the real reason why the conductor system on the buses and wagon load freight on the railways was stopped.

So, you are suggesting people slipped out the staff entrance with a bag of cement / fertilizer / beer keg in their back pocket?

parsi

PandaMania wrote:

CIE used to have a space on their form for listing which family member you have already employed in CIE just to apply for a job there. This is why the train drivers at IE are all closely genetically linked. It is like the movie Deliverence without the bajos.

You are a bitter twisted vicious person aren't you ? So many of your posts seem designed to wantonly insult people who have worked their balls off for sweet all.

Maybe you should move that chip to the other shoulder before you get a permanent stoop.

PandaMania

Wagonload was individual van laded with what CIE called 'Sundries' goods. Before the 1980 this could be anything from KitKats to Colour TVs. They were robbed blind for years by CIE staff working in the yards. I know because former CIE employees told me so. "It was a free supermarket" as one of them termed it. This is one of the reasons the non-container freight lost customers - the pallets of fertilizer were being damaged in transit.

Beers kegs were robbed at Glasnevin Junction just as the trains moved under Cross Guns Bridge by Skangers from Cabra West. Saw it happen and few times and it was like something from the Wild West. It was unreal to watch a gang of them tear off a keg and then hit the end of it with a lump hammer and try to catch as much gargle in their gobs as they could while it was spew out at high speed.

I am sure most of these fellas were on the march on friday and Parsi was getting all emotional at the return of socialism just in time for Ivana Batchik to celebrate it with a bottle of Bollinger and some Rocha John Roacha Flutes from Brown Thomas. *starts humming Ordinary Man*

Let's be honest here. This country makes most Banana Republics look dignified. That march on friday was for the benefit of getting more money for the semi-state unions and civil servants even though they don't have to worry about CIE or An Post moving to Pakistan. They all have a job for life and don;t they know it.

The private sector workers who were there were suckered into supporting the public sector vested interests who care for nobody but themselves. You were used. The Civil Servants and Public Sector workers made a partsy of you in order to leverage more power at the next Partnership talks.

Remember this when they move your job to Pakistant and then see how many An Post and CIE union workers and civil servants/schjool teachers come out to support you then... Where were these wonderful men of workers solidarity when Fruit of the Loom sent 2,000 jobs from the Northwest to Pakistan or the thousands of other private sector job which went overseas? I'll tell you, not giving a **** about them job losses, that's were.

Ever had the feeling you have been used?

John R

Wagonload freight disappeared from all the railways in the industrialised world from the late 50's onwards as road traffic increased. The railways could not compete on price, speed or convenience with vans/trucks. In a small, low density country like Ireland the viability of even bulk and container rail traffic is questionable in most cases.

I agree with what parsi said. The bile you are spewing is so OTT I feel you may be in need of psychiatric help.

PandaMania

John R you are 100% correct as to why wagonload freight was dropped. It was also being robbed bllind by CIE staff for decades. Just the the CIE bus conductors would charge so much for a fare and pocket the rest. This was rampant.

The CIE form used to make applicants declare family connections in order to get a job, it was employment aparthide and nothing else and yet these same gob****es are now demanding the rest of us now sacrifice ourselves for them - Parsi is far too emotional to look this up. I guess he is just so ready for the "worker revolution mannnnnnnn" since Friday. Emotions running high, Christy Moore on the CD player singing about the working man, like the ones who built his swimming pool.

The fact is that semi-state workers and civil servants are as much greedy bastards as the rest of us. The only difference is the rest of us admit it and the semi-states and civil servants have this scam called partnership which they claim is for the beneifit of all Irish society, but is just blackmail to line their pockets when you really come down to it. If pointing this out makes me a mental case then I am a mental. Still the truth.

I guess you lads consider Brendan Ogle to be wonderful and credible? Then again if you both work for semi-states you probably do.

The march on Friday was not a show of worker solidarity. Becuase SIPTU is as much a selfish vested interest as IBEC. I understand that the truth can hurt or be shocking to people who have deluded themselves into beleiving that SPITUs newspaper Liberty is an unbiased journal, but it isn't.

Me nuts? nah. I'll tell you what is really nuts. The fact that Ireland is a fantastic country, with amazing standard of living, high wages and even with this, some citizens of this country insist on marching down O'Connell Street and acting like the live in Haiti or Somalia. That's not nuts, that's totally demented! Well if it was a sincere protest, which it wasn't, it was a cycnical attempt to beef up their Partnership protection racket for the sole benefit of public sector workers and nobody else.

Where the hell do these SIPTU types think money actually comes from anyway?

Get some perspective for Jaysus sake. We are blessed to be living in fantastic country here and the semi-states and civil service had NOTHING to do with creating the Celtic Tiger, only rode it for free. But they'll kill it given half the chance and they'll be safe in their jobs for life. But it''l be London, Boston, New York again for the rest of us who don't have a job for life.

and will still have some D4 armchair caring socialist types quoting Chomsky while they pay a Russian prostitiute to blow concaine up his hole.

The game is up lads - think back to what direction the people were running when the Berlin wall came down. Get with the programme please.

John R

PandaMania wrote:

John R you are 100% correct as to why wagonload freight was dropped. It was also being robbed bllind by CIE staff for decades.

I suppose all the CIE staff were taking trips to all the other European railways to rob them blind and that's why their light freight has gone also. :rolleyes:

PandaMania wrote:

Just the the CIE bus conductors would charge so much for a fare and pocket the rest. This was rampant.

Bullsh!t. The fare machines accounted for all the fares issued and the conductors had to tally that with their cash daily.

PandaMania wrote:

The CIE form used to make applicants declare family connections in order to get a job, it was employment aparthide and nothing else

Until the 50's/'60s that was the way the world was, most men automatically went into the same work that their fathers had done.

PandaMania wrote:

and yet these same gob****es are now demanding the rest of us now sacrifice ourselves for them

It must have escaped your attention amongst all your hatred and paranoia but the demonstration was about jobs in the PRIVATE sector namely Irish Ferries.

PandaMania wrote:

blah blah blah...

The rest of your post is such stupid tripe it is not even worth debunking.
The sooner P11 get their message board running again the better, then you can go back to in their direction.

In fact I have now spent more than enough time reading your pathetic rantings so congratulations you are now the sole resident in my ignorelist, have a very pleasant stay.

jank

Man you have issues PandaMania....

I just think you like to rant

shltter

PandaMania wrote:

Get with the programme please.

I wish you would

Idbatterim

If i were irish ferries i would disolve the company and start afresh, tell all those moneysuckers to get stuffed! This is the real world, does these people thing that they are guaranteed a job for life! The unions just push it too far, there agenda is very evident, they couldnt care less about anyone, they are killing the goose that laid the golden eggs, ireland isnt a closed economy, a hell of alot of jobs here are created by large multinationals whos only loyalty is to their shareholders, they wouldnt bat an eyelid if they can relocate to somewhere cheaper. We cant go on here with wage increase, wage increase wage increase, we are actually open to competition! My mums an employer and all you ever hear is poor us (employee) , lucky them (employer)! eh yeah right, the employer gets a very raw deal in comparison to the employee! Could the strike not have been on a weekend, no lets mess up public transport, schools etc, sure well get a few hours off... screw whatever hassle it causes for anyone else! one of the trade union reps the other day said they would be seeking pay for the missed hours caused by their own strike action! Good old trade unions, the real socialists, great that they cant reform the health, prison or transport service! why? cause they want less responsibility and work and more pay! pensions, holidays, bonuses, company car, job for life! isnt it great we should all become public sector workers! In germany at the moment native highly qualified germans are fighting with each other over E1 jobs, engineers are sweeping the streets! this is 100% true! this is the worlds 3rd biggest economy a mature one and with a fantastic infrastrucure and educated people! These people must think the world owes them something, the greed of the unions really in quite unbelievable, im surprised they didnt go out with the dinsosaurs because that how dated they are!

Zaph0d

It is unfair for the public to be punished for public service industrial disputes. In exchange for greater worker protection, those providing monopoly services to the public shouldn't have the right to strike.

Not nurses, not doctors, not teachers, not gardai, not soldiers, not air traffic control and not train drivers. They can protest in a more imaginative fashion than just pissing on the public at every opportunity.

It must make their jobs harder to do when the public they meet every day see them as vermin.

Is secondary strike action not illegal?

parsi

PandaMania wrote:

The CIE form used to make applicants declare family connections in order to get a job, it was employment aparthide and nothing else and yet these same gob****es are now demanding the rest of us now sacrifice ourselves for them - Parsi is far too emotional to look this up.

lol...

you remind me of a guy that used work here. He was a real "Howya" and full of how the "real Duoubs" from Ballyer got raw deals and no one looked after them and he was being crushed by other non-real Duoubs. Of course he forgot that he was in a decent job, with great prospects and a nice rpomotion stream.

Of course he too didn't let facts (even if they are so far out of date as to be antiques) get in the way of his rants either.

As an aside the railways in most countries were an industry where sons followed their fathers. So was mining. So was factory working. So was carting. So was navvying. Do you get the drift - these were all low-paid jobs, with low entry qualifications and available to people who completed the then standard education.

murphaph

What pandamania says is for the most part, quite true and we all know it lads-the unions only have sway amongst the public sector employees in the main and they are determined to cling on to that last vestige of power. The problem is that they have nothing to discourage them from calling strike action as their members' jobs are pretty much secure. Compare the number of strikes in the private sector to the public sector. It's not because we in the private sector are so well paid and looked after by our benevolent employers that we don't feel the urge to down tools sometimes and strike for better cnditions but we can't guys because our employers will close up shop and set up elsewhere. Is this 'right'? Of course not, everyone should be able to strike when they really need to, but we in the private sector who pretty much can't strike regularly see publc sector employees with pretty much guaranteed jobs (or at least jobs that would see large redundancy payments being made) striking for guranteed pay rises, regardless of employee performance. This money comes from private sector PAYE and income tax lads, not from public sector PAYE which is just going back to the exchequer where it came from. I know that not every public servant is earning a fortune, but it should be known that there are plenty of private sector employees earning a pittance too and they are paying the wages of the guy with the guaranteed job.

As for the bus conductors' helping themselves-it did happen. I remember often getting tickets that didn't match what you'd paid for but you didn't care because you weren't going to get any hassle from the conductor over a ticket he sold you. You could count the number of time you saw an inspector ina year on 1 hand. Remember too that those ticket machines often worked so poorly that there was no visible print, maybe just the CIE 'wheel' and nothing else, so the conductor could easily issue smaller fare tickets and you wouldn't even know. He could then pocket the 'profit'. Anyone who claims this NEVER EVER happened is clearly pretty naive. Indeed, until quite recently the CIE staff at Connolly/Tara/Pearse would take cash at the gates for single fares for pasengers arriving in from unmanned outer stations like Ashtown. They gave you NO TICKET or ANY RECEIPT. That money could just go 'i do phoca'. Then there was that ticket checker who was sacked in Cork over 'irregularities' (read what you want into that, I know what I think he was up to) and the unions went bananas and got him reinstated. Since that incident the ticket checkers in the Dublin city centre tations have been issuing receipts from TRIPLICATE books, even for single fares so clearly IE management were not happy with the previous system (I wonder why :rolleyes:).

Social partnership doesn't just p!ss the private sector off, I know two lads in the ESB who were subject to it and they hated it because they were young lads (mid 20's) who worked hard and got paid less than the 'oul lads' who sat around drinkin tea all day.

murphaph

parsi wrote:

As an aside the railways in most countries were an industry where sons followed their fathers. So was mining. So was factory working. So was carting. So was navvying. Do you get the drift - these were all low-paid jobs, with low entry qualifications and available to people who completed the then standard education.

But today the same basically educated bloke (or burd, but you rarely see them riving trains!) can earn up to 48k pressing a few buttons to make one of the safest trains (DART) in Europe stop and go, and then have the cheek to even talk about strike action for driving said trains with (shock horror :eek:) 2 extra carraiges hooked up! Compare that with modern day factory work (still low paid), mining (gone for the most part because the chinese and poles can mine it a lot cheaper), navvying could be compared to modern day roadbuilding contractors' labourers who work their fcukin b0llixes off in all manner of weather for a decent enough wage. The only job that's gotten easier but which has seen an appreciable increase in wages (ignoring inflation) is train driving which used t be hard work (in the days of steam).

shltter

murphaph wrote:

What pandamania says is for the most part, quite true and we all know it lads-the unions only have sway amongst the public sector employees in the main and they are determined to cling on to that last vestige of power. The problem is that they have nothing to discourage them from calling strike action as their members' jobs are pretty much secure. Compare the number of strikes in the private sector to the public sector. It's not because we in the private sector are so well paid and looked after by our benevolent employers that we don't feel the urge to down tools sometimes and strike for better cnditions but we can't guys because our employers will close up shop and set up elsewhere. Is this 'right'? Of course not, everyone should be able to strike when they really need to, but we in the private sector who pretty much can't strike regularly see publc sector employees with pretty much guaranteed jobs (or at least jobs that would see large redundancy payments being made) striking for guranteed pay rises, regardless of employee performance. This money comes from private sector PAYE and income tax lads, not from public sector PAYE which is just going back to the exchequer where it came from. I know that not every public servant is earning a fortune, but it should be known that there are plenty of private sector employees earning a pittance too and they are paying the wages of the guy with the guaranteed job.

As for the bus conductors' helping themselves-it did happen. I remember often getting tickets that didn't match what you'd paid for but you didn't care because you weren't going to get any hassle from the conductor over a ticket he sold you. You could count the number of time you saw an inspector ina year on 1 hand. Remember too that those ticket machines often worked so poorly that there was no visible print, maybe just the CIE 'wheel' and nothing else, so the conductor could easily issue smaller fare tickets and you wouldn't even know. He could then pocket the 'profit'. Anyone who claims this NEVER EVER happened is clearly pretty naive. Indeed, until quite recently the CIE staff at Connolly/Tara/Pearse would take cash at the gates for single fares for pasengers arriving in from unmanned outer stations like Ashtown. They gave you NO TICKET or ANY RECEIPT. That money could just go 'i do phoca'. Then there was that ticket checker who was sacked in Cork over 'irregularities' (read what you want into that, I know what I think he was up to) and the unions went bananas and got him reinstated. Since that incident the ticket checkers in the Dublin city centre tations have been issuing receipts from TRIPLICATE books, even for single fares so clearly IE management were not happy with the previous system (I wonder why :rolleyes:).

Social partnership doesn't just p!ss the private sector off, I know two lads in the ESB who were subject to it and they hated it because they were young lads (mid 20's) who worked hard and got paid less than the 'oul lads' who sat around drinkin tea all day.

As fascinating as your views are can I ask WTF has this to do with anything

So you believe that workers should be allowed to strike when needed and you are resentful because you believe that workers in the public sector are able to use that right and you in the private are not. How is that the fault of public sector workers.

I work for a semi state company and Taxpayers are not paying my wages at all nevermind as some act of benevolence A subvention is paid to the company I work for for providing services that the State deem essential. Whether it was privately or publicly owned the state would still have to pay for these services and the evidence from the UK is that under privatisation they would pay a lot more. Unless you are under some illusion that a private company is going to carry pensioners and social welfare recipients for free and operate services that are incapable of paying their way but because they pass through the Taoiseachs constituency have to be kept running in some form for example
http://www.dublinbus.ie/your_journey/viewer.asp?route=51a.

So you deem public sector workers PAYE payments as less valid becuase the money originated from the state the logic of this could be applied to the various construction companies or indeed any private company that have contracts with the state the money they use to pay their workers comes from the state. It is purile nonesense to suggest that public sector PAYE payments are any less valid than private sector

As for conductors yes it did happen 20 years ago it was not as widespread as Panda would have you believe and anyone caught stealing was sacked. However stealing from an employer was and is not the preserve of the semi state worker. I was recently speaking to a a guy who worked for a large multinational Chocolate company and he boasted of the ammount of merchandise he had stolen from his employer over his long career.

And social patnership pisses off the majority of Dublin Bus drivers who are members of a union that is not a member of ICTU our union has no hand act or part in negotiating any partnership deal nor do we have any vote as to whether it is accepted or rejected yet we are bound by the terms of it.

shltter

murphaph wrote:

But today the same basically educated bloke (or burd, but you rarely see them riving trains!) can earn up to 48k pressing a few buttons to make one of the safest trains (DART) in Europe stop and go, and then have the cheek to even talk about strike action for driving said trains with (shock horror :eek:) 2 extra carraiges hooked up! Compare that with modern day factory work (still low paid), mining (gone for the most part because the chinese and poles can mine it a lot cheaper), navvying could be compared to modern day roadbuilding contractors' labourers who work their fcukin b0llixes off in all manner of weather for a decent enough wage. The only job that's gotten easier but which has seen an appreciable increase in wages (ignoring inflation) is train driving which used t be hard work (in the days of steam).

And again fascinating but WTF do 30 or 40 dart train drivers have to do with anything they chanced their arm and they were told to **** off it happens everyday of the week in companies up and down the country.

Unless you have some information that all dart train drivers are the sons and daughters of former train drivers which I doubt.


Your problem is that you have fallen into the trap of divide and conquer the right wing media and their co horts in FF and the PDs are all the time trying to ferment division between workers.
What happened last friday was that workers from all over Ireland public sector and private stood up for a group of workers(private sector workers) who are being treated very badly by their employer. The vast majority of those on the march have nothing personally to gain or lose if Irish Feriies workers win or lose they gave up their money and time to help other workers end of story.
If the same thing was happening to you tomorrow I would give up a half days pay and march again it is about what is right and wrong not about what is in it for me.

murphaph

shltter wrote:

As fascinating as your views are can I ask WTF has this to do with anything

First off, calm down a touch, you're clearly taking this too personally. My post is relevant in the terms of this thread, that's what it has to do with 'anything'.

shltter wrote:

So you believe that workers should be allowed to strike when needed and you are resentful because you believe that workers in the public sector are able to use that right and you in the private are not. How is that the fault of public sector workers.

Ok, you've already started putting words in my mouth. I am not resentful, I am pointing out to you why private sector workers may feel the way panda is alluding to. I at no time blamed the public-sector worker in my above posts, please reread them as I clearly blamed the unions and government for 'partnership' which benefits nobody but a minority of workers in the form of the public sector. These jobs are paid for through the private sector ultimately, either from business taxes or (mostly in this country) PAYE.

shltter wrote:

I work for a semi state company and Taxpayers are not paying my wages at all nevermind as some act of benevolence A subvention is paid to the company I work for for providing services that the State deem essential. Whether it was privately or publicly owned the state would still have to pay for these services and the evidence from the UK is that under privatisation they would pay a lot more. Unless you are under some illusion that a private company is going to carry pensioners and social welfare recipients for free and operate services that are incapable of paying their way but because they pass through the Taoiseachs constituency have to be kept running in some form for example

Ok, so a subvention is paid to your employer by the government. This money comes from the private sector workers' and employers' tax contributions, there is no getting around that and I totally agree with government subsidies for essential services-that's the nature of social democracy, a political system I truly believe in. I am not advocating the privatisation of CIE or anything like that.

shltter wrote:

So you deem public sector workers PAYE payments as less valid becuase the money originated from the state the logic of this could be applied to the various construction companies or indeed any private company that have contracts with the state the money they use to pay their workers comes from the state. It is purile nonesense to suggest that public sector PAYE payments are any less valid than private sector

This is untrue and is easy to show. If the public sector grew larger you would quickly see why the PAYE contributions made by that sector are not as important (as a group, not individully so don't take this personally) as tax revenues raised from the private sector employers and employees. You'd reach a point where the government was unable to pay it's various departments' wages, nevermind build capital infrastructure. One look north of the border shows you what a fat bloated public service means (it requires a massive subsidy from Britain, £3.5bn annually, ie private sector industry like banking in the city of London is paying for a public service in NI). So the public service should be as small as possible, especially when your country doesn't have the luxury of 40% corporation tax rates and sources most of it's exchequer funding for public service from private sector PAYE contributions. You must not think for a moment that I am equating someone's PAYE contribution as 'less valid' on a personal level, that's clearly not true-if someone (and there are plenty) works hard in the public service and so on then I view them as just as important as the hardworking guy in the private sector, they are obvioulsy performing a job that is essential for the running of the country or whatever, but at the end of the day-their wages come from the private sector tax-take.

shltter wrote:

As for conductors yes it did happen 20 years ago it was not as widespread as Panda would have you believe and anyone caught stealing was sacked.

I refer you to the recent 'mutiny' in Cork when management tried to remove people accused of 'ticket checking irregularites'.

shltter wrote:

However stealing from an employer was and is not the preserve of the semi state worker. I was recently speaking to a a guy who worked for a large multinational Chocolate company and he boasted of the ammount of merchandise he had stolen from his employer over his long career.

The difference is, the private company will eventually go bust or move to China if enough stuff is nicked, the public sector semi-state will just get a larger subvention, they will not close down.

shltter wrote:

And social patnership pisses off the majority of Dublin Bus drivers who are members of a union that is not a member of ICTU our union has no hand act or part in negotiating any partnership deal nor do we have any vote as to whether it is accepted or rejected yet we are bound by the terms of it.

So can I take it that you would like 'partnership' scrapped and each employee paid on merit and performance as is the norm in the private sector?

murphaph

shltter wrote:

And again fascinating but WTF do 30 or 40 dart train drivers have to do with anything they chanced their arm and they were told to **** off it happens everyday of the week in companies up and down the country.

They weren't told to fcuk off until it became clear that public opinion was completely against them and the IE management would have had the full backing of the board of CIE and government who in turn would have had the full backing of the general public to have a complete standoff with them over it. They didn't just chance their arms, they were fully prepared to countenance putting the c. 100k daily DART users through transport hell to get a few extra quid for doing nothing more.

shltter wrote:

Unless you have some information that all dart train drivers are the sons and daughters of former train drivers which I doubt.

We've moved on from that point and it's no longer related to the above.

shltter wrote:

Your problem is that you have fallen into the trap of divide and conquer the right wing media and their co horts in FF and the PDs are all the time trying to ferment division between workers.

I'm actually quite the socialist, but we have a twisted version of social justice in this country that heavily favours those in public service by virtually guaranteeing them a job for life while almost everyone in the private sector is one pay cheque away from poverty. That's the problem here, I don't believe for one moment that you think all workers have the same security of employment so your divide and conquer line is a nonsense-we are already clearly divided by the fact that the private sector worker has little security of employment compared to the public sector one. When was the last raft of public sector redundancies? If anything you tend to see governments 'hiding' unemployment by hiring in the public sector coming up to an election.

We need our public services, our bus drivers, our doctors our Gardai and so on, but we need them (and more particularly their union representatives and the government) to remember that it's the private sector that ultimately pays their wages because this country is built on the capitalist economic model, not the communist one.

gjim

Bullsh!t. The fare machines accounted for all the fares issued and the conductors had to tally that with their cash daily.

Do you know any (ex-)bus conductors? If you do, ask them about the fiddling that went on. It was infamous.

PandaMania, as you can see from many of the reactions here, the unions in this country are considered sacrosanct (like the church was up to 20 years ago). Like church supporters back then, union supporters are comprised of two distinct classes; the naive but well-meaning and the cynically self-interested.

There are many supporters of unions who genuinely believe that unions share their interest in social justice. There were similar supporters of the church years ago who just couldn't even conceive that the heirarchy might contain machiavelian self-interested b*astards. As you say, it's easy to forgive students and the like falling for a simplistic view of the world but most adults leave such naive beliefs behind (it's part of growing up - the same way you stop believing in Santa, the tooth fairy, horoscopes and the like).

The "social justice" angle is pure smoke screen. The real efforts in the trade union movement goes into engineering benchmarking (described as an "ATM" for union members by a particular union leader) and increasing their own power. The thin veneer of socialist rhetoric only barely hides the underlying Marxism with it's hatred of the lumpenproletariate (the "scangers from the flats" and the genuine working class - those working at the bottom of the "value" chain in insecure service work).

The current news shows that the posturing has nothing to do with social justice, the conditions of workers or anything else. It was a cynical attempt by one Golliath union SIPTU to increase it's power (and crush a smaller weaker union, SUI) by demanding it represent all the new workers on the ship. Of course the self-delusional will deny that this was SIPTU's motivation all along. There was an angry reaction to my suggestion earlier in the thread that maybe SIPTU was being disingenious, hypocritical, etc. In actual fact I was giving them too much credit; they were actually organising a power grab against a smaller weaker union and of course managed to motivate the naive and foolish into supporting them using a smoke screen of lies about their concern for various worthy goals.

Victor

PandaMania wrote:

Where were these wonderful men of workers solidarity when Fruit of the Loom sent 2,000 jobs from the Northwest to Pakistan

.... Morrocco.

PandaMania wrote:

The game is up lads - think back to what direction the people were running when the Berlin wall came down. Get with the programme please.

Both directions, the price of butter was fixed, as was the exchange rate, for a few weeks, there was a wonderful market.

parsi

murphaph wrote:

We need our public services, our bus drivers, our doctors our Gardai and so on, but we need them (and more particularly their union representatives and the government) to remember that it's the private sector that ultimately pays their wages because this country is built on the capitalist economic model, not the communist one.

We also need to bear in mind that a lot of businesses in this country do very well thank you out of the public sector. It always makes me laugh when IBEC call for reduced public spending - surely it would affect their own members if the Public Sector stopped buying PCs & servers, stopped getting in consultants, terminated maintenance contracts, reduced security contracts, stopped building roads, stopped feeding people in hospitals, reduce spending on medical supplies etc etc.

PandaMania

The thin veneer of socialist rhetoric only barely hides the underlying Marxism with it's hatred of the lumpenproletariate (the "scangers from the flats" and the genuine working class - those working at the bottom of the "value" chain in insecure service work).

Yes indeed. I know one SIPTU rep who's father was a chairman of a local Hunt. He grew up in a country manor house in a world of horses, stables and paddocks. He drives a 4x4 to SIPTU meetings and the whole family are wealthy property developers and auctioneers. I have no idea how this guy became a SIPTU rep, but he is very much part of the social and economic ellite and he was at the march on Friday with his bottom lip trembling on que for the cameras.

SIPTU do not represent the poor of this country and never have. At best they take care of lower Middle Classes and then work their way up.

You're analogy comparing the Trade Unions to the Catholic Church 20 years ago is excellent. Notice how I was declared insane simply for pointing out what most Irish people have seen with their own eyes and yes, the same people who marched supporting SPUC and the anti-divorce referdums were a mixed of fanantics and well meaning naive folk.

What we saw on Friday was a requim march for the trade union movement in Ireland as more and more people in this country especially since Brendan Ogle (which the union lads on this thread have yet to comment on) and the ILDA lunatics destroyed whole segments of Irish Rail's business and then this guy goes on to get a highly paid job at ESB and next thing you know there is "industrial unrest" and talk of "power cuts". To their credit many of the lads in ESB ignored Ogle and his Stalinistic "you're either with us or against us" diatribes. ESB are by far the most professionally run semi-state and notice how the whole union thing there is not a major factor. This is why Ogle was sent in there - to radicalise them, get them back in the fold in much the same way he cause absolute mayhem within Irish Rail with the blessing of the CIE Unions. It failed.

I see the Trade Union movement in this country in 10 years time being a tiny group representing mainly public sector workers as more of a social club than anything else. With the construction of the Dublin Metro and Luas, more private bus companies, the CIE unions will no longer be able to hold us all for randsom anymore.

One of the most digusting episodes in this history of trade union movement in this country was a series of CIE bus strikes in the early 1980's at a time when hundreds of thousands of real working class Dubliners had been recently transferred into the then wastelands of Tallaght, Blanchardstown and Mulhuddart. These people were socially and economically very vunerable (little more than refugees at the time) as these areas were vast housing tracts and nothing else. When the bus strike happened I can recall one morning at around 5AM seeing literally hundreds of men walking in the freezing rain down the old Tallaght Road into Terenure and on to their jobs in town. While the poor CIE opresed union workers from middle class Clontarf, Drumcondra and Phisborough (there familes could walk into town easy enough) picketed the bus depots screaming about their rights and how hard they had it. While the CIE Unions forced the men of Tallaght, Clondalkin and Mullhuddart to walk 8 miles into the city centre to try and keep their low paid jobs, which were not jobs for life in the semi-state unions. It was sickening beyond words. Within a few days the army came to the rescue and operated make shift public transport to West Dublin using lorries which were drven down from the border. In the early 1970's a similar CIE bus strike led many city centre businesses to close up and cos the lost of hundreds of jobs and a serious delcine in the life of Dublin City Centre. This is the history of the CIE unions. All for themselves, screw the rest of you - social justice is for them and them alone and yet they march on Friday telling us how wonderful they are.

and just like the collaspe of the church nobody dared to say anything anti-union in the early 70's and 1980's. But that would not happen today. If the strike from last friday happened again, they would see some serious hostility from the public very quickly. Personally I do hope that SIPTU call a General Strike as it would be the end for them.

What I found interesting about this thread is the mentality of the pro-union poeple. They are very much about the whole "dissenters will not be tolerated" thoughtcrime mindset. The comments about my mental health were right out of 1950's Russia and you do have to wonder if these people had the power would they be building Gulags in Donegal and sending people who disagree with their phoney socialism there to be reeducated. Instantly people are branded right wing PD and FF supporters. I am neither right wing, nor care much for these parties, but because some one (actually loads of people) dares to question the propaganda from vested interest such as SIPTU you get hit with all kinds of names. Tough **** lads, some of us have minds of our own and do not need to have the SWP Dalkey Soviet banging drums beside us. We are perfectly happy thinking for ourselves and making out own way in life. I also find it interesting how my humor on my posts, were totally missed by these social justice types. Like they are so far up there own backsides they cannot see how my comments about Christy Moore as being funny. They just assume I am mentally ill and ranting at the moon for no reason. Cannot see the ironic humor. Their reaction is so insightful into the way differ from how most Irish people I know see the world, and yet at the same time they claim to represent us and well as being our only hope like we are all a shower of hapless thickos who need SIPTU to save us. It is so incredibly patronising.

See lads, now you know why most Irish people these days are not mauling roasary beads or joining SIPTU - because these days most Irish people can think for themseves and form their own opinions and this is what terrifies the likes of SIPTU. Most Irish people (apart from Joe Duffy callers) have a self-belief in themselves now coupled with a strong sense of personal economic and social independence which only serve to undermine the rationale for the SPITU reps to get their private car allowences when driving around the country talking ****e thought their 1970's beards.

Metrobest

Here's my take on last Friday: a tiny minority of Irish citizens are trying to bully the majority population through an emotive and spurious day of protest. When you crunch the numbers, it's obvious that this is very small but militant group of individuals all of whom feel threatened by accountability, don't want to change their terms and conditions in the slightest (unless they get compensation for the trauma!); who don't understand the reality of the economic conditions that made the Celtic Tiger sprang to life, and, most importantly, who don't give a damn about the working conditions of Latvians or the rights of immigrants. All they care about is preserving their own uniquely-generous terms and conditions and copper-fastening their outdated concept of the "job for life" - things the majority of citizens have moved on from.

It is fair to estimate that of the 40,000 or so protesting in Dublin last week, a few thousand are CIE workers. Another few thousand are teachers. Many thousand more are assorted Shinners, Labourites and union heads. So far, so predictable. What's interesting is that when you remove from the equation those with vested interests you're left with a very small number of ordinary private-sector-employed members of the public who felt strongly enough to down keyboards for the day. This tells me that the trade union nettle is starting to wither, not prosper.

Where were the Luas drivers on Friday? Driving the trams of course.
Where were the Aer Lingus staff who've had to adjust to real life terms and conditions? Flying the planes. And where were the vast majority of Irish citizens employed in the private sector? Working, fuelling the economy, as they always do.

The Irish Ferries dispute is the last hurrah of a trade union movement that cannot be sustained. The notion of trade unions is of "worker versus employer" but this concept is no longer important for most people. Prosperity has meant that people are in control of their own career paths, wage rates are constantly rising and ever-more generous perks are being offered to retain productive employess. Witness Ivor Callelly's offer of a car.

Thanks goodness Ireland's economy is being driven by the private sector. Were the labour/union movement in charge, we'd be back to days of high taxes, high unemployment, zero immigration (there'd be no jobs) and a public sector tail wagging the economic dog. Thankfully the Tiger is powered by US investment, low taxes, a flexible labour market, and inward migration. Four things which, when you strip away the mask, are SIPTU's biggest threat.

shltter

Metrobest wrote:

Here's my take on last Friday: a tiny minority of Irish citizens are trying to bully the majority population through an emotive and spurious day of protest. When you crunch the numbers, it's obvious that this is very small but militant group of individuals all of whom feel threatened by accountability, don't want to change their terms and conditions in the slightest (unless they get compensation for the trauma!); who don't understand the reality of the economic conditions that made the Celtic Tiger sprang to life, and, most importantly, who don't give a damn about the working conditions of Latvians or the rights of immigrants. All they care about is preserving their own uniquely-generous terms and conditions and copper-fastening their outdated concept of the "job for life" - things the majority of citizens have moved on from.

It is fair to estimate that of the 40,000 or so protesting in Dublin last week, a few thousand are CIE workers. Another few thousand are teachers. Many thousand more are assorted Shinners, Labourites and union heads. So far, so predictable. What's interesting is that when you remove from the equation those with vested interests you're left with a very small number of ordinary private-sector-employed members of the public who felt strongly enough to down keyboards for the day. This tells me that the trade union nettle is starting to wither, not prosper.

Where were the Luas drivers on Friday? Driving the trams of course.
Where were the Aer Lingus staff who've had to adjust to real life terms and conditions? Flying the planes. And where were the vast majority of Irish citizens employed in the private sector? Working, fuelling the economy, as they always do.

The Irish Ferries dispute is the last hurrah of a trade union movement that cannot be sustained. The notion of trade unions is of "worker versus employer" but this concept is no longer important for most people. Prosperity has meant that people are in control of their own career paths, wage rates are constantly rising and ever-more generous perks are being offered to retain productive employess. Witness Ivor Callelly's offer of a car.

Thanks goodness Ireland's economy is being driven by the private sector. Were the labour/union movement in charge, we'd be back to days of high taxes, high unemployment, zero immigration (there'd be no jobs) and a public sector tail wagging the economic dog. Thankfully the Tiger is powered by US investment, low taxes, a flexible labour market, and inward migration. Four things which, when you strip away the mask, are SIPTU's biggest threat.

i have no interest in arguing with you the numbers of people at the march suffice to say it was at least double the 40,000 you estimate

Also I walked up O'Connell st on friday to join my colleagues on Parnell Square the march had already started and what struck me was that the people who were on the footpath watching and waiting for the march to pass were clapping and cheering, over an hour later when my union eventually made our way down O'Connell St due to the numbers attending people were still clapping.

You can try and convince yourself that it was unrepresentative or whatever makes you feel better but anyone who was on that march or in the area on Friday knows it was one of the best recieved marches I have seen in Dublin for a long long time.

On your other points the Aerlingus workers were there and well represented

on the LUAS drivers they were there However and this is one of the reasons I hate SIPTU SIPTU has an exclusive agreement with Connex to represent LUAS workers that was signed before Connex employed anyone in this country in return SIPTU signed a no industrial action agreement with Connex. The reason SiPTU did not pull off the LUAS was not because it operates in the real world it was because it was protecting its position as sole union in Connex.

So as regards SIPTU I hate them as well I would not join them and I know they would sell any worker or group of workers down the swanny for their beloved social partnership.

PandaMania

shltter wrote:

i have no interest in arguing with you .

Well of course not. This would be an afront to you fantasy victim complex of "fat cats" versus the noble and infallible unions.

shltter wrote:

suffice to say it was at least double the 40,000 you estimate

Did that include the Vico Road Anti-Globalisation Drum Circle? I heard that Killian (bongos) and Tarquin (bugie bells on stick) had a falling out as both of them were bidding for the same Peruvian Yak Herders Cap on eBay.

shltter wrote:

On your other points the Aerlingus workers were there and well represented

You mean the employees of a company whom a former union offical declared that RyanAir "would be a short lived experiment" and then ended up having to emulate RyanAir as AerLingus was on its last leg due to the archaic mentality of the company and its employees?

Did you know that UK rail privatisation was a huge success and in all polls of UK rail passengers said they would not want to go back to British Rail?

shltter wrote:

shltter wrote:

So as regards SIPTU I hate them as well I would not join them and I know they would sell any worker or group of workers down the swanny for their beloved social partnership.

You have to wonder how many of the spectaculary incompetent civil servants behind the P-PARS monumental waste were at the march on friday acting all opressed and victimised even though their job for life, lucrative pension and 100% performance bonus is waiting for them no matter what.

Christy Moore has a indoor swimming pool did you also know that? And isn't amazing how his record company were advertising the tits out of his his new "protest" album leading up to, during and weekend after his fanbase were marching down O'Connell Street demanding that Irish jobs be safeguarded, while half of them were wearing British Corporate soccer jerseys, but god forbid any of them support an Eircom League club. I guess they are highly selective in which irish industry they want to see protected from foreign fat cats. Irish Ferries Mangement are the enemy but oul sure Murdoch and Bramovich are sound blokes...

You union lads are such a comical lot. I would hate to see you dissapear as the amusment you provide those of us living on plaent Earth is priceless. It would be impossible for you to do this anyway as you all dissapeared up your own backsides a long time ago.

John R

gjim wrote:

Do you know any (ex-)bus conductors? If you do, ask them about the fiddling that went on. It was infamous.

Being infamous doesn't make it any more likely to be true than not. One of my uncles was a bus conductor in the 70s and he is without a doubt the most honest person I have ever known. This topic came up in conversation some years ago and he believed that there was not huge numbers of crooks in the job. There were a small number who were 100% bent and up to every trick they could think of including making sure they skived off while others did more than their fare share but that doesn't sound any different to every large company I have had dealings with.

shltter

PandaMania wrote:

Christy Moore has a indoor swimming pool did you also know that?

.

So what fair play to him I couldn't give a **** if he had a swimming pool in every room in the house hasn't he worked hard for his money and isn't he entitled to spend it any way he wants the same as the rest of us.

Honest to God I have rarely seen a poster with such a chip on his/her shoulder WTF has Christy Moore ever done to you this must be the 3rd or 4th time you have mentioned his swimming pool. Would he not let you play with your toys in it.

As for the rest of your post pure ****e as usual I'm afraid.

PandaMania

So the Irish Ferries circus was indeed SIPTU/Labour playing the race card to indulge their xenophobic membership. Who would have guessed it!

I myself find these East Europeans to be great workers and I look forward to them driving late night buses, private passenger and freight trains when CIE is finally binned by a future Government who will no longer be held to randsom by this so called public transport provider. Only a matter of time now. You can already smell the fear coming off the NBRU.;)



The Sunday Times January 08, 2006

Rabitte accused in 'race card' row
Stephen O'Brien, Political Correspondent
ENTERPRISE minister Micheal Martin has accused the Labour leader of playing politics with immigration, after Pat Rabbitte questioned the right of new EU citizens to work in Ireland without permits.

Rabbitte has denied “playing the race card” and accused Martin of failing to “enforce normal pay and conditions for all workers”.
Martin says the Labour leader should clarify remarks he made last week when he called for a review of the practice of allowing people from the 10 EU accession states to take up Irish jobs without work permits. Rabbitte, he said, “would be the first person out condemning a Fianna Fail TD with huge indignation” if they made similar comments.

“I think the danger of articulating something like that in mid-air is that you raise issues such as ‘is he playing the race card?’,” Martin said.
“The buttons he is now pressing seem to me to have far more to do with an electoral, political agenda than a genuine medium-term economic strategy for Ireland.”

In an interview last week Rabbitte called for a reassessment of immigration policy in the aftermath of the Irish Ferries dispute. He said that job displacement by low-paid workers was an issue beyond the maritime sector and was taking place in meat factories, the hospitality and building industries.

“The time may be coming when we will have to sit down and examine whether a work permits’ regime ought to be implemented in terms of some of the non-national labour, even for countries in the European Union,” the Labour leader said.

Martin said he was surprised that Rabbitte had chosen to reopen the issue of whether Ireland should impose restrictions on citizens from the 10 new member states.

“We will need about 50,000 [migrant workers] a year for the next four to five years to sustain economic growth at the levels that are predicted,” Martin said.

“We have already attracted very significant numbers from the new EU accession states, yet unemployment is still the lowest in Europe at 4.3%.

“Now, I don’t know if he [Rabbitte] is playing the race card in an electoral attempt to win more votes . . . [but] I think he needs to clarify fairly specifically what he means.”

But Rabbitte rejected the “race card” suggestion and accused Martin of failing to “enforce normal pay and conditions for all workers”.

“There is a battle going on right across Europe between those whose primary objective is to seek an endless supply of cheap labour, which this government appears to support, and those who want to maintain and improve wages and working conditions for all workers, which the Labour party supports.

“There is extensive evidence of displacement going on in other sectors of the economy — this is not confined to the marine sector.”

Martin said the government was responding to concerns about wider job displacement in the wake of the Irish Ferries controversy.

“I have already increased the labour inspectorate. We have also agreed that we are open for discussions with Siptu and with the social partners generally on how we can improve policing of Irish labour law, compliance rates, to make sure that people aren’t undercut.”

John R

You are aware that the article you have cut and pasted has nothing to do with the stupid comment you attached to it.

Charles Darwin

PandaMania wrote:

Did that include the Vico Road Anti-Globalisation Drum Circle? I heard that Killian (bongos) and Tarquin (bugie bells on stick) had a falling out as both of them were bidding for the same Peruvian Yak Herders Cap on eBay.

I'm not surprised they fell out, given the rarity value of such an item. Now Tibetan yak herder's caps, well you just can't give them away;)

shltter

Charles Darwin wrote:

I'm not surprised they fell out, given the rarity value of such an item. Now Tibetan yak herder's caps, well you just can't give them away;)

LOL

Doesn't look like there is much of a future for those peruvian yak herders