Why do women have to wear Burkas?

UU

I not being anti-Muslim or anything, ok? But it is in my opinion that the whole wearing of the berka (the whole veil for the body) is quite disturbing and un-natural. Why don't males wear this so other women can't have attraction and impure thoughts? I think it is possible that many of the males they are sexist.

Also, how come Muslim women in berkas can walk into shops and banks when people wearing motorbike helmets have to take them off due to sercurity purposes. What about in airports, court, etc. also?

I believe that Muslims and others should have to integrate into Irish society. There is no other country in the world with Irish culture so I think Ireland should change only little bit regarding religion but not totally so I don't believe that Muslim women should be allowed to wear berkas in public places. If a non-Muslim Irish female were to go over to a strict Arabic country like Iraq and not cover up, she'd be in big trouble and may be arrested so I think that immigrants coming here should have to adjust to our way of life like we would have to if we went to their country.

Hobbes

I've moved your post out of the other thread as it is a seperate topic that is certainly worth having discussion about.

how come Muslim women in berkas can walk into shops and banks when people wearing motorbike helmets have to take them off due to sercurity purposes. What about in airports, court, etc.

I believe that is freedom of religon? Although I'd like to hear a breakdown on how it is handled at airports. I believe there are allowances made (similar to doctors).

There is no other country in the world with Irish culture

America has more Irish then Ireland. There are areas in America more *Irish* then the Irish.

so I think that immigrants coming here should have to adjust to our way of life like we would have to if we went to their country.

So we have laws that strictly forbid the use of facewear in public? News to me.

You could certainly chance your arm at refusing them into shops/banks but there are already Muslim banks/shops or there will always be another shop that will take the money.

Also you talk about immigrants? What has that to do with it? What about Irish people who are already Muslim (both of Irish + forigen decent?).

Zanza

UU wrote:

If a non-Muslim Irish female were to go over to a strict Arabic country like Iraq and not cover up, she'd be in big trouble and may be arrested so I think that immigrants coming here should have to adjust to our way of life like we would have to if we went to their country.

lol, that is so not true! Wearing "Burkas" are for thoes who are very religious or thoes women who are supposed to have a very attracting 'face'. Even if a woman didn't wear the "hair cover" alone she wont get into trouble (except in KSA).
Women won't be in trouble if they don't wear their "hair cover" (hijab), rules in the countries (islamic of course!) has nothing to do with the "hijab" and will not punish them. But in the after life God will (said so in the Quraan).


if someone could help me and bring a qoute of this if possible ^^;

Wibbs

I think Qadri covered the religious position in this post; http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50349031&postcount=39

It does strike me as a bit of a strange one though. It seems to suggest that a woman will inflame a man's passions too much if he sees too much of her form. It kinda makes out that men have no control over their baser emotions.While many would say it's out of respect for the woman, it could be used to limit womens freedom far too much IMHO. The far eastern version that just has the headscarf appears to be far less restrictive. That said a micro skirt and 6 inch heels are most likely just as restrictive

Zanza, I'm not so sure about the bit about just covering up the women with attractive faces. I think many would think the opposite more welcome...

Zanza

Well, of course many have different openions. Heck, even some people say that islam is "old fasion" and now we are in the new millinum so we have to act like it and crap like that.
Anyway, all in all, islam protected women by getting covered so that they won't be like a sex object. We all know that women are the most beautiful creature on earth *innocent look*; men 'like' women pretty fast for their attractiveness, so beside protecting women, it ease up the attractiveness part for the men (if you ever saw 40 Days & 40 Nights you might understand what I mean).

Wibbs

Ok, but can men not be "sex objects" too? I mean there's enough women out there mooning over posters of G Clooney et al. Why are they not veiled? Just a thought.

Zanza

I don't think I can find a man to be "that sexy" that it get me worked up..

Do you mind explaining that bit more please? My english isn't that strong
What did you men why are they not veiled? The posters?

Wibbs

Well I don't know about others, but I can safely say that the sight of a woman's leg doesn't get me too worked up(well mostly anyway ). Women can get just as worked up sometimes. I just think it makes out that men are somehow uncontrolled beasts and that they have no restraint.

My English isn't so strong either(many many many times better than my Arabic though). I just think it is... Which is worse

Zanza

hehe, yeah, I know what you mean.. ;p

Well, actually its that both men and women should be wearing 'decent' clothing. Tight jeans is a no-no because you can see how built the man is, just like how you would see how women are thin/fat :P

Islam didn't make women get covered more than men should.. the only difference is that women should cover their hair (and face sometimes) while men don't.. I am not sure what to do if the man had a 'sexy' facial, but that brings an another issue which is not looking to the opposite sex; try to avoid it as much as possible..!

Wibbs

Zanza wrote:

...but that brings an another issue which is not looking to the opposite sex; try to avoid it as much as possible..!

I'm afraid I can't say the same. I'm a terrible heathen anyway so no surprise there.:D

I do agree with you with regard to the unhealthy attention to beauty in society. I feel personally that the Islamic view a bit extreme, but that said the "western" view can sometimes be equally accused of being extreme. A middle ground would be nice. Hey I live in hope.

lazydaisy

I think its kind of flattering that there are men who find us women so hot that they think we need to be covered up, not that I would cover myself up, but the very idea of that makes me feel a little powerful. It confesses that female sexuality is very powerful and that men are afraid of it.

However, I thought that the whole headscarf custom came from the fact that in arabic countries the sun is so strong that women wore these things to protect their skin and hair. And now women wear it because they feel vulnerable without it?

Wibbs

One explanation I heard, was that in the time of the Prophet, wealthy women were veiled as a status thing and that prostitutes and the like advertised their services by being uncovered and showing their hair. Anyone else have the historical view on this?

Blub2k4

Wibbs wrote:

One explanation I heard, was that in the time of the Prophet, wealthy women were veiled as a status thing and that prostitutes and the like advertised their services by being uncovered and showing their hair. Anyone else have the historical view on this?

This is quite possibly the case, I do know that male prostitutes in KSA roll up the bottom few inches of their thobe to make it obvious that they are plying their trade, thus also exposing a bit of leg, this would fit in with the idea that both men and women are supposed to cover up to retain their dignity.

r3boot

there is no refernce in the quoran or the prohpets sayings in relation to burkas for all muslim women therefore I see no reason for them ....

Victor

UU wrote:

Also, how come Muslim women in berkas can walk into shops and banks when people wearing motorbike helmets have to take them off due to sercurity purposes.

If theres a pattern of burka wearing women robbing banks then fair enough, but is there such a pattern?

Of course, the helmet thing is only to control [strike]gurriers[/strike] couriers having their radios turned up to max.

Of course, in the Taliban scheme of things, women wouldn't be allowed into banks. In Saudi Arabia, there are probably separate banks for women.

What about in airports, court, etc. also?

Female security can deal with females wearing burkas.

RekcaH

i resent the gurrier bit...! ..ex-courier here..

wait til i tell DotC :v:

and couriers gotta take their helmets off for security reasons...i would think that was obvious...the radio volume would be a secondary, less important reason... just so ya know.. ..most radios have the clarity of a speaker underwater..

..its a risk potential thing.. as in not allowing people cover their face lowers it..
or of someone religious (or not) person exploiting that risk..

not that religious views shouldnt be respected..

Hamza

Salaamoalaikum !
This is in relation to the question of burka, the veil some muslim women wear.
Please be advised that the 'burka' is NOT something proposed in the islamic tests. It is something some people chose to continue to wear as tradition, long practised culture etc. why this should be understood is that many people come to the conclusion that islam is unjust and suppressive towards women. There are cultural reasons why burka was adapted by certain muslim societies. Please Remember certain cultural practises in many muslim countries are not necessarily islamic. Thanku for bringing up the issue. Please feel free to ask any further questions
allrestless74@hotmail.com

farrahk52

Women dont cover up because men tell us to but because of what God tells us in the quran. Think about it, what man wouldnt want to see a sexy unclad woman?.

I've only started wearing the burka recently, im a British muslim - was born and bred here. I used to get guys looking at me and i didnt mind the fit ones, until i started reading the quran when i realised it was impure and i wanted to be pure and righteous. To be honest i was extremely lustful towards good looking men and part of me loved it when they reciprocated and part of me felt alittle violated?. It felt like i was fornicating but with my eyes. I love covering up, its changed me, im no longer this obsessed lustful person trying to chase fit men at every available opportunity. I dont have these feelings anymore, Im really peaceful now, i never knew such peace or serenity existed!. It has top be mentioned that we all have sexual instincts and some of us need to control them more than others. Its forbidden for men to show anything from their naval to their knees and women to show anything apart from their face and hands. I tried the dressing modestly but showing my hair and i didnt feel any different. I only felt peace and serenity when i covered up totally.

Pls take a look at the following verses / quotes from the quran or hadiths (sayings) of the prophet pbuh. These should answer the question adequately, have also included other stuff about women in islam FYI.

31. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
Holy Quran (Surah al-baqarah)

'Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Truly Allah is Cognizan of what they do.' Holy Qur'an (24:30).[28]


Spiritual Equality of Women and Men
Allah has got ready forgiveness and tremendous rewards for the Muslim men and women; the believing men and women; the devout men and women; the truthful men and women; the patiently suffering men and women; the humble men and women; the almsgiving men and women; the fasting men and women, the men and women who guard their chastity; and the men and women who are exceedingly mindful of Allah. (Al-Ahzab 33:35)


Attitudes towards women
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (An-Nisa 4:19)

Collaboration and consultation
The believing men and women, are associates and helpers of each other. They (collaborate) to promote all that is beneficial and discourage all that is evil; to establish prayers and give alms, and to obey Allah and his Messenger. Those are the people whom Allah would grant mercy. Indeed Allah is Mighty and Wise. (Al-Taubah 9:71)

On the Treatment of Women
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: I went to the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) and asked him: "What do you say (command) about our wives?" He replied: "Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them." (Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 11, Number 2139) "The best of you is one who is best towards his family and I am best towards the family". (At-Tirmithy). "None but a noble man treats women in an honourable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully". (At-Tirmithy).

A Husband must keep the Privacy of his Wife
Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said: The most wicked among the people in the eye of Allah on the Day of Judgement is the man who goes to his wife and she comes to him, and then he divulges her secret. (Muslim Book 8, Number 3369)

The Prophet's Disapproval of Women Beaters
Patient behavior was the practice of the Prophet, even when his wife dared to address him harshly. Once his mother-in-law- saw her daughter strike him with her fist on his chest. When the enraged mother -in-law began to reproach her daughter, the Prophet smilingly said, "Leave her alone; they do worse than that." And once Abu Bakr, his father-in-law, was invited to settle some misunderstanding between him and Aishah. The Prophet said to her, "Will you speak, or shall I speak?" Aisha said, "You speak, but do not say except the truth." Abu Bakr was so outraged that he immediately struck her severely, forcing her to run and seek protection behind the back of the Prophet. Abu Bakr said, "O you the enemy of herself! Does the Messenger of Allah say but the truth?" The Prophet said, "O Abu Bakr, we did not invite you for this [harsh dealing with Aishah], nor did we anticipate it." quoted in: Mutual Rights and Obligations

Hope that helps

IamBeowulf

I find it interesting that many faiths share the same view on sex: that it must be treated as if it were something to be ashamed of. I would never insult a person's faith as I believe it touches the very core of one's soul and to attack it is to attack their soul...but I must admit that Christianity, Islam etc. are all very oppressive when it comes to indulging in one of life's purest pleasures.

By extension, religion and society in general have, over the centuries, sought to limit the powers of women, for they are the "instigators". As if only through their exposing any sexuality, whether it be physical or otherwise, they betray their God's trust.

When I see Muslims walking the streets of Dublin (there aren't many) I am stumped at the lengths to which they'll go to cover up. Under the baking heat of the sun (not that we get much sun) they persist in their black clothing which I can only imagine, heats them up like crazy.

I feel that as a society today we must look at these backwards traditions of suppressing femininity as outdated and vulgar. Women should be allowed to choose whether they cover up or not. It is truly fear on the men's part that they instil the wrath of God into anyone who dares appear attractive to men. A very possessive and insecure rule indeed.

Victor

IamBeowulf wrote: »

When I see Muslims walking the streets of Dublin (there aren't many) I am stumped at the lengths to which they'll go to cover up.

There are thousands of them, you might not notice as not all of them will wear burkas or hijabs.

Under the baking heat of the sun (not that we get much sun) they persist in their black clothing which I can only imagine, heats them up like crazy.

The clothing is light weight.

farrahk52

Sex is nothing to be ashamed of when done between a husband and wife. Outside of this, its filth. It causes destruction in society, i have non muslim freinds who are single parents. I could never imagine bringing a child into this world without a father figure, i would have hated it if it had happened to me. I cant even comprehend it.

I have seen friends, women who are sleeping with their boyfriends freinds / neighbours and have fathered children from them, who pretend they are their bf's!. I swear thats no lie. I know atleast 5. Thing is from my own experience of controlling my lust and desires i know ITS ALL TOO EASY.

Had it not been my upbringing and islam i would have definately been one of these women. I have come to the conclusion (from my own exp) i cant control my desires unless i cover up FULLY. Trust me the last thing i wanted to do was cover up fully , i tried everything else. My manager is awkward with me (we used to flirt alot and now he picks on me for the tiniest mistake) , i've lost my mates (to be honest i was bored of some of them) and life is a bit restrictive but you know what, I AM SO HAPPY because i feel so content and peaceful, something i never knew was possible, infact i used to ask myself amidst the lusftfulness and shallowness that was my life the elusive big one quite often, what is REAL happiness and AM I HAPPY?. I understand now. This life is a test and like with any test, it comes with it rules and regulations, no illicit sex on earth = plenty of sex in paradise where it will be more intense and it will be ETERNAL!. Apart from this there will be many more rewards in paradise. I DESPERATELY WANT PARADISE, this life isn't all its cracked up to be. Theres no real security what with earthquakes, violence, hatred, pollution, global warming, disease, everything on earth has to be maintained, ie things have to be grown, looked after, eventually we are all going to die sooner or later!, this is how i see life, we are born, have some good times, have some bad times and then we die. WHATS THE POINT?

Know you (all), that the life of this world is but play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting and multiplying (in rivalry) among yourselves, riches and children. Here is a similitude: How rain and the growth which it brings forth delight (the hearts of) the tillers; soon it withers; you will see it grow yellow; then it becomes dry and crumbles away. But in the Hereafter is a Penalty severe (for the devotees of wrong). And Forgiveness from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure (for the devotees of Allah). And what is the life of this world, but goods and chattels of deception? (Surat al-Hadid: 20)

Fair in the eyes of men is the love of things they covet: women and sons; heaped-up hoards of gold and silver; horses branded (for blood and excellence); and (wealth of) cattle and well-tilled land. Such are the possessions of this world's life; but in nearness to Allah is the best of the goals (to return to). (Surah Ali-'Imran: 14)

"Truly, it is by the Remembrance of Allah that hearts find rest." [Qur'an, 13.28]

25. But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness that their portion is Gardens beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom they say: "Why this is what we were fed with before" for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure; and they abide therein (for ever).
43. And We shall remove from their hearts any lurking sense of injury; beneath them will be rivers flowing; and they shall say: "Praise be to Allah Who hath guided us to this (felicity): never could we have found guidance had it not been for the guidance of Allah: indeed it was the truth that the apostles of our Lord brought unto us." And they Shall hear the cry: "Behold! the garden before you! Ye have been made its inheritors for your deeds (of righteousness)."


72. Allah hath promised to believers men and women gardens under which rivers flow to dwell therein and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss in the Good Pleasure of Allah: that is the supreme felicity.
Surah: 13. ar-Ra'd
23. Gardens of perpetual bliss: they shall enter there as well as the righteous among their fathers their spouses and their offspring: and angels shall enter unto them from every gate (with the salutation):
35. The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised! beneath if flow rivers: perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein: such is the End of the Righteous; and the End of Unbelievers is the Fire.
Surah: 14. Ibrahim

23. But those who believe and work righteousness will be admitted to Gardens beneath which rivers flow to dwell therein for aye with the leave of their Lord: their greeting therein will be: "Peace!"
Surah: 15. al-Hijr
45. The righteous (will be) amid Gardens and fountains (of clear-flowing water).
46. (Their greeting will be): "Enter ye here in Peace and Security."
47. And We shall remove from their hearts any lurking sense of injury: (they will be) brothers (joyfully) facing each other on thrones (of dignity).
48. There no sense of fatigue shall touch them nor shall they (ever) be asked to leave. Surah: 16. an-Nahl

31. Gardens of Eternity which they will enter: beneath them flow (pleasant) rivers: they will have therein all that they wish: thus doth Allah reward the righteous
Surah: 18. al-Kahf 31. For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and they will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade; they will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on!


23. Allah will admit those who believe and work righteous deeds to Gardens beneath which rivers flow: they shall be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls; and their garments there will be of silk.
Surah: 25. al-Furqaan
15. Say: "Is that best or the eternal Garden promised to the righteous? For them that is a reward as well as a goal (of attainment).
16. "For them there will be therein all that they wish for: they will dwell (there) for aye: a promise to be prayed for from thy Lord." Surah 35. Fatir


32. Then We have given the Book for inheritance to such of our servants as We have chosen: But there are among them some who wrong their own souls; some who follow a middle course; and some who are, by Allah's leave, foremost in good deeds; That is the highest grace.
33. Gardens of Eternity will they enter: therein will they be adorned with bracelets of Gold and pearls; And their garments there will be of silk.
34. And they will say:"Praise be to Allah, who has removed from us (all) sorrow: for our Lord is indeed Oft-Forgiving Reasy to appreciate (service):
35. "Who has, out of His bounty, settled us in a home that will last: no toil Nor sense of wearness shall touch us therein." Surah: 37. as-Saaffaat


49. This is a Message (of admonition): and verily, For the righteous, is a beautiful place of (final) return,-
50. Gardens of eternity, whose doors will (ever) be open to them;
51. Therein will they recline (at ease); therein can they call (at pleasure) for fruit in abundance,ad (delicious) drink;
52. And beside them will be Chaste women restraining their glances, (companions) of equal age.
53. Such is the Promise made to you for the Day of Account!
54. Truly such will be our Bounty (to you); It will never fail;-
Surah: 39. az-Zumar
71. The Unbelievers will be led to Hell in crowds; until when they arrive there its gates will be opened and its Keepers will say "Did not apostles come to you from among yourselves rehearsing to you the Signs of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" The answer will be: "True: but the Decree of Punishment has been proved true against the Unbelievers!"
72. (To them) will be said: "Enter ye the gates of Hell to dwell therein: and evil is (this) abode of the arrogant!"
73. And those who feared their Lord will be led to the Garden in crowds: until behold they arrive there; its gates will be opened: and its Keepers will say: "Peace be upon you! Well have ye done! Enter ye here to dwell therein."
74. They will say: "Praise be to Allah Who has truly fulfilled His promise to us and has given us (this) land in heritage: we can dwell in the Garden as we will: how excellent a reward for those who work (righteousness)!"
75. And thou wilt see the angels surrounding the Throne (Divine) on all sides saying Glory and Praise to their Lord. The Decision between them (at Judgment) will be in (perfect) justice. And the cry (on all sides) will be "Praise be to Allah the Lord of the Worlds!"
Surah: 41. Fussilat (Ha-Mim)
30. In the case of those who say "Our Lord is Allah" and further stand straight and steadfast the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!" (they suggest) "nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss) the which ye were promised!
31. "We are your protectors in this life and in the Hereafter: therein shall ye have all that your souls shall desire; therein shall ye have all that ye ask for!
Surah: 43. az-Zukhruuf
68. My devotees! no fear shall be on you that Day nor shall ye grieve
69. (Being) those who have believed in Our Signs and bowed (their wills to Ours) in Islam.
70. Enter ye the Garden ye and your wives in (beauty and) rejoicing.
71. To them will be passed round dishes and goblets of gold: there will be there all that the souls could desire all that the eyes could delight in: and ye shall abide therein (for aye).
72. Such will be the Garden of which ye are made heirs for your (good) deeds (in life).
73. Ye shall have therein abundance of fruit from which ye shall have satisfaction.
Surah: 44. ad-Dukhaan
51. As to the Righteous (they will be) in a position of Security
52. Among Gardens and Springs;
53. Dressed in fine silk and in rich brocade they will face each other;
54. So; and We shall Join them to Companions with beautiful big and lustrous eyes.
55. There can they call for every kind of fruit in peace and security;
56. Nor will they there taste Death except the first Death; and He will preserve them from the Penalty of the Blazing Fire
57. As a Bounty from thy Lord! That will be the supreme achievement!
Surah: 47. Muhammed (salla Allhu alaihi wa sallam)
15. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible: rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire and be given to drink boiling water so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?
Surah: 55. ar-Rahman
46. But for such as fear the time when they will stand before (the Judgment Seat of) their Lord there will be two Gardens
47. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
48. Containing all kinds (of trees and delights)
49. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
50. In them (each) will be two Springs flowing (free);
51. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
52. In them will be Fruits of every kind two and two.
53. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
54. They will recline on Carpets whose inner linings will be of rich brocade: the Fruit of the Gardens will be Near (and easy of reach).
55. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
56. In them will be (Maidens) Chaste restraining their glances whom no man or Jinn before them has touched
57. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
58. Like unto rubies and coral.
59. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
60. Is there any Reward for Good other than Good?
61. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
62. And besides these two there are two other Gardens
63. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
64. Dark green in color (from plentiful watering).
65. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
66. In them (each) will be two springs pouring forth water in continuous abundance:
67. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
68. In them will be Fruits and dates and pomegranates:
69. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
70. In them will be fair (companions) good beautiful
71. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
72. Companions restrained (as to their glances) in (goodly) pavilions
73. Then which of the favor of your Lord will ye deny?
74. Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched
75. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
76. Reclining on green Cushions and rich Carpets of beauty.
77. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
Surah: 56. al-Waaqi`ah
10. And those Foremost (in Faith) will be Foremost (in the Hereafter).
11. These will be those Nearest to Allah:
12. In Gardens of Bliss:
13. A number of people from those of old
14. And a few from those of later times.
15. (They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones).
16. Reclining on them facing each other.
17. Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness).
18. With goblets (shining) beakers and cups (filled) out of clear- flowing fountains:
19. No after-ache will they receive therefrom nor will they suffer intoxication:
20. And with fruits any that they may select;
21. And the flesh of fowls any that they may desire.
22. And (there will be) Companions with beautiful big and lustrous eyes- -
23. Like unto Pearls well-guarded.
24. A Reward for the Deeds of their past (Life).
25. No frivolity will they hear therein nor any taint of ill
26. Only the saying "Peace! Peace."
27. The Companions of the Right Hand what will be the Companions of the Right Hand?
28. (They will be) among lote trees without thorns
29. Among Talh trees with flowers (or fruits) piled one above another
30. In shade long-extended
31. By water flowing constantly
32. And fruit in abundance
33. Whose season is not limited nor (supply) forbidden
34. And on Thrones (of Dignity) raised high.
35. We have created (their Companions) of special creation.
36. And made them virgin-pure (and undefiled)
37. Beloved (by nature) equal in age
38. For the companions of the Right Hand.
39. A (goodly) number from those of old
40. And a (goodly) number from those of later times.
Surah: 69. al-Haaqqah
19. Then He that will be given his Record in his right hand will say: "Ah here! read ye my Record!
20. "I did really understand that my Account would (one Day) reach me!"
21. And he will be in a life of Bliss
22. In a Garden on high
23. The Fruits whereof (will hang in bunches) low and near.
24. "Eat ye and drink ye with full satisfaction; because of the (good) that ye sent before you in the days that are gone!"
Surah: 76. al-Insaan
5. As to the Righteous they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur
6. A Fountain where the Devotees of Allah do drink making it flow in unstinted abundance.
7. They perform (their) vows and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide.
8. And they feed for the love of Allah the indigent the orphan and the captive
9. (Saying) "We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: No reward do we desire from you nor thanks.
10. "We only fear a Day of distressful Wrath from the side of our Lord."
11. But Allah will deliver them from the evil of that Day and will shed over them a light of Beauty and a (blissful) Joy.
12. And because they were patient and constant He will reward them with a Garden and (garments of) silk.
13. Reclining in the (Garden) on raised thrones they will see there neither the sun's (excessive heat) nor (the moon's) excessive cold.
14. And the shades of the (Garden) will come low over them and the bunches (of fruit) there will hang low in humility.
15. And amongst them will be passed round vessels of silver and goblets of crystal
16. Crystal-clear made of silver: they will determine the measure thereof (according to their wishes).
17. And they will be given to drink there of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Zanjabil
18. A fountain there called Salsabil.
19. And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): if thou seest them thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls.
20. And when thou lookest it is there thou wilt see a Bliss and a Realm Magnificent.
21. Upon them will be green Garments of fine silk and heavy brocade and they will be adorned with Bracelets of silver; and their Lord will give to them to drink of a Wine Pure and Holy.
22. "Verily this is a Reward for you and your Endeavor is accepted and recognized."
Surah: 77. al-Mursalaat
41. As to the righteous, they shall be amidst (cool) shades and springs (of water)
42. And (they shall have) fruits, -all they desire.
43. "Eat ye and drink ye to your heart's content:For that ye worked (righteousness).
44. Thus do We certainly reward the doers of good.
Surah: 78.an-Naba'
31. Verily for the righteous there will be a fulfillment of (the Heart's) desires;
32. Gardens enclosed and Grape-vines;
33. Companions of Equal Age;
34. And a Cup full (to the Brim).
35. No Vanity shall they hear therein nor Untruth
36. Recompense from thy Lord a Gift (amply) sufficient
Surah: 83. at-Tatfeef
18. Nay verily the Record of the Righteous is (preserved) in `Illiyin.
19. And what will explain to thee what `Illiyin is?
20. (There is) a Register (fully) inscribed.
21. To which bear witness those Nearest (to Allah).
22. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss:
23. On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things):
24. Thou wilt recognize in their Faces the beaming brightness of Bliss.
25. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed:
26. The seal thereof will be Musk: and for this let those aspire who have aspirations:
27. With it will be (given) a mixture of Tasnim:
28. A spring from (the waters) whereof drink those Nearest to Allah.
Surah: 88. al-Ghaashiyah
8. Other) faces that Day will be joyful.
9. Pleased with their Striving
10. In a Garden on high
11. Where they shall hear no (word) of vanity:
12. Therein will be a bubbling spring:
13. Therein will be Thrones (of dignity) raised on high.
14. Goblets placed (ready).
15. And Cushions set in rows 16. And rich carpets (All) spread out.

40. But the sincere (and devoted) servants of Allah
41. For them is a Sustenance Determined
42. Fruits (Delights) and they (shall enjoy) honor and dignity.
43. In Gardens of Felicity.
44. Facing each other on Thrones (of dignity):
45. Round will be passed to them a Cup from a clear-flowing fountain
46. Crystal-white of a taste delicious to those who drink (thereof)
47. Free from headiness; nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom.
48. And beside them will be chaste women; restraining their glances with big eyes (of wonder and beauty).
49. As if they were (delicate) eggs closely guarded.
50. Then they will turn to one another and question one another.
51. One of them will start the talk and say: "I had an intimate companion (on the earth)
52. "Who used to say `What! art thou amongst those who bear witness to the truth (of the Message)?
53. " `When we die and become dust and bones shall we indeed receive rewards and punishments?'"
54. (A voice) said: "Would ye like to look down?"
55. He looked down and saw him in the midst of the Fire.
56. He said: "By Allah! thou wast little short of bringing me to perdition!
57. "Had it not been for the Grace of my Lord I should certainly have been among those brought (there)!
58. "Is it (the case) that we shall not die
59. "Except our first death and that we shall not be punished?"
60. Verily this is the supreme achievement!
61. For the like of this let all strive who wish to strive. Surah: 38. Saad

Jannah

Wibbs wrote: »

I just think it makes out that men are somehow uncontrolled beasts and that they have no restraint.

Yeah, I got that feeling myself a bit too- it seems kinda harsh on guys to assume that they have no self control. After all, isn't self control one of the main thing that seperates humans from animals? Segregation of men and women doesn't allow men to know women as human beings and not some kind of mysterious sex symbol. I just think its a little unnatural- everyday life involves the intergration of the sexes and its unrealistic to think that one can lead a normal life barricaded from the opposite sex

Wibbs wrote: »

I feel personally that the Islamic view a bit extreme, but that said the "western" view can sometimes be equally accused of being extreme. A middle ground would be nice. Hey I live in hope.

True- going to either extreme isn't good. People need to realise that the middle ground between being swamped in fabric and being dressed in a micro mini is the best way for society to go.

IamBeowulf wrote: »

I find it interesting that many faiths share the same view on sex: that it must be treated as if it were something to be ashamed of... Under the baking heat of the sun (not that we get much sun) they persist in their black clothing which I can only imagine, heats them up like crazy... A very possessive and insecure rule indeed.

I used to always think it was a matter of being ashamed of sex, but the more I learned about it the more I saw that religions value the act of sex so highly that they feel it should be saved for one's spouse alone. But yeah, no matter how 'light weight' people say the fabric is, long sleeves, head coverings and long pants/dresses are bound to be uncomfortable in hot weather. But when it comes down to it, it is a matter of choice (usually) and if someone feels it is necessary to cover, then they have every right to do so. Possessive and insecure? I wouldn't go that far, I'm sure it could apply to a percentage of people, but it would be a pretty harsh sweeping statement to make. I admire women who veil, but personally I don't think God particularly cares what we wear

StormWarrior

farrahk52 wrote: »

This life is a test and like with any test, it comes with it rules and regulations, no illicit sex on earth = plenty of sex in paradise where it will be more intense and it will be ETERNAL!.

Who do you have sex with in paradise, your husband or someone else?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Most reliable sources have told me Burkas are not prescibed in the Quran but a type of Islamic practice called Wahhabism. Osama Bin Laden's big into it.

The burka is clearly a tool of opression & control. I'm sure plenty of Irish men would love the idea of their girlfriend being completely covered but they know full well where they'd be told to go.

farrahk52 perhaps you have a very high sex drive but most women don't have a problem with lust without a burka. Sounds to me like you're so engaged with Islam that you're going to all extremes to be as Islamic as possible & convincing yourself it's the only way.

the_new_mr

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Perhaps you'll get to paradise but all evidence suggests it doesn't exist. So its pretty patronising of you to call the vast majority of people "filth"

I don't think she said that she called the vast majority of people filth. I think you'll find that she said:

farrahk52 wrote:

Sex is nothing to be ashamed of when done between a husband and wife. Outside of this, its filth.

I agree with that. The people themselves aren't necessarily filth but the act is wrong and there is no question of that in my mind.

I'm glad to hear that you're so into farrahk52. Although, like Bottle_of_Smoke says, the Burqa is not part of Islamic teaching (and arguably the niqab as well). I'm not sure just exactly how much covering up you're doing but I'm happy that you're happy with it and finding so much peace. It's important to not to go too much of a extreme or you might find that your spiritual "energy" is spent. There's an old hadith (as far as I know) of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) that talks of not moving too quickly and to instead take it step by step.

IamBeowulf wrote:

I find it interesting that many faiths share the same view on sex: that it must be treated as if it were something to be ashamed of. I would never insult a person's faith as I believe it touches the very core of one's soul and to attack it is to attack their soul...but I must admit that Christianity, Islam etc. are all very oppressive when it comes to indulging in one of life's purest pleasures.

I think if you read up a little, you'll find that the Islamic view of sex is not quite like other religions. As farrahk52 said, there's nothing to be ashamed of when it comes to sexual relations between a married couple. It should be enjoyed at it's meant to.

IamBeowulf wrote:

Women should be allowed to choose whether they cover up or not.

It seems that you're missing the point a bit. Most Muslim women that wear hijab wear hijab (about 99%) do so out of their own free will with the intention of pleasing God because they believe that God wants them to. Simple as that really. Although there are some who are forced to wear it, this is completely against Islamic teaching.

And, as farrahk52 has mentioned, it gives her a kind of freedom that not wearing just doesn't provide. There are also plenty of other women who view it as a feminist thing to do since it frees them up of society's expectancy of them to look stunning all the time and essentially be a bit of eye candy. It allows them to be appreciated for who they are and not just for what they wear.

farrahk52

farrahk52 perhaps you have a very high sex drive but most women don't have a problem with lust without a burka. Sounds to me like you're so engaged with Islam that you're going to all extremes to be as Islamic as possible & convincing yourself it's the only way.[/quote]

How high is high? theres a reason why many people sleep with multiple partners, their partners freinds, neighbours and even strangers they meet on a first night. STD's are soaring in the west, because people are engaging in these acts to fulfil their desires and lusts, why have one partner when you can have more?

If you become a slave to your whims and desires it will have dire consequences on you and society as a whole. I dont want to live in a single parent society. I dont think its right, but if men and women freely mix then this stuff will happen - its bound to happen we all have lusts and desires!. And although i generally agree just because a group of men and women freely mix it doesnt neccassarily mean they will get it on but alot of the time they will!. I know of freinds both male and female who have slept with people they dont even fancy (and they were sober!!).....WHY?

Because humans cant control their lusts as much as they think they can. You can have the purest of intentions but in a moment of weakness sleep with a freind. Its natural and if you dont follow the guidelines of dressing up fully and staying away from free mixing with the opposite sex you are encouraging a situation.

Islam stops everything at the root, it cuts of any poison before its starts emerging. Some people think its ok to free mix or some christians (my mates) think its ok to have a relationship with the opposite sex aslong as you dont have sex before marriage. Some will be successful but you cant say everyone will, Allah recognises this because he created us and so responsibly shuns free mixing.

How many single parent / fatherless asian / muslim families do you see compared to the west ?, wether these rules are portrayed via culture or religion they seem to have a beneficial outcome on society.

I know of 3 non muslim guys who've fathered 5-8 kids from different mothers and they dont get to see half of their children due to ex partners or they've moved away etc. Tell me something, would you like to be in those childrens shoes and not have a stable father figure around?.

Every single person makes a society and has a role to play. Having morals will definately have a great impact on you and on society as a whole. Its about time we took responsibility of our actions and look out for the human race by doing our bit to make it a better world, even if its by covering up and guarding our chastity.

farrahk52

StormWarrior wrote: »

Who do you have sex with in paradise, your husband or someone else?

'Therein shall ye have all that your souls shall desire; therein shall ye have all that ye ask for!'
Surah: 43. az-Zukhruuf

The quran mentions many times you will have ALL that you desire. The question is, will you desire more than your husband?, if so Allah promises it, if not then you wont!.

StormWarrior

If sleeping with people you are not married to is so dreadful in life, why is it ok in heaven?

StormWarrior

the_new_mr wrote: »

The people themselves aren't necessarily filth but the act is wrong and there is no question of that in my mind.

Just being married can't make it ok. I mean, if two people love each other and willingly have sex before marriage that's so dreadful, but if, say, a woman ends up forced into an arranged marriage and her husband has sex with her against her will, that's ok? I'm not just asking this from a muslim point of view, I know, in theory, that Islam says the woman should have the right to refuse to marry a particular man. My point is that at the end of the day, marriage is just a piece of paper, you can't generalise by saying sex outside of marriage is always wrong, but it's fine within marriage.

StormWarrior

farrahk52 wrote: »

'Therein shall ye have all that your souls shall desire; therein shall ye have all that ye ask for!'
Surah: 43. az-Zukhruuf

The quran mentions many times you will have ALL that you desire. The question is, will you desire more than your husband?, if so Allah promises it, if not then you wont!.

It seems that you believe people should deprive themselves of everything they want in this life, in the hope of getting it in the next. Why would Allah create the world in this way?

Hmmm.

I think an explanation of traditions is in order. If someone more learned than me in traditions can shed more light onto this, I'd be happy to concede points.

I beleive it all boils down to previous traditions. It's unfortunate that the wearing of hats by men in the west has gone out of fashion, as the customs in the tipping of hats would help establish that yes, there is a Western headwear code, much like the Eastern one.

The tipping of hats goes back to the old Middle Ages custom of removing one's helmet in the company of freinds, to show the bare head was a sign that the helmet-wearer trusted the people he was with, and others could look on his face and see whether he was a freind or foe. I time, the Royal Navy moved to the grabbing of the front of the hat as a salute, although the face was at this stage uncovered. It symbolised the wish to show respect, and kinship. This evolved into the military salute as we see it today. Out in Civilian land, men wore hats of different types through the ages, and it was only in the 1960s and 70s that men no longer wore hats (baseball caps don't count). therefore, the old traditions of tipping hats were kept on, until they were seen as "old" and "quaint".

In recent years, the only faces covered in the street were by those wearing a balaclava on their way to or from a crime, and the sight would strike fear into anyone who saw it up close, as invariably balaclava wearers were threatening to either rob or kill you. Western people associated covered faces with mistrust, attempts to disguise, conceal, corrupt, hide.

I don't say yay or nay, but I thought I'd add a bit of a niggling point.

And can we leave the judging of people to the God/Allah of Abraham please? Only He would be able to decide the righteousness or not of a person. Not us mere humans.

(Declaraton of interests: I'm Catholic, but great beleiver in the right of every man woman and child to do what they wish, as long as they do not prevent another from doing as he/she wishes)

farrahk52

Stormwarrior,

The mere act of sleeping with someone is not sinful itself, infact it’s a blessed act (as is holding your wifes hand or letting her rest her head on your shoulders or putting your arm around her or infact any act of love) when done with a husband or wife (in Islam). It is haram / forbidden outside of marriage because Allah tells us so and because he created us, he knows whats best for us. It’s a rule for a test pertaining to this life only and probably exists to stop the destruction of the family unit and society as a whole. Its a reward in paradise / jannah as its enjoyable. Theres alot to be said for celibacy, it purifies you and makes you stronger. How many people do you know that find it difficult to say no? Even joseph (pbuh) was tested by this trial when the beautiful wife of his master tried to seduce him, did he give in? how many men would have said no in his situation?

22. When Joseph attained his full manhood, We gave him power and knowledge: thus do We reward those who do right. But she in whose house he was, sought to seduce him, and she fastened the doors, and said: "Now come!" He said: "Allah forbid! truly (thy husband) is my lord! he made my sojourn agreeable! truly to no good come those who do wrong!" . And (with passion) did she desire him, and he would have desired her, but that he saw the evidence of his Lord: thus (did We order) that We might turn away from him (all) evil and indecent deeds: for he was one of Our servants, chosen. So they both raced each other to the door, and she tore his shirt from the back: they both found her lord near the door. She said: "What is the (fitting) punishment for one who formed an evil design against thy wife, but prison or a grievous chastisement?" He said: "It was she that sought to seduce me - from my (true) self." And one of her household saw (this) and bore witness, (thus):- "If it be that his shirt is rent from the front, then is her tale true, and he is a liar!
"But if it be that his shirt is torn from the back, then is she the liar, and he is telling the truth!"
So when he saw his shirt,- that it was torn at the back,- (her husband) said: "Behold! It is a snare of you women! truly, mighty is your snare! "O Joseph, pass this over! (O wife), ask forgiveness for thy sin, for truly thou hast been at fault!"
Ladies said in the City: "The wife of the (great) Aziz is seeking to seduce her slave. Truly hath he inspired her with violent love: we see she is evidently going astray."
When she heard of their malicious talk, she sent for them and prepared a banquet for them: she gave each of them a knife: and she said (to Joseph), "Come out before them." When they saw him, they did extol him, and (in their amazement) cut their hands: they said, "Allah preserve us! no mortal is this! this is none other than a noble angel!"
She said: "There before you is the man about whom ye did blame me! I did seek to seduce him from his (true) self but he did firmly save himself guiltless! ...and now, if he doth not my bidding, he shall certainly be cast into prison, and (what is more) be of the company of the vilest!"
He said: "O my Lord! the prison is dearer to my liking than that to which they invite me: unless Thou turn away their snare from me, I should feel inclined towards them and join the ranks of the ignorant." So his Lord hearkened to him (in his prayer), and turned away from him their snare: Verily He heareth and knoweth (all things).

In the end as muslims we believe that Allahs guidance is best as he created us. Say for eg a manufacturer creates a VCR, only he knows what its functions are and how it should be operated and the specifics, you wouldn’t ask another manufacturer of a brand what its specifics are would you? Similiarly in Islam we don’t follow man made rules as a man will most likely make rules to benefit himself to the detriment of a woman, a woman to a man, a white man to a black and an able bodied person to a disabled person –who’s laws/ guidance should we follow?

71... Say: "Allah's guidance is the (only) guidance and we have been directed to submit ourselves to the Lord of the worlds;

Nay the wrong-doers (merely) fellow their own lusts being devoid of knowledge. But who will guide those whom Allah leaves astray? 30:29

Whoever goes aright, for his own soul does he go aright; and whoever goes astray, to its detriment only does he go astray: nor can the bearer of a burden bear the burden of another, nor do We chastise until We raise an apostle.
17.15

Is he then to whom the evil of his conduct is made alluring so that he looks upon it as good (equal to one who is rightly guided)? For Allah leaves to stray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. So let not thy soul go out in (vainly) sighing after them: for Allah knows well all that they do! 35:8

By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it, and its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right--Truly he succeeds that purifies it, and he fails that corrupts it!" (91:7-10)


Guidance isn’t only for the layman but FOR ALL HUMANS, we ALL need guidance even the PROPHETS were guided :-

163 Lo! We inspire thee (Muhammad) as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as we imparted unto David the Psalms; And messengers We have mentioned unto thee before and messengers We have not mentioned unto thee; and Allah spake directly unto Moses;
Messengers of good cheer and off warning, in order that mankind might have no argument against Allah after the messengers. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

84 And We bestowed upon him Isaac and Jacob; each of them We guided; and Noah did We guide aforetime; and of his seed (We guided) David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the good. And Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias. Each one (of them) was of the righteous. And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot. Each one of them did We prefer above (Our) creatures.

Marriage is not just a piece of paper (that’s what some men tell you!) it holds weight and has responsibility and accountability. A marriage contract in the eyes of God is a religious symbol blessed by Him, its witnessed by other people, it holds accountability and people do feel responsible. Just like we have a contract for other important transactions in our lives such as for loans, jobs, business deals etc we have a contract for marriage. It can be argued that bringing stable children into the world would be more important than getting a mortgage or a business deal!. Unfortunately most men (esp in the west) don’t like responsibility and women tend to demand marriage – they are the intelligent ones because they know if the husband cheats they can take half his assets thus making him responsible and accountable. It’s a sorry state of affairs but Allah knows that people will try and dodge responsibility as much as they can and when it comes to the family unit, it should not be taken lightly.

Life is a TEST, and as in any test there is a reward and punishment system at the end of it. Following rules, striving hard = rewards, just as revising hard for an exam = good results. Not abiding by the rules / failing = punishment. If you were God would you construct a test with no rules (thus nullifying it by its definition) and then rewarding everyone despite wether they passed or not? Would you pass everyone on their exams if they failed to get any answers correct?

Allah's Apostle said, "The (Hell) Fire is surrounded by all kinds of desires and lusts, while Paradise is surrounded by all kinds of disliked [and] undesirable things." [Sahih Bukhari Volume 8]. Meaning that its easy to go to hell and difficult to go to paradise. Generally, it goes like this, the greater the test the better the reward. The stronger the faith the harder the test.

"Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good, by way of trial. To Us must you return." (21:35)

“He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed; And He is the Exalted in Might, oft-Forgiving.” (Al-Quran 67:2)

“And know that your possessions and your children are a test…” Quran 8:28

“And we have appointed some of you a test for others...” (Quran 25:20)

*{And We shall test you with some of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and fruits; but give glad tidings to the steadfast. Who, when a misfortune befalls them, say: Surely, to Allah we belong and to Him we shall surely return. Such are they on whom are blessings and mercy from their Lord. Such are the rightly guided.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:155–157})

"Every soul shall have a taste of death: and only on the Day of Judgement shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved from the fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of Life)" (3:185)

I strongly suggest you read the quran, you can get it from most high street bookshops, if you dont want to buy one you can read one online at :-

http://www.harunyahya.com/Quran_translation/Quran_translation_index.php

panda100

Some of the responses here,from whom I presume are muslim women are a bit worrying! I see no problem with women wearing the hijab/burka for their OWN religious reason but not to please men!

Zanza wrote: »

Anyway, all in all, islam protected women by getting covered so that they won't be like a sex object. We all know that women are the most beautiful creature on earth *innocent look*; men 'like' women pretty fast for their attractiveness, so beside protecting women, it ease up the attractiveness part for the men (if you ever saw 40 Days & 40 Nights you might understand what I mean).

As a heterosexual women,and Im sure muslim heterosexual women would agree, I believe men are the most beautiful creatures on earth.We both have exactly the same sexual urges so why do men need help in restraining themsleves and women need 'protecting'?? Its a very misogynistic view to have.

farrahk52

Panda

What man would want to see women all covered up ? If we all have THE SAME sexual urges and basically are made up of the same stuff shouldnt we all want to see sexy men and women all the time?. Ofcourse we do, but we choose not to because of our religion. Admittedly some cultures have taken it on board to protect themselves from the 'evil western' influence and men go around shunning women who dont cover up but this seldom happens in the west. Presumably they dont want a society that goes around fornicating, full of binge drinkers with fatherless kids displaying antisocial behaviour.

I agree with you, women can have the same sexual urges, as in the story of joseph (pbuh) i have pasted above. It was a woman or women who tried to seduce him, not the other way round, infact Allah mentions both of them had the same urges!.

The ONLY problem is that men can go one step further as they are physcially more stronger and can rape a woman, whereas women are less likely to. Its just a fact that most men are physically stronger - whens the last time you heard of a woman raping a man?. I am no way condoning it no matter what the woman chooses to wear, i could say if people cant handle their sexual urges thats THEIR problem, but as a society we should be looking at tackling and resolving these issues together.

Men are told to lower their gaze, dress modestly and guard their chastity in the quran so not to look at women and also not to freely mix with them which i think is a darn good preventative measure, probably not to everyones liking though!.

I am sick to the back teeth of western women/men always accusing muslim women of dressing according to what their husbands or men want when its the VERY WOMEN who dress to PLEASE MEN, with their fake tans, crop tops, midriffs exposed, mini skirts, make -up caked on in layers ...the list is endless...you only have to look at how hot fashion magazines are LOL. Please dont tell me you dress like that for yourselves - i used to say that ALL THE TIME. None of us would dress like that if we stayed home all day by OURSELVES, we would still be in pyjamas!.

Looking back i know i dressed for other people, mainly men, i loved getting attention from them it made me feel good. I was like this uncontrollable fashion freak controlled by fake whims and desires who had to get the next best dress or shoes. My life was a meaningless hoax, it would be quite funny had it not been so tragic. I feel I am so free without all that fake meaningless CRAP going on in my head. When i look at women who dress for men (or themselves lol) i feel sorry for them, im sure when they see me they feel the same although they shouldnt because this is THE BEST THING thats ever happend to me, i really love my burka (i dont wear the face covering though, i dont think i would ever wear that). For the 1st time in my life i know who i am, where im going and what everythings REALLY about.

Jannah

farrahk52 wrote: »

Presumably they dont want a society that goes around fornicating, full of binge drinkers with fatherless kids displaying antisocial behaviour.

I hear this a lot from many muslims online and really, they are taking the western culture to extremes. This is very much in the minority and there's no use in going to the COMPLETE opposite and thinking that life would be better. And may I add, fatherless kids, fornication... its a problem of ALL societies, not just western.

farrahk52 wrote: »

its the VERY WOMEN who dress to PLEASE MEN, with their fake tans, crop tops, midriffs exposed, mini skirts, make -up caked on in layers ...the list is endless...you only have to look at how hot fashion magazines are LOL.

once again, you have taken the 'big bad west' to extremes. Just because women in magazines don't wear hijabs doesn't make them any less pious, any less modest or any less beautiful. If that's how they like to present themselves, then I see absolutely no reason why not. Its snobbery to insist that they are 'wrong' and only hijabis are 'right'

farrahk52 wrote: »

Looking back i know i dressed for other people, mainly men, i loved getting attention from them it made me feel good. I was like this uncontrollable fashion freak controlled by fake whims and desires who had to get the next best dress or shoes. My life was a meaningless hoax, it would be quite funny had it not been so tragic. I feel I am so free without all that fake meaningless CRAP going on in my head. When i look at women who dress for men (or themselves lol) i feel sorry for them, im sure when they see me they feel the same although they shouldnt because this is THE BEST THING thats ever happend to me, i really love my burka (i dont wear the face covering though, i dont think i would ever wear that). For the 1st time in my life i know who i am, where im going and what everythings REALLY about.

Saying that you feel sorry for these women is possibly one of the most condescending things I have read online for a long time. How dare you judge these women without even knowing them first? One thing you should learn is that generalisations are ALWAYS false. There is a middle ground- a grey area, believe it or not, between dressing in a provocative manner and being very, very conservative. Where ever a woman chooses to place herself is her own choice and it shouldn't make her any less of a moral woman which ever path she chooses. While this may have been your experience of life and how you like to dress, I do believe that the middle ground between the two extremes is the one which I would personally choose.

the_new_mr

It's not usually my style to post without reading all the previous posts but there's just too much.

Just something that I wanted to comment on:
The real "reason" why women are to cover up more than men is not really known (as far as I know). We can only speculate.

On this speculation, I would strongly disagree that the reason is because men are stronger and can rape women if they want to. Men are not animals.

I believe that (and I believe that scientific studies into the psychological reasons for sexual attraction will back me up on this), men are more visually driven when it comes to sexual arousal whereas women are not (as they are more emotionally driven). That's not to say that women don't find men physically attractive. Just that men are affected more by it.

And, it's not just that either. It's mainly about women being modest. Women in Islam don't wear the stuff for the men. They wear it because God wants them to wear it. Plain and simple. Because God wants them to be modest. If you're not wearing tight fitting clothes or whatever then you're not showing off your body etc which helps you to be modest and get rid of your ego.

It's a huge topic.

But please sister farrahk52, I'd urge to read up a little and think about it a bit. Your conviction in faith is commendable and I always like to see someone so solid in their beliefs. Not only that,, but I believe that your attitude towards how wearing hijab has set you free of society in this way is spot on but please don't justify it in some of the other ways you are. It's not correct.

the_new_mr

Okay, I've read all the posts now.

My opinion is still the same but I think that farrahk52 has a lot of correct ideas and I'm with her on about 90% of what she's saying.

Jannah

farrahk52 wrote: »

i really love my burka (i dont wear the face covering though, i dont think i would ever wear that)

? I don't think thats a burka if it doesn't have a face covering

hivizman

Jannah wrote: »

? I don't think thats a burka if it doesn't have a face covering

There are some pictures and explanations of different Muslim women's head coverings at Why Muslim Women Wear the Veil (scroll down and click on the graphics box). I understand that the word 'burqa' is used in Saudi Arabia for a niqab (the one where the lower face is covered and only the eyes are showing) with a 'nose string' that restricts how much of the eyes are exposed to the public.

Jannah

hivizman wrote: »

There are some pictures and explanations of different Muslim women's head coverings at Why Muslim Women Wear the Veil (scroll down and click on the graphics box). I understand that the word 'burqa' is used in Saudi Arabia for a niqab (the one where the lower face is covered and only the eyes are showing) with a 'nose string' that restricts how much of the eyes are exposed to the public.

Yeah, I know, thats why I'm wondering how a burqa could be a burqa if one doesn't cover their face. I think she means to say something along the lines of a chador or the like, but certainly not a burqa

panda100

farrahk52 wrote: »

Panda

What man would want to see women all covered up ? If we all have THE SAME sexual urges and basically are made up of the same stuff shouldnt we all want to see sexy men and women all the time?. Ofcourse we do, but we choose not to because of our religion. Admittedly some cultures have taken it on board to protect themselves from the 'evil western' influence and men go around shunning women who dont cover up but this seldom happens in the west. Presumably they dont want a society that goes around fornicating, full of binge drinkers with fatherless kids displaying antisocial behaviour.

I agree with you, women can have the same sexual urges, as in the story of joseph (pbuh) i have pasted above. It was a woman or women who tried to seduce him, not the other way round, infact Allah mentions both of them had the same urges!.

The ONLY problem is that men can go one step further as they are physcially more stronger and can rape a woman, whereas women are less likely to. Its just a fact that most men are physically stronger - whens the last time you heard of a woman raping a man?. I am no way condoning it no matter what the woman chooses to wear, i could say if people cant handle their sexual urges thats THEIR problem, but as a society we should be looking at tackling and resolving these issues together.

Men are told to lower their gaze, dress modestly and guard their chastity in the quran so not to look at women and also not to freely mix with them which i think is a darn good preventative measure, probably not to everyones liking though!.

I am sick to the back teeth of western women/men always accusing muslim women of dressing according to what their husbands or men want when its the VERY WOMEN who dress to PLEASE MEN, with their fake tans, crop tops, midriffs exposed, mini skirts, make -up caked on in layers ...the list is endless...you only have to look at how hot fashion magazines are LOL. Please dont tell me you dress like that for yourselves - i used to say that ALL THE TIME. None of us would dress like that if we stayed home all day by OURSELVES, we would still be in pyjamas!.

Looking back i know i dressed for other people, mainly men, i loved getting attention from them it made me feel good. I was like this uncontrollable fashion freak controlled by fake whims and desires who had to get the next best dress or shoes. My life was a meaningless hoax, it would be quite funny had it not been so tragic. I feel I am so free without all that fake meaningless CRAP going on in my head. When i look at women who dress for men (or themselves lol) i feel sorry for them, im sure when they see me they feel the same although they shouldnt because this is THE BEST THING thats ever happend to me, i really love my burka (i dont wear the face covering though, i dont think i would ever wear that). For the 1st time in my life i know who i am, where im going and what everythings REALLY about.

I actually do agree with a lot of what your saying. I think its disgusting how much of a commodity the female body has become in western culture.I have felt violated many times when someone has pinched my ass on a night out or wofl whisteld at me when walking down the street,this type of violation would never happen to an Irish man.

However,this doesnt mean I think the soloution is to cover myself up and hide from the world. I think there needs to be a fundamental change of how women are viewed in society.That the focus is taken away from our bodies and focuses on who we are so for once we will be on an equal footing to men.

I dont think the fact that men are stronger leads to more rapes. Im 6'1' and a lot stronger than many men I know.That doesnt make me any more prone to going out and raping someone. I think it must be so tough being a man in this world who constantly have sex and female bodys thrust in their face wether this be page 3,adverts or music videos. I think the way womens bodys are viewed as a sex symbol for male consumption has a huge effect on the way men view women,as more of a disposbale comodity than someone with the ability for independent thought and action. I think hijab or no hijab, rape and violence towards women will always remain commonplace in a society where so much focus is placed on what women look like and the sexual objectifcation of our bodies is freely allowed by the media.

There was a very good letter in the Times today,which I think backs up a lot of whats being said on this thread.That wearing the hijab has little to do with God but to please the male dominated muslim heirarchy.

' Ms O'Brien also contends that the wearing of the hijab is about preserving womens modesty.I taught in Saudia Arabia for two years with muslim women,not only from Saudi,but from Egypt,The lebanon,Syria,the UK and the US, and we had intresting discussions on many topics including the covering of women.The consensus was that the wearing of the abayah,the hijab and the niqab was more to do with the fact that men couldnt control-and were not expected to control-their sexual urges,than with womens modesty. Intrestingly,women must uncover their faces when they go to Mecca,to face God.'

the_new_mr

I don't agree with what's in that letter. Men are of course expected to control to their sexual urges. It's in the Quran and hadith.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying about the way women have become objectified in modern western society. It's completely disgusting. And although I know that you don't think that covering up is some kind of solution, I'm sure you can see the point about how the hijab empowers the woman wearing it and how it demands respect for her intellect rather than just being ogled at for her body.

panda100 wrote:

I think it must be so tough being a man in this world who constantly have sex and female bodys thrust in their face wether this be page 3,adverts or music videos.

Appreciate the sympathy You have no idea how hard it can be. It's not easy for a guy to lower his gaze when it's just all over the place. All we can do is try. What shocks me is that so many women are actually supportive of all of this saying that it's about independence from men etc. I can't help but feel that a lot of women have been tricked or something. I just don't know how those women who dance the way they do in hip-hop videos are happy with it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

panda100 wrote: »

As a heterosexual women,and Im sure muslim heterosexual women would agree, I believe men are the most beautiful creatures on earth.We both have exactly the same sexual urges so why do men need help in restraining themsleves and women need 'protecting'?? Its a very misogynistic view to have.

No we don't & there's a very good reason for it. Men have nothing to lose from sex/pregnancy but a small amount of semen, with which they can produce in a few hours. Women on the other hand have to put a lot of energy into bringing up a child. They also have a shorter timespan for fertility & a far more limited amount of ovaries compared with sperm for men.

Therefore a women who has more control over her urges is less likely to pick a poor partner & get impregnated. So if she waits & chooses a better partner her baby stands a better chance of surving & having a family of its own, and her genes get passed on. Doesn't matter for men because a pregnancy has no influence on their ability to have children with a better mother figure.

Assuming Islam is the truth I would imagine this could be a factor in Allah deciding women should have stricter clothing requirements. I don't know if Allah thinks in a similar manner as humans of course

It's an interesting topic, I would say a niqab is an out & out tool of opression but I previously would have said the same about a burqa, and farrahk shows that's clearly not the case.

Headscarves & modest clothes though, can completely understand that alright. Though I think that only really happened after I knew a female Muslim in college who wore a headscarf & became aware she was the last person in the world who'd put up with any oppression. So can understand a lot of the misconceptions. I suppose this shows how integration really is the only answer. If everyone knew a Muslim girl in school who wore a headscarf there probably wouldn't be so many misconceptions.

While slightly off-topic, anyone else ever think about the way Sikh men are never described as oppressed by their wives for being required to wear a Turban?
Kind of suggests the opposition to female Muslims observing hijab by western women is another example of over-zealous feminist ignorance.

Jannah

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

anyone else ever think about the way Sikh men are never described as oppressed by their wives for being required to wear a Turban?

No, hijabs and turbans are quite different. Hijab means not only covering their hair also every other part of their body except for their hands in long loose clothing. Sikh men aren't by any means required to do this. If anything, the turban is simply practical because, since Sikhs choose not to cut or in any way remove their hair, their hair grows extremely long and it is simply easier to put it into a turban. There's also the aspect of it being there to retain his dignity and show his religiousity, which I suppose would be similar to hijab. The difference is that women who wear hijab aren't supposed to take it off in front of males who aren't related or their husbands, while Sikh men can pretty much do whatever they want with their turban, so long as they don't cut the hair underneath. I think its the whole idea of men not being allowed to see the woman without a hijab that makes people think that she is being opressed. There's also the fact that in a minority of Muslim countries its illegal for a woman to be seen in public without hijab which is very unfair and it is pretty obvious that people would see this as opressive to a woman who is born in that country and must follow the law and cover.

Bottle_of_Smoke

What? I didn't say they were the same.

And Sikhs are required to wear them. They're also required to not cut their hair.

blackthorn

Hi Jannah, I would have sent you this link by PM but that's not working. It's a blog I enjoy a lot and I think it might be useful to let you see how hijab wearing women talk about it among ourselves. It might be no harm to get beyond the theory around hijab and see the practical living of it for women today.

http://hijabstyle.blogspot.com/

Jannah

I'll never understand why some hijabis wear so much make-up... doesn't that just completely undermine the whole idea of modesty and stopping men from looking at them? I once talked to an Egyptian hijabi online and she said that its a way of 'compensating' for having to cover hair...

blackthorn

I'll venture to say they wear it for the same reason non hijabi women wear it, because it helps them feel confident. Others don't wear it, but eyeliner is acceptable Islamically.

Jannah

Well it could also be said that non-Muslim women feel more confident when wearing sexy and attractive clothing, couldn't it? It just seems like a contradiction to cover one's hair as a way of concealing beauty only to make up one's face to such an extent, but its up to the person themselves what they choose to do

blackthorn

I might have agreed with you a few years ago and said 'what's the point of wearing hijab if they're going to wear make up?!' but I don't feel like that anymore. Maybe it's the mellowing of years or experience, but I'm not going to be hard on someone who wears hijab out in the world today. A lot of times its a countercultural thing to do and it can be difficult. They are also up against the same messages from the media of what women are supposed to dress like, and the peer pressure, and they are trying to negotiate all that while living their religion. And everyone is at a different point in their journey of faith so to speak. So I would be inclined to go easy on them, and not expect perfection and I would hope for the same for myself.

farrahk52

farrahk52 wrote: »

I AM SO HAPPY because i feel so content and peaceful, something i never knew was possible
...
I DESPERATELY WANT PARADISE, this life isn't all its cracked up to be. o be grown, looked after, eventually we are all going to die sooner or later!, this is how i see life, we are born, have some good times, have some bad times and then we die. WHATS THE POINT?

Eh, what? You don't sound happy or content at all.