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Why do women have to wear Burkas?

I not being anti-Muslim or anything, ok? But it is in my opinion that the whole wearing of the berka (the whole veil for the body) is quite disturbing and un-natural. Why don't males wear this so other women can't have attraction and impure thoughts? I think it is possible that many of the males they are sexist.

Also, how come Muslim women in berkas can walk into shops and banks when people wearing motorbike helmets have to take them off due to sercurity purposes. What about in airports, court, etc. also?

I believe that Muslims and others should have to integrate into Irish society. There is no other country in the world with Irish culture so I think Ireland should change only little bit regarding religion but not totally so I don't believe that Muslim women should be allowed to wear berkas in public places. If a non-Muslim Irish female were to go over to a strict Arabic country like Iraq and not cover up, she'd be in big trouble and may be arrested so I think that immigrants coming here should have to adjust to our way of life like we would have to if we went to their country.

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Hobbes

I've moved your post out of the other thread as it is a seperate topic that is certainly worth having discussion about.

how come Muslim women in berkas can walk into shops and banks when people wearing motorbike helmets have to take them off due to sercurity purposes. What about in airports, court, etc.

I believe that is freedom of religon? Although I'd like to hear a breakdown on how it is handled at airports. I believe there are allowances made (similar to doctors).

There is no other country in the world with Irish culture

America has more Irish then Ireland. There are areas in America more *Irish* then the Irish.

so I think that immigrants coming here should have to adjust to our way of life like we would have to if we went to their country.

So we have laws that strictly forbid the use of facewear in public? News to me.

You could certainly chance your arm at refusing them into shops/banks but there are already Muslim banks/shops or there will always be another shop that will take the money.

Also you talk about immigrants? What has that to do with it? What about Irish people who are already Muslim (both of Irish + forigen decent?).

Zanza

UU wrote:

If a non-Muslim Irish female were to go over to a strict Arabic country like Iraq and not cover up, she'd be in big trouble and may be arrested so I think that immigrants coming here should have to adjust to our way of life like we would have to if we went to their country.

lol, that is so not true! Wearing "Burkas" are for thoes who are very religious or thoes women who are supposed to have a very attracting 'face'. Even if a woman didn't wear the "hair cover" alone she wont get into trouble (except in KSA).
Women won't be in trouble if they don't wear their "hair cover" (hijab), rules in the countries (islamic of course!) has nothing to do with the "hijab" and will not punish them. But in the after life God will (said so in the Quraan).

if someone could help me and bring a qoute of this if possible ^^;

Wibbs

I think Qadri covered the religious position in this post; http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50349031&postcount=39

It does strike me as a bit of a strange one though. It seems to suggest that a woman will inflame a man's passions too much if he sees too much of her form. It kinda makes out that men have no control over their baser emotions.While many would say it's out of respect for the woman, it could be used to limit womens freedom far too much IMHO. The far eastern version that just has the headscarf appears to be far less restrictive. That said a micro skirt and 6 inch heels are most likely just as restrictive

Zanza, I'm not so sure about the bit about just covering up the women with attractive faces. I think many would think the opposite more welcome...

Zanza

Well, of course many have different openions. Heck, even some people say that islam is "old fasion" and now we are in the new millinum so we have to act like it and crap like that.
Anyway, all in all, islam protected women by getting covered so that they won't be like a sex object. We all know that women are the most beautiful creature on earth *innocent look*; men 'like' women pretty fast for their attractiveness, so beside protecting women, it ease up the attractiveness part for the men (if you ever saw 40 Days & 40 Nights you might understand what I mean).

Wibbs

Ok, but can men not be "sex objects" too? I mean there's enough women out there mooning over posters of G Clooney et al. Why are they not veiled? Just a thought.

Zanza

I don't think I can find a man to be "that sexy" that it get me worked up..

Do you mind explaining that bit more please? My english isn't that strong

What did you men why are they not veiled? The posters?

Wibbs

Well I don't know about others, but I can safely say that the sight of a woman's leg doesn't get me too worked up(well mostly anyway

). Women can get just as worked up sometimes. I just think it makes out that men are somehow uncontrolled beasts and that they have no restraint.

My English isn't so strong either(many many many times better than my Arabic though). I just think it is... Which is worse

Zanza

hehe, yeah, I know what you mean.. ;p

Well, actually its that both men and women should be wearing 'decent' clothing. Tight jeans is a no-no because you can see how built the man is, just like how you would see how women are thin/fat :P

Islam didn't make women get covered more than men should.. the only difference is that women should cover their hair (and face sometimes) while men don't.. I am not sure what to do if the man had a 'sexy' facial, but that brings an another issue which is not looking to the opposite sex; try to avoid it as much as possible..!

Wibbs

Zanza wrote:

...but that brings an another issue which is not looking to the opposite sex; try to avoid it as much as possible..!

I'm afraid I can't say the same. I'm a terrible heathen anyway so no surprise there.:D

I do agree with you with regard to the unhealthy attention to beauty in society. I feel personally that the Islamic view a bit extreme, but that said the "western" view can sometimes be equally accused of being extreme. A middle ground would be nice. Hey I live in hope.

lazydaisy

I think its kind of flattering that there are men who find us women so hot that they think we need to be covered up, not that I would cover myself up, but the very idea of that makes me feel a little powerful. It confesses that female sexuality is very powerful and that men are afraid of it.

However, I thought that the whole headscarf custom came from the fact that in arabic countries the sun is so strong that women wore these things to protect their skin and hair. And now women wear it because they feel vulnerable without it?

Wibbs

One explanation I heard, was that in the time of the Prophet, wealthy women were veiled as a status thing and that prostitutes and the like advertised their services by being uncovered and showing their hair. Anyone else have the historical view on this?

Blub2k4

Wibbs wrote:

One explanation I heard, was that in the time of the Prophet, wealthy women were veiled as a status thing and that prostitutes and the like advertised their services by being uncovered and showing their hair. Anyone else have the historical view on this?

This is quite possibly the case, I do know that male prostitutes in KSA roll up the bottom few inches of their thobe to make it obvious that they are plying their trade, thus also exposing a bit of leg, this would fit in with the idea that both men and women are supposed to cover up to retain their dignity.

r3boot

there is no refernce in the quoran or the prohpets sayings in relation to burkas for all muslim women therefore I see no reason for them ....

Victor

UU wrote:

Also, how come Muslim women in berkas can walk into shops and banks when people wearing motorbike helmets have to take them off due to sercurity purposes.

If theres a pattern of burka wearing women robbing banks then fair enough, but is there such a pattern?

Of course, the helmet thing is only to control [strike]gurriers[/strike] couriers having their radios turned up to max.

Of course, in the Taliban scheme of things, women wouldn't be allowed into banks.

In Saudi Arabia, there are probably separate banks for women.

What about in airports, court, etc. also?

Female security can deal with females wearing burkas.

RekcaH

i resent the gurrier bit...! ..ex-courier here..

wait til i tell DotC :v:

and couriers gotta take their helmets off for security reasons...i would think that was obvious...the radio volume would be a secondary, less important reason... just so ya know.. ..most radios have the clarity of a speaker underwater..

..its a risk potential thing.. as in not allowing people cover their face lowers it..
or of someone religious (or not) person exploiting that risk..

not that religious views shouldnt be respected..

Hamza

Salaamoalaikum !
This is in relation to the question of burka, the veil some muslim women wear.
Please be advised that the 'burka' is NOT something proposed in the islamic tests. It is something some people chose to continue to wear as tradition, long practised culture etc. why this should be understood is that many people come to the conclusion that islam is unjust and suppressive towards women. There are cultural reasons why burka was adapted by certain muslim societies. Please Remember certain cultural practises in many muslim countries are not necessarily islamic. Thanku for bringing up the issue. Please feel free to ask any further questions
allrestless74@hotmail.com

farrahk52

Women dont cover up because men tell us to but because of what God tells us in the quran. Think about it, what man wouldnt want to see a sexy unclad woman?.

I've only started wearing the burka recently, im a British muslim - was born and bred here. I used to get guys looking at me and i didnt mind the fit ones, until i started reading the quran when i realised it was impure and i wanted to be pure and righteous. To be honest i was extremely lustful towards good looking men and part of me loved it when they reciprocated and part of me felt alittle violated?. It felt like i was fornicating but with my eyes. I love covering up, its changed me, im no longer this obsessed lustful person trying to chase fit men at every available opportunity. I dont have these feelings anymore, Im really peaceful now, i never knew such peace or serenity existed!. It has top be mentioned that we all have sexual instincts and some of us need to control them more than others. Its forbidden for men to show anything from their naval to their knees and women to show anything apart from their face and hands. I tried the dressing modestly but showing my hair and i didnt feel any different. I only felt peace and serenity when i covered up totally.

Pls take a look at the following verses / quotes from the quran or hadiths (sayings) of the prophet pbuh. These should answer the question adequately, have also included other stuff about women in islam FYI.

31. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
Holy Quran (Surah al-baqarah)

'Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Truly Allah is Cognizan of what they do.' Holy Qur'an (24:30).[28]

Spiritual Equality of Women and Men
Allah has got ready forgiveness and tremendous rewards for the Muslim men and women; the believing men and women; the devout men and women; the truthful men and women; the patiently suffering men and women; the humble men and women; the almsgiving men and women; the fasting men and women, the men and women who guard their chastity; and the men and women who are exceedingly mindful of Allah. (Al-Ahzab 33:35)

Attitudes towards women
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. (An-Nisa 4:19)

Collaboration and consultation
The believing men and women, are associates and helpers of each other. They (collaborate) to promote all that is beneficial and discourage all that is evil; to establish prayers and give alms, and to obey Allah and his Messenger. Those are the people whom Allah would grant mercy. Indeed Allah is Mighty and Wise. (Al-Taubah 9:71)

On the Treatment of Women
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: I went to the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) and asked him: "What do you say (command) about our wives?" He replied: "Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them." (Sunan Abu Dawud: Book 11, Number 2139) "The best of you is one who is best towards his family and I am best towards the family". (At-Tirmithy). "None but a noble man treats women in an honourable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully". (At-Tirmithy).

A Husband must keep the Privacy of his Wife
Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: Allah's Messenger (peace_be_upon_him) said: The most wicked among the people in the eye of Allah on the Day of Judgement is the man who goes to his wife and she comes to him, and then he divulges her secret. (Muslim Book 8, Number 3369)

The Prophet's Disapproval of Women Beaters
Patient behavior was the practice of the Prophet, even when his wife dared to address him harshly. Once his mother-in-law- saw her daughter strike him with her fist on his chest. When the enraged mother -in-law began to reproach her daughter, the Prophet smilingly said, "Leave her alone; they do worse than that." And once Abu Bakr, his father-in-law, was invited to settle some misunderstanding between him and Aishah. The Prophet said to her, "Will you speak, or shall I speak?" Aisha said, "You speak, but do not say except the truth." Abu Bakr was so outraged that he immediately struck her severely, forcing her to run and seek protection behind the back of the Prophet. Abu Bakr said, "O you the enemy of herself! Does the Messenger of Allah say but the truth?" The Prophet said, "O Abu Bakr, we did not invite you for this [harsh dealing with Aishah], nor did we anticipate it." quoted in: Mutual Rights and Obligations

Hope that helps

IamBeowulf

I find it interesting that many faiths share the same view on sex: that it must be treated as if it were something to be ashamed of. I would never insult a person's faith as I believe it touches the very core of one's soul and to attack it is to attack their soul...but I must admit that Christianity, Islam etc. are all very oppressive when it comes to indulging in one of life's purest pleasures.

By extension, religion and society in general have, over the centuries, sought to limit the powers of women, for they are the "instigators". As if only through their exposing any sexuality, whether it be physical or otherwise, they betray their God's trust.

When I see Muslims walking the streets of Dublin (there aren't many) I am stumped at the lengths to which they'll go to cover up. Under the baking heat of the sun (not that we get much sun) they persist in their black clothing which I can only imagine, heats them up like crazy.

I feel that as a society today we must look at these backwards traditions of suppressing femininity as outdated and vulgar. Women should be allowed to choose whether they cover up or not. It is truly fear on the men's part that they instil the wrath of God into anyone who dares appear attractive to men. A very possessive and insecure rule indeed.

Victor

IamBeowulf wrote: »

When I see Muslims walking the streets of Dublin (there aren't many) I am stumped at the lengths to which they'll go to cover up.

There are thousands of them, you might not notice as not all of them will wear burkas or hijabs.

Under the baking heat of the sun (not that we get much sun) they persist in their black clothing which I can only imagine, heats them up like crazy.

The clothing is light weight.

farrahk52

Sex is nothing to be ashamed of when done between a husband and wife. Outside of this, its filth. It causes destruction in society, i have non muslim freinds who are single parents. I could never imagine bringing a child into this world without a father figure, i would have hated it if it had happened to me. I cant even comprehend it.

I have seen friends, women who are sleeping with their boyfriends freinds / neighbours and have fathered children from them, who pretend they are their bf's!. I swear thats no lie. I know atleast 5. Thing is from my own experience of controlling my lust and desires i know ITS ALL TOO EASY.

Had it not been my upbringing and islam i would have definately been one of these women. I have come to the conclusion (from my own exp) i cant control my desires unless i cover up FULLY. Trust me the last thing i wanted to do was cover up fully , i tried everything else. My manager is awkward with me (we used to flirt alot and now he picks on me for the tiniest mistake) , i've lost my mates (to be honest i was bored of some of them) and life is a bit restrictive but you know what, I AM SO HAPPY because i feel so content and peaceful, something i never knew was possible, infact i used to ask myself amidst the lusftfulness and shallowness that was my life the elusive big one quite often, what is REAL happiness and AM I HAPPY?. I understand now. This life is a test and like with any test, it comes with it rules and regulations, no illicit sex on earth = plenty of sex in paradise where it will be more intense and it will be ETERNAL!. Apart from this there will be many more rewards in paradise. I DESPERATELY WANT PARADISE, this life isn't all its cracked up to be. Theres no real security what with earthquakes, violence, hatred, pollution, global warming, disease, everything on earth has to be maintained, ie things have to be grown, looked after, eventually we are all going to die sooner or later!, this is how i see life, we are born, have some good times, have some bad times and then we die. WHATS THE POINT?

Know you (all), that the life of this world is but play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting and multiplying (in rivalry) among yourselves, riches and children. Here is a similitude: How rain and the growth which it brings forth delight (the hearts of) the tillers; soon it withers; you will see it grow yellow; then it becomes dry and crumbles away. But in the Hereafter is a Penalty severe (for the devotees of wrong). And Forgiveness from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure (for the devotees of Allah). And what is the life of this world, but goods and chattels of deception? (Surat al-Hadid: 20)

Fair in the eyes of men is the love of things they covet: women and sons; heaped-up hoards of gold and silver; horses branded (for blood and excellence); and (wealth of) cattle and well-tilled land. Such are the possessions of this world's life; but in nearness to Allah is the best of the goals (to return to). (Surah Ali-'Imran: 14)

"Truly, it is by the Remembrance of Allah that hearts find rest." [Qur'an, 13.28]

25. But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness that their portion is Gardens beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom they say: "Why this is what we were fed with before" for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure; and they abide therein (for ever).
43. And We shall remove from their hearts any lurking sense of injury; beneath them will be rivers flowing; and they shall say: "Praise be to Allah Who hath guided us to this (felicity): never could we have found guidance had it not been for the guidance of Allah: indeed it was the truth that the apostles of our Lord brought unto us." And they Shall hear the cry: "Behold! the garden before you! Ye have been made its inheritors for your deeds (of righteousness)."

72. Allah hath promised to believers men and women gardens under which rivers flow to dwell therein and beautiful mansions in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the greatest bliss in the Good Pleasure of Allah: that is the supreme felicity.
Surah: 13. ar-Ra'd
23. Gardens of perpetual bliss: they shall enter there as well as the righteous among their fathers their spouses and their offspring: and angels shall enter unto them from every gate (with the salutation):
35. The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised! beneath if flow rivers: perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein: such is the End of the Righteous; and the End of Unbelievers is the Fire.
Surah: 14. Ibrahim

23. But those who believe and work righteousness will be admitted to Gardens beneath which rivers flow to dwell therein for aye with the leave of their Lord: their greeting therein will be: "Peace!"
Surah: 15. al-Hijr
45. The righteous (will be) amid Gardens and fountains (of clear-flowing water).
46. (Their greeting will be): "Enter ye here in Peace and Security."
47. And We shall remove from their hearts any lurking sense of injury: (they will be) brothers (joyfully) facing each other on thrones (of dignity).
48. There no sense of fatigue shall touch them nor shall they (ever) be asked to leave. Surah: 16. an-Nahl

31. Gardens of Eternity which they will enter: beneath them flow (pleasant) rivers: they will have therein all that they wish: thus doth Allah reward the righteous
Surah: 18. al-Kahf 31. For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and they will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade; they will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on!

23. Allah will admit those who believe and work righteous deeds to Gardens beneath which rivers flow: they shall be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearls; and their garments there will be of silk.
Surah: 25. al-Furqaan
15. Say: "Is that best or the eternal Garden promised to the righteous? For them that is a reward as well as a goal (of attainment).
16. "For them there will be therein all that they wish for: they will dwell (there) for aye: a promise to be prayed for from thy Lord." Surah 35. Fatir

32. Then We have given the Book for inheritance to such of our servants as We have chosen: But there are among them some who wrong their own souls; some who follow a middle course; and some who are, by Allah's leave, foremost in good deeds; That is the highest grace.
33. Gardens of Eternity will they enter: therein will they be adorned with bracelets of Gold and pearls; And their garments there will be of silk.
34. And they will say:"Praise be to Allah, who has removed from us (all) sorrow: for our Lord is indeed Oft-Forgiving Reasy to appreciate (service):
35. "Who has, out of His bounty, settled us in a home that will last: no toil Nor sense of wearness shall touch us therein." Surah: 37. as-Saaffaat

49. This is a Message (of admonition): and verily, For the righteous, is a beautiful place of (final) return,-
50. Gardens of eternity, whose doors will (ever) be open to them;
51. Therein will they recline (at ease); therein can they call (at pleasure) for fruit in abundance,ad (delicious) drink;
52. And beside them will be Chaste women restraining their glances, (companions) of equal age.
53. Such is the Promise made to you for the Day of Account!
54. Truly such will be our Bounty (to you); It will never fail;-
Surah: 39. az-Zumar
71. The Unbelievers will be led to Hell in crowds; until when they arrive there its gates will be opened and its Keepers will say "Did not apostles come to you from among yourselves rehearsing to you the Signs of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" The answer will be: "True: but the Decree of Punishment has been proved true against the Unbelievers!"
72. (To them) will be said: "Enter ye the gates of Hell to dwell therein: and evil is (this) abode of the arrogant!"
73. And those who feared their Lord will be led to the Garden in crowds: until behold they arrive there; its gates will be opened: and its Keepers will say: "Peace be upon you! Well have ye done! Enter ye here to dwell therein."
74. They will say: "Praise be to Allah Who has truly fulfilled His promise to us and has given us (this) land in heritage: we can dwell in the Garden as we will: how excellent a reward for those who work (righteousness)!"
75. And thou wilt see the angels surrounding the Throne (Divine) on all sides saying Glory and Praise to their Lord. The Decision between them (at Judgment) will be in (perfect) justice. And the cry (on all sides) will be "Praise be to Allah the Lord of the Worlds!"
Surah: 41. Fussilat (Ha-Mim)
30. In the case of those who say "Our Lord is Allah" and further stand straight and steadfast the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!" (they suggest) "nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss) the which ye were promised!
31. "We are your protectors in this life and in the Hereafter: therein shall ye have all that your souls shall desire; therein shall ye have all that ye ask for!
Surah: 43. az-Zukhruuf
68. My devotees! no fear shall be on you that Day nor shall ye grieve
69. (Being) those who have believed in Our Signs and bowed (their wills to Ours) in Islam.
70. Enter ye the Garden ye and your wives in (beauty and) rejoicing.
71. To them will be passed round dishes and goblets of gold: there will be there all that the souls could desire all that the eyes could delight in: and ye shall abide therein (for aye).
72. Such will be the Garden of which ye are made heirs for your (good) deeds (in life).
73. Ye shall have therein abundance of fruit from which ye shall have satisfaction.
Surah: 44. ad-Dukhaan
51. As to the Righteous (they will be) in a position of Security
52. Among Gardens and Springs;
53. Dressed in fine silk and in rich brocade they will face each other;
54. So; and We shall Join them to Companions with beautiful big and lustrous eyes.
55. There can they call for every kind of fruit in peace and security;
56. Nor will they there taste Death except the first Death; and He will preserve them from the Penalty of the Blazing Fire
57. As a Bounty from thy Lord! That will be the supreme achievement!
Surah: 47. Muhammed (salla Allhu alaihi wa sallam)
15. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible: rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire and be given to drink boiling water so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?
Surah: 55. ar-Rahman
46. But for such as fear the time when they will stand before (the Judgment Seat of) their Lord there will be two Gardens
47. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
48. Containing all kinds (of trees and delights)
49. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
50. In them (each) will be two Springs flowing (free);
51. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
52. In them will be Fruits of every kind two and two.
53. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
54. They will recline on Carpets whose inner linings will be of rich brocade: the Fruit of the Gardens will be Near (and easy of reach).
55. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
56. In them will be (Maidens) Chaste restraining their glances whom no man or Jinn before them has touched
57. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
58. Like unto rubies and coral.
59. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
60. Is there any Reward for Good other than Good?
61. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
62. And besides these two there are two other Gardens
63. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
64. Dark green in color (from plentiful watering).
65. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
66. In them (each) will be two springs pouring forth water in continuous abundance:
67. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
68. In them will be Fruits and dates and pomegranates:
69. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
70. In them will be fair (companions) good beautiful
71. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
72. Companions restrained (as to their glances) in (goodly) pavilions
73. Then which of the favor of your Lord will ye deny?
74. Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched
75. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
76. Reclining on green Cushions and rich Carpets of beauty.
77. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
Surah: 56. al-Waaqi`ah
10. And those Foremost (in Faith) will be Foremost (in the Hereafter).
11. These will be those Nearest to Allah:
12. In Gardens of Bliss:
13. A number of people from those of old
14. And a few from those of later times.
15. (They will be) on Thrones encrusted (with gold and precious stones).
16. Reclining on them facing each other.
17. Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness).
18. With goblets (shining) beakers and cups (filled) out of clear- flowing fountains:
19. No after-ache will they receive therefrom nor will they suffer intoxication:
20. And with fruits any that they may select;
21. And the flesh of fowls any that they may desire.
22. And (there will be) Companions with beautiful big and lustrous eyes- -
23. Like unto Pearls well-guarded.
24. A Reward for the Deeds of their past (Life).
25. No frivolity will they hear therein nor any taint of ill
26. Only the saying "Peace! Peace."
27. The Companions of the Right Hand what will be the Companions of the Right Hand?
28. (They will be) among lote trees without thorns
29. Among Talh trees with flowers (or fruits) piled one above another
30. In shade long-extended
31. By water flowing constantly
32. And fruit in abundance
33. Whose season is not limited nor (supply) forbidden
34. And on Thrones (of Dignity) raised high.
35. We have created (their Companions) of special creation.
36. And made them virgin-pure (and undefiled)
37. Beloved (by nature) equal in age
38. For the companions of the Right Hand.
39. A (goodly) number from those of old
40. And a (goodly) number from those of later times.
Surah: 69. al-Haaqqah
19. Then He that will be given his Record in his right hand will say: "Ah here! read ye my Record!
20. "I did really understand that my Account would (one Day) reach me!"
21. And he will be in a life of Bliss
22. In a Garden on high
23. The Fruits whereof (will hang in bunches) low and near.
24. "Eat ye and drink ye with full satisfaction; because of the (good) that ye sent before you in the days that are gone!"
Surah: 76. al-Insaan
5. As to the Righteous they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur
6. A Fountain where the Devotees of Allah do drink making it flow in unstinted abundance.
7. They perform (their) vows and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide.
8. And they feed for the love of Allah the indigent the orphan and the captive
9. (Saying) "We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: No reward do we desire from you nor thanks.
10. "We only fear a Day of distressful Wrath from the side of our Lord."
11. But Allah will deliver them from the evil of that Day and will shed over them a light of Beauty and a (blissful) Joy.
12. And because they were patient and constant He will reward them with a Garden and (garments of) silk.
13. Reclining in the (Garden) on raised thrones they will see there neither the sun's (excessive heat) nor (the moon's) excessive cold.
14. And the shades of the (Garden) will come low over them and the bunches (of fruit) there will hang low in humility.
15. And amongst them will be passed round vessels of silver and goblets of crystal
16. Crystal-clear made of silver: they will determine the measure thereof (according to their wishes).
17. And they will be given to drink there of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Zanjabil
18. A fountain there called Salsabil.
19. And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): if thou seest them thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls.
20. And when thou lookest it is there thou wilt see a Bliss and a Realm Magnificent.
21. Upon them will be green Garments of fine silk and heavy brocade and they will be adorned with Bracelets of silver; and their Lord will give to them to drink of a Wine Pure and Holy.
22. "Verily this is a Reward for you and your Endeavor is accepted and recognized."
Surah: 77. al-Mursalaat
41. As to the righteous, they shall be amidst (cool) shades and springs (of water)
42. And (they shall have) fruits, -all they desire.
43. "Eat ye and drink ye to your heart's content:For that ye worked (righteousness).
44. Thus do We certainly reward the doers of good.
Surah: 78.an-Naba'
31. Verily for the righteous there will be a fulfillment of (the Heart's) desires;
32. Gardens enclosed and Grape-vines;
33. Companions of Equal Age;
34. And a Cup full (to the Brim).
35. No Vanity shall they hear therein nor Untruth
36. Recompense from thy Lord a Gift (amply) sufficient
Surah: 83. at-Tatfeef
18. Nay verily the Record of the Righteous is (preserved) in `Illiyin.
19. And what will explain to thee what `Illiyin is?
20. (There is) a Register (fully) inscribed.
21. To which bear witness those Nearest (to Allah).
22. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss:
23. On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things):
24. Thou wilt recognize in their Faces the beaming brightness of Bliss.
25. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed:
26. The seal thereof will be Musk: and for this let those aspire who have aspirations:
27. With it will be (given) a mixture of Tasnim:
28. A spring from (the waters) whereof drink those Nearest to Allah.
Surah: 88. al-Ghaashiyah
8. Other) faces that Day will be joyful.
9. Pleased with their Striving
10. In a Garden on high
11. Where they shall hear no (word) of vanity:
12. Therein will be a bubbling spring:
13. Therein will be Thrones (of dignity) raised on high.
14. Goblets placed (ready).
15. And Cushions set in rows 16. And rich carpets (All) spread out.

40. But the sincere (and devoted) servants of Allah
41. For them is a Sustenance Determined
42. Fruits (Delights) and they (shall enjoy) honor and dignity.
43. In Gardens of Felicity.
44. Facing each other on Thrones (of dignity):
45. Round will be passed to them a Cup from a clear-flowing fountain
46. Crystal-white of a taste delicious to those who drink (thereof)
47. Free from headiness; nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom.
48. And beside them will be chaste women; restraining their glances with big eyes (of wonder and beauty).
49. As if they were (delicate) eggs closely guarded.
50. Then they will turn to one another and question one another.
51. One of them will start the talk and say: "I had an intimate companion (on the earth)
52. "Who used to say `What! art thou amongst those who bear witness to the truth (of the Message)?
53. " `When we die and become dust and bones shall we indeed receive rewards and punishments?'"
54. (A voice) said: "Would ye like to look down?"
55. He looked down and saw him in the midst of the Fire.
56. He said: "By Allah! thou wast little short of bringing me to perdition!
57. "Had it not been for the Grace of my Lord I should certainly have been among those brought (there)!
58. "Is it (the case) that we shall not die
59. "Except our first death and that we shall not be punished?"
60. Verily this is the supreme achievement!
61. For the like of this let all strive who wish to strive. Surah: 38. Saad

Jannah

Wibbs wrote: »

I just think it makes out that men are somehow uncontrolled beasts and that they have no restraint.

Yeah, I got that feeling myself a bit too- it seems kinda harsh on guys to assume that they have no self control. After all, isn't self control one of the main thing that seperates humans from animals? Segregation of men and women doesn't allow men to know women as human beings and not some kind of mysterious sex symbol. I just think its a little unnatural- everyday life involves the intergration of the sexes and its unrealistic to think that one can lead a normal life barricaded from the opposite sex

Wibbs wrote: »

I feel personally that the Islamic view a bit extreme, but that said the "western" view can sometimes be equally accused of being extreme. A middle ground would be nice. Hey I live in hope.

True- going to either extreme isn't good. People need to realise that the middle ground between being swamped in fabric and being dressed in a micro mini is the best way for society to go.

IamBeowulf wrote: »

I find it interesting that many faiths share the same view on sex: that it must be treated as if it were something to be ashamed of... Under the baking heat of the sun (not that we get much sun) they persist in their black clothing which I can only imagine, heats them up like crazy... A very possessive and insecure rule indeed.

I used to always think it was a matter of being ashamed of sex, but the more I learned about it the more I saw that religions value the act of sex so highly that they feel it should be saved for one's spouse alone. But yeah, no matter how 'light weight' people say the fabric is, long sleeves, head coverings and long pants/dresses are bound to be uncomfortable in hot weather. But when it comes down to it, it is a matter of choice (usually) and if someone feels it is necessary to cover, then they have every right to do so. Possessive and insecure? I wouldn't go that far, I'm sure it could apply to a percentage of people, but it would be a pretty harsh sweeping statement to make. I admire women who veil, but personally I don't think God particularly cares what we wear

StormWarrior

farrahk52 wrote: »

This life is a test and like with any test, it comes with it rules and regulations, no illicit sex on earth = plenty of sex in paradise where it will be more intense and it will be ETERNAL!.

Who do you have sex with in paradise, your husband or someone else?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Most reliable sources have told me Burkas are not prescibed in the Quran but a type of Islamic practice called Wahhabism. Osama Bin Laden's big into it.

The burka is clearly a tool of opression & control. I'm sure plenty of Irish men would love the idea of their girlfriend being completely covered but they know full well where they'd be told to go.

farrahk52 perhaps you have a very high sex drive but most women don't have a problem with lust without a burka. Sounds to me like you're so engaged with Islam that you're going to all extremes to be as Islamic as possible & convincing yourself it's the only way.

the_new_mr

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Perhaps you'll get to paradise but all evidence suggests it doesn't exist. So its pretty patronising of you to call the vast majority of people "filth"

I don't think she said that she called the vast majority of people filth. I think you'll find that she said:

farrahk52 wrote:

Sex is nothing to be ashamed of when done between a husband and wife. Outside of this, its filth.

I agree with that. The people themselves aren't necessarily filth but the act is wrong and there is no question of that in my mind.

I'm glad to hear that you're so into farrahk52. Although, like Bottle_of_Smoke says, the Burqa is not part of Islamic teaching (and arguably the niqab as well). I'm not sure just exactly how much covering up you're doing but I'm happy that you're happy with it and finding so much peace. It's important to not to go too much of a extreme or you might find that your spiritual "energy" is spent. There's an old hadith (as far as I know) of the Prophet Mohamed (peace be upon him) that talks of not moving too quickly and to instead take it step by step.

IamBeowulf wrote:

I find it interesting that many faiths share the same view on sex: that it must be treated as if it were something to be ashamed of. I would never insult a person's faith as I believe it touches the very core of one's soul and to attack it is to attack their soul...but I must admit that Christianity, Islam etc. are all very oppressive when it comes to indulging in one of life's purest pleasures.

I think if you read up a little, you'll find that the Islamic view of sex is not quite like other religions. As farrahk52 said, there's nothing to be ashamed of when it comes to sexual relations between a married couple. It should be enjoyed at it's meant to.

IamBeowulf wrote:

Women should be allowed to choose whether they cover up or not.

It seems that you're missing the point a bit. Most Muslim women that wear hijab wear hijab (about 99%) do so out of their own free will with the intention of pleasing God because they believe that God wants them to. Simple as that really. Although there are some who are forced to wear it, this is completely against Islamic teaching.

And, as farrahk52 has mentioned, it gives her a kind of freedom that not wearing just doesn't provide. There are also plenty of other women who view it as a feminist thing to do since it frees them up of society's expectancy of them to look stunning all the time and essentially be a bit of eye candy. It allows them to be appreciated for who they are and not just for what they wear.

farrahk52

farrahk52 perhaps you have a very high sex drive but most women don't have a problem with lust without a burka. Sounds to me like you're so engaged with Islam that you're going to all extremes to be as Islamic as possible & convincing yourself it's the only way.[/quote]

How high is high? theres a reason why many people sleep with multiple partners, their partners freinds, neighbours and even strangers they meet on a first night. STD's are soaring in the west, because people are engaging in these acts to fulfil their desires and lusts, why have one partner when you can have more?

If you become a slave to your whims and desires it will have dire consequences on you and society as a whole. I dont want to live in a single parent society. I dont think its right, but if men and women freely mix then this stuff will happen - its bound to happen we all have lusts and desires!. And although i generally agree just because a group of men and women freely mix it doesnt neccassarily mean they will get it on but alot of the time they will!. I know of freinds both male and female who have slept with people they dont even fancy (and they were sober!!).....WHY?

Because humans cant control their lusts as much as they think they can. You can have the purest of intentions but in a moment of weakness sleep with a freind. Its natural and if you dont follow the guidelines of dressing up fully and staying away from free mixing with the opposite sex you are encouraging a situation.

Islam stops everything at the root, it cuts of any poison before its starts emerging. Some people think its ok to free mix or some christians (my mates) think its ok to have a relationship with the opposite sex aslong as you dont have sex before marriage. Some will be successful but you cant say everyone will, Allah recognises this because he created us and so responsibly shuns free mixing.

How many single parent / fatherless asian / muslim families do you see compared to the west ?, wether these rules are portrayed via culture or religion they seem to have a beneficial outcome on society.

I know of 3 non muslim guys who've fathered 5-8 kids from different mothers and they dont get to see half of their children due to ex partners or they've moved away etc. Tell me something, would you like to be in those childrens shoes and not have a stable father figure around?.

Every single person makes a society and has a role to play. Having morals will definately have a great impact on you and on society as a whole. Its about time we took responsibility of our actions and look out for the human race by doing our bit to make it a better world, even if its by covering up and guarding our chastity.

farrahk52

StormWarrior wrote: »

Who do you have sex with in paradise, your husband or someone else?

'Therein shall ye have all that your souls shall desire; therein shall ye have all that ye ask for!'
Surah: 43. az-Zukhruuf

The quran mentions many times you will have ALL that you desire. The question is, will you desire more than your husband?, if so Allah promises it, if not then you wont!.

StormWarrior

If sleeping with people you are not married to is so dreadful in life, why is it ok in heaven?

StormWarrior

the_new_mr wrote: »

The people themselves aren't necessarily filth but the act is wrong and there is no question of that in my mind.

Just being married can't make it ok. I mean, if two people love each other and willingly have sex before marriage that's so dreadful, but if, say, a woman ends up forced into an arranged marriage and her husband has sex with her against her will, that's ok? I'm not just asking this from a muslim point of view, I know, in theory, that Islam says the woman should have the right to refuse to marry a particular man. My point is that at the end of the day, marriage is just a piece of paper, you can't generalise by saying sex outside of marriage is always wrong, but it's fine within marriage.

StormWarrior

farrahk52 wrote: »

'Therein shall ye have all that your souls shall desire; therein shall ye have all that ye ask for!'
Surah: 43. az-Zukhruuf

The quran mentions many times you will have ALL that you desire. The question is, will you desire more than your husband?, if so Allah promises it, if not then you wont!.

It seems that you believe people should deprive themselves of everything they want in this life, in the hope of getting it in the next. Why would Allah create the world in this way?

[Deleted User]

Hmmm.

I think an explanation of traditions is in order. If someone more learned than me in traditions can shed more light onto this, I'd be happy to concede points.

I beleive it all boils down to previous traditions. It's unfortunate that the wearing of hats by men in the west has gone out of fashion, as the customs in the tipping of hats would help establish that yes, there is a Western headwear code, much like the Eastern one.

The tipping of hats goes back to the old Middle Ages custom of removing one's helmet in the company of freinds, to show the bare head was a sign that the helmet-wearer trusted the people he was with, and others could look on his face and see whether he was a freind or foe. I time, the Royal Navy moved to the grabbing of the front of the hat as a salute, although the face was at this stage uncovered. It symbolised the wish to show respect, and kinship. This evolved into the military salute as we see it today. Out in Civilian land, men wore hats of different types through the ages, and it was only in the 1960s and 70s that men no longer wore hats (baseball caps don't count). therefore, the old traditions of tipping hats were kept on, until they were seen as "old" and "quaint".

In recent years, the only faces covered in the street were by those wearing a balaclava on their way to or from a crime, and the sight would strike fear into anyone who saw it up close, as invariably balaclava wearers were threatening to either rob or kill you. Western people associated covered faces with mistrust, attempts to disguise, conceal, corrupt, hide.

I don't say yay or nay, but I thought I'd add a bit of a niggling point.

And can we leave the judging of people to the God/Allah of Abraham please? Only He would be able to decide the righteousness or not of a person. Not us mere humans.

(Declaraton of interests: I'm Catholic, but great beleiver in the right of every man woman and child to do what they wish, as long as they do not prevent another from doing as he/she wishes)