Another C. Heating NEwbie

eas

hi all

I've been having problems with my central heating since last year. At the time only one rad was cold, but now it's 2 and seesm to be moving into a 3rd. This is probably due to my tinkering, making the problem worse.

It sounds very simular to the problem in the thread below, as in I've tried the bleed and no water comes out after the air stops. Main differnce is that my problem is on the second floor, not the ground floor (not sure if that matters).

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054846518

anyhow, it seems the answer may be in the thread above, but I have no idea what type of system I have nor what valve I should be turning or by how much.

Also, there is a pressure guage that seems to be very low?

so, in my helplessness I took a picture of my pipes and things hoping that someone could help me in this...... picture attached below. I'm sure you'll note that the gauge reads almost no pressure....is this normal?




any help very appreciated

thanks

eas

Corkey123

The system you have appears to be a closed system that relies on the pressure rather than the gravity systems that uses an expansion tank in the atticc. The gauge you show registers no pressure and hence the reason you have no heating in some rads. When you attemp to bleed the rads the pressure forces the air out, thats the reason why bleeding the rads is of no penefit, there is no pressure in the system. Increase the pressure to one and attempt to bleed the rad, you will hear the air being expelled until the pressure dies down to zero again.

Continue to do this until you experience water coming out of the bleeding nut.

eas

thanks for your reply MArtin.

I pretty much figured that the low pressure was the reason why no air was coming out of the rads when i tried to bleed them, a couple of questions regarding this......

how do I increase the pressure?

how much do I increase the pressure by?

thanks again

tapest

eas wrote:

hi all

I've been having problems with my central heating since last year. At the time only one rad was cold, but now it's 2 and seesm to be moving into a 3rd. This is probably due to my tinkering, making the problem worse.

It sounds very simular to the problem in the thread below, as in I've tried the bleed and no water comes out after the air stops. Main differnce is that my problem is on the second floor, not the ground floor (not sure if that matters).

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054846518

anyhow, it seems the answer may be in the thread above, but I have no idea what type of system I have nor what valve I should be turning or by how much.

Also, there is a pressure guage that seems to be very low?

so, in my helplessness I took a picture of my pipes and things hoping that someone could help me in this...... picture attached below. I'm sure you'll note that the gauge reads almost no pressure....is this normal?




any help very appreciated

thanks

eas

Eas You still on line ??

eas

HI tapest

yes, still here

tapest

eas wrote:

HI tapest

yes, still here

PM sent
acknowledge plz...and don't go away
t

JamesM

Pipers might be best at this.:(
Where does the 1/2in pipe to the right of the gauge go to ? Is there a valve on it ? That's where the water for the system is coming from. This system looks like it might take water from the mains. That might be a pressure reducing valve behind the gauge. If so and if there is no other valve on that pipe, you could try turning it a small bit. But you must not let the pressure build up too high.
Got to go back to work
Jim

tapest

tapest wrote:

PM sent
acknowledge plz...and don't go away
t

Eas
Did you get pm?? I'm changing ISP and I may loose internet access at any time

t

eas

hi tapest - jsut got it now- cheers - I'm jsut off for a meeting, should be back in 30 - I'll sned you a PM when i get back -

thanks for that

eas

loz

same setup as mine,

( had it presurised due to having placed a read in the attic conversion )

on mine i open the bar valve ( the handle shapped red one - not the whell shaped one - sorry non tech terms - and you will hear the water come in from mains, and see presure increase. Mine seems to self regulate and stop taking in from mains when meter hits 1.5.

You wont be able to over pressure as the red canister will have a pressure escape valve ontop of it if you look closely

eas

thanks loz

so - just so I'm getting this strait -

1) turn the red handle to increase pressure
2) bleed rads until water comes out
3) repeat if nessesary
4) poor a glass of whiskey and enjoy the heat.

is there a nominal level of pressure that should be in the system? is 1.5 about right or too high?


tapest - what do you think? is the how you got yours working?

thanks again

JamesM

loz wrote:

same setup as mine,

( had it presurised due to having placed a read in the attic conversion )

on mine i open the bar valve ( the handle shapped red one - not the whell shaped one - sorry non tech terms - and you will hear the water come in from mains, and see presure increase. Mine seems to self regulate and stop taking in from mains when meter hits 1.5.

You wont be able to over pressure as the red canister will have a pressure escape valve ontop of it if you look closely

The valves you see in the photo are most likely not the valves you need to open to let water into the system. You can see from the photo that the handle is in the open position. There may be another handle somewhere out of sight in that shot.
What you call the "pressure escape valve on the top of the expansion vessel has nothing to do with pressure release. You certainly will be able to over pressurise the system if it is connected to the mains. If you do this you will get a jet of almost boiling water from the safety valve, wherever that is.:eek:
Jim

eas

thanks Jim

I've had an offline conversation with tapest (thanks tapest) who also says the valve I'm looking for is not in the picture, probably on the other side of the tank.

He's explaned to me how to spot it. In any case I'm going to go home and turn whatever valves are there until I find the one that increases the pressure.

I'll be back tomorrow with an update....and probably another picture.

thanks to everyone for the advice

lomb

could be a sealed system, needing filling by an external loop.ul know this if u can find attachment thread point for a screw on pipe and a corresponding valve.

eas

OK - attempt #1 = failure. - sorry tapest.

I have 24 hours to fix this or my wife calls in a pro and my "Man Rating" drops
a few more points

so what I did, based on good advice was look on the other side of the
water boiler to find the knob tha should put water in my system, and as I
understand, in turn should increase the pressure, that will let me bleed the
air out, that will let me sit and relax with a glass of whiskey (and bailys)

at the risk of seeming like a completly useless fool - I took another picture (below).
I've numbered and colour coded the bits for me to easily understand any advice I should recieve.




So - when I got to the hot press last night, this is how things where >

A > closed
B > OPEN
C > closed
D > closed.

With the heating system turned ON - I opened *D* thinking that looked like the one I wanted.
I figured that *C* did not nothing in this case. I waited a few minutes the pressure didn't seem to be doing anything.

I than figured that if *D* was the one I wanted than it would make sense that *B* should be open to let
any water from *D* flow thru as they were on the same pipe (blue). When I opened *B* some gurgling
happened. I was not sure if this was letting water into the system, or draining it out. either way, the pressure seemed to remain the same.

Long story short, I played around with different combinations for about an hour with little noticeable difference in pressure. BOOO!

This morning before I left for work I opened the bleed valve on one of the rads that is not working, and it was
sucking air in, not blowing it out. ? I've somehow created a suction now!:mad:

So if someone can help here it would be appreciated. my
"Man Rating" is at stake!!

questions that came out of my experience last night >

What is the right combintaiton of OPEN and Closed?

If I did get the right combination of valves how long should it take
for the pressure to increase?

should the heating system be on or off when I'm doing this?


Sorry for the confusing/long post.

thanks for any help regarding this

eas

JamesM

I've got half an hour , so here goes

I'm trying to identify different pipes, so a few questions
Is your hotpress on the groung floor or upstairs ? Do you have rads on the floor above ?
Does the blue pipe in the 1st photo join the blue in the others ?
Does the blue near the A valve go into the side of the cylinder?
Presumably the pipe just down from the auto air vent goes into the side of the cylinder ?
Does the blue pipe near C go into the side of the cylinder ?
I think that valves A B & D should have been open all the time and have nothing to do with filling the system. If the pipe from D goes into the side of the cylinder, it is just the hot water feed from the main tank in the attic. A and B control flow from the boiler to the cylinder and the rads.

It will depend on your answers, but I still think that the small 1/2 inch pipe to the right of the gauge is the one which fills the system. Trace it back. Can the black piece above the gauge be turned. This may be a pressure reducing valve. I'll check back at lunchtime !
Jim

eas

ha - thanks James, I'm a master of overcomliicating things!

so to answer your quesitons...

Is your hotpress on the groung floor or upstairs ? Do you have rads on the floor above ?

the hotpress is on the groundfloor. yes there are rads on the second floor, they are the ones not getting heat.

the blue in the first photo is the blue pipe in the pther photos

yes, the blue pipe is the same in all photos

Does the blue near the A valve go into the side of the cylinder?

yes, the blue goes into the cylindar in the fisrt photo, and comes out the other side in the second photo

Does the blue pipe near C go into the side of the cylinder ?

yes, the blue goes into the cylindar in the fisrt photo, and comes out in the second

I think that valves A B & D should have been open all the time and have nothing to do with filling the system. If the pipe from D goes into the side of the cylinder, it is just the hot water feed from the main tank in the attic. A and B control flow from the boiler to the cylinder and the rads.

blue pipe with *D* does go into the side of the cylinder


thanks for your time and advice Jim,

beldin

This is getting confusing.
Okay not a plumber but the gauge seems to be an automatic filler valve. I installed one last year , basically this means that if the mains water is connected to the input of this valve then it will allow water into the system to a set pressure.

So we have 2 possible problems
1/ The pipe going into the right hand side of the valve should have have a tap somewhere on it to supply mains pressure to the valve. I cannot see how it would not have one.

2/ If pressure is present then maybe the pressure valve is set wrong , can be adjusted by tightening or screwing out the nut on the bottom (I think ) it is a while since I did this.

However when I got mine it was preset to 1 bar which is the recommended level. I think option 1 is the problem but try and follow the pipe coming from the input to the pressure regulator.
If your wife complains say you know the problem but have to order a spare part...

eas

hi beldin

thanks for your input.

I'm almost sure that the pipe to right of the gauge wraps around and goes into the floor and has no other taps or such.

my wife has heard a few good ones over the years.......she knows my tricks by now

beldin

Well if there are no taps then allegedly there is pressure to the regulator. So maybe you can adjust it via the bottom bolt. Again I am not sure about this so take it easy.
Screw in to increase pressure and out to decrease it or vice versa.
Sorry a long time since I did this myself.

Found this link
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/waterpressureregulators.html

Shows a diagram of what I mean except the diagram is upside down and doesn't have a pressure gauge..

JamesM

eas wrote:

the blue in the first photo is the blue pipe in the pther photos

yes, the blue pipe is the same in all photos

Does the blue near the A valve go into the side of the cylinder?

yes, the blue goes into the cylindar in the fisrt photo, and comes out the other side in the second photo

Does the blue pipe near C go into the side of the cylinder ?

yes, the blue goes into the cylindar in the fisrt photo, and comes out in the second

I think that valves A B & D should have been open all the time and have nothing to do with filling the system. If the pipe from D goes into the side of the cylinder, it is just the hot water feed from the main tank in the attic. A and B control flow from the boiler to the cylinder and the rads.

blue pipe with *D* does go into the side of the cylinder

QUOTE]

I'm Back !

Is the only reason you think that the blue pipes are the same, because they go into opposite sides of the cylinder ?
Or are they linked some other way ?
Your quote: "yes, the blue goes into the cylindar in the fisrt photo, and comes out in the second " IS THIS THE ONLY LINK ? I think that one is the feed from the main water tank to the cylinder. and the other is the return to the boiler from the coil in the cylinder.
Anyway as I said before and as Beldin has just said, I am certain that the pipe on the right of the gauge is the cold feed from the mains and the black knob above the gauge is a pressure reducer or regulator. There may also be a valve further back on that pipe.
Jim.

eas

thanks James and beldin

yes - the only reason why I think they are the same is because it goes in one side of the cylindar....and seems to be the same one coming out the other side. so


Is the only reason you think that the blue pipes are the same, because they go into opposite sides of the cylinder ?

yes

Or are they linked some other way ?

no

ok - what you guys are saying seems to make sense - the pipe going into the guage from the right is cold. so......

I'll have a go at it tonight and hope for the best.

I'm now concerned that I may have turned something off that should be on and am on the way to cooking something because of no water in the boiler....gak, that will get me into some trouble

JamesM

eas wrote:

I'm now concerned that I may have turned something off that should be on and am on the way to cooking something because of no water in the boiler....gak, that will get me into some trouble

A B & D should be open !
Check out around the gauge / pressure regulator and the pipe on the right.
Hopefully then you will be able to " sit and relax with a glass of whiskey (and bailys)"
Jim.

eas

thanks james

- to open them - I turn to clockwise....right?

beldin

Anti-clockwise, same as a tap to turn it on.

Clockwise to close it.

eas

yikes!

Corkey123

Come on eas we're all routing for ya

eas

thanks Martin -

seeing as how I just called the childminder to tell her not to turn on the heat or imersion, i'd get anohter man to back!

so once again - A , B and D should be open ?

Corkey123

Eas

Is it possible you might have been closing rather than opening these valves ?

D and C appear to be the same feed from above and therefore should be open.

D is the blue pipe and is feeding the hot cylinder from the storage tank in the attic. This must be open, if it is closed it will prevent the pressure entering the tank and your hot taps in the bathroom and the kitchen will cease.
Try this - open and close it. If this is the case then we can rule out the blue pipe or D.

C appear to be an extension of the blue pipe and appears to be heading down stairs ?. It must be feeding into something (Down stairs cold tap - unlikely) There is a stopcock on this, that is for isolated that particular feed, I would suggest this is left open, but try and trace its eventual destination/use

Why would B and A be closed, surely the only valved to be closed is the one supplying the pressure and this is only closed when the correct level of pressure has been reached.

Sorry eas I'm asking more questions than supplying answers.

JamesM

I think that his "YIKES" meant that he realised that he was turning the valves the wrong way. His hotpress is downstairs. Maybe C goes through the floor, but I think tha it looks as if it ends there. I think that it is a drain for the cylinder. If so DON'T open it :eek:
Jim.

Corkey123

Maybe C goes through the floor, but I think tha it looks as if it ends there. I think that it is a drain for the cylinder. If so DON'T open it

YIKES !!!

GreeBo

Man this is brilliant to read, though I do feel for ya eas.
and remember, rightie tighty, left loosey

When you are not sure do everything in slow increments, you will hear it if you have suddenly unlocked water/pressure and incase you open the wrong valve you want to be able to close it pretty sharpish.
GL!

squire1

This is like a clifhanger episod on Batman! Com'on eas, have you got heat? Hope you didn't add "CRASH" " BANG" and PFIZZZZ" to your "YIKES" last night.

charlesanto

Eas must have taken the day off to let the plumber in !

eas

sorry for the cliffhanger - no internet at home..

OK - attempt #2 = SUCCESS > 150 MAN POINTS AWARDED TO EAS > WHOOP WHOOP.

I now have heat in all rads and a steady pressure of 1bar in the system.

Thanks everyone for you patience and advice.

In the end it was a combination of the top turn knob and the bottom screw thing on the pressure guage that let the water in the system...as advised by Jim and beldin. Thanks fellas

So alls cozy and warm chez eas . Good thing too, it was bloody freezing last night.


Just to tie up a loose end or two -

> my "yikes" was because I thought it was clockwise to open. So, another lesson learnt.

> *c* is a dead end pipe.

thanks again, until next time I have some DIY to do.



eas

eas

charlesanto wrote:

Eas must have taken the day off to let the plumber in !

ha very good - nope, just running a bit late.

Corkey123

Lads

I just hope the next series of "Lost" is as entertaining as this thread was.

Well done eas

phew !!

beldin

All you have to figure out now is why the pressure dropped??? Allegedly they shouldn't drop very quickly and if they do it indicates some sort of a problem...

The only problem with these pressure regulators is that they will keep allowing water into the system even if there is a leak at the other end...

Anyway the only way to find this out is to turn the water to the regulator off again and see if the pressure drops quickly or not.
But that can be for another time. For now you should have enough brownie points to watch the match on Saturday in peace..

eas

good point beldin...and I did consider how a closed system would loose so much water? I put everything back to how it was on the gauge, so if it looses pressure anytime soon I'll have to pay someone to come and have a look.

It took a few trips up/down stairs to get all the air out the system, it may explain the mysterious dripping sound I've been hearing above the kicthen.. :rolleyes:

beldin

Mightn't be a leak. In my system there is a pressure relief valve that goes into play if the system pressure goes over 3 bar. This was faulty and constantly leaking. Replaced it but still have a problem .

If you had a leak upstairs it would have stained the ceiling by now.

JamesM

That's great news Eas !

Hopefully you don't have a leak.
I shouldn't even suggest this, but if there is a leak, it may now show up because of the higher pressure in the system. Like, if it is upstairs, that dripping sound over the kitchen might be a large damp patch by now :eek:
Maybe you should go home early today.
Sorry, I shouldn't even joke about it
Jim.

eas

Lovely 3 bed detached for sale..................anyone?

thanks for your help Jim.

pipers

I would strongly suggest finding out why the pressure has dropped. There is a strong possibility that there is a leak. I am not a fan of these pressure reducing valves, they are too troublesome. I would get it replaced with a boiler loop filling kit, or fit a separate tank in the attic to feed the central heating system solely.

rooferPete

Hi Pipers,

Just an observation from this screen, am I the only one who thinks that hot press had an untidy plumbing system ?

.

pipers

It looks a little rough, if i did it i would been a lot neater! and valve B would be in a more accesable position as its probably the most used (If used correctly!)
At least theres no qualpex used and he was able to pull bends

towbar

pipers,

everytime you guys solve something for us you then scare us....

what's the downside of qualplex? - he asks quietly hoping the answer is you dont like the colour!!!


Thanks.

pipers

It should not be connected within 1 metre to a boiler or cylinder

towbar

Pipers,

Thanks for clarifying, thats ok so as plumber is planning to use using qualplex in new build to home run radiators.

eas

thanks for the advice pipers.

if there is a leak....how does a plumber locate it?

loz

eas wrote:

thanks for the advice pipers.

if there is a leak....how does a plumber locate it?

back in the old days ! i think they'd drain the system and force smoke thru the pipes - and the smoke would emerge at the leak spot

rooferPete

eas wrote:

thanks for the advice pipers.

if there is a leak....how does a plumber locate it?

Sometimes they use knowledge gained over a long period of adding to their skills, other times using determination based on that same foundation of knowledge

.