NRAI / LRRA Debate thread

Sparks

maybe its because I haven’t yet (and don’t intend) to become embroiled in the political warfare insueing

Probably the best approach to take for the sake of your digestion and mental health Kink Unfortunately, if you help to run a club or a competition, you tend to get sucked into the running of the sport; and at that point, you find that the interests of "your" shooters are not being best served by others who are ensuring that "their" shooters are being looked after, and then all hell breaks loose.

I know it sounds very petty, but trust me when I say that when you see one of your junior shooters putting in scores that would beat anyone that any other country could put up, you want to do anything you can to help them along in competition, and those who get in the way deliberately, well there isn't a whole lot of good wishes in your heart for them because they're hurting one of your own, you know?

Sparks

2. The NRAI currently only operates from the MNSCI range.

Leupold, seriously; how many fullbore long range ranges are there in the Republic?

MP

Well, I had asked for someone to name the five NRAI affiliated clubs so that I could apply to join one, unfortunately the thread was closed before the information was posted. Anyone out there able to name them,please? And before someone suggests ringing MNSCI for the information, it has been tried unsuccessfully.

Sparks

Okay, following some moderator discussion, we've merged the "LRRA Mandate", "NRAI Mandate", "MSNCI" and "NRAI Affiliated Clubs" threads into one thread to deal with the one topic of the current NRAI / LRRA debate.

But, be advised that all three mods are watching and the charter will be enforced, so please:

• No flaming, trolling or personal abuse. By anyone. First offence will result in a temporary ban. Subsequent offences may result in longer bans or outright permanent bans. Posts containing offensive material will be edited by the moderators.
• If you have a problem with a post, use the "Report Bad Post" link (it's marked on the left side of each post with a symbol) to report it to the moderators. Do not take it on yourself to regulate the forum.

I think that there's potential, given the immediacy of the dispute, to find some sort of resolution that all parties could live with; we're not dealing here with a lengthy history of wrongs on either side, both groups have only been formed this year! Perhaps civil discourse and fully airing people's problems, objections and desired results, might actually prove useful for once?

Leupold

Sparks wrote:

Leupold, seriously; how many fullbore long range ranges are there in the Republic?

There's the rub Sparks. The NRAI/MNSCI keep implying that there is only one and that is their range .No body can deny this if we are talking about long range,e.g. anything over 100 yards. But every utterance from the "NRAI" mentions the MNSCI range and the need to "affiliate" to the MNSCI in order to shoot on the range. As you will know from my other posts on this point, this is the problem at the heart of the debate about whether the NRAI can function as an NGB. If the NRAI was truly operating as a National body, it would stand outside this relationship with the MNSCI and set up an arrangement with them which enabled all aspiring long range rifle shooters to use the range, allowing the MNSCI company to make a reasonable profit so that all were happy. They are not willing to do this. The only offer at the moment is a commercial one for other clubs to affiliate to the MNSCI. This costs a lot of money and would double the club membership costs more most club members. They are kind enough to offer to let the affiliated clubs retain their own identity. The nature of the NRAI/MNSCI relationship means that seperation is unlikely. I keep seeing statements from Skellig, Boudica etc that they are seperate bodies. I think it would be interesting to see a list of the NRAI officers(if any have been elected) and compare this list with the list of people who operate the MNSCI.

Sparks

Leupold wrote:

There's the rub Sparks. The NRAI/MNSCI keep implying that there is only one and that is their range .No body can deny this if we are talking about long range,e.g. anything over 100 yards. But every utterance from the "NRAI" mentions the MNSCI range and the need to "affiliate" to the MNSCI in order to shoot on the range.

Leupold, that doesn't sound so much like skullduggery as simple miscommunication. If the only range in the country for long range shooting is the MSNCI range, you will need to be a member of a club with access to the MSNCI range to shoot on it, that's just standard. Outside of Open competitions, I can't shoot on any range in the country without being a member of the club that runs it, at least not without a specific invitation.

As to needing to be affiliated to the NRAI to shoot internationally, well, I need to be in an NTSA-affiliated club to shoot in the Irish team for ISSF events, that's just how it works.

It sounds more like more details of the seperation between the NRAI and MSNCI is what's needed here. For example, do you need to affiliate to the NRAI or to the MSNCI, or both, or is there some sort of arrangement whereby an affiliation to the NRAI includes an affiliation to the MSNCI?

As you will know from my other posts on this point, this is the problem at the heart of the debate about whether the NRAI can function as an NGB. If the NRAI was truly operating as a National body, it would stand outside this relationship with the MNSCI and set up an arrangement with them which enabled all aspiring long range rifle shooters to use the range

But surely that's not something the NRAI can force upon the MNSCI, no more than, say, the NTSA could force Wilkinstown to allow someone to use their range. It's the clubs that have the final say, since it's their effort that keeps the ranges going and they who would be penalised if anything were to go wrong on the range.

The cardinal rule here is that the role of an NGB in a sport is to facilitate clubs, to serve their interests. The NGB has no business issuing orders to clubs regarding membership policies.

I think it would be interesting to see a list of the NRAI officers(if any have been elected) and compare this list with the list of people who operate the MNSCI.

I don't think that would be as useful as you think for determining the degree of seperation, not this soon after the NRAI being founded. What would be, would be (for example), knowing if the NRAI and MNSCI were both seperate limited companies. For example, you can't readily determine the seperation of the NTSA and its constituent clubs by checking the committee lists.

From the outside (I don't shoot fullbore, though I'd like to try Palma or ISSF 300m at some point - when I'm rich enough ) what I see is this:

• The NRAI is internationally recognised; the LRRA isn't as yet (though they've only been officially inaugerated for what, two days now?). Neither is currently recognised by the Sports Council.
• The NRAI seems to have an arrangement for NRAI-affiliated clubs to shoot on the only currently extant long range range in the Republic; as I understand it the LRRA were proposing the use of Ballykindler - which doesn't sound exactly optimal, since it's under the jurisdiction of the UK's NRA when it's hosting civilian shooting, and the LRRA would always be guests, never a governing body there.
• Neither body is doing a fantastic job at getting more than the bare minimum of information out to the community

So far, it would seem that the NRAI has the better case for being an NGB. However, they have got to step up to the plate in terms of getting information out there about it's structure and rules and so forth. And the arrangements with choosing National Squads and National Teams desperately need to be clarified and possibly altered. It is not acceptable for a squad to be chosen on the basis of who can afford to pay for the ticket to the competition!

disco kid

I was told they have 25 shooters going to bisley this week to shoot the
indiv comp and the top four guns on the day shoot team on sun .
i think that is a fair way to pick a team because those on form who ever they
are young or old .well known or new to the sport can go to the fireing line and if good enough can make the team. for me new to this game i will keep trying to make it because i have a chance? i hope? Tell leupold sorry about my spelling.

Sparks

disco kid wrote:

I was told they have 25 shooters going to bisley this week to shoot the indiv comp and the top four guns on the day shoot team on sun .
i think that is a fair way to pick a team because those on form who ever they
are young or old .well known or new to the sport can go to the fireing line and if good enough can make the team.

I think there's some confusion here DK. The National Squad is the group that trains at home in Ireland in the hopes of making the standard and being chosen to represent their country abroad. The National Team is the group chosen from the Squad to go to a specific competition and to compete as the Irish Team. The "team" and "individual" events within the competition are not involved in the definition of what a National Team is, they're just different parts of the competition. Any National Team going to an ISSF World Cup, for example, would comprise several people competing in the individual events and possibly in the team events as well.

The scenario that you're describing means that anyone with enough money can buy their way into the National Team for a particular event, and that's got to be changed, if that's what's going on - it's totally unacceptable. The NGB's role in this is to select the best shooters in the country. To do this, you need open competitions at home and pre-defined standards that shooters must achieve which aren't laughable compared to the international standards; and procedures for selecting those shooters which make up the Teams and Squad. And those standards and procedures need to be codified and made publicly available to all - not just those who will seek them out and ask, you have to push them out into the public arena if you want to do this right.

There's nothing wrong with the procedure you laid out for sending off Club teams - and it's probably the better way of doing things for clubs as it builds the club's esprit de corps - but it's not how you're supposed to run teams on a national level.

Leupold

Sparks wrote:

Leupold, that doesn't sound so much like skullduggery as simple miscommunication. If the only range in the country for long range shooting is the MSNCI range, you will need to be a member of a club with access to the MSNCI range to shoot on it, that's just standard. Outside of Open competitions, I can't shoot on any range in the country without being a

This is well understood . The issue is how the NRAI facilitates access and on what terms? Before the advent of the NRAI, members of other clubs could go to the Midlands range, show their paperwork and use range for a reasonable fee. Since the NRAI came along, this access has been stopped and the costly "affiliation" issue has arisen. In other words the birth of the NRAI has restricted access by long range shooters to the available range facilities, not improved it!

Sparks wrote:

It sounds more like more details of the seperation between the NRAI and MSNCI is what's needed here. For example, do you need to affiliate to the NRAI or to the MSNCI, or both, or is there some sort of arrangement whereby an affiliation to the NRAI includes an affiliation to the MSNCI?


But surely that's not something the NRAI can force upon the MNSCI, no more than, say, the NTSA could force Wilkinstown to allow someone to use their range. It's the clubs that have the final say, since it's their effort that keeps the ranges going and they who would be penalised if anything were to go wrong on the range.

The cardinal rule here is that the role of an NGB in a sport is to facilitate clubs, to serve their interests. The NGB has no business issuing orders to clubs regarding membership policies.

I agree more details are needed on all aspects of the operations of the NRAI and it's policies and objectives. I did not use the word "force", I used the word "agree" on the point about arranging access to the range. I also mentioned that the arrangement needed to be fair to both parties which would only happen if their was no conflict of interests, hence the need for total separation.
As regards your point (b) above don't you see that that is exactly what is happening. The NRAI is telling clubs that want to join to affilliate to the MNSCI,i.e. that your or my club has to pay a lot of money, to "join" with another club, in order to shoot under the auspices of the NGB!

Sparks wrote:

. However, they have got to step up to the plate in terms of getting information out there about it's structure and rules and so forth. And the arrangements with choosing National Squads and National Teams desperately need to be clarified and possibly altered. It is not acceptable for a squad to be chosen on the basis of who can afford to pay for the ticket to the competition!

It is not just who can afford to pay at the moment, there are other strange qualifiers such as:
Who is allowed to shoot at Tullamore?
Who gets to hear about competitions?
What are the rules? I believe that local rules are used in addition to the international ones.
Then we get to who can pay.

FLAG

Sparks, why was my response to skellig deleted?

Nema

Nema banned from shooting for a week. Keep it civil or dont post.

Leupold

Nema wrote:

Nema banned from shooting for a week. Keep it civil or dont post.

You are on the ball REW!I wonder if Nemo has been watching Bleak House on the BBC?

disco kid

I wonder if Sparks or Leupold or 1911 or anybody else can comment on the following observation:-
I was in Bisley in summer '04 and saw IRELAND team????? shooting F-class. I got talking to some of the lads at the end of the shoot and I noticed that very few had Irish accents. I later found out that the IRELAND team???? was made up of mostly Scottish, Northen Ireland and English lads who were also shooting for the Commonwealth team, one even captained the England team to S. Africa. Who would you rather see shoot for the country, 25 lads from the Rep. of Ireland or a group from the British Isles? It has been said about money and getting on the squad. 100 euro will fly return to England. If a man or woman cannot afford that, well he should not be in F-class because at 1 euro a round the flight is the cheap part. As for squad selection you all seem to agree that the only long-range range in IRELAND is the MRC so anybody who is shooting F-CLASS is probably one of the 25 going to Bisley. There would be no point in any one else going because they havent been shooting long-range because they have nowhere to shoot? I am wondering is there something else bothering people, maybe they are afraid that the NRAI will go looking for funding from the Sports Council, maybe that's what behind all this aggression? Maybe take away funding from some other group but I also believe that a puppet master up North must feel time is running out and that a new and true Ireland team is "rising from the ashes" with the Green, White and Orange on their chest, not the CROWN OVER THE SHAMROCK, that's what I saw on the so called IRELAND TEAM of the past and that has been going on for years?
All I can say is the best of luck lads in the week ahead and do your best and keep that boudica twit locked up .
Sorry for any spelling mistakes leupold it has taken me 1hour and 15 min to
one finger type this out.

:mad:

Rew

Leupold wrote:

You are on the ball REW!I wonder if Nemo has been watching Bleak House on the BBC?

Ill happily ban you as well I dont want to see anynthing directed at indviduals. If people can't get their point accross without abusing each other shooting in Ireland is doomed.

Amazing how many replies this thead gets and I start one about GUNS and BULLETS and SHOOTING and it gets one decent reply!

Rew

disco kid wrote:

Sorry for any spelling mistakes leupold it has taken me 1hour and 15 min to
one finger type this out.

Speling seems ok (better then mine ) paragraphs would be nice though.

disco kid

I said sorry!

Leupold

disco kid wrote:

I wonder if Sparks or Leupold or 1911 or anybody else can comment on the following observation:- etc.etc


:

Disco, some people from the 26 counties have been shooting F class for a few years now. We had people shooting in the world championships in Canada recentely. MRC is the only comfortable Long Range rifle range in Southern Ireland at present But other informal facilities are available and used. In addition,a dedicated group of long range rifle shooters have shot in Ballykinler for the last 30 years, Target ,and more recentely F class ,so your assumption that only those who shoot at the MRC have any experience or practise is incorrect. There are F class shooters in Ireland with far more experience of International competitions than all, or at least most, of the 25 squad you refer to. They were not informed or even aware of the Bisley trip until the Boudica post so the NRAI is not putting the best foot forward for the country is it?
As regards your comment on funding, my understanding is that the NRAI has already looked for funding unsuccesfully so this is not an issue, This flurry of activity on the issue has been caused by discovering, on this board, that an "Irish" team is competing in Bisley, when a number of shooters, who would have been well placed in any competitive selection process, did not know about it because of the inability of the NRAI to take it's NGB responsibilities seriously.The only agression I have seen in this debate has come from the proponents of the NRAI/MNSCI, one of whom has just been banned,
I would love to see this thing settled to everyones satisfaction and I believe this is possible, As Sparks points out, there is very little history and no personal animosity that I am aware of.

disco kid

BK is in the UK
Is there a rule that if you have shoot for a team you cannot shoot for a different team for two years? If these guys have been shooting for years who have they been shooting for? - the crown and shamrock? Ballykinler is a closed club it was based on the Irish Open you only get in if you are wanted or don't shoot as well as others I have shot in both BK & MRC and still do, so I know what I'm talking about. Shooting the Irish Open in BK (British Army Base) and isn' t a selection prosess for any Irish squad. Sorry Leupold for any spelling mistakes or lack of paragraphs but I think you will get my meaning.
P.S. my typing finger is now half its original size.

skellig

Why dont you contact the N.R.A.I direct,rather than getting second hand information on the Boards.
Its all getting out of hand here.
I tried to inform you without success so I think its best I stop trying.In all the information that I have supplied especially to Leopold and Flag ,they seem to have accepted none , so why should I waste anymore of my time on this subject.
Im finished here,contact them directly yourselves to get correct firsthand information ,wouldnt that be the wisest thing to do !!


On a more positive note I am travelling to Bisley with the lads ,using my own hard earned money to fund it just like the rest of them im sure. It would be great to get funding from I.S.C (doubt it will happen) but no one should be dependent or expect a handout to pursue the sport you love, if you do unfortunately youll end up disappointed
I love my sport and there is no sport in this world that gives me ,and im sure lots of others such enjoyment and pleasure Long may it last
I will have four days in Bisley shooting F class,clasic rifles ,gallery, black powder pistol and of course the muzzle loading rifles.
The days are just not long enough!

I truly believe our sport is improving and growing stronger,its obvious,so enjoy while it lasts or better still work hard to make it better!!!!

Regards Skellig

MP

skellig wrote:

Im finished here,contact them directly yourselves to get correct firsthand information ,wouldnt that be the wisest thing to do !!

Regards Skellig

You are probably correct but I have tried and failed, any chance you could list the 5 clubs affiliated as I would like to join one of them? Thank you. MP

skellig

I know how you feel. I too have seen Union Jacks on the so called Ireland teams jackets.
There wont be one on my jacket just an Irish one green , white and orange and proud of it.
Dont get me wrong I have nothing against another countries flag
Im from the R.O.I so I will proudly wear the tricolour.
I will never forget the day when in Bisley they placed our flag amongst all the other international flags at the F clas competition in Bisley. What a proud day and all credit to the shooters involved
It wont be long until the N.R.A.I at the M.N.S.C.I will hold an F class international and im sure will hoist any competing countries flag gladly.

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

Sparks, why was my response to skellig deleted?

It was not deleted, it's still here on page three of this thread.

Sparks

disco kid wrote:

I wonder if Sparks or Leupold or 1911 or anybody else can comment on the following observation:

Leaving aside the examples of the Irish soccer team (mostly chaps living and working in the UK or elsewhere abroad), and other such examples, I'll just point out that the rule regarding nationality for the NTSA teams is that anyone representing Ireland in an ISSF match has to be eligible to hold an Irish passport. That means you might see people on the Irish team who aren't from the Republic. Hell, two of the three rifle shooters who made it to the Olympics in the last two decades were from outside the Republic. That's the nature of the game, up North had better .22 facilities (and still do so far for ISSF shooting, and probably won't be challanged until RRPC's new range is built). Down here we had better air rifle shooting and so the air rifle shooter who went to Atlanta came from the Republic. Until things are established, it's often the case that the facilities lead the sport. Best answer to that problem (it's a problem because it means that if the facility is damaged or shut down, the whole sport is put at risk) is to build more facilities!

Who would you rather see shoot for the country, 25 lads from the Rep. of Ireland or a group from the British Isles?

So long as they all carry Irish passports and declare for Ireland, I want to see the best shooters represent the country.

It has been said about money and getting on the squad. 100 euro will fly return to England. If a man or woman cannot afford that, well he should not be in F-class because at 1 euro a round the flight is the cheap part.

Doesn't matter if it's one euro or one thousand to get to the competition though, it's the principle of the thing - the National Team is meant to be a sporting ideal, an example to hold up to aspiring shooters as a goal to strive towards; not a holiday tour you buy a seat on, or a trip abroad for a bunch of mates. That's the big deal that I'd have with this whole situation. You train with competitive juniors for long enough, you get a tad protective of the goals and dreams they tend to have; and shooting on the National Team in international competition, that tends to be one of them. That's why the Tyrol Open argument was so heated, that's why this point is so important. It's not about whether or not a team is sent; it's about the goals we can set for ourselves.

disco kid

Leupold wrote:

Disco, some people from the 26 counties have been shooting F class for a few years now. We had people shooting in the world championships in Canada recentely. MRC is the only comfortable Long Range rifle range in Southern Ireland at present But other informal facilities are available and used. In addition,a dedicated group of long range rifle shooters have shot in Ballykinler for the last 30 years, Target ,and more recentely F class ,so your assumption that only those who shoot at the MRC have any experience or practise is incorrect. There are F class shooters in Ireland with far more experience of International competitions than all, or at least most, of the 25 squad you refer to. They were not informed or even aware of the Bisley trip until the Boudica post so the NRAI is not putting the best foot forward for the country is it?
As regards your comment on funding, my understanding is that the NRAI has already looked for funding unsuccesfully so this is not an issue, This flurry of activity on the issue has been caused by discovering, on this board, that an "Irish" team is competing in Bisley, when a number of shooters, who would have been well placed in any competitive selection process, did not know about it because of the inability of the NRAI to take it's NGB responsibilities seriously.The only agression I have seen in this debate has come from the proponents of the NRAI/MNSCI, one of whom has just been banned,
I would love to see this thing settled to everyones satisfaction and I believe this is possible, As Sparks points out, there is very little history and no personal animosity that I am aware of.

Can you tell me who these international shooters that went to Canada shot for?Was it Ireland up the north or Ireland down south ? Can you tell me were they shot to get on the squad? Can you tell me what other clubs were made aware of the trials and how they were notafied? I heard nothing about a trip to Canada.:)
I have a feeling these are the same guys that used to shoot in MRC in the early days . they had target rifles MRC lads bruno .270. As time went by MRC lads get new guns (65*284) international shooters go skweeeeeeeeeeel all the way back up to the UK (ballykinler) never to be seen again .Then out of the blue or should i say green come the rep of Ireland suddenly these international shooters dont want to be seen along side there english team mates on the Ireland Team .co.uk .The fact is they got it tight to get a team for the last meet in Bisley? Maybe the lads will meet them over their this
time and they can share a bowl of cambells cock a leeke soup nice and hot!

leupold forgive for the bad spelling but im shattered
I could not get asleep thinking of how them international shooters in Canada
got selected? shere you will tell me tomarrow?

FLAG

Sparks wrote:

It was not deleted, it's still here on page three of this thread.

Sparks

It was my response to his comments with respect to the post that you linked to!

civdef

FLAG - as far as I can see, no posts from you were deleted in the last two days (I can check back further if necessary)....

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

Sparks
It was my response to his comments with respect to the post that you linked to!

Do you mean this post, also on page 3 of the thread and also untouched, or another post?

Leupold

disco kid wrote:

Can you tell me who these international shooters that went to Canada shot for?Was it Ireland up the north or Ireland down south ? Can you tell me were they shot to get on the squad? Can you tell me what other clubs were made aware of the trials and how they were notafied? I heard nothing about a trip to Canada.:)
I have a feeling these are the same guys that used to shoot in MRC in the early days . they had target rifles MRC lads bruno .270. As time went by MRC lads get new guns (65*284) international shooters go skweeeeeeeeeeel all the way back up to the UK (ballykinler) never to be seen again .Then out of the blue or should i say green come the rep of Ireland suddenly these international shooters dont want to be seen along side there english team mates on the Ireland Team .co.uk .The fact is they got it tight to get a team for the last meet in Bisley? Maybe the lads will meet them over their this
time and they can share a bowl of cambells cock a leeke soup nice and hot!

leupold forgive for the bad spelling but im shattered
I could not get asleep thinking of how them international shooters in Canada
got selected? shere you will tell me tomarrow?

The men who went to the world championship in Canada went as individuals not as a team so your argument about selection is redundant. They practised where they could, primarily Ballykinler as MRC did not allow individuals to turn up and shoot there. As for the rest of your comments they do not make any sense.
I mentioned the shooters who went to Canada and the ones who go to Ballykinler, to remind you that NRAI/MNSCI does not hold the monopoly on skill for long range rifle shooting, whatever the equipment. You never know, maybe the NRAI/MNSCI will advertise open shoots to develop the national squad, allowing all licensed and insured shooters with long range rifles to compete. Then we will see where the skill is and who should be on the team.

On a different note, I thought the jingoistic attitude to harps and crowns had dissapeared in our community. I also note the double think involved in praising the people who shoot in Bisley and condemming those who shoot in BK.

disco kid

Leupold wrote:

The men who went to the world championship in Canada went as individuals not as a team so your argument about selection is redundant. They practised where they could, primarily Ballykinler as MRC did not allow individuals to turn up and shoot there. As for the rest of your comments they do not make any sense.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif


I think it is you that dose not make sence Leupold
when Dave Cooney went to Canada John Paul from MRC took time off work
to set up 1000yrd for him to practice on!. Mike Ryan did the butts for him.
And cahal ward wrote about it in the shooters Digest (The first man to shoot a 1000yrs in Ireland) MRC did it free of charge i may add as he was not a member of MRC. Its people like you with short memories that give good people bad names?
This is the last time i will post on this tread because it is going round & round and im getting dizzy!. I hope real shooting people will see the truth behind
the bitter words of others that dont have shooing at heart.
keep shooting and stay safe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
O sorry Leupold for any spelling mistakes.

Leupold

disco kid wrote:

when Dave Cooney went to Canada John Paul from MRC took time off work
to set up 1000yrd for him to practice on!. Mike Ryan did the butts for him.
And cahal ward wrote about it in the shooters Digest (The first man to shoot a 1000yrs in Ireland) MRC did it free of charge i may add as he was not a member of MRC. Its people like you with short memories that give good people bad names?

I am delighted to hear this Disco. Do I take it then that the MRC will facilitate any Longe range Rifle shooter who wants to practise for a competition? And, if you knew who it was who went to Canada. why did you ask a nonsensical question about team selection?