Krav Maga

gcdublin

Hi Pat. Sorry about the subject there's loads of posts going on in here, just want you to see this one when you get a chance. I'm not having a go or anything. If you read thru my posts all I'm saying is it wasn't for me. I was indeed bitten in a class and did think it was a little "heavy handed" that's all.

Apologies for forgetting it was a 12 week course, although it was quite some time ago (probably 8-10 months ago I'd say). I did in fact do the course- The course was on in Brunswick St on a Monday from 8-10.30pm. I can tell you your assistants name . I can tell you the names of some of the other people on the course, who I think are still practising KM to this day. I can tell you where you used to work, we spoke about it one evening as I'm in the IT game myself. I can tell you what car you used to drive.

Apologies if I sound like a stalker of any kind its nothing like that I assure you I really just dont want to come in here give my opinion, which was honest, and not an attack on anyone, and it to be implied that I did not in fact do the course.

Colm_OReilly

I tried to post a reply to Paul and Coupe earlier but the boards were down. Too lazy to post another now (it was long and I should have saved it) but I'll try to get back to you soon.

Thanks for the interest guys!
Colm

Clive

pma-ire wrote:

If a practical approach to a street situation could be taken then I would be happier (JK's offer seems to be addressing this).

What I mean by addressing this situation is thinking how to avoid the dangers of when on the ground and throwing to the ground, eg. hard surfaces and soft bodies with pointly joints. The removal of the single goal of beating the man, and thinking about who is gonna jump on and help him out.

I hav'int seen a comment from any MMA'er on this, and it is the only thing that I have a gripe about.

If some scummer got me on the ground in a real fight I'd bridge or sweep him and stamp on his head.

Yes the ground is hard and I'd prefer not to be slammed into it, which is why I do some clinchwork, but unless I start running into rogue judoka and wrestlers on a frequent basis, I'm happy enough that the only way* I'm going to end up on the ground in a real fight is by slipping, being sideswiped or in a tangled mass of bodies.

* With the exception of being double legged into a puddle of vomit by surprise at a party. Cheers for that 2KM.

pma-ire

Clive wrote:

If some scummer got me on the ground in a real fight I'd bridge or sweep him and stamp on his head.

Yes the ground is hard and I'd prefer not to be slammed into it, which is why I do some clinchwork, but unless I start running into rogue judoka and wrestlers on a frequent basis, I'm happy enough that the only way* I'm going to end up on the ground in a real fight is by slipping, being sideswiped or in a tangled mass of bodies.

* With the exception of being double legged into a puddle of vomit by surprise at a party. Cheers for that 2KM.

Clive man, it don't take a Judoka or Wrestler or any kind of MA'ist to put you on the ground. All it takes is a mental nutter that charges through you and takes you down with him.

We (MA'ists) all hope that our stand-up skills will keep us there in a real fight. But you can't say "I would just do this and that and I'm sorted". You can't fortell what a nutter will do with intent on his mind, we can only give ourselves a chance by covering the skills that might need to be used to get out of those situations.

columok

LOL

Im pretty sure that any mental nutter that charged in at Clive would very much regret it. I cant see any random scumbag putting Clive, myself or anyone else with a decent clinch game on the floor. Clinch is clinch whether its on the street, in training, in the cage/ring or at Clive's party! A good clinch game will, as Clive says it make sure that "the only way* I'm going to end up on the ground in a real fight is by slipping, being sideswiped or in a tangled mass of bodies."

pma-ire

columok wrote:

LOL

Im pretty sure that any mental nutter that charged in at Clive would very much regret it. I cant see any random scumbag putting Clive, myself or anyone else with a decent clinch game on the floor. Clinch is clinch whether its on the street, in training, in the cage/ring or at Clive's party! A good clinch game will, as Clive says it make sure that "the only way* I'm going to end up on the ground in a real fight is by slipping, being sideswiped or in a tangled mass of bodies."

Don't be kidding yourselves lads :rolleyes: It might be a lower risk than to the average Joe Soap. But it could still happen and I am suprised to hear such a "Sure my way is the ultimate way" tripe. Or maybe I'm not ??

columok

Who mentioned anyone's way being "the ultimate way"?

Who mentioned style?

Clinch is clinch. Call it Judo, Wrestling, Sambo its clinch. You can train good clinch and you can train bad clinch. You have a good clinch game. You dont have a good clinch game. This isnt rocket science.

To put someone on the ground (not including accidental) you need to hit them hard, tackle them or throw them.

Tackling and throwing are covered by anyone who covers clinch. You get so used to people trying to rugby tackle you, slam you etc. that some drunken scumbag trying to rugby tackle me is gonna go to sleep or end up sitting under me. I train against professional athletes day in day out. I train against some of the best clinch fighters in Ireland. What chance does some bum have?

So suspend your surprise and shock/horror and go and train some clinch!

dent

columok wrote:

LOL

Im pretty sure that any mental nutter that charged in at Clive would very much regret it. I cant see any random scumbag putting Clive, myself or anyone else with a decent clinch game on the floor. Clinch is clinch whether its on the street, in training, in the cage/ring or at Clive's party! A good clinch game will, as Clive says it make sure that "the only way* I'm going to end up on the ground in a real fight is by slipping, being sideswiped or in a tangled mass of bodies."

Assumption is the mother of all F ups. Clinch is a whole different game on the street.

columok

Clinch is a whole different game on the street.

Really?

dent

columok wrote:

Really?

Well your wearing jackets, shirts and belts. Uneven surfaces. Bottles and even Big Mac rappers can cause you to slip. Walls and lamposts and cars also change the enviroment. The fundamentals are the same but its a different game.

pma-ire

columok wrote:

Who mentioned anyone's way being "the ultimate way"?

Who mentioned style?

I did'int ?? I said that you were saying your way was the fool proof way.

columok wrote:

Clinch is clinch. Call it Judo, Wrestling, Sambo its clinch. You can train good clinch and you can train bad clinch. You have a good clinch game. You dont have a good clinch game. This isnt rocket science.

This is a part of training yes, and like anything else, you can get very good at it (I'm sure you are). But if your walking around thinking that your the donkey's bollo*ks at everything then you will be put down by some spacer who don't care how good you think you are.

columok wrote:

To put someone on the ground (not including accidental) you need to hit them hard, tackle them or throw them.

Tackling and throwing are covered by anyone who covers clinch. You get so used to people trying to rugby tackle you, slam you etc. that some drunken scumbag trying to rugby tackle me is gonna go to sleep or end up sitting under me. I train against professional athletes day in day out. I train against some of the best clinch fighters in Ireland. What chance does some bum have?

Lots if your attitude is like that. The guy thats most dangerous is the one that don't care how many professional athletes you train against he's got it in his head and thats that. I'm sure you would be conditioned enough to take the majority of plonkers. I just hope you don't meet that one that gets his spot in.

columok wrote:

So suspend your surprise and shock/horror and go and train some clinch!

I continue to try and expand my ability in all aspects of combat, and no matter how much I will ever learn or how good I get in the hall I will never underestimate the next person that threatens me.

dent

pma-ire wrote:

no matter how much I will ever learn or how good I get in the hall I will never underestimate the next person that threatens me.

Spot on.

Millionaire

I am amazed reading the above thread how sure the MMA lads are of their ability on the street.

There is no way ever you can be so sure. You get some nutter who is vodka and re bulled and coked out of their brain attack you, when your least expecting it (as happnes alot of the time), there is no way you can be so sure. You could be seeing stars before you even know whats has happened.

Colm_OReilly

This thread has become nothing more than a prime example of StrawMan Arguments

Colm

dent

Colm_OReilly wrote:

This thread has become nothing more than a prime example of StrawMan Arguments

Colm

Which posts. I hardly see how my comments are an example of StrawMan.

columok

Well your wearing jackets, shirts and belts. Uneven surfaces. Bottles and even Big Mac rappers can cause you to slip. Walls and lamposts and cars also change the enviroment. The fundamentals are the same but its a different game.

None of these things can be accounted for in training realistically. Luck aside once you have the fundamentals you can adapt your game. Who says that I cannot use "the dreaded street" to my advantage. I can do this much more that someone who hasn't being training against resisting opponents in Standup, Clinch and Ground! I dont assume that everywhere I go has a soft evenly matted area. Actually screw that- I dont get in fights and to be honest I dont think about it!

I said that you were saying your way was the fool proof way.

Wow! I dont remember saying that. You still dont get the "way" thing is completely irrelevent. I train Clinch. I train what works in the clinch. I dont train in some way!

This is a part of training yes, and like anything else, you can get very good at it (I'm sure you are). But if your walking around thinking that your the donkey's bollo*ks at everything then you will be put down by some spacer who don't care how good you think you are.

Well because the dreaded street doesnt really concern me I dont walk around thinking Im the donkey's boll0x. I dont get into street fights and I stay out of trouble. Why do you assume that Im some kind of arrogant meathead that goes around looking for junkies to slam?

Lots if your attitude is like that. The guy thats most dangerous is the one that don't care how many professional athletes you train against he's got it in his head and thats that. I'm sure you would be conditioned enough to take the majority of plonkers. I just hope you don't meet that one that gets his spot in.

Thats not an attitude, thats a fact. If you train against the best day in day out- realistically someone on the street isnt gonna cause you too many problems IN THE CLINCH RANGE ! Sucker punches etc are always a possibility but the discussion relates to Clive being taken down to the ground.

I am amazed reading the above thread how sure the MMA lads are of their ability on the street.

A little rich coming from someone who does Krav Maga with it's outlandish streetfighter J-Lo beating up abusive husband claims!

There is no way ever you can be so sure. You get some nutter who is vodka and re bulled and coked out of their brain attack you, when your least expecting it (as happnes alot of the time), there is no way you can be so sure. You could be seeing stars before you even know whats has happened.

And again I repeat- we're talking about the clinch range. Not striking. Not ground. The clinch range. Myself and clive have already admitted to the dangers of being hit in the side of the head. If youre gonna attack us en masse at least know what you're attacking!

Millionaire

I think Colum if you can leave the personal insults out re my doing KM . This is a discussion we all have been having here, no need for childish insults.

If you want to lower things to insults about what type of training people like to do, your better stay out of the disussion.

columok

Dude, Take a joke. I was referring to the movie "Enough" where Jennifer Lopez becomes a war machine by learning Krav Maga. How is that an insult on YOUR character? You are not your style.

dent

columok wrote:

None of these things can be accounted for in training realistically. Luck aside once you have the fundamentals you can adapt your game. Who says that I cannot use "the dreaded street" to my advantage. I can do this much more that someone who hasn't being training against resisting opponents in Standup, Clinch and Ground! I dont assume that everywhere I go has a soft evenly matted area. Actually screw that- I dont get in fights and to be honest I dont think about it!

If you can't account for them in training its prime reason why you should not make assumptions about how you handle them. I don't think any practical martial art kids itself into thinking it can train for these situations and for that reason they don't make comments like the below.

columok wrote:

Im pretty sure that any mental nutter that charged in at Clive would very much regret it. I cant see any random scumbag putting Clive, myself or anyone else with a decent clinch game on the floor. Clinch is clinch whether its on the street, in training, in the cage/ring or at Clive's party! A good clinch game will, as Clive says it make sure that "the only way* I'm going to end up on the ground in a real fight is by slipping, being sideswiped or in a tangled mass of bodies."

pma-ire

columok wrote:

None of these things can be accounted for in training realistically. Luck aside once you have the fundamentals you can adapt your game. Who says that I cannot use "the dreaded street" to my advantage. I can do this much more that someone who hasn't being training against resisting opponents in Standup, Clinch and Ground! I dont assume that everywhere I go has a soft evenly matted area.

I like your comment here!

columok wrote:

Actually screw that- I dont get in fights and to be honest I dont think about it!

But then this means that we should'int even be having this conversation? I don't get in fights either. But this is due to me not going out as much as I used to and the fact that I don't is not a reason for me to stop the way I think I should be training. As for own training, I don't see the point unless it can be applied to a street situation, and as I have said before I do actually like the fundementals that MMA has.

columok wrote:

Wow! I dont remember saying that. You still dont get the "way" thing is completely irrelevent. I train Clinch. I train what works in the clinch. I dont train in some way!

It was not what you said, but what you implied

Originally Posted by columok

LOL

Im pretty sure that any mental nutter that charged in at Clive would very much regret it. I cant see any random scumbag putting Clive, myself or anyone else with a decent clinch game on the floor. Clinch is clinch whether its on the street, in training, in the cage/ring or at Clive's party! A good clinch game will, as Clive says it make sure that "the only way* I'm going to end up on the ground in a real fight is by slipping, being sideswiped or in a tangled mass of bodies."

columok wrote:

Well because the dreaded street doesnt really concern me I dont walk around thinking Im the donkey's boll0x. I dont get into street fights and I stay out of trouble. Why do you assume that Im some kind of arrogant meathead that goes around looking for junkies to slam?

I don't like real fights either. That is why I try to find a way to avoid, de-fuse or finish as fast as I can.

columok wrote:

Thats not an attitude, thats a fact. If you train against the best day in day out- realistically someone on the street isnt gonna cause you too many problems IN THE CLINCH RANGE ! Sucker punches etc are always a possibility but the discussion relates to Clive being taken down to the ground.

We all hope this and it why we train really is'int it ?

columok wrote:

A little rich coming from someone who does Krav Maga with it's outlandish streetfighter J-Lo beating up abusive husband claims!

[/QUOTE]
The most childish comment I have ever seen posted in my life! No point in even explaining why :rolleyes:

columok wrote:

And again I repeat- we're talking about the clinch range. Not striking. Not ground. The clinch range. Myself and clive have already admitted to the dangers of being hit in the side of the head. If youre gonna attack us en masse at least know what you're attacking!

This part of the multi-coloured thread that is KM (we should'int even be talking about this here ) was about being able to cover all ranges of attack. It went to the ground because I was trying to give the point that this had to be covered. It went to clinching because Clive took it there and so...

If your gonna talk come into a thread and make such comments as you have you might try to understand where the thread is going at the time and not make up your own mind as to what it is.

I don't like being a part of this type of tripe and I hope not to see it again as it drags down a good site.

pma-ire

john123xyz wrote:

Abusive Quote Removed - Colm

Your mind and point of view is so closed that you must keep walking into walls :rolleyes:

If you had a problem with KM and PC then I would have liked to read it. But not in the way you have posted about it ?

You have a serious problem

Millionaire

"Barn Door Kick" is a pretty good kick, basically its a front stomp kick to lower stomach area. not unlike a Thai Boxer thrust type kick, but more heel of boot in it.

I actually was sparring at kickboxing recently, and it worked out execllent, got it under by partners guard. Should have seen shock on his face.

Great kick to compliment to the more standard front kick I did for years. and I find it easier to get in in sparring too.

PS and no your arms don't flail, if you were paying attention, you were told to keep your guard up when doing the kick.

columok

But then this means that we should'int even be having this conversation? I don't get in fights either. But this is due to me not going out as much as I used to and the fact that I don't is not a reason for me to stop the way I think I should be training. As for own training, I don't see the point unless it can be applied to a street situation, and as I have said before I do actually like the fundementals that MMA has.

Well to be honest aside from message boards like this one I rarely entertain the notions of "street situations". Generally MMA and BJJ gyms dont tend to bother with "the street" either. That doesnt mean the MMA/BJJ are any less effective on the street!

I don't like real fights either. That is why I try to find a way to avoid, de-fuse or finish as fast as I can.

But I think that to even entertain notions of the street unless you work in a risky business (e.g bouncer, garda) is unhealthy. It breeds paranoia!

The most childish comment I have ever seen posted in my life! No point in even explaining why

Well the point that I was making albeit in an overly flippant way was that its unfair for a KM person to accuse MMA people of being overly confident "on the street" when it continually publicly makes such outlandish claims itself. KM claims that it can teach people to defend themselves cutting out all the regular training and conditioning that every other combat sport relies on.

This part of the multi-coloured thread that is KM (we should'int even be talking about this here ) was about being able to cover all ranges of attack. It went to the ground because I was trying to give the point that this had to be covered. It went to clinching because Clive took it there and so...

You cant telegraph where the thread goes. You raised the issue of it being possible for some random scumbag to take down someone who fights pro MMA and has a very solid clinch game. I countered this. I was only countering the point that you made and as such was not "bringing the thread anywhere".

If your gonna talk come into a thread and make such comments as you have you might try to understand where the thread is going at the time and not make up your own mind as to what it is.

I only countered points that people made. I didnt "make up my own mind as to what it is". People then decided to put subtexts and other meanings into what I said.

I don't like being a part of this type of tripe and I hope not to see it again as it drags down a good site.

Try not to be so sanctimonious. People have different methods of arguing and something like the internet continually causes miscommunication!

columok

Millionaire,

sounds like a Muay Thai teep alright. The thing is that just because you with FC Kickboxing experience can integrate it into YOUR game doesnt mean a housewife or unfit businessman can do the same.

I cant imagine someone with limited training time, sparring time and conditioning being able to use this effectively.

pma-ire

columok wrote:

Well to be honest aside from message boards like this one I rarely entertain the notions of "street situations". Generally MMA and BJJ gyms dont tend to bother with "the street" either. That doesnt mean the MMA/BJJ are any less effective on the street!

I never said that it was'int?

columok wrote:

But I think that to even entertain notions of the street unless you work in a risky business (e.g bouncer, garda) is unhealthy. It breeds paranoia!

No it don't! For me there is no point in training unless it's for the street. For you it's not and thats cool. I totally agree that getting fundementals nailed down is paramount to anything else.[/QUOTE]

columok wrote:

Well the point that I was making albeit in an overly flippant way was that its unfair for a KM person to accuse MMA people of being overly confident "on the street" when it continually publicly makes such outlandish claims itself. KM claims that it can teach people to defend themselves cutting out all the regular training and conditioning that every other combat sport relies on.

That seems to be the way they are promoing themselves and it would be an issue for me also. But after seeing that they do infact have a further range of training and instruction, it would be no more like many's the club poster and advert seen with words like "Ultimate", "Best", "Complete" and so on...

columok wrote:

You cant telegraph where the thread goes. You raised the issue of it being possible for some random scumbag to take down someone who fights pro MMA and has a very solid clinch game. I countered this. I was only countering the point that you made and as such was not "bringing the thread anywhere".

This thread was well off topic long before this.

columok wrote:

I only countered points that people made. I didnt "make up my own mind as to what it is". People then decided to put subtexts and other meanings into what I said.

I said read the back ground posts as it seemed that we were not speaking in context.

columok wrote:

Try not to be so sanctimonious. People have different methods of arguing and something like the internet continually causes miscommunication!

Excuse me? Can you please tell me where I fit into this definition.

Sanctimonious
Making a show of sanctity; affecting saintliness;
hypocritically devout or pious. ``Like the sanctimonious
pirate.''

columok

That seems to be the way they are promoing themselves and it would be an issue for me also. But after seeing that they do infact have a further range of training and instruction, it would be no more like many's the club poster and advert seen with words like "Ultimate", "Best", "Complete" and so on...

Well my issue wouldnt be with those who train weekly, Id take issue at people doing a small course (weekend, 12 week) and thinking they could realistically defend themselves!

Excuse me? Can you please tell me where I fit into this definition.

Well in saying that you dont like to be involved in such "tripe" I felt that this was sanctimonious in that you showed indignation and disgust at something that is a bog standard internet argument.

sanc·ti·mo·ni·ous
Pronunciation Key (sngkt-mn-s)
adj.

Feigning piety or righteousness

pma-ire

columok wrote:

Well in saying that you dont like to be involved in such "tripe" I felt that this was sanctimonious in that you showed indignation and disgust at something that is a bog standard internet argument.

Yes this is the bog standard of internet arguments.

I suppose my open, even nature get rubbed the wrong way by closed comments.

Millionaire

My personal view is that street training should be your #1 goal. thats my # 1 goal from my training. also on the list is fitness, fun, working off stress, and making new friends at training.

I do not think that because some of us choose to train for the street as #1 goal makes you parnoid or anything like that. I does make you more aware though, which is great , as you are better armed to avoid trouble or diffuse a potential situation before it escalates. of course if it does.....

I always believe in keeping an open mind, and reading to learn and to gain from others experience.

I think to get an idea of street situations, reading "A bouncers guide to bar room brawlling" by Peton Quinn (Padlin Press) is a Must. this guy knows what he 's talking about and really shoots from the hip in his book.

of course anything by Geoff Thompson is great too for real insight. even if you look at this video "real punching" Geoff says the guy who attacks you on the street "does not give a monkeys f**k if your a 10th dan or desparate dan...he just wants to take your head off!" Good Old Geoff...great man for setting the real fighting record straight!!!

Tim_Murphy

For me there is no point in training unless it's for the street.

I presonally don't understand why anyone would go training 2 or 3 times a week to learn self defence or to train for 'the street'. I'm not saying its an unhealthy mindset, I just don't really see why you would unless you're a bodyguard or whatever.

Millionaire

I guess we all have our own personal interests, and the group of us who do this, we all have our own goals, but i 'm sure a popular one would be mastery of the fundementals that we practice. (and no I am not a bodyguard, though some train on ocasion, as well as police, prision offer, & soldiers etc).

More important I really enjoy this type of training and that is the main thing.

Or like in kickboxing you might train 2 - 3 nights a week but if you got a fight coming up in 3 months ur going to be training 4 - 5 times, doing road work, watch the booze and diet etc