GAA to seek €50m for ditching Rule 42

thejollyrodger

Looks like the GAA are looking for a sweetner to open up Croker ! Hopefully the money will be enough to open the stadium:)

GAA to seek €50m for ditching Rule 42
20/11/2004 - 13:34:26
http://breaking.tcm.ie/2004/11/20/story176813.html
The GAA will seek a grant of €50m from the Government if Rule 42, governing the opening up of Croke Park, is overturned at Congress next April.

GAA President Sean Kelly confirmed that his Association would seek the bursary from the Government to solve the stadium crisis that exists for rugby and soccer.

Kelly has also warned that the FAI and the IRFU would face hefty rental charges for the use of the stadium.

"There is no reason why we shouldn’t make a request for a further grant to help us clear off the debt on Croke Park," he said.

"We would be in a strong position to do so because if we offer to open up Croke Park, subject to certain conditions, the decision as to whether Irish rugby and soccer teams play overseas will then be up to others.

"Nobody can accuse us of not being good neighbours which will most certainly happen if our international teams end up playing in Britain while Croke Park remains closed."

Several counties look set to propose the removal of Rule 42 at Congress in April.

mike65

Ah blackmail, thats okay then...

Mike.

Danno

Fair enough - €50m is not too much to ask for. The govt have already squandered €250m on *bertie bowel*. The govt are sh1tting money anyways. if they get it well and good, if not it was worth a shot...

Villain

And I thought it wasn't about Money!!

As I have always said GAA = Grab All Association, but they can grab whatever they like as long as they open Croker up.

thejollyrodger

I think its fair enough. The FAI/IRFU are going to take most of the gate recipets and the GAA has be be looked after since it is more than a sport, its culture.

I still cant see soccer and rugby being played there just yet but if it comes down to a matter of just money I cant see the government holding back.

But 75,000 supporters at the France and Switzerland match would most likely help secure the two wins !!:)

Imposter

thejollyrodger wrote:

But 75,000 supporters at the France and Switzerland match would most likely help secure the two wins !!:)

You're dreaming if you think it'll be open for them OR that the FAI would want ot play there for those games seeing as lansdowne is still available.

Asking for an extra 50m is a bit sly tbh, seeing as it's quite likely to pass by congress anyways this year. In saying that the rents would be very high for the FAI and the IRFU, as it should be and I suppose this 50m would have the effect of lessening this rent.

I'm also surprised at the timing of this request as i'm sure the GAA will make sure that Lansdowne is being redeveloped before finally agreeing to letting the IRFU and the FAI play there.

eirebhoy

If this €50m does end up being paid I certainly hope Ireland play more than just the 4 Euro qualifiers there.

Imposter

eirebhoy wrote:

If this €50m does end up being paid I certainly hope Ireland play more than just the 4 Euro qualifiers there.

Do you mean friendlies while lansdowne is out of action or further qualifiers? If it's the later then they need to build lansdowne bigger if there is the demand for it. It would defeat the purpose of spending so much money on lansdowne if they were to move any game where they may get a full house in Lansdowne to Croker!

thejollyrodger

I think the government should give the GAA the €50million and play all rugby and soccer games there (games that are over the current capacity of lansdowne) until the new lansdowne road is complete. After that the can either go back to the way things were or play all games there over 50k simple.

DUB

irish1 wrote:

And I thought it wasn't about Money!!

As I have always said GAA = Grab All Association, but they can grab whatever they like as long as they open Croker up.

Grab all association ah yes, very original :rolleyes: The GAA is an amateur association, no chief exec's getting half a million euro pay offs or players getting paid wages their clubs can't afford. All the money goes back into the association, that is how they could afford to build the place in the first instance.

Sean Kelly needs to convince GAA members that opening up Croke Park is a beneficial move for the GAA, otherwise a lot of members are not interested in helping out what are essentially competing sports.

Unless there is a sound and hefty financial case to be made for opening it can you explane to me why GAA members should help out the IRFU or FAI?

DUB

eirebhoy wrote:

If this €50m does end up being paid I certainly hope Ireland play more than just the 4 Euro qualifiers there.

With all the asbestos in lansdowne the building is going to take a good bit longer then first thought, the work is supposed to start in 05 and end in 08?

Someone else said above 75,000 fans the capacity of croke park will be 82,000 very shortly.

You all talk about the GAA being money grabbing, why cant the FAI just bite the bullet and play in Tolka or Dalymount during rebuilding? Are they afraid of loosing a bit of money in the short term? Also the new ticket prices for the Ireland soccer Interntaionals are a disgrace, 50 bills for a lower west stand ticket for a meaningless friendly and 60 bills for a competitive match, including against the mighty Cyprus! Only the all Ireland final is anything like that expensive, who is ripping their supporters off?

DUB

Danno wrote:

Fair enough - €50m is not too much to ask for. The govt have already squandered €250m on *bertie bowel*. The govt are sh1tting money anyways. if they get it well and good, if not it was worth a shot...

Exactly, it is the government that has messed the FAI around over the whole Bertie Bowl, why are people giving the GAA grief?

Waylander

DUB wrote:

Grab all association ah yes, very original :rolleyes: The GAA is an amateur association, no chief exec's getting half a million euro pay offs or players getting paid wages their clubs can't afford. All the money goes back into the association, that is how they could afford to build the place in the first instance.

Sean Kelly needs to convince GAA members that opening up Croke Park is a beneficial move for the GAA, otherwise a lot of members are not interested in helping out what are essentially competing sports.

Unless there is a sound and hefty financial case to be made for opening it can you explane to me why GAA members should help out the IRFU or FAI?

The players are all amateur but you will find that there are full time staff working for the GAA, and I would imagine that some of them are on very good salaries. Also with the revenues playing International soccer and rugby games generate, I do not think there is much doubt about whether such a move would prove profitable for the GAA.

DUB

Yes, there is a small number of professional administrators on decent money but nothing like what Rooney was reported to be on.

It would be profitable assuming they charge the right rent, you are missing the point, profitable is not enough, Kelly needs to convince GAA members that the Benefits to the association would far outweigh the perceived disadvantages.

Waylander

The percieved disadvantages are not financial, they are historical. I do not think the old boys in the GAA would swing there opinion here for any money. As regards the administrators, just because the GAA keep things in house better then the FAI, it does not mean they do not pay as highly. I do not know what the top guys in there get, I'd be interested to find out, but I'd be surprised if there were not a few people on six figure salaries.

DUB

True some of the auld lads will never change their mind for historical reasons, as is their right.

The majority of people who are undecided, like myself, can balance the pros [financial, goodwill] and cons [why help raise the profile of competing sports] as they stand. I dont think the GAA should be happy with a small profit in rent from each game, however a financial boost of that size plus rent would almost get rid of the stadium debt. Then the GAA could spend future gate recipts elsewhere where they are needed ie. the promotion and development of hurling, setting up new clubs in Dublin in expanding suburbs etc.

I believe Liam Mulvihill, the Director General of the GAA, is on less then 100,000 euro per annum, I certainly wouldnt begrudge him more the job he has done.

Waylander

I agree, I would not begrudge him whatever he earns either. I think that the GAA could clear a bigger profit then you think on renting out the stadium, after all, they can set the price themselves, it is up to the other associations if they want to pay it. Also by doing this they would be depriving their rival associations of grass roots investment funds, and would in turn be investing it themselves.

DUB

Well maybe they could make a decent amount from rent, I'm just saying that a sweetener of that size up front makes the financial argument very much more compelling, whereas before this statement i wasnt convinced by the financial arguement because the figures involved weren't clear, therefore it was hard to weigh up.

All I'm objecting really to is that the GAA are being called greedy when the FAI are threatening to play abroad in the first place for the simple reason that they can get more people in the stadium then they would if they were to play in Dalymount. ie. get more money. Also their ticket prices are far and away more expensive then the GAA. If any association is charging too much and constantly going on about money it is the FAI. How is the GAA getting the bad press for this?

Waylander

Yeah, fair enough, obviously anyone would like to get €50m up front. As regards the bad press, I think the FAI gets its share of that, although you are right it is certainly well deserved. I am actually a GAA fan, I just have issues patting the beurocracy on the back, they just frustrate me too much with alot of bullsh*t.

DUB

What i find particularly annoying is people in the pub in their manchester united jersey saying the government should 'make them open it' :mad:

Blackjack

let's not forget that for all the crapola in the Press, the Man U fans in the Pubs saying the Govt should "Make them open it" etc, that neither the FAI nor the IRFU have had the balls to ask the GAA for the use of the stadium. The FAI even included Croker in their proposals for the Euro 08 bid - without even clearing this with the GAA.

DUB

Good point. I think Brian Kerr, a man i have an awful lot of time for, summed up the situation very well last week.


Kerr Article

Imposter

Another often forgotten part of this whole getting rid of Rule 42 thing is happens to large provincial stadiums and even club grounds? The argument for Croke Park might be swung by the financial incentives but should the provincial and club grounds be available for rent? If they are who should decide this? If the current proposals go through I think it'll be a high up commitee that decides. But surely each county board and club should have the say on what happens to their stadiums.

DUB

I think if you start draging other ground into this then it will never be passed. In my eyes this is a one off for Corke Park only during the development of Lansdowne Road.

Imposter

DUB wrote:

I think if you start draging other ground into this then it will never be passed. In my eyes this is a one off for Corke Park only during the development of Lansdowne Road.

I don't agree. Abolishing Rule 42 means that all it is abolished for all GAA grounds and facilities. I think Rule 42 should be abolished but it has to be done properly. The owners of whatever ground or facility need to be able to decide what's best for themselves. Having Central council or whichever top level commitee deciding what should be done with a club ground is wrong imo.

This needs to be discussed alongside the discussion to abolish the rule and not as an afterthought. Getting it wrong could severely harm the association.

DUB

I think that is a debate that should take place, but i dont think it would be passed, i think it would be too much in one go to be palatable for a lot of people.

Imposter

DUB wrote:

I think that is a debate that should take place, but i dont think it would be passed, i think it would be too much in one go to be palatable for a lot of people.

Do you not think that the GAA has to do what is right for them? If that means taking a bit longer to debate the issues and the fallout from such a change then so be it. Personally I'd prefer if they took this time rather than rush it through just so that they can make a lot of money from Croker. The GAA don't owe the IRFU or the FAI anything so making sure they've fully considered all possible side effects of their actions is far more important, imo.

Blackjack

well, if you add in the other grounds, 50 Million seems quite cheap to open up the other grounds for capacity.
Particularly when Lansdowne is getting 191 Million from the Government to rebuild.

DUB

Imposter wrote:

Do you not think that the GAA has to do what is right for them? If that means taking a bit longer to debate the issues and the fallout from such a change then so be it. Personally I'd prefer if they took this time rather than rush it through just so that they can make a lot of money from Croker. The GAA don't owe the IRFU or the FAI anything so making sure they've fully considered all possible side effects of their actions is far more important, imo.

The GAA should absolutly do what is best for them and them alone, but i am all for ideas being debated.

I would be in favour of opening Croke Park alone for the duration of the redevelopment of Lansdowne road for the right financial package only. I dont see the demand or need for other venues to be opened, I suppose you are thinking of the Gaelic grounds in Limerick for big Munster matches? I see no harm in them playing the odd game in lansdowne road. I dont see the advantage to opening up every club house and pitch to Soccer clubs.

If the government is willing to fork out 200 million on the horse racing industry then I see 50 million to open Croke Park as nothing, horse racing already gets 65 million every year, and certain people get very rich out of, yes it employs lots of people so would any industry with that much government subsiby!

DUB

Blackjack wrote:

well, if you add in the other grounds, 50 Million seems quite cheap to open up the other grounds for capacity.
Particularly when Lansdowne is getting 191 Million from the Government to rebuild.

I think Sean Kelly had Croke Park alone in mind when he mentioned that figure.

Imposter

DUB wrote:

I would be in favour of opening Croke Park alone for the duration of the redevelopment of Lansdowne road for the right financial package only. I dont see the demand or need for other venues to be opened, I suppose you are thinking of the Gaelic grounds in Limerick for big Munster matches? I see no harm in them playing the odd game in lansdowne road. I dont see the advantage to opening up every club house and pitch to Soccer clubs.

I would also be in favour of opening Croker during the redevelopement of Lansdowne provided it was financially benificial and didn't interfere with GAA activities but ditching Rule 42 means that other facilities are now in the same position as well.

Opening a ground in Munster for the rugby team (should they want it) would be one consideration, as would a lot of Eircom league teams that perhaps could make use of extra capacity should some sort of miracle happen and the league became popular with supporters. But more relevant imo is what happens with club grounds and allowing the local Sunday league soccer team to play there? Should the club who ownd the ground have the final say on this? Should the county board, the provincial council or central council have the final say? These side-effects need to be discussed and legislated for to be included in the vote on Rule 42 and not done as an afterthought. The entire association needs to be in agreement on this so that no negative fallout should or can occur because of this decision.

DUB

I agree a national strategy couldnt do any harm. I dont think other grounds are going to be up for debate, I think they are going to remain closed and the opening of croke park because of these exceptional circumstances will be proposed.

Imposter

DUB wrote:

I agree a national strategy couldnt do any harm. I dont think other grounds are going to be up for debate, I think they are going to remain closed and the opening of croke park because of these exceptional circumstances will be proposed.

This is what I mean. Nobody knows what's going to happen. What i've read is that once the rule is abolished a commitee (I think it was central council) would have the power to make the decision about whether Croker should be opened. Seeing as the rule has the potential to affect all stadia then people should know who has the power to decide for these stadia.

Yavvy

one thing no one has talked about is thast this 50 mil was promised to the GAA a long time back but when the berti bowl went south and there was no sign of Hq opening up the funding dissapeard.

They are just looking for the money they were offered in the first place.

I want to see Ireland play infornt of an 82,000 home crowd in one of the most attractive stadiums in the europe. I hope it happens, then we can figure how to make Hill 16 a seating terrace for soccer !

DUB

That money, 40m, has finally been agreed to be paid.

This is a further 50m that Sean Kelly has said he will look for if Croke Park is to be opened. There is scare mongering going on about how much money home internationals generate to local business, some have even said in the region of 30 million per home game, therefore sean kelly is saying a 50 million grant would be little enough to keep these interntaionals here.

Would the fai get 80,000? maybe for the France game but i cant see them getting that many for friendlies or v Cyprus, not at the current ticket prices anyway.

Waylander

True they would be inlikely to gey 80,000 to freindlies, although I think they do sell out Landsdowne for most freindlies, which suggests a bigger stadium for these might be feasible. I think for the majority of competitive games tehy would sell 80,000 tickets without too much bother.

Imposter

I'm not so sure Waylander, Irish people are a funny species. If you look at events that are likely to be sold out then there's always a big huha and everyone wants tickets. Then look at events where there should be more than enough tickets and it'll never sell out as it doesn't generate the same publicity and people don't want to go in the same numbers. The best example of the later would be All-Ireland Hurling semi finals but music festivals and concerts as well as other sporting events have been the same at times.

DUB

there are regularly plenty of empty seats at friendlies, unless it is a 'big' team

i agree with the fair weather 'event' people, and i am sure the novelty value of an open croke park would attract more people then they would usually pull in, some of them would be stepping inside the stadium for the first time no doubt!

magpie

Will the Irish Cricket Team be able to play at Croke Park?

DUB

nah, its not round enough and they'd have to feck up the middle of the pitch, besides their 12 fans can fit in any round field

magpie

Shame, I would have liked to have seen people drinking Pimms and eating cucumber sandwiches as the furious, red-faced chuckie GAA members looked on in horror

Trojan

Hehe, cheers for that image magpie

... technically the ICC does not specific min or max dimensions for cricket grounds, so Croke Park could host a Test

And back to soccer and rugby:

IRFU/FAI joint statement wrote:

Both organisations are conscious of the negative impact evident in stadia around the world where soccer and rugby are played on a pitch far removed from spectators - normally as a result of surrounding athletics track. GAA pitch dimensions are approximately 150m x 90m those of soccer and rugby are 100m x 70m. This would leave spectators at rugby and soccer matches a minimum of 15m from the pitch side and 25m from the goal line.

This was in support of the proposed Bertie Bowl.

DUB

magpie wrote:

Shame, I would have liked to have seen people drinking Pimms and eating cucumber sandwiches as the furious, red-faced chuckie GAA members looked on in horror

You can see them on the premium level already

Nice clichey, before opening Croke Park we'd have to put up signs asking for 'fans' not to boo during other countries national anthems and put extra bolts on the seats so the soccer fans dont throw them at each other or knick them :rolleyes:

Big Ears

DUB wrote:

With all the asbestos in lansdowne the building is going to take a good bit longer then first thought, the work is supposed to start in 05 and end in 08?

Someone else said above 75,000 fans the capacity of croke park will be 82,000 very shortly.

You all talk about the GAA being money grabbing, why cant the FAI just bite the bullet and play in Tolka or Dalymount during rebuilding? Are they afraid of loosing a bit of money in the short term? Also the new ticket prices for the Ireland soccer Interntaionals are a disgrace, 50 bills for a lower west stand ticket for a meaningless friendly and 60 bills for a competitive match, including against the mighty Cyprus! Only the all Ireland final is anything like that expensive, who is ripping their supporters off?

I think il just clear a few things up . Hill 16 cannot be used for qualifying matches in soccer and therefore the capacity is somewhere around the 75,000 not 82,000 . Tolka park could never hold an internationel as only about 6,000 of its 10,000 capacity is seating , therefore only 6,000 could be used , and the floodlights are not up to UEFA standard . Dalymount park holds 13,000 but only 10,000 of so is seated , im not sure what standard the floodlights are . Would you honestly expect the national team to play in front of 10,000 with a hole end of a stadium empty ? .The FAI needs to charge more money for games as it is renting and has more staff to pay tha the GAA .The Asbestos is only meant to cause a minor delay and is not going to change the completion date too far from what was expected .Although 2005-2008 is correct , 3 years to build a stadium isn't great but , including its demolition it isn't too bad for a building in this country .When you question are the FAI afraid of losing a bit of money in the short term , they would lose Millions and would go bankrupt , probably forcing a new association to be formed .(maybe not a bad thing the way the current one is being run)

Lastly im commenting on something you said in a another post , and beleive it or not GAA , rugby and soccer don't compete with each other anymore , there schedules suit around each other (for most of the year) , and the vast majority of people I know (Im a youth) who play rugby or soccer or both also play GAA .

I guess that was more than a few things .

Imposter

Big Ears wrote:

Lastly im commenting on something you said in a another post , and beleive it or not GAA , rugby and soccer don't compete with each other anymore , there schedules suit around each other (for most of the year) , and the vast majority of people I know (Im a youth) who play rugby or soccer or both also play GAA .

The bit about not competing is true of the more high profile games but it doesn't hold true for clubs. For about 3 months of the year, club soccer (I'm talking local leagues here) play pretty much every weekend and GAA matches are also fixed for the weekend. Then again, I suppose anyone that plays 2 or more sports realises that it'll probably involve a balancing act between them.

DUB

thanks for the figures Big Ears, that rules tolka park out i suppose.

why not play in front of 10,000 for three years. Cant temporary seats be put in the terraces? Floodlights if they arent up to scratch can easily enough be upgraded, afterall there are none in Corke Park. The FAI could always borrow money to get by in the short term on the back of the increased capacity lansdowne road will have.

If the GAA can borrow the cost of the redevelopment of croke park then between the government paying a bigger share in lansdowne and the cost being split between the IRFU and FAI they wont be borrowing that much for the rebuilding anyway, so surely they could survive for three years with a 1/3rd capacity.

Another question why can't Lansdowne be developed in stages like Croke Park was? Could bucket seats be fitted to the Hill for soccer matches?

Three years is fine to build a stadium, I've heard different people say different stories about clearing up that much asbestos. I'm not 100% sure what the delay would be, if any, but i've heard conflicting theories.

You may not think they are competing, they may not be hostile toward each other any more but they are in competition for players, at some point you'll probably decide to play one or the other more. whatever about football, rugby and soccer being somewhat compatable, Hurling is a slightly different matter.

Mighty_Mouse

Ah yes! The misguided Manchester United (€60)soccer shirt wearing Irish man sitting in the pub swearing at the GAA for being a "grad all association"!!!

The GAA who instills a wealth of family, parish, county, country pride in kids across the country for free. Yes those bastards that let kids into matches for very little at any half chance and whose members dedicate hundreds of hours a year for free.

Then what happens? The FAI after years of mis-management fuc.k up their organisation .......................lets blame those GAA buggers!

Trojan

In my experience the GAA haven't let kids into matches for free in decades.

cournioni

Trojan wrote:

In my experience the GAA haven't let kids into matches for free in decades.

When I was under 16, I got into all of my counties matches for free. And so did all of my friends. I am only 19.

Mighty Mouse wrote:

Ah yes! The misguided Manchester United (€60)soccer shirt wearing Irish man sitting in the pub swearing at the GAA for being a "grad all association"!!!

Mine was only €42...

Trojan

Like I said - my experience. At least 16 years ago, if not more, and on at least one occasion, if not more, the GAA did not let kids in for free. Hope the qualification satisfies all

cournioni

Hmm... Can't really understand that. Unless it was down to the Ulster Council letting the kids in for free...