IV Medals

MicS

Yes, trig, those people need motivation, but don't we all?

Of 25 male advanced archers at last IV, there were 8 people who broke 500 in competition, 4 of them won some IV before. Then add there madrab, and aryzel (he'll break 500 sooner or later), and Cuthberts. These people have some chance of winning IV in near future.

For the rest, winning IV will mean improving their PB by a considerable margin. So another division is for them. Winning Div2 still requires some effort but it is possible. We do not want to give medals just for sake of giving them, but make so that everyone has a chance of winning something (provided some effort or luck).

trig

Well I can only speak for what motivates me personally, I won't pretend to know what drives anybody else. For me, breaking 500 is an important goal. DIT winning is an important goal and if I can shoot well and be a part of that, I'll consider it a good day. There are some people who consistently shoot scores close to me (like yourself MicS) who I like to finish ahead of but its mainly about reaching 500 and DIT winning at the moment. If that won me some kind of individual medal, well that's nice but its not what drives me to (try to) shoot better.

I think that this proposed extra category is only going to benefit a small percentage of IV archers - probably those who shoot between 460 and 500 on a reasonably regular basis and that's why I'm against it. Don't forget MicS that there'll be 11 new advanced archers (hopefully) in Maynooth and its likely that none of them will be shooting 480s this year. And we can expect a further 13 to graduate to advanced during the year if last year is anything to go by. And thats on top of the 14 or so non 500 shooters in DCU

If we create an advanced I category for (say) sub 480 shooters, the sub 420 archers would have every right to come along and say 'we want a sub 400 advanced III category' and then the sub 350 archers would want a advanced IV category and where can a line be drawn fairly without giving everyone a medal? For alot of these people, winning advanced II will mean improving their PB by a considerable margin.
Now obviously we're not about to do that, but I'm sure you can see that to the guys at the bottom of the pile it looks like we're just creating categories to give ourselves a few trophies.

Or maybe I'm being too melodramatic?

I'd like to hear more from people who don't have as much of a vested interest in the decision tbh.

Bruce Arch

trig wrote:

I'd like to hear more from people who don't have as much of a vested interest in the decision tbh.

Quite frankly, I find it very offending of you to more or less directly accuse in general the ones (in particular some personally) adding their thoughts to the current discussion of just doing so in order to increase their chance of getting some kind of medal.
As I cannot and don't want to speak for anyone else in this matter but for me I feel the need to set some things straight, just for the record.
My goal in archery is not winning medals. A low score achieved after a consitent shooting with narrow groups and the groups pretty much all in the same place is much more satisfying to me than a high score with the arrows spread all over the target face. Also getting a team medal for a score just above 400 is not as much worth to me as having a better score without being on the team. And the IVs I mainly see as a chance to meet some other archers and have a good time.

If one decides to make sub-categories, pretty much any borderscore can be argued for and against. There also always will be some kind of injustice. For example, in the last IV: Stephan scored 401, Conal 388. Stephan is now advanced, guess how has a better chance to win a medal at the next IV. Or someone doing archery for already a couple of years but not having competed at an IV yet, guess how this ones chances are compared to someone who began a couple of weeks ago. Or Stephan again: with 401 and if shooting for DIT he would have won a team medal.

As I mentioned before I get the feeling it's too much thinking about a too sophisticated system. Maybe introducing a one-time award (like the pin for beginners breaking 400) for different levels (400, 450, 500 or whatever) would be a fairly simple solution if the need is felt to have more smaller goals to reach for.

I personally don't think your (I am solely talking about trig here) contributions to this whole discussion are actually constructive. Just mocking about what others said, stiffly insisting on your point of view, but not adding own suggestion will not be an asset to this discussion in my opinion.
I feel it's not fruitful to proceed adding my thoughts to this topic and will therefore not be contributing anymore.

MicS

Let's just make a vote of club captains/representatives at the next IV to decide if there would be other divisions/categories and what'd be the thresholds.

IMHO, to summarize it: 1. at the moment, there are 7 people eligible to shoot in the league who won the best male/female award before. 2. few more people could do (hope to do) in near future. 3. that's one of reasons why new league ranking system was introduced this year to give everybody else measure of progress or standing.

Other thing is psychological limits: 500 seem to be important one, reaching it takes 1-3 years, but after it people reasonably start hoping on winning IV. Again, IMHO, 450 is quite reachable by someone seriously taking effort to do it within few months (in our club, we now have an example that it is possible to do in less than 2 months).

I understand that circumstances are different for everyone (study, exams, work, etc.), conditions of training are different in clubs. I do not want to offend anyone, but I sincerely believe that archery is such a sport where anyone can become good enough for international level competitions, unless there are serious disabilities preventing it. What it takes is proper attitude/ambitions, positive thinking, serious efforts, some coaching and a lot of time

And awards ... medals, trophies, badges, pins are nice, of course. They may increase motivation. You could put pins to your quiver display trophies at home and so on. But I prefer approach of eastern martial arts that more important is self-improvement.

Yeah, this discussion is becoming long and too serious.

trig

First of all let me clarify a few points here. I thought I had worded my last post in such a way as not to cause offence but obviously I'm wrong so I apologise for any offence caused, none was intended.

Originally Posted by trig
I'd like to hear more from people who don't have as much of a vested interest in the decision tbh

What I ment here was that you leave yourself open to criticism if we do make an extra category and its the guys who win it who were the big impetus behind it. If you get consensus from people like Ewan and Sinead or Maire and perhaps people from the other end of the scale, it gives you a foundation upon which to argue. Its just covering your own ass. I wasn't trying to imply that Bruce Arch or indeed anyone else is trying to give themselves a medal, I was simply trying to provide some constructive criticism.

Originally Posted by Bruce Arch
I personally don't think your (I am solely talking about trig here) contributions to this whole discussion are actually constructive

I think thats a bit unfair! I made some valid points about why I don't agree with creating the advanced II category as described by others. And on that note...

Originally Posted by Bruce Arch
Maybe introducing a one-time award (like the pin for beginners breaking 400) for different levels

... I actually put forwardthe idea that you're referring to here. Now thats constructive is it not????

Originally Posted by Bruce Arch
Just mocking about what others said

I don't like having to take other peoples messages apart, but I never mocked anyone (on this thread at least!). I think thats being unfair. And I never insisted on my point of view either, I simply put it forward as you did. Also, I did put forward my own suggestion - I suggested that pins should be given out for reaching a certain score instead of creating new categories. The reason I didn't propose anything else is that I think the current system is fundamentally sound and I apologise if I was unclear about that.

I may have made a few comments about what mhairesa said and her scores last year, but she and I are friends and in our own strange and twisted way thats how we communicate - by taking the piss out of each other! I can see how they might look like sniping, especially the 'alcohol pehaps!!!' part but I know full well she was out on the piss the night before she shot that. Plus I know full well she's a very good archer.

Please, by all means criticise my arguments, but your criticism of me personally is both unfounded and unfair.

Reku

Personally I don't see a need for separate catagories beyond beginner, you're either shooting for the sake of shooting and just interested in improving yourself and setting a new PB or you're just in it for glory and regardless of what you do eventually someone better will come along or no-one will care about how well you do in a IV. If you enter yourself into a catagory just to win a shiny piece of metal then you should really re-evaluate why you're even doing archery, so why do we even need further divisions, surely by the time someone breaks into the advanced catagory they've been at it long enough to have developed a love of archery, if they're just in it for medals is it really a big loss if they get fed up being unable to win medals at advanced and sod off? The whole point of the IVs I thought was a fun kind of competition, not concerning yourself so much with how you do relative to other but just relative to how you feel you should be able to do.

Aryzel

Altservices have 3 little pins, all go for 0.31 in packs for 100, 0.49 in packs of 10, and 0.61 individually, so they are cheap.


Is awarded when beginners shoot 400 on 60cm target. (or if people skip the beginners section, when they shoot 300 on 40cm targets)


I suggest, using this as an award for archers who get 400 on the 40cm target


And this as an award for archers who get 450 on the 40cm target.

Despite what some say, both are difficult targets for many people. It took me 2.5 years to get 400 on 40cm target, and another 2 to break 450 at an IV, which i only did at DCU.

As for an award for 500, there definitely should be, and there is, when you get 500 at a register FITA 18 IAAA shoot you get an offical FITA Target Award, also one for get ones for 525, 550, and so on. I think awards for 400 and 450 would give people achievable stepping stones (its a long way to 500) and when they reach the level that they are aiming for the 500, we should be trying to get them into mainstream competitions.

If people approve i can have the pins by the maynooth intervarsity.

mhairesa

I like the arrow head one but personally I dont think the eagle one. Its a good idea tho and if IV's register for FITA shoots(not sure if the club has to be affiliated or not) then the +500 people can claim their target awards and everyone is happy!!!

trig

I have to agree with farohar to a large degree, but I do accept that there are people out there who need something concrete to aim for or they just stagnate.

Sounds pretty good to me Aryzel. There might be difficulty making an IV a recognised FITA shoot because we are limiting participation to college archers. I'm not sure of the regulations tbh. There may be a cost element as well.

One other thing, the womens pin standard is lower for FITA. The womens first pin is given out for breaking 475 while the mens is for breaking 500. That doesn't mean that we have to do the same or anything, thought it was worth mentioning though. We could always make the womens first pin 375, the 2nd 425 and then the FITA pins kick in.....

Aryzel

hmm, actually checked the FITA rule book, i couldn't remember what award came after 500, (525 it turns out) but it says its for both male and female (also recurve and compound are the same also). In any case i think its easier to just keep level at 400 and 450 for everyone.

If there suggestions for alternatice pins, the ones on quicks aren't great, i'd still go the eagle, it looks pretty cool when you have it.

MicS

Checked the rule book as well. But there was some confusion with awards Tony was giving out in Cork. He was saying levels are 500, 520, 540, 560 for men. Also starting from 475 for women, don't remember what are other values. Anyway, they are different from the current FITA rulebook (500, 525, 550, ...). Also Maire said she had to return her award, cause she already had FITA star for that level (though the rule book says there are FITA Stars for outdoor and FITA Target awards for indoor target archery).

Maybe this confusion was resolved at Dublin Archers FITA or will be in Kilkenny this weekend.

mr potato head

Another problem arose with the pins/badges, the competition has to be registered with the IAAA at least 30 days before the shoot to make the scores elegible for a pin (an official score)
i'll look into whether an IV can be registered!

On the topic of breaking the categories, i do not think it is a good idea. It makes for higher costs for the IVs more arguments, paper work, and needless complication of the system.
I may be bias on the subject being capable of shooting 500+, but there are plenty of archers who can get 500 and higher this year and i am glad there are more this year.
This rising level of scores can only be good for our sport and adding classes midway through the ranks wont help an archer, they will only lower the targets they hope to achive and some may settle for these rather than acheiving they're potential.

mr potato head

i do think awarding archers for reaching certain scores is a good idea eg 400 450 500 etc. but do this without a separation of categories.

i think this is a subject for disscution at the maynooth IV, i have suggested a meeting open to all to sort out the Assocation thing and i think that this would be the best time for "constructive debate" on any topics people feel need to be sorted out from "awards" to shoot format.

i know this meeting could take an hour or more (probably the latter) to run but the items i have mentioned should be resolved sooner rather than later in a place where all archers can contribute.

we now have a way of bringing our concerns, suggestions and questions to the IAAA so we should use it.

halenger

mr potato head wrote:

i do think awarding archers for reaching certain scores is a good idea eg 400 450 500 etc. but do this without a separation of categories.

God you people talk a lot... But anyhow. Yeah I've gotta agree this is a better idea. I know I started all this but awards for different levels is a good idea. Much easier to handle also.

trig

We're ordering gear from altservices this week so if you want badges ordered with our stuff it'll save on postage. If MicS or Bruce Arch still want to have a meeting at NUIM IV about it thats no problem either.

I stress, I'm not trying to put pressure on anyone, nor am I insisting that we order them this week. I'm simply suggesting that if everone agrees, I can get free postage for them.

I need to know by wednesday at the latest if you want the badges ordered.

Aryzel

i've stuff on order from altservices atm, so was planning to add them to my order, also i get 5% off with the ABC membership. its easier for me since i presume i'll be working up a list of people/ numbers we'll need for the medals.

I think everyone is good with the idea of the badges for scores of 400 and 450 on the 40cm targets, so i'll go ahead with that then, unless there are any objections i'll work the numbers tonight and add the badges to my order tomorrow.

Aryzel

incidently, there have been 111 advanced archers, of which 44 people have broken 400 on the 40cm targets in the past 3 years (plus DCU IV). and 24 of them have also broken 450. Here's the university breakdown, interesting in a way, shows the breath of the team. (most advanced first)

University (#Adv #400+ #450+)

---

UCD (27 - 10 - 4 )
UL (18 - 6 - 4)
GMIT (14 - 6 - 3)
DCU (12 - 7 - 4)
Maynooth (12 - 3 - 1)
DIT (10 - 5 - 5)
NUIG (9 - 1 - 0)
Carlow (8 - 5 - 2)
Cork (1 - 1 - 1)
Athlone (0 - 0 - 0)

---

TOTAL (111 - 44 - 24)

mhairesa

are the dit people the same? ie whoever broke 400 also broke 450? cause thats consistancy!!! its good to see that just over half of the overall number broke the two, hopefully most of the 450ers will break 500 this year!!!

Aryzel

ya, ciaran, keith, sinead, noel and john all have broken 400 and 450, its actually a bad thing though, it means when they start losing them, their team score is going to drop like a rock, unless they get excellent archers to replace them.


So far only 40% of advanced archers break 400, and only about half of those go on to break 450. So i think the awards for getting 400 and 450 will give advanced archers an incintive to try harder.

mhairesa

Aryzel wrote:

ya, ciaran, keith, sinead, noel and john all have broken 400 and 450, its actually a bad thing though, it means when they start losing them, their team score is going to drop like a rock

yeah but that also means the rest of us have a chance!! but i dont know where DCU are gonna get 600 odd points!!! maybe some ppl from korea will come over on exchange!!!:D

Aryzel

also on getting these medals, i'll get 100 of each, its much cheap that way and will supply the league for few years and cover all past winners. So can i get €10 off each club, exluding athlone and cork. It can fall under the money each club gives each year for the end of year prizes normally, but i'd like to get my money back at maynooth iv if possible.

trig

Don't worry Aryzel, there'll be a few of us around for a year or two. We have some good lads coming through too. Rumours of our demise have been greatly exaggerated.
Mind you, we'd have a lot more if DIT bureaucracy could get anything done.... like let us train at 18m.... or give us more then 1 hour training time a week.

Thanks for the encouragement mhairesa. I'll break it don't worry, it might kill me, but i'll break it.

Btw Aryzel, I'll have the €10 for you in Maynooth, no problem.

baggins

trig wrote:

We have some good lads coming through too.

Yeah, like me! You all fail to realise that i'm actually going to take over the world, i just think the IVs are a good place to start..

has all the sniping settled down now? i miss a week, and come back to a sh1tstorm the likes of which i thought only i could cause, and this one was actually about archery, and not solely me calling podge crap (reference to past only)
Some of you people (you know who you are) should sit back and read some of the crap you posted in this thread, because some of it is really petty, i'm not saying this as an insult to anyone, but take insult if you will (and i'm sure someone will)

halenger

Aryzel wrote:

Athlone (1 - 0 - 0)

Who is the one? I don't see anyone other than Conal having shot for Athlone and he's a beginner.

halenger

baggins wrote:

not solely me calling podge crap (reference to past only)

Ah it's not that bad. Don't worry about it. It's just really hard to arrange things and discuss things properly over this. It'd have been grand in person. After the first few punches everyone would've agreed.

Aryzel

athlone details fixed, it was a long day, between here and ucd i posted several refill pages of stuff yesterday, be amazed there weren't more mistakes

halenger

Yeah.... I'm sure there's loads more. My score of 580 *coughs* seems to be missing.

:P

Aryzel

updated advanced archers list to show the awards each person has earned. let me know if you see any mistakes. ucd website under REsults - Intervarsities

www.ucd.ie/archery

halenger

I think Maire broke 450 once or twice. :P

Nice one... Don't you've anything better to be doing though?! (Not that I/we don't appreciate it)

Blind man

so i'm an up an coming archer eh trig, cool. if ya wanted ta right but this is just a theory like but well like you could say like that i would have a position of responsibility in the club next year and then the other clubs being lulled into a sense of non stress would be relaxed in their attempts at beating us in the rest of the IV competitions this year in the knowledge that Dit under a less competent and strident form of socially accepted leadership would prove an easier foe and easier to defeat. but of course this ain't goin to happen because i can't see any sane members of our club (pretty rare actually) or the not so socially accepted even, allowing me that sort of power without a jolly good thrashing at least. but if you wanted to excercise this theory then you have my permission to use my name and body in all forms of slander for the good of the club.

yours Muffin takin one for the team!