IV Medals

Renegade_Archer

How we going to work this? I found the system in DCU to be a bit scabby - just one trophy for best advanced - you could have come up with best male advanced / best female advanced / best male beginner / best female beginner IMHO... anyone else have any opinions? Not really fair on the women to be competing against the lads for trophies(or given Sineads and Maires scores, its not fair on the lads to be competing against the women for trophies )


Opinions?



Regards


Ewan

halenger

I'll take the blame for that. Probably forgot to mention it when explaining various things.

Aryzel

Maynooth will have:
Best Male
Best Female
Best Beginner
Best Barebow
1st, 2nd, 3rd: Teams

Hmm, acutally might do the best male and female, advanced and beginner, i'll think about it, any suggestions welcome

Bruce Arch

I think, if you go for best male/female for advanced and beginners, it wouldn't be fair not to do the same for barebow. Having said that there are probably not many people in the barebow category anyhow, so having two trophies might not make that much sense.
I think it's okay to have only one trophy for beginners, but don't ask me why (probably 'cause I am kind of used to it). But if it ain't getting too expensive getting trophies for best female/male in all three categories, it might not hurt to go for it.
Especially for the beginners it's a bit unjust anyway. All the really good beginners (the ones above 400) will be after this IV advanced anyway, therefore competing in another category, whereas someone skipping the first IV(s), but having started shooting as early as the others has a much higher chance of winning best male/female beginner when he/she competes in the second or third IV for the first time als all the other good beginners will be advanced already. But I don't see how you could avoid that, and actually I don't think it's a big problem.

Reku

As I understand it the money was pretty tight so if you really wanted more prizes it would have been a case of choosing between : more trophies & no sambos or paying more to enter. Personally I think that €10 entry for an IV is ok but how does everyone else feel about it?

Aryzel

medals cost less than a €5 each so cost on that end isn't much.
€7 for intervarsities should be plenty. we made €140 profit on our competition last year even after spending €250 on food for ye all.

€7 . (62-5) = 400

food = ~100
medals = ~100
target faces = ~30
money for other extra expenses = ~170

so i can't see how anyone isn't doing fine at €7 per person

Aryzel

i think we'll just have:

Teams Prizes
Best Male Adv
Best Female Adv
Best Male Beg
Best Female Beg
Best Barebow

Although i'm two minds about the adv ones. Sinead and Máire do ye want to compete against the guys or not? I don't like making too many categories, like they have at the iaaa shoots, it makes the medals worthless.

Renegade_Archer

I agree with the above list. I think we should keep both Male & Female advanced. Were not competing against the girls in the league, so why should we compete against them for medals?



Regards


Ewan

Bruce Arch

It's surely true, too many medals would make them kind of worthless. I think Aryzel's categories are fine. Maybe, if there is some money left one could go for little trophies instead of medals, it's just so much nicer in my opinion.

Reku

Aryzel wrote:

medals cost less than a €5 each so cost on that end isn't much.
€7 for intervarsities should be plenty. we made €140 profit on our competition last year even after spending €250 on food for ye all.

€7 . (62-5) = 400

food = ~100
medals = ~100
target faces = ~30
money for other extra expenses = ~170

so i can't see how anyone isn't doing fine at €7 per person

Booking one hall in DCU is far from cheap so booking the whole three for the whole day was undoubtedly rather costly, could see it being €200+ alright.

Aryzel

ahh, sorry didn't realise ye had to pay to use the hall, thats a bitch. most colleges allow clubs to use hall for free for competitions

mhairesa

Aryzel wrote:

Sinead and Máire do ye want to compete against the guys or not?

I dont mind shootin against the lads but dont forget that sinéad and I aren't the only girls in the advanced. Just 'cause we are at the same standard(or better in some cases!!! ) than the lads are doesnt mean any of the other girls are. I dont think many of them will bridge the gap and that makes it unfair on them. These are the only archery comps alot of them will shoot at and closing the door for them to earn a medal doesnt seem right. But thats just my opinion!!

Aryzel

once either you or sinead are at the competition they are already out of the running for a medal no matter what

mhairesa

I suppose but now they can come 3rd or 4th but if we're all in together they'll be much further down the list. And Sinéad and I wont be in college forever when we're gone what'll hapen then? you cant just change it back to the lads being seperate to the ladies

Aryzel

we're in charge, we change the rules as much as we want :P

anyways, maynooth will have Best Male and Best Female for both the Adv and Beg categories. Only one bestbow prize, as there isn't too many of them atm.

Can each college, send me a rough list of how many adv and beginner archers they would like to bring. Also trains from dublin to maynooth will be operating on the weekend of the competition.

halenger

mhairesa wrote:

I suppose but now they can come 3rd or 4th but if we're all in together they'll be much further down the list. And Sinéad and I wont be in college forever when we're gone what'll hapen then? you cant just change it back to the lads being seperate to the ladies

I guess it could always be offered as a choice to the ladies who were of the ability? As in yourself and Sinead, for example, could choose to compete with the lads. Not a forced thing but a choice.

The other way I see it though would be perhaps some of the ladies wouldn't work as hard at it if they didn't have to compete with ye?


Just on another note something I was thinking the other day. More categories in Advanced. Not necessarily for medals, though it would be nice. Something like a sub-500 category. Like the Sub-1000 in FITA. I see 500 as quite a hefty target in competition. I don't have my sights set on winning ever. My sights are set on getting to 500. It's my current goal. Though I'll have to start breaking 400 again. Anyhow. Just a thought.

Aryzel

Over 400, and below 400 would be a better split of the advanced section. i suppose its worth thinking about

Bruce Arch

Aryzel wrote:

Only one bestbow prize, as there isn't too many of them atm.

:eek: 'Bestbow' is this a new category, what are the criteria (colour and look of the bow, handling, tuning possibilities)? - Just kidding

Anyway, interesting arguments. If setting a sub-category (no matter if with or without medals, 'cause as Aryzel wrote, gushing out medals might make them worthless), how about 450? At the IV 'only' 11 were below 400, 18 above. Setting the sub-category at 500 might be too high as only 7 (of 22) had a score that high. With the dividing line at 450 there would have been 14 below and 15 above. [To add some math: the mean was 428, the median 451]
But there are good reasons for 400 as well as 500 as well as anything between. I personally would suggest 450 or 480 as this means you have to have an average of 7.5 or 8 and that's fairly good shooting, I'd say (but this says someone who is still quite a bit away from either 480 or 450).

mhairesa

Sinéad and I were talking and as far as we were concerned the prize was for highest overall score not best advanced. cause if ya think about it if a beginner shoots really well and gets a 540 oh something like that they should get both best beginner and best overall score.The leagus isnt for best adcanced its for best overall so shouldnt the medals be the same?Good idea about splitting the advanced but doesnt that bring us back to the original point for this thread.. medals and the fact that some clubs can only afford the bare minimum... more categories=more medals!!

toxof

How about prizes other than medals. I know you (mhairesa) were pretty chuffed to get a shiny badge to put on your quiver. Each college could get small badges/pins made up or something...

Blackheath give out teddies, chocolates & last January Dun Laoire gave crystal.

I know most of the colleges dont have great amounts of money to blow on prizes but its nice to get something different.

Bruce Arch

I think that's a good suggestion. Maybe 'even just' some printed paper (certificate like). You just have to do a decent layout once and then colour-print. And you could even put in the name (if there is someone around with a decent handwriting).
This might sound a bit crappy, but actually that is all you get at most smaller sports competitions and it's something you can keep, so it's not gone after you munched it (ah, well, I was trying to draw an analogy to the chocolate, but it seems like the paper might be gone too when you munch it).

halenger

I agree. That sounds like a good idea alright. Badges are nice. Always wondered what those mini compounds were like. :P

Maybe something at the end of the year for them though or something. Though on that point. A box of chocolates isn't the cheapest thing these days either!

But anyhow. Yeah 480 or 450 might be a better target. How does one run it though? For example the year before last I was in and around 450 a few times. Last year I strugled to break 400.

This could also apply to people in the beginners category who break 400 in beginner... Not sure really if it'd be practical to be moving around the place though.

But anyhow. Another division in advanced makes a whole lotta sense. Some people don't have the time/money/whatever to get to top level and also for beginners who break 400 it gives them a lower target to aim for. Should make for some good hearty competition in mid-advanced.

trig

Time for my 2 cents everyone....

First of all, I think the 450 is too easily achieved to make it a worthwhile goal. I think that breaking 400 is something an average beginner who shoots regularly will take between 3/4 of a year and 1.5 years to achieve and an effort like that should be rewarded. To go on and get 450 takes alot less time and effort IMO. I think rewarding people who reach 500 is more worthwhile as it is something most archers need to knuckle down and really work at. While a 400+ shooter can fluke a 450 or shoot one if everything comes together, to get 500 requires more knowledge of things like form, more consistency and better mental skills. Talk to anyone who has actually broken 500 (I haven't btw) and this is pretty apparent. I know there are exceptions but I'm trying to generalise here. A badge similar to the one being given out to beginners who make it through to advanced would be nice for breaking 500. And they'd be sufficiently rare to make them coveted. I think only 10 people who shot on Saturday + Madrab would get one. That said, it’s a reward in itself, isn’t it?

Secondly, I notice that last year the Cuthbert sisters won 2 out of 5 IVs and in UL they actually finished first and second. Since the whole idea of different sections for men and women is based on inequality between the sexes, the fact that they win at all is due to their greater skill and so they should be rewarded (assuming they are best females of course) even when they don't kick male ass as well as when they do. Just because they make it look easy doesn’t make it so. If that makes any sense. In other words, I think there should be a female advanced section too.

Finally, I think it should be left up to the organisers of each event to decide what to give as prizes. It’s unfair to force clubs to shell out for medals when they can't afford to pay for them. That said, it would be nice to have standardised categories at every IV. On a personal note, I would like to see the prize as something that can't be consumed (eg not something like chocolate). Even a certificate is good if that’s all that a club can afford. Mind you, I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one of those IAAA nationals medals. They're huge! And shiny. Mmmmmm Shiny

Renegade_Archer

Ive four of those IAAA medals, three silver and one bronze... those silvers will haunt me the rest of my days...

Renegade_Archer

We could use these badges from Quicks, intended for the GNAS system, nothing stopping us using them:

http://www3.btwebworld.com/cgi-bin/listprod.cgi/bishop/?search_pattern:Badges

Bruce Arch

Trig is definitely right about each university deciding what they would like to have medals/trophies for at their IV. I took that as obvious as they have to pay for it.

For the sub-categories: I think we were talking a bit about different things here. I understood it as a real sub-category, that is basically similar to beginners and advanced just splitting advanced up in two categories. So you would have beginners (60 cm unless they score 400+), advanced I (40cm and best score so far below 450/480) and advanced II (40cm, the high-scorers). I suggested to have 450-480 as the borderline score to get more balanced groups and the beginners moving to advanced have another goal they can work for (getting into advanced II) and which is still achievable. 'Cause as trig said, 500 is really hard.

The thing about the badges sounds like a one-time thing to me. The first time you break a certain score, you get a badge. Pretty much like the newly introduced pin for the beginners moving to advanced. I think that a really good idea, haven't thought about that before. In this case I am tending to agree trig and his 500 score suggestion. Or maybe have it like this:
beginner breaking 400 -> pin (move to advanced I)
advanced breaking 450 -> 'second class' badge (move to advanced II)
advanced breaking 500 -> 'first class' badge
The badges Ewan suggested are surely nice. But I am also aware, having had a look at the price, that you can blow quite some money on that. On the other hand, you could just have all the clubs join in on the costs. This also would make sense as at some IVs many archers might get a badge and at others only a few and therefore it'd be unfare to have the host university pay for it - especially as you wouldn't know before how many you'd have to get.

Anyway, maybe that's too much thinking about a too sophisticated system.

trig

Two things here:

1> The quicks badges are pretty damn expensive £2.45 as opposed to €0.61 for the altservices badges so we wouldn't want to be giving them out all over the place if we decide to go ahead with it.

2> I disagree with setting up another category in advanced. Fair enough giving out a pin or whatever but i don't think a seperate category would work. Imagine we did have an advanced I category for best advanced archer under 450 and Bruce Arch won with a score of 446. Well, if I were Mathius Vogler, I'd pretty pissed off cos I'd have just shot a 451 (DCU IV) and gotten nothing. Not only that, but I'd have finished bottom of my category. I just don't think you'd be more deserving of a prize then Mathius.

With the beginner category the difference in face sizes makes it easier to seperate categories but picking a random number in the middle of the advanced category just seems unfair on anyone who finishes just above it. The alternative is to do what the GAA are thinking of doing with the Hurling Championship: you say at the start which you want to go into - Advanced I or Advanced II and the best man (or woman) wins. But once you win a certain number of times you have to move up. Still means more expense in prizes both during the year and at the end.

I'm not mad on the idea personally

Renegade_Archer

I know Im slightly biased from my point of view from "the top", but I dont 450 is all that hard tbh... if we made it perhaps 500 it would be more of an acceptable target... as previously mentioned getting 500@FITA18 is not an easy task, and seems to be a better boundary than 450...

even if we dont have the badges, I think having two seperate advanced catogories might be a good idea.. for the dudes down in 450 territory it must feel a bit hopeless going up guys shooting 520+.... their only real hope of a medal at the moment is in the team event..

Just my two cents tbh, in the IAAA shoots not every club has medals for every category, if a club isnt up to the expense they dont have to splash out on the medals.


As regards the individual league tables, I dont think they would need to change, as its based on score anyway.

Do people think we should just have "Best Advanced" title, or should we have a "Best Advanced II" as well? Im against it to be honest, due to the changing nature of the population i.e if someone shoots 500 in the middle of the year they graduate to Advanced I. Ideas?

MicS

But the idea is that people start shooting at some category (like under-1000, over-1000, over-1100) and continue doing it for the competition. In the case of breaking some points, s/he will move to the next category for the next (and further) competitions. We have the same for beginners even now.

That's why I think bigger threshold (like 480 or 500) is better, 'cause 450 is quite easy to shoot on a lucky day even if s/he is shooting 350-400 on average.

mhairesa

500 isnt that hard to get if people actually put their minds to it. and i can already see the "thats easy for you to say cause you've been shooting 6 years" replies to that statement but i broke the 500 barrier with a crappy wooden bow in my 2nd season doing archery... why is it so different for everyone else???

on the badge front a couple of clubs up north(seven towers i think) give out little gold silver and bronze badges for prizes. they seem to go down well.

just a thought why dont all the clubs get together at the beginning of the year and bulk buy all the medals for the season. split them up to however many shoots there'll be and u'd save money.

trig

You might have broken 500 after 2 years mhairesa, but you shot a 485 last year and 2 504s so even with 6 years experience it must be a reasonably difficult level to maintain. Mind you, you also shot a 534 so maybe its down to other factors too (alcohol perhaps!!!!).
The point remains that 500 is a good goal and any mental coach will tell you how important goal setting is.

If this whole thing is a question of giving people something to compete for, I'm still not sure it'd be entirely successful. For example I count 30 different pople last year who shot advanced and never scored over 420 and so would have never really competed in an advanced II category never mind the advanced I category. Those people won't benefit at all from these proposals and those are probably the ones in most need of the motivation.