How bad are Aerlingus? How about an eleven hour delay!

Praetorian

I was on holiday in Milan and Florence last week. I had a fantastic time until our flight on the way home. This is the letter I just sent to Aerlingus.

Regarding: EI433 Fri 29 Oct 04 11.40 am.
TICKET NUMBERS ##############

Dear Sir / Madam,

I’m writing to complain about the level of service myself and my girl friend received on this flight. According to the ticket I was emailed, the flight should have left at 11.40am, when we arrived we saw a time of 12.20 up on the board; a small delay not a big problem. When we were boarding the plane I noticed one of the wheels looked a little flat, I thought it must not be out of the ordinary as an engineer should surely have noticed if there was a problem by then. After 20 minutes or so the captain told us we could not take off as we had two punctures. Apparently it isn’t Aerlingus’s policy to carry spare tyres unlike most other airlines. To my amazement Aerlingus did not have spare tyres in Milan either!

What really annoyed me was the fact that we couldn’t find out any information whilst in Milan airport. There was no Aerlingus rep to talk to. The airport officials knew nothing; we were left completely in the dark. We had to wait near a café until approximately 3pm, and then we were told to go down to the departure gate again. We were then told that the flight would not be departing until 8pm! For our trouble we were given a voucher for a sandwich and a bottle of water. The flight was delayed again until 9pm, and we eventually got off the ground at approximately 10pm.

This cost me a lot of stress and strain. It cost me money because we had to buy overpriced airport food. Aerlingus ruined the end of my holiday.

Aerlingus should give appropriate compensation to all the passengers that were so badly affected.

I have flown with your company on countless occasions, but this ordeal will make me think twice about who I book with next time,

Yours sincerely,

###### #######

eth0_

I'm sure they have a charter of what passengers are entitled to in the event of a delay, and you agreed to this when you bought the tickets.
Aer Lingus are a 'low fares airline' now, you can't expect the same standard of service they used to have :-(

Praetorian

I've attached pictures of the punctured tyres and the new rubber many many hours later.

EvilDoctorK

Bad Luck Praetorian - sounds like an unfortunate experience

Just a minor point

Aircraft do not carry spare tyres normally (they are heavy things and in a weight critical environment it wouldnt' make much sense to carry them)
- but surely they should have been able to get one reasonably quickly at Milan... I don't know who handles the aircraft / provides maintenance for them in Milan but they should have been able to look after this reasonably quickly - 11 hours to change a wheel seems a bit excessive alright.

seamus

That sounds like a bit of a horror story alright - does anyone notice how you're almost always delayed badly coming home, whereas delayed at most 10-15 minutes going out? Maybe it's just me.

GF when she was much younger had a bad experience flying from Shannon to Florida. There was some fog on the runway, so it was decided that the plane shouldn't take off. Voices on high decided that the passengers did not need to be taken off the plane while they waited for the fog to clear. So they sat in their seats, on the tarmac, for fourteen hours. Could you imagine? You'd almost be to Florida and back in that time. She said that by the time they took off, everyone just wanted to head home.

murphaph

Was it Malpensa?
I was delayed there for ages too a few years ago. I think Malpensa has one of the worst delay records of any major airport in the world. This is clearly BS of the highest order though-no spare tyres? wtf?

Capt'n Midnight

murphaph wrote:

Was it Malpensa?
I was delayed there for ages too a few years ago. I think Malpensa has one of the worst delay records of any major airport in the world. This is clearly BS of the highest order though-no spare tyres? wtf?

One of the worst for fog anyway..

therecklessone

seamus wrote:

GF when she was much younger had a bad experience flying from Shannon to Florida. There was some fog on the runway, so it was decided that the plane shouldn't take off. Voices on high decided that the passengers did not need to be taken off the plane while they waited for the fog to clear.

I'm confused.

There's no reason why an aircraft can't take off in fog. None whatsoever. Landing is a whole different kettle of fish, but departure is not a problem.

Sounds like they fed her some bullsh*t excuse seamus.

[edit]Jebus Christ, what am I thinking of??? If it were thick enough that they couldn't see the runway there's always the possibility they wouldn't take a chance with a take off roll, but it would have to be real pea-soup[/edit]

simu

Aer Lingus' standards have dropped in recent years and I don't think their prices are much lower unless you're lucky and get an exceptional offer.

My flight from Stansted to Cork was diverted to Shannon last night causing considerable delay (after an hour long delay at London before that as well). They tried to land in Cork twice but couldn't due to fog. I'm wondering, though, why they bothered wasting time with the second landing attempt in Cork - it seems very unlikely that the weather would improve much in the space of 20 minutes or so.

seamus

therecklessone wrote:

I'm confused.

There's no reason why an aircraft can't take off in fog. None whatsoever. Landing is a whole different kettle of fish, but departure is not a problem.

Sounds like they fed her some bullsh*t excuse seamus.

[edit]Jebus Christ, what am I thinking of??? If it were thick enough that they couldn't see the runway there's always the possibility they wouldn't take a chance with a take off roll, but it would have to be real pea-soup[/edit]

From what they said, apparently it was a real pea-souper. Twas also 14-15 years ago, so maybe protocol was different then....

Dub13

Back in May I had a 24 hour delay with US Airways,we were flying out to Philadelphia when some clown parked a truck under our plane....we all get on and the plane sinks down and catches the truck,we all have to get of so they can get the truck out and see how bad the damage is.The plane was in a bad shape they could not fix it and had to fly another plane over from the US.It was a joke....it turned out some bloke (the truck driver) should not have been anywere near the plane he came over to give his mate stick as Leeds just got relegated.

Anyway the whole thing cost somebody 450,000 Euro between fixing the plane and flying another one over...also putting the whole flight up in the Airport hotel.

And guess how much I got from my Travel Insurance....I lost out on one night in a 5 start hotel and one days car rental not to mention a day of my holiday....I got 25 Euro yes 25 Euro.I am getting worked up talking about it now 6 months later.

A Dub in Glasgo

Obviously this is an unacceptable delay but I generally find Aer Lingus to be very good. They have had to corner some of the budget airline market to survive and I think they have done it very well.

My mother in law is over with us in Glasgow at the moment. Thursday - Thursday, the return flight cost 72 euro. My brother and his mate are flying over on Saturday morning for a Celtic game going back on Monday... cost 74 euro each. A huge difference in price from the time when I first came here (although Ryanair can be credited for bringing down the price).

Imposter

When I flew from Detroit to London a couple of years ago we landed no problem in fog. The fog was so thick that we couldn't even see the ground until we touched it. The captain even commented that it was an automatic landing and that he wouldn't have been able to land otherwise! That was BA though.

therecklessone

simu wrote:

They tried to land in Cork twice but couldn't due to fog. I'm wondering, though, why they bothered wasting time with the second landing attempt in Cork - it seems very unlikely that the weather would improve much in the space of 20 minutes or so.

You'd be surprised. The prime concern for EI would have been to get the plane on the ground in Cork, for two reasons. Firstly, it costs them to bus everyone from Shannon to Cork, and secondly they probably need the plane at Cork for an outbound flight. Completely messes up their schedule.

Now for the science bit...

Approachs in fog are dependant on a number of factors.

1. Category of Instrument Landing System (ILS)
2. Onboard equipment for low visibilty landings
3. Pilot's rating (training he/she will have received for low-viz ops.

Now, once low-viz ops are implemented, the visibility will be measured by an IRVR (intrument runway visual range) which gives a series of values for points on the runway. Cork is Cat II, which requires a minimum RVR value of 450m (IIRC). However, the a/c itself may not be Cat II equipped, and even if it is the pilot may not be rated for a Cat II landing. Confused yet?

Its Aer Lingus, so highly unlikely they aren't Cat III equipped (min RVR=200m).

Now, as one a/c departs it tends to have a impact on the RVR readings. Effectively, the engine blast blows the fog off the runway, allowing an approach to be made. Fog also moves, and sometimes you'll find a gap in the murk to allow an attempted landing.

So in summation, 20 mins can make a huge difference. Hope that clears it up slightly.

therecklessone

Imposter wrote:

When I flew from Detroit to London a couple of years ago we landed no problem in fog. The fog was so thick that we couldn't even see the ground until we touched it. The captain even commented that it was an automatic landing and that he wouldn't have been able to land otherwise! That was BA though.

Heathrow, right?

Heathrow is a Cat IIIc airport. You can autoland and auto-taxi to your stand in solid fog. Its the future methinks.

therecklessone

seamus wrote:

From what they said, apparently it was a real pea-souper. Twas also 14-15 years ago, so maybe protocol was different then....

Ah, makes more sense now.

More modern times have brought huge improvements in a/c capabilities reference mucky weather.

I'm led to believe the reluctance to depart would be to do with ability to respond in the event of an engine failure while in the take off roll and also returning to the field if a serious problem occured post-take off. No point in departing if you can't land in sh*te weather and only have the one working engine... :eek:

Praetorian

Aerlingus had to fly the new tyres and a new pilot / co-pilot in on the next inbound flight from Dublin. We were told by the Aerlingus rep in Milan at 7pm that the other airlines do carry spare tyres. Maybe he was mistaken, or maybe he meant that they should have had the tyres in a shed somewhere in Milan airport.

If I don't get compensated I'll never fly with them again. Just as a matter of interest, I'm in touch with roughly 100 of the people from that flight (we were very bored waiting in that café so I took down everyone’s email addresses). Lots of people feel the same way I do.

Also, the Aerlingus rep said that there is an EU rule coming into law in February 2005 which states that airlines MUST give compensation after this kind of delay.
.

therecklessone

Praetorian wrote:

Aerlingus had to fly the new tyres and a new pilot / co-pilot in on the next inbound flight from Dublin. We were told by the Aerlingus rep in Milan at 7pm that the other airlines do carry spare tyres. Maybe he was mistaken, or maybe he meant that they should have had the tyres in a shed somewhere in Milan airport.

Tyres in a shed most likely. Problem was more than likely Aer Lingus haven't got a full maintenance contract at Malpensa, hence the delay. Thats low cost for ya...

dmeehan

therecklessone wrote:

Heathrow, right?

Heathrow is a Cat IIIc airport. You can autoland and auto-taxi to your stand in solid fog. Its the future methinks.

yeah, but you still have to run for 60mins to reach gate 90 to catch your Aer Fungus flight

therecklessone

dmeehan wrote:

yeah, but you still have to run for 60mins to reach gate 90 to catch your Aer Fungus flight

Zing!

Try Stockholm Arlanda with two feet covered in blisters. They shoved us out the boondocks in a sparkly new far away wing of their terminal. T'is pretty soul-destroying having an oldman on a stick pass you out as you hb=obble to the gate...

parsi

Dub13 wrote:

And guess how much I got from my Travel Insurance....I lost out on one night in a 5 start hotel and one days car rental not to mention a day of my holiday....I got 25 Euro yes 25 Euro.I am getting worked up talking about it now 6 months later.

Doesn't surprise me - I have a very low cost annual plan through my union and the amounts paid out for delays are very small. But then again I knew that when I signed up.

As I see it the insurance is for major things (and for satisfying the travel agent that you have it) and not for "minor" things like delays. The prob here is taht we all want cheap insurance - which leads to reductions in cover for common events such as delays, and we all want cheap flights which means that we get no refunds or any sort of compo if the flight is late/cancelled etc. Just like we could all pay more and fly with the full-fare airlines I'm sure we could all pay more and get dearer insurance.

For info - I have an annual family policy which is eur54 and includes motoring assistance. The first year we went to France we paid £80-90 for insurance for the 2 weeks.

MG

Just a bit of advice.....

I was messed around last year by AL. I complained and received no reply. I complained again and received a letter saying " so sorry but these things happen etc". I complained three times and received three "sorry but FO" letters, until they admitted that they were wrong and compensated me.

The moral of the story - don't be fobbed off. If you have a genuine complaint, keep complaining.

Imposter

therecklessone wrote:

Heathrow, right?

Heathrow is a Cat IIIc airport. You can autoland and auto-taxi to your stand in solid fog. Its the future methinks.

Yep, but this was 2001 iirc. Not exactly cutting edge to expect somewhere to have this technology now.

BuffyBot

If I don't get compensated...

With the new, improved Aer Lingus I wouldn't hold your breath..

secret_squirrel

simu wrote:

Aer Lingus' standards have dropped in recent years and I don't think their prices are much lower unless you're lucky and get an exceptional offer.

My flight from Stansted to Cork was diverted to Shannon last night causing considerable delay (after an hour long delay at London before that as well). They tried to land in Cork twice but couldn't due to fog. I'm wondering, though, why they bothered wasting time with the second landing attempt in Cork - it seems very unlikely that the weather would improve much in the space of 20 minutes or so.

You might want to mention who you were flying with last night - it certainly wasnt Aer Lingus - who havent flown to/from Stansted for years.

therecklessone wrote:

You'd be surprised. The prime concern for EI would have been to get the plane on the ground in Cork, for two reasons. Firstly, it costs them to bus everyone from Shannon to Cork, and secondly they probably need the plane at Cork for an outbound flight. Completely messes up their schedule.

Its Aer Lingus, so highly unlikely they aren't Cat III equipped (min RVR=200m)

Interesting but it wasnt Aer Lingus!
Liked the sciencey bit though!

A Dub in Glasgo

Must be Ryanair as they are the only ones to fly Cork - Stansted

sliabh

A quick check of the EU Charter of Passenger Rights seems to show that you are not entitled to compensation except where your delay is caused by overbooking.

PhoenixRising

therecklessone wrote:

Heathrow, right?

Heathrow is a Cat IIIc airport. You can autoland and auto-taxi to your stand in solid fog. Its the future methinks.

Never heard of an auto-taxi. How does that work? Do ATC use the surface movement radar and controlled/sequenced taxiway lights?

jonny68

Praetorian i know exactly where your coming from having experienced delays frequently although not really with Aer Lingus its Ryanair ive a gripe with
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=197817 i have been delayed once or twice before with Aer Lingus but only for 2 hours and at least they provided some sort of a meal voucher ,whereas Ryanair provide nothing at all barely an explanation as to why the flight was delayed,having said all that i do sympthaise with you as i have unfortunately experienced delays in the past like yourself,and have complained but dont you just know that nothing at all ever comes of it,frankly my friend you`ll be extremly lucky to receive any compensation but i do wish you the very best,no doubt they`ll give you some sort of pathetic excuse,im not even gonna bother my bollox complainingagain to Ryanair as its just a waste of time really as i know nothing will become of it...

blorg

Bad luck on that Praetorian, but I must say that I travel a lot on Aer Lingus myself (fly around once a month, probably 2/3 of that is on Aer Lingus) and I am very happy with the general way they are going.

Some of the travel is work related, but I've also taken a lot of holidays to places that I just wouldn't have with the old prices - and they are flying to a _lot_ more places direct than before. And the prices just are cheaper on average, even if you don't get the 'insane' offers - I remember not so long ago when £400 (e.g. €500) would not be considered excessive for a return flight to Spain, even more for Italy. I've gone to both countries with Aer Lingus of late for around €100 return, and to Spain with Ryanair for €50 (inc taxes). Aer Lingus' fares almost always beat Alitalia, even when they are doing special offers, and they absolutely wallop Iberia. And they are, generally, pretty much on time.

You can be unlucky and have a really nasty delay with any airline, I experienced a seven-hour one there myself coming back from Lisbon recently (although not with Aer Lingus.) I'd have to say if the choice is €500 tickets and 'decent' compensation for the very rare delay, or €100 tickets and no compensation, I'll take the latter.

elivsvonchiaing

In the last ten years have averaged about 5 flights a year. Worst experience was in Manchester with Ryan Air. 11 hours - well only 7 of which was delay. I swore I'd never fly with them again, but had flight booked for me on them (me pay nothing), so I went anyway. Restored my faith somewhat.

I will just add time is a great-healer and the cute hoor Michael O'Leary is well aware of it. It's just that Aer Lingus only just got hip to this... though in your case they may have underestimated how quick a healer it is

therecklessone

PhoenixRising wrote:

Never heard of an auto-taxi. How does that work? Do ATC use the surface movement radar and controlled/sequenced taxiway lights?

Now you ask me that I've done some checking and from what I can tell they don't have an auto-taxi system. Can't remember who told me it, but it was a work colleague recently. Sorry for the bum steer.

The autoland will take the plane as far as rollout and stop on the runway if required. There's an interesting discussion here.

As for SMR at Heathrow, here is the system employed at the airport. Very impressive, especially the ability to track a/c movements from their SSR codes. Heathrow was also the first European airports to install the more reliable (and adaptable IIRC) MLS landing system, as an upgrade on their existing ILS details here.

therecklessone

Imposter wrote:

Yep, but this was 2001 iirc. Not exactly cutting edge to expect somewhere to have this technology now.

Cost is the deciding factor I'm afraid. Navigation aids and landing systems are horrendously expensive, so most airports will install as much as they deem necessary and no more. Hence the Cat IIIa at Dublin (and only on runway 28, not on 10 or 16) and the Cat IIIc at Heathrow.

blorg

therecklessone wrote:

Cost is the deciding factor I'm afraid. Navigation aids and landing systems are horrendously expensive, so most airports will install as much as they deem necessary and no more. Hence the Cat IIIa at Dublin (and only on runway 28, not on 10 or 16) and the Cat IIIc at Heathrow.

Had a very scary experience landing in Beauvais with Ryanair. When we arrive, captain announces that due to bad fog, we can't land immediately, but, and I quote, "don't worry, we have enough fuel to stay up here for 30 minutes." 40 minutes later, people are starting to look a bit nervous; the captain comes on and says "right, we're landing now." I'm skeptical that the fog had improved - I had snagged an over-wing seat and it was literally not possible to see the end of the wing. When we got down, the runway was lined with firetrucks and ambulances (their lights may have been a help navigation-wise?). Now Beauvais is ILS Cat I - IANAP but AFAIK Cat I would require greater visibility than the length of a wing to make a landing safely?

therecklessone

blorg wrote:

Now Beauvais is ILS Cat I - IANAP but AFAIK Cat I would require greater visibility than the length of a wing to make a landing safely?

Not a judgement now, but Cat 1 requires an RVR of 550m (decision height of 200ft).

If you're really interested in some enlightenment on it, go to www.pprune.org and ask there. Be advised they don't like Ryanair though...

dowlingm

From what I understand, the additional navigation equipment required for ORK to be classed Cat III would be difficult/impossible to install given the surrounding terrain. Thus the frequent diversions to Shannon.

Usually airlines have a bit of give and take (I imagine someone else at Milan has A32x tyres given the popularity of the type) but no doubt that's gone under Willie W. I did hear of Air Canada having to fly in a tyre to St. Lucia but having just returned from there I can say that's a fairly different airport!

secret_squirrel

Ok I've been doing a bit of noseing around with a friend who works in a/c maintenance.

Firstly the person who told the passengers that Aer Lingus dont carry spare tyres whilst the rest of the industry does was just plain wrong. (see below for reason)
Secondly when dealing with a puncture the whole left or right main landing gear is replaced - not a trivial job as Im sure you can imagine. The MLG assembly consists of dozens of major parts -its one of the most complex components of an aircraft.

Of course neither of the above explains why the Italian maintenance contractor for EI didnt have a MLG in stock. Although its possible that they didnt have one for that model of A320 - that A/C is very very young.

Malpensa is also a long standing EI destination so there's less excuse than maybe a newer destination.

dowlingm wrote:

no doubt that's gone under Willie W

The maintenance dept at aerlingus is the one section where no one is even allowed to apply for the current voluntary redundancy package, its not an area targetted for cost savings.

nlgbbbblth

I have neverever been on a flight that has departed on time

I'm 32 years old and go abroad at least twice a year

sliabh

I have been on over 50 Aer Lingus flights this year. I'd say about 80% leave on time. But they are over stating journey times (like most airlines these days) so they tend to arrive on time about 90% of the time.

I have had one 4 hour delay this year. But it was caused by an impressive thunderstorm in Munich. So impressive that it gave us the worst turbulence I have felt in a long time and the plane was still on the ground! There wasn't a punter aboard that disagreed with the pilot's decision to sit tight

99Dragons

Respectfully mate... in all candor and good will... you might try comparing the experience there you folks had with Tangu PRC... or Irkutsk Russia. Unbelievable queues... inchoate drone staffers... throngs of people anesthetized by their own inertia... Truly hair raising if you have any left after a few such ordeals. Not sure what the future may hold but at least no bare wires were hanging from the fuselage or about the cabins. Once fairly recently in PRC I seriously considered a dromedary as a viable exit route...

Praetorian

Just to let you all know, as far as I know, Aerlingus haven't responded to anyone regarding EI433 Milan to Dublin. Not even a written apology.

A Dub in Glasgo

My brother and his mate were over to Glasgow for the weekend and they missed their early morning flight on Saturday (06:45) from Dublin. Aer Lingus put them on the next available flight to Scotland (11:45 to Edinburgh) at no extra charge! I arranged a taxi to take them to Glasgow in time for the football (private hire taxi - £40).

A big well done to Aer Lingus

dmeehan

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

My brother and his mate were over to Glasgow for the weekend and they missed their early morning flight on Saturday (06:45) from Dublin. Aer Lingus put them on the next available flight to Scotland (11:45 to Edinburgh) at no extra charge! I arranged a taxi to take them to Glasgow in time for the football (private hire taxi - £40).

A big well done to Aer Lingus

When I was comming back from the states recently I missed my flight from Gate 90+ in heathrow. AerFungus put me on the next available flight, also for no extra charge

David Stewart

simu wrote:

- it seems very unlikely that the weather would improve much in the space of 20 minutes or so.

You'd be surprised. I was flying to Jersey in 1992. We managed to land alright but the flight immediately behind us had to turn back.

blorg

dmeehan wrote:

When I was comming back from the states recently I missed my flight from Gate 90+ in heathrow. AerFungus put me on the next available flight, also for no extra charge

Ryanair will charge you I think €50 for the privilege if you're in that situation. (Still better than making you buy a ticket at the current price I guess; Ryanair's same-day prices are extortionate, while Aer Lingus don’t seem to increase the price at all and do it purely on occupancy levels.)

secret_squirrel

blorg wrote:

Ryanair will charge you I think €50 for the privilege if you're in that situation. (Still better than making you buy a ticket at the current price I guess; Ryanair's same-day prices are extortionate, while Aer Lingus don’t seem to increase the price at all and do it purely on occupancy levels.)

Thats correct Ryan Air have a fares management system based soley on the time until departure - the fares getting higher as the day of departure approaches.

Aer Lingus have a more sophisticated system that takes into account days until departure, current occupancy levels, occupancy levels on similar flights, historical occupancy on the route etc etc etc.

Obviously seat sales and special offers can affect the above too.

sliabh

I was on the Aer Fungus Dublin-Munich flight today, and it arrived in 40 minutes early!

Not bad for a two and a half hour trip. Mind you my German lift was caught on the hop and I had to wait anyway.