Cyber Athletes Revisited!

Dustaz

TheFanJ, Do you consider WWF to be a sport? These athletes have what you describe in spades. Since theres no competion in it it cant be a sport.
I dont consider gaming to be a sport, but you havent put forward a convincing argument against it. Shooting is a sport, its is DEFINITLY a sport, but wheres the athletic ability in pulling a trigger?
It seems that if someone doesnt play rugby, thier not a sportsman. Sorry mate, but rugby is not the be all and end all of sports. In fact, i would be of the opionon that rugby lacks a lot of the skill that other sports have and is over reliant on physical ability.
To be honest id prefer a school that played counter strike than a school that advocated the use of creatine as a lot of schools these days. Think about the fact that rugby is responsible for instilling a socially acceptable form of drug abuse before you accuse people of being insecure of thier pastimes.

SantaHoe

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dustaz:
Do you consider WWF to be a sport? These athletes have what you describe in spades.</font>

I'd consider Wrestling to be a sport of course, but WWF isn't really wrestling is it?
No more than the cast of ER are real doctors.
Maybe if WWF wasn't completely 'fixed', and the unknown guy actually had a chance of defeating the popular all-American bag of meat and steroids... then maybe, just maybe it could be a sport.
It's a TV show, and designed for ratings, which ironically - is why it's so sh!te to watch.

As for FPS-games becoming a sport?
I reckon it has a lot of sport-like qualities, but I can't see it being taken seriously as an Olympic sport for a good while to come.
Anyway, who cares if it's accepted by the masses as a 'real sport'... tourneys will still happen, games will still be a highly competitive activity.
But in five years, who knows what gaming will become...?

the fnj

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Illkillya:

you are disgusted by the fact that they can call themselves sports players, thereby coming part of the group that you have worked so hard to remain in.

</font>

Absolutely spot on. I don’t want professional computer gamers to be able to think that he is just as valid a sportsman as I am.

The point you all seem to shy from or try to justify with “well in this sport they only do this” is that athlete’s compete in sports. Sitting at a desk moving a mouse and pressing keys is not athletic.

One thing I notice about any really good sportsman is that they are generally very good at any sport they try and play. Why, because basic fundamentals carry over in every sport. Balance, co ordination and fitness are required in most sports. I know of course you will try and justify computer games as sports by comparing to things like darts and snooker. Why not pick a sport like soccer or rugby and use that to base your comparisons.

From a general health point of view nobody can honestly try and tell me that they believe that playing computer games for eight hours plus a day is healthy.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> In your ideal world, everybody would be fit </font>

Is that such a bad thing?


PS I’m a second row not a prop

Kensai

Let me be extremely arrogant and bigotted.

Rugby is for gays.
Gays are subhuman.
A "sport" for gays shouldnt be called a sport because it involves gay people.

Exchange overweight with gays and thats your whole argument.

[This message has been edited by Kensai (edited 18-08-2001).]

havok*

Tom, u might as well just set up a reply script, no matter what any1 sez u just reply with the same ****.

Please lock this thread monty, tiz doing me head in...

PHB

I suppose using reflexes and hand eye coordination is nothing to do with sport. Example Ice Hockey, as a goaly, all you do is stand in the goal having amazing reflexes and hand eye co-ordination and your set.

I use that example because possibly the best player in the world (Heaton) is off to NHL next year to be a ice hockey goaly.
I wouldn't use the CPL as a good example of gaming being a sport. But I think the amount of effort put into it is the same as a person who plays snooker for 10hrs a day. If they don't enjoy it that's their pro-ogitive if they do it doesn't make it any less of a job.

Renton

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The FANJ:
The point you all seem to shy from or try to justify with “well in this sport they only do this” is that athlete’s compete in sports. Sitting at a desk moving a mouse and pressing keys is not athletic.
</font>

Not all sports are athletic. I think plenty of examples have already been shown.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">One thing I notice about any really good sportsman is that they are generally very good at any sport they try and play. Why, because basic fundamentals carry over in every sport. Balance, co ordination and fitness are required in most sports. </font>

Those sort of things carry over to other sports of similar styles. Would being a good footballer make you more likely to be a good snooker player? I doubt it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I know of course you will try and justify computer games as sports by comparing to things like darts and snooker. Why not pick a sport like soccer or rugby and use that to base your comparisons.</font>

Because there are different types of sports, not all of them involve using extreme physical force or perfect hand-to-eye coordination.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">From a general health point of view nobody can honestly try and tell me that they believe that playing computer games for eight hours plus a day is healthy.</font>

A very large number of sports dont help your health in anyway whatosever. Sports don't have to make you healthy to be classified as a sport.

Blargh - posted by kaids under Rentons login.

[This message has been edited by Renton (edited 18-08-2001).]

Clintons Cat

one problem with classifying FPS as sports would be the enviroment in which the physical exertions (i.e rapid eye hand co ordination and rapid finger twitching) manifest themselves.The enviroment would be prone to manipulation by external influences such as those modern day sports bo***men the International Gambling Cartels.
A split second delay on a mouses responses could turn an average player into a world champion.Not to mention the dreaded scourge of the FPS mouse lint.Perhaps There is to much of an element of luck involved in FPS as they stand for them to qualify as a sport,perhaps they should be pigeonholed with Games of chance like Pontoon and Krapps.
Plaudits to Fanj for his dogged persistance of the theme.

Jak

Only read the top few posts as I'm pushed for time, but ...

People who play computer games can be classed as committed, skilled and talented.

In no sense whatsoever can they be classed as athletes. I enjoy games etc, but I would never substitute them for proper training and try to pass myself off as an athlete.

This is my opinion on it, but I would caution anyone against mentioning they are a 'Cyber athlete' down the pub ...

the fnj

Just a couple things that have come to mind recently.

Firstly where is the line drawn? I’m told Counter Strike and Quake or sports but what about other games? Is playing Fifa a sport? So who decides whats a computer game and whats a sport. If someone is the world champion Fifa player are they an athlete or is it only for elitist games like Counter Strike and Quake.

Another thing I have to question. In sport you see people push limit’s to do something. Examples would be a footballer sprinting faster than he has ever done before to get back and make that last gasp tackle. Similar scenario’s can be applied to all sports. Computer games are too controlled and environment. In every sport bizarre things happen from time to time. Like a ball seeming to do the impossible and swerve one way then the other. In a computer games the random element is still controlled by a computer so how random is it really? This is another crucial point because a computer gamer will never do the impossible because a computer won’t allow the impossible to happen. It happens in the real world, rarely but it still happens.

OConnor

You havent seen your entire Terrorist team wiped out during an ECO (economy) round while you lag,unlag and with only the default pistol , sneak round and wipe out the enemy team :P
thats making the extra "push".
Of course, that doesnt happen very often, but there are very few displays of true sportsmanship in eg. Football these days..

havok*

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The FANJ:

In sport you see people push limit’s to do something. Examples would be a footballer sprinting faster than he has ever done before to get back and make that last gasp tackle</font>

Tom, watch the Lakerman vs Fatality final in one of the last cpls (germany afiak) ,
Watch the way fat comes back, purely animal.
This is just one example.

On your last point, I think u mean Improboble rather then impossible, and it happens in game abit too (as u well know)
Granted theres not as a degree of chaos as u would get in the real world but its a good fit.



[This message has been edited by havok* (edited 20-08-2001).]

the fnj

Everything he did was completely possible and could be done again. He just played to almost perfection. I'm talking about things that are simply completely impossible that could never be done again.

Also please respond to my point about what is the line between a computer game that is a sport and one that is just a game.

havok*

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The FANJ:
I'm talking about things that are simply completely impossible that could never be done again.
</font>

er?
If its completely impossible it could'nd have possible happened in the first place. As i said b4, u mean improbable not impossible.

The "line" of weather a game is a sport or not i would place @ how it is played competivley. ie, In well organized tournaments / leagues ect.

Tbh, What you most have difined in your previous posts of what you consider sports actully falls into the catagory of Field Sports, i.e rugby, soccer ect.

You also Said b4 that ppl good @ sports are normally good @ other sports. What u really ment was there good @ similer sports, Some-one good @ rugby probobly would'nd be half bad @ football. I doubt however he'd be any use @ snooker.
I doubt Fatality would'nd be half bad @ counter strike or darts even for that matter.

In my view Any game that is played higly competivly in an orginized manner is a sport.

the fnj

So Fifa would be a sport if people played it for eight hours a day and had big tournaments in it.

Now this is where I get really confused Neil.

Soccer is a sport. Absolutely no arguments there. Fifa is a soccer computer game. Using your logic not mine could I claim to be a really talented footballer if I was the world champion Fifa player?

Pepe LeFrits

If FIFA was extremely competitive it could nearly be considered as much of a 'sport' as Q3 or CS. The main difference in games of its type is that it is nearly completely controlled by the AI, with the player only temporarily taking control of a player near the ball.

the fnj

Thats not my point. My point is if it was played as seriously as CS would it then be a sport?

Shiminay

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by havok*:
In my view Any game that is played higly competivly in an orginized manner is a sport.</font>

PLYD Neil - I think this sums it up perfectly.

I don't agree with the "Athlete" title, but categorising games played at the levels a lot of us (and you yourself Tom) do as sports is fair.

I've sat down with people who play Quake and then I show them how I play. They are usually stunned and amazed and the completly different game it is and can be - same can be said for you and I having a kick about and then watching a pro soccer match.

---

All the best!
Dav
@B^)
So Bob Hoskins was about to roll a spliff when in walks Dana with her 3 foot Bong
[honey i] violated [the kids]
When the Beefy King arrives, I shall be paying homage with Puunack The Receiver in a haze of green curry.

Xterminator

I've read the thread, and i see the different opinions, but here is mine.

Shooting (targets) is an olympic sport.

The athlete uses hand eye co-ordination to track the target, the athlete users their steady hand to pull the lever (trigger) which causes the bullet to fire.

This is repeated a set no of times, according to the rules, until there is a winner.

Does this sound familiar? It could be any game player.

FFS now synchronised swimming is an olympic sport!

I know some sports are physical, I played rugby, I boxed, I played GAA.
There is a arguement for ifferentialting between a rugby player, and a CS player, but that arguement also discredits other accepted sports.

---

"Man, you go through life, you try to be nice to people, you struggle against the urge to punch ‘em in the face, and for what?! For some pimply little puke to treat you like dirt unless you're on a team. Well I'm better than dirt ... well most kinds of dirt. I mean, not that fancy, store-bought dirt. That stuff’s loaded with nutrients. I …I can't compete with that stuff."
-Moe Szyslak

the fnj

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by havok*:
In my view Any game that is played higly competivly in an orginized manner is a sport.</font>

OK I see the point your trying to make there but as I have pointed out where does that leave a game like Fifa? If I was to play for eight hours a day and enter big tournaments and play others in games of Fifa does that make it a sport and does that make me a footballer?

I’m playing a soccer match on a computer, that’s a sport I must be a legendary footballer!

Also the point about shooting in the Olympics would only apply to FPS games making other points such as “they play for hours a day” useless in this discussion.

So is it only FPS games that can be considered sport then? If thats the case are you telling me that people who play in Red Alert competitions are less than FPS gamers?

havok*

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The FANJ:
I’m playing a soccer match on a computer, that’s a sport I must be a legendary footballer!</font>

Stupid point, If u are good @ FIFA ur a good FIFA player, not a footballer. I doubt any1 good @ CS coinsiders themselves a good "solider", just a good cs player.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The FANJ:
So is it only FPS games that can be considered sport then? If thats the case are you telling me that people who play in Red Alert competitions are less than FPS gamers?</font>

I think u missed the point Xterminator made too. He was'nd knocking non FPS games, Just using a similer realworld sport that relates to FPS gaming.
RTS games for example could be compared to chess. Tho not turn baced like chess, the main skills required to play each game @ a high level are similar.


[This message has been edited by havok* (edited 22-08-2001).]

Pepe LeFrits

It makes you a good FIFA player.

Pepe LeFrits

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The FANJ:
So is it only FPS games that can be considered sport then? If thats the case are you telling me that people who play in Red Alert competitions are less than FPS gamers?</font>

Sorry but where are you getting this from? He gave an example of how FPSs are Shooting are similar, i don't see how he is saying that RTS gamers are less than FPS gamers...

the fnj

Havok it's not a stupid point and I think you know what I'm getting at with it.

Correct me if I’m wrong (I’m not by the way) but is Fifa not a computer game that is based on the sport called soccer? So what your trying to tell me is that a computer game based on a real sport is just as valid a sport as the one it is trying to recreate.

Also your forever talking about the skill required to aim in a FPS game and the amount of time the players spend playing. You also claim that Fifa, Red Alert etc. can also be classed as sports. No correct me if I’m wrong but were exactly does aim come into either of these games? All the same there just as valid sports as quake, counter strike, rugby, soccer and so on.

Does the Fifa example given above in any way help clear up why sitting in front of a computer for eight hours playing quake can not be classed as a sport?

the fnj

OK I have a feeling that this may be the killer point in my favour.

An athlete in a sporting competition is actually doing the work involved.

Examples include a footballer is kicking the ball, a darts player is throwing the dart, a chess player (still don't agree it's a sport) is moving the chess piece.

He is making a physical movement and there is a reaction to the move made.

In a computer game all you’re doing is pushing keys and moving a mouse. You’re not actually moving anywhere . In every other sport the athlete is actually there and he is physically causing the changes that take place during the competition.

So darts may be low on the old physical side of things (still don’t agree it’s a sport either) but the competitor aims and throws the dart himself. You may have to aim a gun in a FPS game but you’re not firing it.

This would apply for every sport and every disputed sport other than computer games, which are not a sport.

Pepe LeFrits

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Also your forever talking about the skill required to aim in a FPS game and the amount of time the players spend playing. You also claim that Fifa, Red Alert etc. can also be classed as sports. No correct me if I’m wrong but were exactly does aim come into either of these games? All the same there just as valid sports as quake, counter strike, rugby, soccer and so on.</font>

Erm, since when do you have to shoot something for it to be a sport?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">OK I have a feeling that this may be the killer point in my favour.
An athlete in a sporting competition is actually doing the work involved.

Examples include a footballer is kicking the ball, a darts player is throwing the dart, a chess player (still don't agree it's a sport) is moving the chess piece.

He is making a physical movement and there is a reaction to the move made.

In a computer game all you’re doing is pushing keys and moving a mouse. You’re not actually moving anywhere . In every other sport the athlete is actually there and he is physically causing the changes that take place during the competition.

So darts may be low on the old physical side of things (still don’t agree it’s a sport either) but the competitor aims and throws the dart himself. You may have to aim a gun in a FPS game but you’re not firing it. </font>

LOL, killer point my **** . Saying that chess is a sport because a plastic or wooden piece is moved by the player a few inches on a board is idiotic. Chess has been classified as a sport because of the effects it has on a player (stress, increased adrenalin etc). The same ideas could be applied to gaming.

Compare an FPS to shooting. You aim the gun and pull trigger in shooting. You aim the crosshair and press the mouse button in an FPS. Whats the difference?

the fnj

The gun they use in the olympics is real!

-ADREN-

lo havoc.. or FANJ where can I get my hands on that cpl match demo of Lakerman vs Fatality??

thx lads.. c yas

havok*

Try my killer points, now 25% stronger !!!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The FANJ:

So darts may be low on the old physical side of things (still don’t agree it’s a sport either) .
</font>

Hmmm, to put this into context. Thats like me posting I dont think a Volswagan Polo is a car.
Fact is thats not debatable, regaurdless of what i think its a fact a polo is a car.
Regardless what u think about darts or chess tom, its a fact that there sports.
Not just my opionion.
And baced on that logic, if u cant even admit that Sports that have already been accepted as sports are in fact sports. I dont think theres any point in aguging any further about Cyber sports.

Just one other thing.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The FANJ:

Correct me if I’m wrong (I’m not by the way) but is Fifa not a computer game that is based on the sport called soccer? So what your trying to tell me is that a computer game based on a real sport is just as valid a sport as the one it is trying to recreate</font>

American Football is baced on rugby, I really dont think they'd take it well if u told them u dont think thats a sport because it recreates it.



[This message has been edited by havok* (edited 23-08-2001).]

Dustaz

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The FANJ:
Correct me if I’m wrong (I’m not by the way) but is Fifa not a computer game that is based on the sport called soccer? So what your trying to tell me is that a computer game based on a real sport is just as valid a sport as the one it is trying to recreate.
</font>

You seem to forget that rugby is based on the sport called soccer too. Does this mean rugby isnt a valid sport? (PS It was invented by cheaters )