Cyber Athletes Revisited!

the fnj · 16-08-2001 1:30pm #1

OK I’m going to try and resolve this one more time and see if we can get anywhere.

Basically the thought of people playing computer games and then calling it sport really strikes a deep nerve with me. The thought of computer games being an Olympic sport scares me. Why do I let it bother me so much? Well basically your putting someone who sits in front of a computer and plays a computer game on par with someone who’s trained their whole lives to compete in the Olympics. These guys are driven and motivated to levels most of us can never imagine. These guys quit drinking and parting so the could get up at six in the morning and go running. They put large chunks of their lives on hold so they can train harder and harder to represent the country at an Olympics. Now you show me one computer gamer whose level of dedication is that high. As far as I’m concerned playing computer games “full time” is a cop out. People like Fatality would not make it as an Olympic athlete because they don’t have the will to get out and actually work for something. Playing computer games is a very convenient way of justifying yourself as an athlete.
Now just to look at the word athlete would indicate why people who play computer games are not athletes and why it is not a sport. A proper athlete will always be athletic. This is a very crucial point because if athletes don’t compete in it, it is not a sport. Being an athlete myself I know I need none of my athlete prowess to play any FPS. I don’t need to draw on my stamina, my strength is irrelevant, my hand to eye co ordination is used but not to the extent that some of you would try to indicate. I may as well not have any legs because they are not needed at all to play an FPS game.

Compare this to what it takes to play rugby. I need to be fit, strong I need good co ordination, and I need to be smart around the pitch I need experience to know what to do in any given situation. I know some of these are required in FPS but the ones that are missing are the most crucial. I can have all the experience in the world but it counts for nothing if I don’t have the fitness and the power to get around the park and to make an impact at rucks, scrums, tackles etc.

Unfortunately everybody cannot be good at sports. None of us are born equal. Some are born smarter than others, some or born with the ability to run faster than others and so on. So not everybody is going to have the skills to take part in sport. I’m sorry but that’s life. So don’t go looking to carve your little niche in the sporting world by trying to justify computer games as a sport. I have a lot of respect for people who are very good at FPS games (except for Koopa but that’s because he take nandralone). I know full well how hard it is to be the best at these games and how much time some people spend playing them but that does not make these people athlete’s and it does not make FPS games a sport.

Pepe LeFrits · 16-08-2001 1:50pm

Originally posted by The FANJ:
Basically the thought of people playing computer games and then calling it sport really strikes a deep nerve with me. The thought of computer games being an Olympic sport scares me. Why do I let it bother me so much? Well basically your putting someone who sits in front of a computer and plays a computer game on par with someone who’s trained their whole lives to compete in the Olympics. These guys are driven and motivated to levels most of us can never imagine.

The olympics have been around a long time. They are extremely serious, professional events. The CPL etc haven't and aren't. I'm informed by Malevolence that NiP (The best CS clan in the world) spend up to 10 hours a day playing CS and practising. That seems like dedication to me, they must be pretty motivated.

As a matter of interest, do you consider Snooker a sport?

[This message has been edited by kaids (edited 16-08-2001).]

the fnj · 16-08-2001 2:19pm

Playing Counter Strike for ten hours is not hard work. People do it all the time. I've played Quake 3 for close to ten hours on many occasions it's not hard to do. The important thing is though I don't have to motivate myself to do it. This is where I think the flaw lies in FPS games being called sport. To actually get up out of bed early and go out running in the rain takes determination and drive that these self proclaimed cyber athletes could never come close to experiencing. It's more like a nine to five job than it is being a professional athlete.

Also people keep asking me if I consider certain things to be sports or not. I would lean towards saying no to snooker but it's a very, very grey area. What I am certain of is that FPS games do not deserve to be near the grey area.

Pepe LeFrits · 16-08-2001 2:25pm

Theres a big difference between playing a game for 10 hours and practising at it. Practising a game can be very, very tedious.

I don't really the see the difference between Snooker and Gaming. Both require minimum physical prowess, both require a good knowledge of the game, both require practise, and both require natural talent. I don't see what puts Gaming so far away from your 'grey area'.

Trojan · 16-08-2001 2:34pm

Originally posted by The FANJ:
Playing Counter Strike for ten hours is not hard work. People do it all the time. I've played Quake 3 for close to ten hours on many occasions it's not hard to do. The important thing is though I don't have to motivate myself to do it. This is where I think the flaw lies in FPS games being called sport. To actually get up out of bed early and go out running in the rain takes determination and drive that these self proclaimed cyber athletes could never come close to experiencing. It's more like a nine to five job than it is being a professional athlete.

Also people keep asking me if I consider certain things to be sports or not. I would lean towards saying no to snooker but it's a very, very grey area. What I am certain of is that FPS games do not deserve to be near the grey area.

I don't think it's fair to say that it's not a sport because it's enjoyable. That's a very weak argument.

Yet I agree with you, but you can justify the case better than this.

I'm not dodging here btw, I'll post my opinion from nh on Friday (give me a while to think about it!)

Al.

Sedulously eschew obfuscatory hyperverbosity and prolixity.

You really should you know.

the fnj · 16-08-2001 2:43pm

It's so far away because in gaming you need absolutely no athletic prowess what’s so ever. All you need to be able to do is move a mouse and push buttons on a keyboard. That’s it the maximum physical effort required to play an FPS game.

Now everybody agrees (as far as I’m aware) that sports must require some sort of physical exertion. Please don’t try and claim that moving a mouse and pushing keys is really that physically demanding.

I’ve always found that people trying to push computers games into the sports category always try and compare it to the bottom end sports. They always try and stretch each detail. If you’re all so sure it’s a sport compare it to something like rugby. There is absolutely no doubt in anybodies mind that rugby is a sport. So stop trying to push into the grey areas and convince me that playing CS is on the same level as rugby. I keep hearing it’s a sport so please tell me why?

the fnj · 16-08-2001 2:56pm

Originally posted by Trojan:
I don't think it's fair to say that it's not a sport because it's enjoyable. That's a very weak argument.

Sorry I explained that point badly.

What I was getting it is that when I train for rugby I don't play rugby. I go the gym, running or up traing with the coaches. The point is I do broing tasks over and over. Lifting weights, practicing picking up a static ball on the ground while running etc.

I don't like doing these tasks but I do them so when I actually take part in a match I know I'll beat my opposite man every time due to skill, power and fitness.

leeroybrown · 16-08-2001 2:57pm

I have to agree that the thought of having computer games as an Olympic sport is rediculous and that calling a gamer an Athlete is a loose use of the term, based on our current definition.

The word sport is not defined by a list of things called sports it is defined by what people think is a sport. There are loads of professional sports that have evolved from simple pub games and hobbies due to public interest.

dannyd20 · 16-08-2001 3:07pm

ok, here's my take on this.
FPS games are not a sport in the traditional sense. They are an entertainment, a pastime. Merrion-Webster define a sport as "a physical activity engaged in for pleasure" As said by FANJ "in gaming you need absolutely no athletic prowess whatsoever. All you need to be able to do is move a mouse and push buttons on a keyboard. That’s it the maximum physical effort required to play an FPS game." You cannot argue with that.

While some people may spend hours playing/practising FPS games, it doesn't mean that games should qualify as an olympic sport. AFAIK there have been world tournaments in CS and Q3 (I think there was one in Holland a while back ??)

Claiming FPS games should be an Olympic sport is ludicrous. I think world tournments are the way to go, where gamers can have their own competitions, a kind of 'Cyber Olympics' if you will

That's all folks

Pepe LeFrits · 16-08-2001 3:18pm

I've already said that Gaming requires a minimum of physical prowess, the same as Snooker (walking around a table and occasionally bending hardly counts).

Your definition is that sports must require some sort of physical exertion. I disagree with this, because i believe Snooker, for example is a sport. I don't think it can be defined so simply.

Imo Gaming will eventually become technically a 'sport' as chess is, although i doubt most people will consider it one. I guess it depends on wether you think 'exercising' your brain is as much of a reason to classify a game as sport as excerising your body is.

the fnj · 16-08-2001 3:25pm

Once again you’re trying to push it in at the bottom.

Are gamers so insecure in what they do that they need a different label to hide the harsh reality. Be proud of what you are and leave sports alone

Pepe LeFrits · 16-08-2001 3:26pm

BTW i thought i might aswell add that i don't actually think Gaming is a sport. I think gaming is closer to being a sometimes competitive... er, game

[This message has been edited by kaids (edited 16-08-2001).]

Pepe LeFrits · 16-08-2001 3:31pm

Originally posted by The FANJ:
Once again you’re trying to push it in at the bottom.

Are gamers so insecure in what they do that they need a different label to hide the harsh reality. Be proud of what you are and leave sports alone

Oh dear. I'm offering another side to an argument. If you have to call me insecure then go for it, but im not the one who is bring up old topics which have been discussed throughly, and the thought of gaming being or not being a sport doesn't strike a 'deep nerve' with me.

Btw, your smiley

that you use on every post is like, so cool and stuffs.

Enygma · 16-08-2001 3:37pm

Does it really matter if FPS games are considered sport? Personally I'd say they are. Everyone's on a level playing field (in controlled competition), yet the same people rise to the top consistently. That means there must be skill/talent. Chess is in the olympics now. That doesn't require any physical exertion, just mental ability. And it's considered a sport.

The most important thing is that FPS games can be played professionally (yes they can!). It's never going to be in the Olympics because the games change so often, but national/international leagues could definetely be set up. And when they are there'll be no point in arguing over whether it's a sport or not.

Pepe LeFrits · 16-08-2001 3:40pm

Yeah there was a big study into why Chess should be considered a sport, i think the main reason for it was because the stress and constant concentration required causes a release of lots of chemicals, and leaves you fúcking knackered after playing a match of it

Illkillya · 16-08-2001 3:57pm

Originally posted by The FANJ:
Basically the thought of people playing computer games and then calling it sport really strikes a deep nerve with me.

I'll tell you why it doesn't bother me when people say computer games can be a sport.

A proper athlete will always be athletic. This is a very crucial point because if athletes don’t compete in it, it is not a sport. Being an athlete myself I know I need none of my athlete prowess to play any FPS.

Not all sports are played by "proper athletes" on a professional level. Darren Clarke is Ireland's best golfer. Golf is a sport. He is hardly very athletic.
Darts and Bowling are both sports. Look at all the world champions.. they're huge fat americans. They're not "proper" athletes, but they compete professionally.

I don’t need to draw on my stamina

Try playing hours on end at an important event without losing your concentration for a split second, because at the highest level that would lose the game for you.... stamina is crucial.

my strength is irrelevant

you're implying that people who are not strong can never be good at sports.
your strength is irrelevent in Golf, Darts, 10-pin Bowling, and a load of those weird sports you see on eurosport (curling and stuff).

my hand to eye co ordination is used but not to the extent that some of you would try to indicate.

you're very wrong here. hand to eye co-ordination is not just used... it is what computer games are made of... think about it. Two evenly skilled pro q3 players duelling at Quakecon... one turns a corner unexpectedly and faces the other... who hits first? the one with the better hand to eye co-ordination usually. Without this you will NEVER be a good gamer. It is 100% essential.

I may as well not have any legs because they are not needed at all to play an FPS game.

now you're saying its not a sport because you don't use your legs? um... thousands of wheelchair users would take offense at this i'm sure. Especially after making so much progress in the recognition of wheelchair sports over the last decade.

Compare this to what it takes to play rugby.

No. Rugby is a very physical sport, completely the opposite of q3 and the likes. Don't compare it to rugby, compare it to the less physical sports like those I have already mentioned, and then you will not get ****ed off at people calling it a sport.

I need to be fit, strong I need good co ordination, and I need to be smart around the pitch I need experience to know what to do in any given situation. I know some of these are required in FPS but the ones that are missing are the most crucial.

Fit, Strong, Co-ordination, smart, experience, knowledge.
All bar the first 2 are essential to professional gaming. You say the missing ones are crucial? You're saying you need to be fit and strong to be good at sports. Fitness to a degree is required in any sport to be able to maintain concentration and stuff like that, as in golf, snooker, darts and stuff like that, but they do NOT need to be able to run a mile in 6 minutes. It also varies per person... Darren Clarke and those fat Darts players i'm sure can keep their concentration perfectly without needing to be fit.
Strength as I mentioned above is not necessary.

Unfortunately everybody cannot be good at sports. None of us are born equal. Some are born smarter than others, some or born with the ability to run faster than others and so on.

Your problem is that you're lumping all sports together and embodying them in the form of rugby. This is because you play rugby, and when you think of sport you think of rugby.
Rugby does NOT define all sports. There is such a huge variety there that you cannot lump them all together like that.

So not everybody is going to have the skills to take part in sport. I’m sorry but that’s life. So don’t go looking to carve your little niche in the sporting world by trying to justify computer games as a sport.

This is getting personal... and you're also assuming all the best gamers are no good at sports. Many of the skills required to be the best at computer games are the same as those required to be the best at other sports. I bet Fatality would own most pro rugby players at darts.

I know full well how hard it is to be the best at these games

Obviously, you don't. You showed your ignorance above in saying that hand to eye co-ordination is not as important as people say

People like Fatality would not make it as an Olympic athlete because they don’t have the will to get out and actually work for something.

Rubbish... and I think you know thats true (if not, pls reply and show why Fatality has no willpower).

that does not make these people athlete’s

i agree, it does not make them "proper athletes" as you understand the word.

and it does not make FPS games a sport.

i disagree

I’m going to try and resolve this one more time and see if we can get anywhere

if you really want to get somewhere with this argument, you'll have to see that sports are not represented solely by rugby and the likes. If you decide to reply, please remember that golf is one of the most popular sports in the world.

Cake Fiend · 16-08-2001 4:53pm

Might as well throw some bait into the pond...

As a life-long gamer, I don't count computer games as a sport. I find it hard to believe anyone could. I don't, however, personally count darts, snooker, etc as sports either - in my eye they are 'games'. You could argue that the word 'sport' originally meant 'game', but the modern day meaning is more a physical game, e.g. rugby, soccer, etc. I believe a real athletic sport is one in which you are tested to the limits of your physical capabilities. For this reason, I personally (remember I said personally, noone start giving me **** about popular opinion) don't count the likes of golf as a real sport; to me it's a game - there are physical demands involved, but a golfer wouldn't exactly be streched to their athletic limits.

LegacyUser · 16-08-2001 5:34pm

Ohhhhhhh this again ..... Yes I think it is a sport.....ZzZzzZZzzZzZzZ /me goes back to sleep and curls up to the flames.

Illkillya · 16-08-2001 5:46pm

Originally posted by Sico:
Might as well throw some bait into the pond...

As a life-long gamer, I don't count computer games as a sport. I find it hard to believe anyone could. I don't, however, personally count darts, snooker, etc as sports either - in my eye they are 'games'. You could argue that the word 'sport' originally meant 'game', but the modern day meaning is more a physical game, e.g. rugby, soccer, etc. I believe a real athletic sport is one in which you are tested to the limits of your physical capabilities. For this reason, I personally (remember I said personally, noone start giving me **** about popular opinion) don't count the likes of golf as a real sport; to me it's a game - there are physical demands involved, but a golfer wouldn't exactly be streched to their athletic limits.

i don't think you're wrong sico, I actually agree with you, but i was arguing against Fanj because he was arguing that games weren't sports for all the wrong reason.

There are people like sico who don't see darts and stuff like that as sports, and they won't see comp games as sports.
the ppl who do call those games sports should also call the likes of q3 a sport.

thats what makes this discussion fairly dull, because that is where it ends

the fnj · 17-08-2001 8:43am

OK you used Golf, Darts, and Bowling there.

I really would not consider Dart's and bowling to be sports, golf on the other hand is in the sports bracket but it is pushing towards that grey area.

You claimed that you don't need to be strong to play golf? Have you ever actually played golf or looked at it on the telly.

Tiger Woods is the top golfer in the world at the moment. He is very athletic. He is the head of a new generation of golfers. Look at all the young golfers coming through. Each and every one of them is in shape and would train in the gym. To hit a ball three hundred yards plus takes a combination of power, speed and control. Power comes from your muscles indicating that you have to have a fair bit of strength to hit a ball consistently far.

The reason I keep using rugby is because it's what I play. I also consider it to be one of the finest sports around where a combination of different physical and mental attributes all gets used by any given person.

Also golfers are actually getting outside in the fresh air. They’re walking around and getting a bit of light exercise. I can’t prove this medically not being a doctor or a research scientists but I really feel this is the better alternative to people sitting in a room for hours on end staring at a computer monitor. How in the hell can you call that sport?

The thing that scares me more than anything is in ten to twenty years time when I bringing my first son (this is all assuming I have kids and a son) to register for schools. When I talk to the principal and ask what sports do you play here he will respond with “well we are the current Counter Strike Irish Schools Champions but we also have a strong quake 3 team”. Is that a future you really want?

By calling computer games sports your justifying something that is going to hinder a child’s mental and physical development. It’s a bad enough as it is. I’m already hearing about more and more children who are devolping serious weight problems. Why, because they don’t get enough exercise and there eating junk food. Both parents are working so the kid is playing his plastation games and when his parents come in their too tired to cook something so they go to the Mc Donald’s around the corner. Accepting computer games as sports is effectively giving parents a green light to say well my son is quite the sportsman he is on the schools CS and Quake team. Were going to end up like America at this rate.

You want to call it sports so you can justify what you do. Stop being ashamed to be gamers. I'm a gamer and I don't feel I need to call it anything else to justify my enjoyment of games.

PS Crash thanks for the input, but if you find the topic sssssssssooooooooooo boring why did you bother responding with that very well put point about Z’s or something. Oh yeah get that post count up cause I know how much you love it!

[This message has been edited by The FANJ (edited 17-08-2001).]

Da Bounca · 17-08-2001 1:14pm

fanj,
maybe we should invent a new tournament where you have to do a biathalon before you get to your pc to play, just for you. Then perhaps you may consider it a sport.

Although the definition of sport involves a physical aspect at the moment, that will soon change. Computer games will eventually become a sport, theres nothing you or anyone else can do about it.

I also play rugby, yet i count the likes of quake3 and cs to be sports also. If theres money/competitons to be won, and the activity in question involves great skill and practice, then in my book its a sport.

adnans · 17-08-2001 1:48pm

Computer Gaming will never be a sport unless they invent some kind of technology where you can actually fit a shotgun, a machinegun, granade laucher, a railgun and the BFG on a person and let them loose in an arena. Firstly he/she will need all the athletic skills to jump/run/sidestep (whatever

) and then they will need all their computer skills to set the brightness and adjust the resolution of their Virtual Goggles ver.3000

if that works i'll then call it sport. and who knows, it might even feature Tribes 2 ?!?

adnans

kent brockman: "... and while we're speaking of well educated manner they tend to use low brow expressions like 'oh Yeah' and 'come here a minute'.
homer: "oh yeah!, they think they're better then us. bart, come here a minute!"
bart: "you come here a minute"
homer "oh yeahhh!"

[This message has been edited by adnans (edited 17-08-2001).]

the fnj · 17-08-2001 1:52pm

Originally posted by Da'Bounca:

Although the definition of sport involves a physical aspectat the moment, that will soon change. Computer games will eventually become a sport, theres nothing you or anyone else can do about it.

Oh well that’s fine so by changing the definition of sports you can include computer games. Does that not defeat the purpose? So can I make up a new word for games that I think or sports and don’t allow computer games in.

Athlete’s take part is sports. Computer gamers are not and never will be athletes.

Pepe LeFrits · 17-08-2001 2:01pm

I believe the term is 'cyber-athelete'

Trojan · 17-08-2001 2:11pm

Chess is considered a sport by many.

That messes up the physical argument bigtime.

Al.

Sedulously eschew obfuscatory hyperverbosity and prolixity.

You really should you know.

Da Bounca · 17-08-2001 2:41pm

Oh well that’s fine so by changing the definition of sports you can include computer
games.

Cultures, technology, basically everything changes and advances. Why not the definiton of one word?

Kensai · 17-08-2001 2:53pm

I read the last one of these be TheFANJ, i really think people should ignore this thread, on the last he ignored everyones points against him coming back time after repeating the same tripe.

Illkillya · 17-08-2001 6:14pm

Originally posted by The FANJ:
You want to call it sports so you can justify what you do. Stop being ashamed to be gamers. I'm a gamer and I don't feel I need to call it anything else to justify my enjoyment of games.

Firstly, this is an insult to every serious gamer there is and you're making yourself look like a twat.

I really would not consider Dart's and bowling to be sports, golf on the other hand is in the sports bracket but it is pushing towards that grey area.

Well as i said above, this is where the debate ENDS, because you think that sport requires maximum physical exertion and great strength.

You claimed that you don't need to be strong to play golf? Have you ever actually played golf or looked at it on the telly.

not only that, but I have played it myself many times and my granduncle was one of the best Irish golfers ever back at the start of the last centruy.

Tiger Woods is the top golfer in the world at the moment. He is very athletic. He is the head of a new generation of golfers. Look at all the young golfers coming through. Each and every one of them is in shape and would train in the gym.

Dozens of world class golfers are not in shape, these young ones are determined to be on top of their game, I'm sure if a new generation of quakers took the game seriously enough they would be on special diets to keep themselves fit and on-the-ball to maintain complete concentration, because that is why golfers need to be fit.

To hit a ball three hundred yards plus takes a combination of power, speed and control. Power comes from your muscles indicating that you have to have a fair bit of strength to hit a ball consistently far.

The power doesn't come from your muscles, it comes from your swing. Your strength is irrelevent... its your technique that matters. Obviously, you need some degree of strength to be able to swing a golf club, just like you need to have strength move a mouse.... just about everyone has that potential, and it plays an insignificant part in the game.

The reason I keep using rugby is because it's what I play. I also consider it to be one of the finest sports around where a combination of different physical and mental attributes all gets used by any given person.

I think i remember you telling me that you're a prop. This position relies on strength more than any in any other game I can think of (except weightlifting and stuff like that). You can't understand that there are sports that don't rely on strength at all. Try playing a different sport.

Also golfers are actually getting outside in the fresh air. They’re walking around and getting a bit of light exercise. I can’t prove this medically not being a doctor or a research scientists but I really feel this is the better alternative to people sitting in a room for hours on end staring at a computer monitor.

Because being played outdoors does not make it more of a sport.... only in your view of whats sports are (strength, speed, fitness, maximum physical exertion).

How in the hell can you call that sport?

you think we can't call it a sport because its not played outside in the fresh air?

The thing that scares me more than anything is in ten to twenty years time when I bringing my first son (this is all assuming I have kids and a son) to register for schools. When I talk to the principal and ask what sports do you play here he will respond with “well we are the current Counter Strike Irish Schools Champions but we also have a strong quake 3 team”.

If that scares you then you have a problem.

Is that a future you really want?

That sounds great... I'd love to go to a school that played in school counterstrike tournaments.

By calling computer games sports your justifying something that is going to hinder a child’s mental and physical development.

Not at all. It would only hinder a child's physical development if they played it in insane amounts. Just like weightlifting would wreck your body if you did it too much. And mental development??? In what way does it hinder a child's mental development... you must think computer games are bad for the brain?

It’s a bad enough as it is. I’m already hearing about more and more children who are devolping serious weight problems. Why, because they don’t get enough exercise and there eating junk food. Both parents are working so the kid is playing his plastation games and when his parents come in their too tired to cook something so they go to the Mc Donald’s around the corner. Accepting computer games as sports is effectively giving parents a green light to say well my son is quite the sportsman he is on the schools CS and Quake team.

Whats wrong with that? My son is quite sportsmanlike, he is the world champion Darts player.

Were going to end up like America at this rate.

at what rate? computer games have not been made a sport, in here or america. you're not happy with the fat children in america. that is caused by their backwards society, and if the child didn't have a computer game to enjoy, he would be watching TV all day long... and having seen american TV, THAT could be mentally hindering.

TheFanj,
To me it sounds like you have a problem firstly with overweight people. Also with people who don't play active sports. In your ideal world, everybody would be fit and playing rugby just like you are.
You have always seperated your schoolmates into two categories - the sporty, strong, active ones, and the nerdy, weak or unathletic ones. You think all pro gamers finto the latter category, and you are disgusted by the fact that they can call themselves sports players, thereby coming part of the group that you have worked so hard to remain in.
I'm sure you'll tell me that this isn't the case, but if you do, please cut back on the arrogance and blind ignorance characteristic of your first two posts: "You want to call it sports so you can justify what you do. Stop being ashamed to be gamers." That is the biggest load of bull**** i have read in a long time.
When you said that you didn't consider darts a sport, your post and this thread was effectively over. because as I said before, the discussion ends. However, in your arrogance you never thought to attempt to think of those who do see darts as a sport, and rather than come up with reasons as to why it is a sport, you come up with the stupid remark above.

I think Kensai is right:

I read the last one of these be TheFANJ, i really think people should ignore this thread, on the last he ignored everyones points against him coming back time after repeating the same tripe

please get a clue Fanj

[This message has been edited by Illkillya (edited 17-08-2001).]

DrunkLeprachaun · 17-08-2001 7:28pm

How about if it was a Special Olympic Sport?

If there's one thing I hate, it's people.

Shinji · 17-08-2001 8:23pm

Just play the damn games and have a laugh. Anyone worrying about whether it's a "sport" or not has too much f*cking free time.

OConnor · 17-08-2001 8:44pm

FanJ:
would you except Paintball as a sport?
Its outdoor, requires physical effort/determination yada yada yada. Its a lot of fun too.
You dont consider eg. Counterstrike a sport:
Its indoor doesnt require physical effort , and it is also a lot of fun.

They are quite similar however:
shoot the opposition, teamwork is vital,
Objectives eg. Capture the Flag, consentration, hand/eye cooirdination, you even play in rounds and get to come back to life

Now.. would you Consider War to be a sport?
Maybe its the ultimate sport ...

Dustaz · 18-08-2001 3:07am

TheFanJ, Do you consider WWF to be a sport? These athletes have what you describe in spades. Since theres no competion in it it cant be a sport.
I dont consider gaming to be a sport, but you havent put forward a convincing argument against it. Shooting is a sport, its is DEFINITLY a sport, but wheres the athletic ability in pulling a trigger?
It seems that if someone doesnt play rugby, thier not a sportsman. Sorry mate, but rugby is not the be all and end all of sports. In fact, i would be of the opionon that rugby lacks a lot of the skill that other sports have and is over reliant on physical ability.
To be honest id prefer a school that played counter strike than a school that advocated the use of creatine as a lot of schools these days. Think about the fact that rugby is responsible for instilling a socially acceptable form of drug abuse before you accuse people of being insecure of thier pastimes.

SantaHoe · 18-08-2001 4:22am

Originally posted by Dustaz:
Do you consider WWF to be a sport? These athletes have what you describe in spades.

I'd consider Wrestling to be a sport of course, but WWF isn't really wrestling is it?
No more than the cast of ER are real doctors.
Maybe if WWF wasn't completely 'fixed', and the unknown guy actually had a chance of defeating the popular all-American bag of meat and steroids... then maybe, just maybe it could be a sport.
It's a TV show, and designed for ratings, which ironically - is why it's so sh!te to watch.

As for FPS-games becoming a sport?
I reckon it has a lot of sport-like qualities, but I can't see it being taken seriously as an Olympic sport for a good while to come.
Anyway, who cares if it's accepted by the masses as a 'real sport'... tourneys will still happen, games will still be a highly competitive activity.
But in five years, who knows what gaming will become...?

the fnj · 18-08-2001 5:37pm

Originally posted by Illkillya:

you are disgusted by the fact that they can call themselves sports players, thereby coming part of the group that you have worked so hard to remain in.

Absolutely spot on. I don’t want professional computer gamers to be able to think that he is just as valid a sportsman as I am.

The point you all seem to shy from or try to justify with “well in this sport they only do this” is that athlete’s compete in sports. Sitting at a desk moving a mouse and pressing keys is not athletic.

One thing I notice about any really good sportsman is that they are generally very good at any sport they try and play. Why, because basic fundamentals carry over in every sport. Balance, co ordination and fitness are required in most sports. I know of course you will try and justify computer games as sports by comparing to things like darts and snooker. Why not pick a sport like soccer or rugby and use that to base your comparisons.

From a general health point of view nobody can honestly try and tell me that they believe that playing computer games for eight hours plus a day is healthy.

In your ideal world, everybody would be fit

Is that such a bad thing?

PS I’m a second row not a prop

Kensai · 18-08-2001 6:05pm

Let me be extremely arrogant and bigotted.

Rugby is for gays.
Gays are subhuman.
A "sport" for gays shouldnt be called a sport because it involves gay people.

Exchange overweight with gays and thats your whole argument.

[This message has been edited by Kensai (edited 18-08-2001).]

havok* · 18-08-2001 6:26pm

Tom, u might as well just set up a reply script, no matter what any1 sez u just reply with the same ****.

Please lock this thread monty, tiz doing me head in...

PHB · 18-08-2001 7:08pm

I suppose using reflexes and hand eye coordination is nothing to do with sport. Example Ice Hockey, as a goaly, all you do is stand in the goal having amazing reflexes and hand eye co-ordination and your set.

I use that example because possibly the best player in the world (Heaton) is off to NHL next year to be a ice hockey goaly.
I wouldn't use the CPL as a good example of gaming being a sport. But I think the amount of effort put into it is the same as a person who plays snooker for 10hrs a day. If they don't enjoy it that's their pro-ogitive if they do it doesn't make it any less of a job.

Renton · 18-08-2001 7:25pm

Originally posted by The FANJ:
The point you all seem to shy from or try to justify with “well in this sport they only do this” is that athlete’s compete in sports. Sitting at a desk moving a mouse and pressing keys is not athletic.

Not all sports are athletic. I think plenty of examples have already been shown.

One thing I notice about any really good sportsman is that they are generally very good at any sport they try and play. Why, because basic fundamentals carry over in every sport. Balance, co ordination and fitness are required in most sports.

Those sort of things carry over to other sports of similar styles. Would being a good footballer make you more likely to be a good snooker player? I doubt it.

I know of course you will try and justify computer games as sports by comparing to things like darts and snooker. Why not pick a sport like soccer or rugby and use that to base your comparisons.

Because there are different types of sports, not all of them involve using extreme physical force or perfect hand-to-eye coordination.

From a general health point of view nobody can honestly try and tell me that they believe that playing computer games for eight hours plus a day is healthy.

A very large number of sports dont help your health in anyway whatosever. Sports don't have to make you healthy to be classified as a sport.

Blargh - posted by kaids under Rentons login.

[This message has been edited by Renton (edited 18-08-2001).]

Clintons Cat · 20-08-2001 5:52am

one problem with classifying FPS as sports would be the enviroment in which the physical exertions (i.e rapid eye hand co ordination and rapid finger twitching) manifest themselves.The enviroment would be prone to manipulation by external influences such as those modern day sports bo***men the International Gambling Cartels.
A split second delay on a mouses responses could turn an average player into a world champion.Not to mention the dreaded scourge of the FPS mouse lint.Perhaps There is to much of an element of luck involved in FPS as they stand for them to qualify as a sport,perhaps they should be pigeonholed with Games of chance like Pontoon and Krapps.
Plaudits to Fanj for his dogged persistance of the theme.

Jak · 20-08-2001 7:58am

Only read the top few posts as I'm pushed for time, but ...

People who play computer games can be classed as committed, skilled and talented.

In no sense whatsoever can they be classed as athletes. I enjoy games etc, but I would never substitute them for proper training and try to pass myself off as an athlete.

This is my opinion on it, but I would caution anyone against mentioning they are a 'Cyber athlete' down the pub ...

the fnj · 20-08-2001 1:04pm

Just a couple things that have come to mind recently.

Firstly where is the line drawn? I’m told Counter Strike and Quake or sports but what about other games? Is playing Fifa a sport? So who decides whats a computer game and whats a sport. If someone is the world champion Fifa player are they an athlete or is it only for elitist games like Counter Strike and Quake.

Another thing I have to question. In sport you see people push limit’s to do something. Examples would be a footballer sprinting faster than he has ever done before to get back and make that last gasp tackle. Similar scenario’s can be applied to all sports. Computer games are too controlled and environment. In every sport bizarre things happen from time to time. Like a ball seeming to do the impossible and swerve one way then the other. In a computer games the random element is still controlled by a computer so how random is it really? This is another crucial point because a computer gamer will never do the impossible because a computer won’t allow the impossible to happen. It happens in the real world, rarely but it still happens.

OConnor · 20-08-2001 5:52pm

You havent seen your entire Terrorist team wiped out during an ECO (economy) round while you lag,unlag and with only the default pistol , sneak round and wipe out the enemy team :P
thats making the extra "push".
Of course, that doesnt happen very often, but there are very few displays of true sportsmanship in eg. Football these days..

havok* · 20-08-2001 6:56pm

Originally posted by The FANJ:

In sport you see people push limit’s to do something. Examples would be a footballer sprinting faster than he has ever done before to get back and make that last gasp tackle

Tom, watch the Lakerman vs Fatality final in one of the last cpls (germany afiak) ,
Watch the way fat comes back, purely animal.
This is just one example.

On your last point, I think u mean Improboble rather then impossible, and it happens in game abit too (as u well know)
Granted theres not as a degree of chaos as u would get in the real world but its a good fit.

[This message has been edited by havok* (edited 20-08-2001).]

the fnj · 20-08-2001 10:28pm

Everything he did was completely possible and could be done again. He just played to almost perfection. I'm talking about things that are simply completely impossible that could never be done again.

Also please respond to my point about what is the line between a computer game that is a sport and one that is just a game.

havok* · 21-08-2001 12:26pm

Originally posted by The FANJ:
I'm talking about things that are simply completely impossible that could never be done again.

er?
If its completely impossible it could'nd have possible happened in the first place. As i said b4, u mean improbable not impossible.

The "line" of weather a game is a sport or not i would place @ how it is played competivley. ie, In well organized tournaments / leagues ect.

Tbh, What you most have difined in your previous posts of what you consider sports actully falls into the catagory of Field Sports, i.e rugby, soccer ect.

You also Said b4 that ppl good @ sports are normally good @ other sports. What u really ment was there good @ similer sports, Some-one good @ rugby probobly would'nd be half bad @ football. I doubt however he'd be any use @ snooker.
I doubt Fatality would'nd be half bad @ counter strike or darts even for that matter.

In my view Any game that is played higly competivly in an orginized manner is a sport.

the fnj · 21-08-2001 1:12pm

So Fifa would be a sport if people played it for eight hours a day and had big tournaments in it.

Now this is where I get really confused Neil.

Soccer is a sport. Absolutely no arguments there. Fifa is a soccer computer game. Using your logic not mine could I claim to be a really talented footballer if I was the world champion Fifa player?

Pepe LeFrits · 21-08-2001 2:52pm

If FIFA was extremely competitive it could nearly be considered as much of a 'sport' as Q3 or CS. The main difference in games of its type is that it is nearly completely controlled by the AI, with the player only temporarily taking control of a player near the ball.

the fnj · 21-08-2001 3:38pm

Thats not my point. My point is if it was played as seriously as CS would it then be a sport?

Shiminay · 21-08-2001 4:10pm

Originally posted by havok*:
In my view Any game that is played higly competivly in an orginized manner is a sport.

PLYD Neil - I think this sums it up perfectly.

I don't agree with the "Athlete" title, but categorising games played at the levels a lot of us (and you yourself Tom) do as sports is fair.

I've sat down with people who play Quake and then I show them how I play. They are usually stunned and amazed and the completly different game it is and can be - same can be said for you and I having a kick about and then watching a pro soccer match.

All the best!
Dav
@B^)
So Bob Hoskins was about to roll a spliff when in walks Dana with her 3 foot Bong
[honey i] violated [the kids]
When the Beefy King arrives, I shall be paying homage with Puunack The Receiver in a haze of green curry.

Xterminator · 21-08-2001 4:18pm

I've read the thread, and i see the different opinions, but here is mine.

Shooting (targets) is an olympic sport.

The athlete uses hand eye co-ordination to track the target, the athlete users their steady hand to pull the lever (trigger) which causes the bullet to fire.

This is repeated a set no of times, according to the rules, until there is a winner.

Does this sound familiar? It could be any game player.

FFS now synchronised swimming is an olympic sport!

I know some sports are physical, I played rugby, I boxed, I played GAA.
There is a arguement for ifferentialting between a rugby player, and a CS player, but that arguement also discredits other accepted sports.

"Man, you go through life, you try to be nice to people, you struggle against the urge to punch ‘em in the face, and for what?! For some pimply little puke to treat you like dirt unless you're on a team. Well I'm better than dirt ... well most kinds of dirt. I mean, not that fancy, store-bought dirt. That stuff’s loaded with nutrients. I …I can't compete with that stuff."
-Moe Szyslak

the fnj · 22-08-2001 9:36am

Originally posted by havok*:
In my view Any game that is played higly competivly in an orginized manner is a sport.

OK I see the point your trying to make there but as I have pointed out where does that leave a game like Fifa? If I was to play for eight hours a day and enter big tournaments and play others in games of Fifa does that make it a sport and does that make me a footballer?

I’m playing a soccer match on a computer, that’s a sport I must be a legendary footballer!

Also the point about shooting in the Olympics would only apply to FPS games making other points such as “they play for hours a day” useless in this discussion.

So is it only FPS games that can be considered sport then? If thats the case are you telling me that people who play in Red Alert competitions are less than FPS gamers?

Cyber Athletes Revisited!

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